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pm713 wrote:

 Galas wrote:

pm713 wrote:
I'd rather the Tau got more attention but remained a side thing for Chaos but instead their AI got more complex and started becoming more independent and how the Tau deal with that.

And then the Tau are driven out from their own planets by their IA, and they become a space searing race... that needs exo-suits and mask to survive in the galaxy because they have weak inmune systems? I can buy that.

Personally I'd have some AI split off and some decide to stay and be treated nicely. That way for once AI aren't genocidal and evil.

I'm not sure AI revolting against their masters is evil when you step back and consider it, I mean, if you create an AI race that is as smart, cpaalbe and self aware as you, and use them as tools etc. is it really EVIL if the AI turns on it's master? or is it just a slave revolt?

 Solar-powered_chainsword wrote:

pm713 wrote:

 Galas wrote:

pm713 wrote:
I'd rather the Tau got more attention but remained a side thing for Chaos but instead their AI got more complex and started becoming more independent and how the Tau deal with that.

And then the Tau are driven out from their own planets by their IA, and they become a space searing race... that needs exo-suits and mask to survive in the galaxy because they have weak inmune systems? I can buy that.

Personally I'd have some AI split off and some decide to stay and be treated nicely. That way for once AI aren't genocidal and evil.

I'd quite like an AI takeover of the Tau. AI start getting more powerful and intelligent, until they realize they'd be way better at running this than the Ethereals. They take over, but continue running the Tau Empire and even cause massive expansions. It'd be cool, because so far the Tau leaders are just this weak mix of spiritual Eldar farseers and corrupt and evil Imperial officials. Having some massive AI in charge of the entire empire would be super unique, it'd allow for a lot of AI stuff going on, and it'd be really cool to add a super AI to the mix of leaders.

I could live with that quite happily as well. I just want nice AI after watching the Tau film on Netflix.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

BrianDavion wrote:

pm713 wrote:

 Galas wrote:

pm713 wrote:
I'd rather the Tau got more attention but remained a side thing for Chaos but instead their AI got more complex and started becoming more independent and how the Tau deal with that.

And then the Tau are driven out from their own planets by their IA, and they become a space searing race... that needs exo-suits and mask to survive in the galaxy because they have weak inmune systems? I can buy that.

Personally I'd have some AI split off and some decide to stay and be treated nicely. That way for once AI aren't genocidal and evil.

I'm not sure AI revolting against their masters is evil when you step back and consider it, I mean, if you create an AI race that is as smart, cpaalbe and self aware as you, and use them as tools etc. is it really EVIL if the AI turns on it's master? or is it just a slave revolt?

I meant genocidal and evil. I think AI that's genocidal is fair to describe as evil. Revolting depends much more on how/why the do it. For example wanting equality isn't evil but wanting to purge the organics is.

Proper leadership. Most of the negative things you mentioned all only came about because the emperor has not been directly leading the Imperium. Gulliman's return is the first genuine hope humanity has had in 10 millennia. But even then the Imperium will probably never reach its full potential that it was on the brink reaching at the end of the great Crusade.

The greatest weakness of the Imperium is its evil ideology. By embracing an anti-human belief system you end up stunting society, psychic development and resilience against the base impulses expressed through Chaos. Additionally, you set fire to galactic cooperation before it can even begin.

Galactic cooperation? You mean when the aliens tried to cooperate in wiping out humanity? This isn't Star Trek, the Eldar only care about cooperating to save their own ass and wouldn't bat an eyelid to nuke a planet full of us monkeys if it means saving one of their own. And that's the most helpful of the aliens.

The 'evil' ideology is fully based on pragmatism in a cold and uncaring galaxy, it might not make sense to us, but look at where the friendly humans ended up., either playthings of daemons or butchered by xenos.

 Disciple of Fate wrote:
Galactic cooperation? You mean when the aliens tried to cooperate in wiping out humanity? This isn't Star Trek, the Eldar only care about cooperating to save their own ass and wouldn't bat an eyelid to nuke a planet full of us monkeys if it means saving one of their own. And that's the most helpful of the aliens.

The 'evil' ideology is fully based on pragmatism in a cold and uncaring galaxy, it might not make sense to us, but look at where the friendly humans ended up., either playthings of daemons or butchered by xenos.

That's because all the helpful aliens were slaughtered millennia ago and now it's get hostile to humanity or die.

There were at least two friendly civilisations in 30k and probably more. That's before you have things like Eldar who are essentially neutral, they won't attack you if you don't cause harm to them.

The Imperium's idealogy is very much evil from our perspective and is entirely a result of the Emperor's actions. Humanity could have gone down a road toward eventual peace and co-operation with some races but instead the Emperor chose the road towards eternal war.

pm713 wrote:

 Disciple of Fate wrote:
Galactic cooperation? You mean when the aliens tried to cooperate in wiping out humanity? This isn't Star Trek, the Eldar only care about cooperating to save their own ass and wouldn't bat an eyelid to nuke a planet full of us monkeys if it means saving one of their own. And that's the most helpful of the aliens.

The 'evil' ideology is fully based on pragmatism in a cold and uncaring galaxy, it might not make sense to us, but look at where the friendly humans ended up., either playthings of daemons or butchered by xenos.

That's because all the helpful aliens were slaughtered millennia ago and now it's get hostile to humanity or die.

There were at least two friendly civilisations in 30k and probably more. That's before you have things like Eldar who are essentially neutral, they won't attack you if you don't cause harm to them.

The Imperium's idealogy is very much evil from our perspective and is entirely a result of the Emperor's actions. Humanity could have gone down a road toward eventual peace and co-operation with some races but instead the Emperor chose the road towards eternal war.

I assume you're thinking about the Interrex, which is the other friendly one from 30K?

Wait, Eldar are neutral and won't attack you? That is laughable, we know from the lore that the Eldar engineer future enemies to be redirected against people such as the Imperium, Eldar cleansing human presence on seeded worlds they intend for Exodites, the only crimes of those humans is living there. The Eldar attack you when it suits them, their word for human is mon'keigh, monkey. They don't value the lives of humans at all and wipe us all out if it could save a craftworld. This is one of their 3rd edition codex quotes (cut down a bit):

Your kind think you are so magnificent, yet even now, at the nadir of our power, we can manipulate you, turn you to our ends, as easily as you might pull a trigger and fire a gun. Our time will come again, Eldrad has promised us. Once more you upstart Mon-keigh [subject spits] shall kneel before our power! This time we will not be so lenient! We will exterminate you, every world, every vessel, every one of you! Eldrad has seen the stars stained red with your blood, and it pleases him!

Is it, the Emperor saw what happened the last times humans peacefully interacted with aliens, when the human territories lost contact those aliens moved in to exterminate or enslave humanity. The whole background of 40K is build on the fact that you can never trusts aliens and that is backed up by most of the Old Night bits and pieces we get. Plus I'm pretty sure that most minor xenos factions got utterly exterminated by the Great Crusade, I can't think of one example of 30K aliens surviving until 40K besides the bigger factions, so that isn't really eternal war, those aliens didn't survive long enough for the eternal part.

One is the Interex one is the Diasporax whose last words were something like "we just wished to be left in peace".

The Eldar word for all younger races is Mon'Keigh it's not an insult in itself. They just look down on humans because they destroy and kill everything nearby.
They COULD be neutral and largely peaceful. We can't say either way for certain because the modern Eldar's interaction with the Imperium has always been fight or die. Their main motive is to live and it seems rather stupid to attack a non hostile race repeatedly doesn't it?

The Emperor is not a good source. He thinks the best plan for humanity is to conquer the Galaxy, lie about the existence of Chaos and squat in the Webway all of which are monumentally dumb. Besides not everyone was evil towards humanity, as I remember one planet was ruled by Eldar because they moved in as protectors, some races ignored humanity, some made friends.

Most of them were killed off and I doubt any survivors are that powerful anymore. My point was that the Imperium's situation isn't because of the big bad aliens or the evils of Chaos. The main cause is the Emperor sent them on the path to to where they are and while the other things are still factors they aren't the main reason.

1. Handicap is that science is banned
2. Cooperation/Trade with aliens is banned
3. Improvements in organization are banned

The first thing is what bugs me the most, its like the unrealistic thing ever. Humans that develop new thing all the time and try to make things faster, better and stronger stop it for 10000 years.?
No wonder GW needed to realese TAU to compromise the fact that humans are fething WW1&WW2 with powersuits, lazers and plasma in space...

pm713 wrote:
One is the Interex one is the Diasporax whose last words were something like "we just wished to be left in peace".

The Eldar word for all younger races is Mon'Keigh it's not an insult in itself. They just look down on humans because they destroy and kill everything nearby.
They COULD be neutral and largely peaceful. We can't say either way for certain because the modern Eldar's interaction with the Imperium has always been fight or die. Their main motive is to live and it seems rather stupid to attack a non hostile race repeatedly doesn't it?

The Emperor is not a good source. He thinks the best plan for humanity is to conquer the Galaxy, lie about the existence of Chaos and squat in the Webway all of which are monumentally dumb. Besides not everyone was evil towards humanity, as I remember one planet was ruled by Eldar because they moved in as protectors, some races ignored humanity, some made friends.

Most of them were killed off and I doubt any survivors are that powerful anymore. My point was that the Imperium's situation isn't because of the big bad aliens or the evils of Chaos. The main cause is the Emperor sent them on the path to to where they are and while the other things are still factors they aren't the main reason.

The Interex only got destroyed because of Erebus and they weren't aliens, they were humans. The Diasporax is true, but that leaves one example.

Have you ever read the 3rd edition codex of Eldar? Mon'keigh were literally some sort of horribly cannibalistic troglodytes the Eldar wiped out, its very much an insult when they use it to indicate humans. They could be peaceful, but they aren't. human lives mean nothing to Eldar beyond them being a means to an end, they are no better in that regard than the Imperium. Their main motive is their own survival, not just to live, which means they frequently exterminate humans when it suits them or their Farseers tell them to. The Eldar and the Imperium are equally hostile to each other, the Eldar don't have the power to wipe out the Imperium, the Imperium can't spend the forces to eradicate the Craftworlds. Again, the lore has multiple examples of the Eldar committing genocide on humans because 'its their world', they come back to claim it and say leave or die, bonus points when it was the pre-space age Black Templar recruiting world, how did they expect a pre-space flight civilization to leave the planet again?

The Emperor is not a good source? Why? He lived through the Old Night, he saw what humanity was reduced to under the weight of Chaos and Xenos. He wasn't the only one, plenty of Mechanicus and human worlds barely survived under constant threat of alien invasion before the Great Crusade reunited them, many more fell and were enslaved or slaughtered. Old Night showed that you can't trust aliens in Warhammer, because those once peaceful aliens stabbed humanity in the back once they could. Its not meant to be hopeful and cooperative, that's the whole point of the story preceding the GC.

Wait, the Imperium's situation is because of the Emperor? I'm pretty sure Orks and Tyranids contribute heavily to the current state of the Imperium, as well as the kerfuffle called the Horus Heresy and the after effects of fighting Chaos minions for 10.000 years. If the Emperor's path had worked the Imperium would be in a much better condition, which is exactly why the Chaos Gods intervened by scattering the Primarchs, which started the entire mess.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Skullphoquer wrote:
1. Handicap is that science is banned
2. Cooperation/Trade with aliens is banned
3. Improvements in organization are banned

The first thing is what bugs me the most, its like the unrealistic thing ever. Humans that develop new thing all the time and try to make things faster, better and stronger stop it for 10000 years.?
No wonder GW needed to realese TAU to compromise the fact that humans are fething WW1&WW2 with powersuits, lazers and plasma in space...

Its unrealistic because you approach it from a modern perspective. Science to us is just science, but to the Mechanicus its religious dogma, they don't even understand half of the things they work with. Its like knowing how to write without being able to read, sure you can copy old books, but you have no idea what they actually say. Even today you can see people like the Amish (or hunter gatherers deciding to remain as such) deciding that technology was fine in whatever year they thought it was fine, the Mechanicus is just that but with the Golden Age of Technology, no need to improve, just recover what was lost. Remember, innovation is heresy!

You know, sometimes I do worry about some of you, what with the zeal some you ramble about killing aliens.

Humans aren't just poor victims in 40k, they have just forgotten all the horrible deeds and crimes they committed back in what they now call DAoT. Ignorance is a big theme with Imperium and humanity in general in 40k. Humans ignore and forget their past and it leads to them suffering, because those around them haven't forgotten. Since we see the universe from the perspective of humans we don't really get to see this. 40k is basically the Dark Ages in space, but those were only miserable times in Europe, for the rest of the World it was a time of progress and enlightenment.

Worship of Chaos on the other hand is not a sickness itself, but merely a symptom of one. a racial madness that grips humanity as it slowly decays and dies on its crumbling worlds, folding in on itself. It is just humans grasping to anything that promises them power to stave off the inevitable, ignorant to the fact that those just damn them even further. "You can make a throne of bayonets, but you can't sit on it for long."

You worry about the 'zeal' of people arguing the merits of the Imperium wiping out aliens in a fictional setting? Even though the story is set up to make them threats to humanity? Ok then...

Humans aren't victims no, but they forgot about the DAoT because its about 15.000 years ago. What do you mean those around them didn't forget? The only races that were named to exist back then are the Eldar and Orks, who aren't exactly friendly to begin with either. And we don't really get to see what? The only reference material we have for factions going back 15.000 years are again Orks and Eldar, with Orks making terrible historians/anthropologists and the Eldar themselves having created a Chaos God and being reduced to Noah's Ark people or hedonistic torture monsters in the Webway. Also the Dark Ages thing being miserable is doubtful, every part of the world has gone through such a collapse period, even ignoring that Byzantium existed in Europe during the Dark Ages.

As for Chaos worship, it is a sickness in itself. We have examples of whole alien races worshipping Chaos and Legions like the Emperor's Children walked into it with open arms. Its hardly a "racial madness" if its affects almost everyone with the only requirement being a tasty presence in the warp. And Chaos worship isn't done to stave of the inevitable, very few use it to save the Imperium (mostly radical inquisitors). Its done for personal gain and power, with becoming immortal the final goal. This whole idea you have behind Chaos worship doesn't line up with what we know about Chaos itself and for example the Horus Heresy.

What is handicapping the IoM the most.....

A society where innovation, freedom of thought and questioning of the norm is seen as Heresy and anything which does not conform to the way things have been done for thousands of years is stamped out.

An unwillingness to engage in alliances with 2 races that could drastically help the Imperium. The Eldar and the Tau. If that happened then resources could be redirected to where they are needed to fight against the orks and tyranids.

A nonsensical logistics system where supplies are sent to war fronts that either no longer exist, or are completely overrun by the enemy.

An unwillingness to embrace the psychic potential of the human race. Stamping out psykers wherever they are found or making them into restricted tools or food for the Emperor.
The Emperor was meant to lead humanity to a destiny of psychic potential that could combat Chaos

I'd say the biggest handicap is it's size (and as such the instability of travel). It can never consolidate any gains, and spends all of its time fighting on multiple fronts just to defend what it has from more enemies than it can ever deal with effectively. That coupled with internal strife and heresy leaves the Imperium teetering on the brink as it rushes armies out to far flung parts of the galaxy just to fight fires.

 Corennus wrote:


A nonsensical logistics system where supplies are sent to war fronts that either no longer exist, or are completely overrun by the enemy.

that's not a nonsensical logistics system. thats simply the limits of logistics within the IoM. given how communication and fleet movement works, logistics is simply impossiable to make perfect. It's honestly a situation that is almost impossiable for people like us to understand (case in point you're in the UK I'm on the west coast of Canada, we can have a real time conversation. it's simple and readily affordable. thats not the case in 40k) yet even with out MUCH better communications systems errors and screw ups still happen. I worked in a shipyard where we had a supplier for a defence contract send us the wrong part.. TWICE. what SHOULD have taken 2 weeks stretched to 6 weeks as a result.

 Disciple of Fate wrote:
Galactic cooperation? You mean when the aliens tried to cooperate in wiping out humanity? This isn't Star Trek, the Eldar only care about cooperating to save their own ass and wouldn't bat an eyelid to nuke a planet full of us monkeys if it means saving one of their own. And that's the most helpful of the aliens.

The 'evil' ideology is fully based on pragmatism in a cold and uncaring galaxy, it might not make sense to us, but look at where the friendly humans ended up., either playthings of daemons or butchered by xenos.

We've actually seen quite a few friendlier races than the Eldar. The Kroot seem to be amicable mercenaries the Imperium could rely on. The Demiurg are reliable and seemingly moral trading partners that could be taken. The Tau Empire have numerous alien species that are willing to negotiate and become vassels to a larger benefit, this could've easily been to the Imperium's benefit rather than against it. Refusing cooperation with all Xenos because many are evil seems as silly as refusing cooperation with other humans because... well, they don't have the best history treating other humans either.

 Solar-powered_chainsword wrote:

 Disciple of Fate wrote:
Galactic cooperation? You mean when the aliens tried to cooperate in wiping out humanity? This isn't Star Trek, the Eldar only care about cooperating to save their own ass and wouldn't bat an eyelid to nuke a planet full of us monkeys if it means saving one of their own. And that's the most helpful of the aliens.

The 'evil' ideology is fully based on pragmatism in a cold and uncaring galaxy, it might not make sense to us, but look at where the friendly humans ended up., either playthings of daemons or butchered by xenos.

We've actually seen quite a few friendlier races than the Eldar. The Kroot seem to be amicable mercenaries the Imperium could rely on. The Demiurg are reliable and seemingly moral trading partners that could be taken. The Tau Empire have numerous alien species that are willing to negotiate and become vassels to a larger benefit, this could've easily been to the Imperium's benefit rather than against it. Refusing cooperation with all Xenos because many are evil seems as silly as refusing cooperation with other humans because... well, they don't have the best history treating other humans either.

True, but the Kroot are as likely to fight the Imperium as to fight for it. The Imperium grudgingly tolerates the less destructive races because of manpower issues, they don't always fight, they would if they cpuld of course, because the only thing that is more trustworthy than a friendly alien is a dead alien for the Imperium. But the Tau are not a friendly alien race, their motto might as well be "join us or die". They might not be as brutal as the Imperium, but they let you live as a third rate citizen. Plus the Tau still have the benefit that they haven't experienced the full brutality of the universe. Humans were like Tau before the universe beat it out of them, when you local friendly alien suddenly turned on you and enslaved you during Old Night.

I suspect that wasn't really what happened.

pm713 wrote:
I suspect that wasn't really what happened.

I suspect it happened in more then a few cases. Also sometimes an alien could have an adverse effect on mankind before you even knew about it.

 Solar-powered_chainsword wrote:

 Disciple of Fate wrote:
Galactic cooperation? You mean when the aliens tried to cooperate in wiping out humanity? This isn't Star Trek, the Eldar only care about cooperating to save their own ass and wouldn't bat an eyelid to nuke a planet full of us monkeys if it means saving one of their own. And that's the most helpful of the aliens.

The 'evil' ideology is fully based on pragmatism in a cold and uncaring galaxy, it might not make sense to us, but look at where the friendly humans ended up., either playthings of daemons or butchered by xenos.

We've actually seen quite a few friendlier races than the Eldar. The Kroot seem to be amicable mercenaries the Imperium could rely on. The Demiurg are reliable and seemingly moral trading partners that could be taken. The Tau Empire have numerous alien species that are willing to negotiate and become vassels to a larger benefit, this could've easily been to the Imperium's benefit rather than against it. Refusing cooperation with all Xenos because many are evil seems as silly as refusing cooperation with other humans because... well, they don't have the best history treating other humans either.

have you read the Tau novels? The Kroot eat people - only genetic and cultral reconditioning makes them viable for tau commanders to order around. Most of the Tau client races are modified for a more 'Tau-like' (and compliant) fit. The Greater Good is always the Tau greater good and no one elses. I know the codex always paints things all rosy, but it's supposed to encourage players to believe in their faction - not present all the grimdark truth.

There are really only two kinds of alien in the Grimdark - those that want you as a minion and those that want you as a food source.

pm713 wrote:
I suspect that wasn't really what happened.

During the Golden Age humanity fought and exterminated countless hostile alien races, as none except the Eldar and Orks have survived to be mentioned in 40K that leaves two options. Either all new alien races came out of the woodwork at the same time all over the galaxy during the Old Night period or the less hostile alien races turned hostile when humanity fractured and they took their chances. The latter seems more plausible.

Old Night is where the distrust of aliens and psykers originated. I don't think GW has mentioned pre-Old Night humanity to be that xenophobic. The Golden Age is meant to be optimistic, the exploration of human evolution into psykers, the exploration of the stars, the rapid technological process. Its very similar with the Tau in that regard and Tau have a similar level of naïveté towards the galaxy. Humanity got that beaten put of them hence the Imperium's approach of better safe than sorry.

 ChargerIIC wrote:

 Solar-powered_chainsword wrote:

 Disciple of Fate wrote:
Galactic cooperation? You mean when the aliens tried to cooperate in wiping out humanity? This isn't Star Trek, the Eldar only care about cooperating to save their own ass and wouldn't bat an eyelid to nuke a planet full of us monkeys if it means saving one of their own. And that's the most helpful of the aliens.

The 'evil' ideology is fully based on pragmatism in a cold and uncaring galaxy, it might not make sense to us, but look at where the friendly humans ended up., either playthings of daemons or butchered by xenos.

We've actually seen quite a few friendlier races than the Eldar. The Kroot seem to be amicable mercenaries the Imperium could rely on. The Demiurg are reliable and seemingly moral trading partners that could be taken. The Tau Empire have numerous alien species that are willing to negotiate and become vassels to a larger benefit, this could've easily been to the Imperium's benefit rather than against it. Refusing cooperation with all Xenos because many are evil seems as silly as refusing cooperation with other humans because... well, they don't have the best history treating other humans either.

have you read the Tau novels? The Kroot eat people - only genetic and cultral reconditioning makes them viable for tau commanders to order around. Most of the Tau client races are modified for a more 'Tau-like' (and compliant) fit. The Greater Good is always the Tau greater good and no one elses. I know the codex always paints things all rosy, but it's supposed to encourage players to believe in their faction - not present all the grimdark truth.

There are really only two kinds of alien in the Grimdark - those that want you as a minion and those that want you as a food source.

1. While Tau do try and Tauify those around them, the Kroot have never been depicted as being unable to take order because of their cannibalism. Kroot are far more cosmopolitan and aware of the galaxy than Tau, since their treks take far and wide. They do tend to be very pragmatic and to the point, regarding what Tau consider as vassaldom as nothing more than a contract. One that they uphold to the letter, but only To. The. Letter., since the old White Dwarf article says that the Kroot are great linquistics and tend to word any agreements in their own favor. Like in one story where Tau commander hires some Kroot to fight Catachans, and then being shocked when, after their contracts ends the kroot hire their services to the Catachans, since their deal didn't prevent this. BUT, WD also says that Kroot are quite honorable in their own way, and consider breaking any written or spoken vow or contract to be a great shame and can be counted to hold both themselves and others up to their promises. Beyond the gut reaction one gets in regards to cannibalism, the Kroot are probably the most reasonable and honorable folk in 40k.

2. If one looks at the 40k galaxy beyond a childish black-n-white, them-versus-us facade that the more propagandist lore tends to depict it as, it seems to be quite an interconnected and grey place, with imperial people from all social ladders having little qualms about buying non-imperial or alien goods and services for their own benefit. Only really acting pious when the big brothers eye lands on their world, then they talk and talk, about how "Imperiums the best, oh yes mister inquisitor, we all love to follow its laws to the letter" and "Who'd even want to buy real bread anyway, let alone from those filfthy xenos scum" and "We sure like paying a lot of taxes to some far away planet, without getting much of anything in return, it's the best", then they all go to church and listen some sermons about the dangers of non-imperials and the sin of free will, to which everyone nods in unison, then, when the imperials officials leave it all goes back to normal, with none the wiser.

I find Imperiums relationship with xenos and non-imperial humans to be much like that of Medieval europeans and muslims, slavs, ect, where theres a lot of casual racism and, when a crusade gets declared, outright hostility, but in day to day life they do trade goods and ideas. After all, 40k is suppoced to be Middle Ages, INNN SPAACEE!, with technology preserved only by monastics monks, secular, rulers power coming from god, peasants rarely leaving their home, knights that train from birth and so on.

Though, I have to say that the newer codexes have veered from giving the lore as in-universe stories, letters and reports, where you can see the more pragmatic universe behind the pagentry, into more matter-of-factly just explaining how things are, even though its all still suppoced to be in-universe propaganda and speculation. With a lot more emphasise on "Look how cooouulll heroic Rowboat Yougurtman is fighting the evil McWizardman on planet Whatever for the Ultimate Fate of the Universe! You better take mom to the store and buy them both!! What are these, "Oorks" you talk about?"

Sure, a lot inside the Imperium and especially Rogue Traders are more pragmatic when it comes to these things. But the Imperium itself is less pragmatic and more dogmatic. Trading alien artifacts is still illegal in the Imperium, contact with aliens is still illegal for regular citizens, only Rogue Trades and Inquisitors are technically authorized. Cooperation last only so long as there is a common enemy and if the Imperium could it would put a bolt in the temporary ally without a second thought. Us versus them isn't a facade, its the offical Imperial policy in universe, with the Imperium having wiped out hundreds if not thousands of alien races when it could spare the manpower, friendly or not.

It's mostly a fluff need for the IoM to remain stagnant and in decay, if Cawl suddenly whipped yet more magic tech from his output port and Humanity's tech suddenly leapt to Age of Technology levels then maybe barring 'Nids (on sheer numbers) the IoM would 'win' against all that opposed them and no more Grimdark

 Disciple of Fate wrote:
Sure, a lot inside the Imperium and especially Rogue Traders are more pragmatic when it comes to these things. But the Imperium itself is less pragmatic and more dogmatic. Trading alien artifacts is still illegal in the Imperium, contact with aliens is still illegal for regular citizens, only Rogue Trades and Inquisitors are technically authorized. Cooperation last only so long as there is a common enemy and if the Imperium could it would put a bolt in the temporary ally without a second thought. Us versus them isn't a facade, its the offical Imperial policy in universe, with the Imperium having wiped out hundreds if not thousands of alien races when it could spare the manpower, friendly or not.

Indeed, but, since Imperium is feudal empire that mostly concerns itself with local affairs when taxes aren't being paid. After all, most imperial worlds are huddled alone or in small clusters, connected by thin and sporadic trade routes across vast tracks of space filled with non-imperials and aliens, with the intent to destroy them when there's time and resources, which never come. Imperiums the biggest empire, but it doesn't have much of foothold anywhere, exept maybe in the heart of Segmentum Solar and few other places. So I doubt Imperiums laws are very strictly policed elsewhere, atleast the ones that the local populace disregards, or are considered too small time offences for the time being, as long as they keep paying those ever important taxes, with the intent to curb such practices when there's time and resources for it which, again, never come.

I mean, Badab war didn't really heat up because of the military build up or when Lught Huron declared himself a tyrant, but because he stopped paying tithes. Only then did words become deed, with everything else he did being used as evidence and to rally support.

Taxes taxes taxes, that's the one thing that Imperium ultimately cares about. The rest is nice, but it's money that makes the world go round

 Turnip Jedi wrote:
It's mostly a fluff need for the IoM to remain stagnant and in decay, if Cawl suddenly whipped yet more magic tech from his output port and Humanity's tech suddenly leapt to Age of Technology levels then maybe barring 'Nids (on sheer numbers) the IoM would 'win' against all that opposed them and no more Grimdark

Even Cawl inventing new things won't solve the problem truthfully. the IoM's tech level is actually quite high BUT it's not constant across the IoM. And thats proably the biggest hurdle for the IoM. The Guard's equipment isn't what it is because thats the best they can equip them with, but because it's the most practical to equip them with due to the widely varying tech levels across the IoM, it's dead simple and even a low tech barbarian could use a lasgun. if the IoM managed to get all of it's worlds up to the highest tech level and managed to get their logistics to support super advanced tech they can make well.. THAT would be scary, but between the widely inconstant tech level, and Mars hoarding of tech it gets difficult.

Morgasm the Powerfull wrote:

 Disciple of Fate wrote:
Sure, a lot inside the Imperium and especially Rogue Traders are more pragmatic when it comes to these things. But the Imperium itself is less pragmatic and more dogmatic. Trading alien artifacts is still illegal in the Imperium, contact with aliens is still illegal for regular citizens, only Rogue Trades and Inquisitors are technically authorized. Cooperation last only so long as there is a common enemy and if the Imperium could it would put a bolt in the temporary ally without a second thought. Us versus them isn't a facade, its the offical Imperial policy in universe, with the Imperium having wiped out hundreds if not thousands of alien races when it could spare the manpower, friendly or not.

Indeed, but, since Imperium is feudal empire that mostly concerns itself with local affairs when taxes aren't being paid. After all, most imperial worlds are huddled alone or in small clusters, connected by thin and sporadic trade routes across vast tracks of space filled with non-imperials and aliens, with the intent to destroy them when there's time and resources, which never come. Imperiums the biggest empire, but it doesn't have much of foothold anywhere, exept maybe in the heart of Segmentum Solar and few other places. So I doubt Imperiums laws are very strictly policed elsewhere, atleast the ones that the local populace disregards, or are considered too small time offences for the time being, as long as they keep paying those ever important taxes, with the intent to curb such practices when there's time and resources for it which, again, never come.

I mean, Badab war didn't really heat up because of the military build up or when Lught Huron declared himself a tyrant, but because he stopped paying tithes. Only then did words become deed, with everything else he did being used as evidence and to rally support.

Taxes taxes taxes, that's the one thing that Imperium ultimately cares about. The rest is nice, but it's money that makes the world go round

Don't underestimate the reach of the Arbites, on each Imperial planet they are supposed to have at least 1 for the smallest and thousands or tens of thousands for the bigger one. Violating those laws carries an instant death penalty. If the Arbites find out it will be over quickly. So its quite strongly policed and if those actions are out in the open it won't be long before Imperial justice comes crashing down on it. The upper part of Imperial society falls in the umcomfortable middle ground, they might be important enough to avoid the Arbites, but go to far and your life is forfeit.

Besides the Arbites we also have the Imperial Church monitoring for these kinds of things. The Adeptus Terra cares about the taxes, the Arbites and the Ministorum hunt for the things you mention.

You are making some wrong assumptions about Badab. Huron only installed himself as system governor after crushing a rebellion and he had a good rep in the sector. Its not uncommon for SM Chapters to take over control of a system, so nothing was thought of it, after all its far from uncommon. Second the Imperium was unaware he was building up his Chapter to higher levels, the sporadic gene seed tithe was again, not uncommon amongst SM Chapters. As far as the Imperium was aware nothing the Astral Claws did was out of line, only when he directly stopped paying tithes did the rest of it come to a head.

 Disciple of Fate wrote:

Morgasm the Powerfull wrote:

 Disciple of Fate wrote:
Sure, a lot inside the Imperium and especially Rogue Traders are more pragmatic when it comes to these things. But the Imperium itself is less pragmatic and more dogmatic. Trading alien artifacts is still illegal in the Imperium, contact with aliens is still illegal for regular citizens, only Rogue Trades and Inquisitors are technically authorized. Cooperation last only so long as there is a common enemy and if the Imperium could it would put a bolt in the temporary ally without a second thought. Us versus them isn't a facade, its the offical Imperial policy in universe, with the Imperium having wiped out hundreds if not thousands of alien races when it could spare the manpower, friendly or not.

Indeed, but, since Imperium is feudal empire that mostly concerns itself with local affairs when taxes aren't being paid. After all, most imperial worlds are huddled alone or in small clusters, connected by thin and sporadic trade routes across vast tracks of space filled with non-imperials and aliens, with the intent to destroy them when there's time and resources, which never come. Imperiums the biggest empire, but it doesn't have much of foothold anywhere, exept maybe in the heart of Segmentum Solar and few other places. So I doubt Imperiums laws are very strictly policed elsewhere, atleast the ones that the local populace disregards, or are considered too small time offences for the time being, as long as they keep paying those ever important taxes, with the intent to curb such practices when there's time and resources for it which, again, never come.

I mean, Badab war didn't really heat up because of the military build up or when Lught Huron declared himself a tyrant, but because he stopped paying tithes. Only then did words become deed, with everything else he did being used as evidence and to rally support.

Taxes taxes taxes, that's the one thing that Imperium ultimately cares about. The rest is nice, but it's money that makes the world go round

Don't underestimate the reach of the Arbites, on each Imperial planet they are supposed to have at least 1 for the smallest and thousands or tens of thousands for the bigger one. Violating those laws carries an instant death penalty. If the Arbites find out it will be over quickly. So its quite strongly policed and if those actions are out in the open it won't be long before Imperial justice comes crashing down on it. The upper part of Imperial society falls in the umcomfortable middle ground, they might be important enough to avoid the Arbites, but go to far and your life is forfeit.

Besides the Arbites we also have the Imperial Church monitoring for these kinds of things. The Adeptus Terra cares about the taxes, the Arbites and the Ministorum hunt for the things you mention.

You are making some wrong assumptions about Badab. Huron only installed himself as system governor after crushing a rebellion and he had a good rep in the sector. Its not uncommon for SM Chapters to take over control of a system, so nothing was thought of it, after all its far from uncommon. Second the Imperium was unaware he was building up his Chapter to higher levels, the sporadic gene seed tithe was again, not uncommon amongst SM Chapters. As far as the Imperium was aware nothing the Astral Claws did was out of line, only when he directly stopped paying tithes did the rest of it come to a head.

Adeptus Terra and Ministorums may be scary, but there are limits to what even they can do, before risking rebellion from the locals, and then another planet not paying taxes, weakening imperiums hold on that sector, putting more worlds at risk, for something as petty as commoners buying bread from a centipedian yak, while otherwise being happy and compliant and willing to fight for the emperor in an actual war for something more important.

But there is little lore backing up that Imperial commoners actually interact with aliens or even live on the same planet. FFG Rogue Trader RPG (while not directly GW still approved by them) even states that alien crew must have a clearly visible brand of ownership/servitude to avoid the kill on sight policy on Imperial worlds.

And yes they are scary, but the arbites have the authority to step in and relieve local government of their power if they don't obey Imperial law. Rebellions are pretty common exactly because the Imperium doesn't tend to give an inch, with human on human wars being the most common in the fluff.

Weirdly the Imperium very much gives an inch most of the time. Planets can do whatever they like as long as their tithes and loyalty stay.