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Since it's been taking over the KT news & rumors thread, I thought I'd open a new thread specific to unit inclusion in Kill Team, to continue that discussion.

The units included are:
-Storm Guardians
-Guardian Defenders
-Dire Avengers
-Rangers

There were a couple points that were brought up that I wanted to comment on:

-The claim that the KT should be Rangers
Rangers are not actually CWE members. They're former (and typically future) members who are fighting beside the Craftworld.

-Can't do Aspects because of lack of choice
The Guardian Defender kit has every option any Guardian Defender can take. Specifically, the list is:

Yep. 0 options. If you look at the kit, there is a bit that looks like a tool for interacting with a weapons platform. There are some alt heads and grenades and stuff. But it's one of the least customizable non-monopose-clampack kits out there. That list is surprisingly similar to what every Aspect Warrior aside from the Crimson Hunter has, which is this list:

Yep again nothing.

Fortunately, the CWE list does have Rangers. So what's their list? Here:

Yep again nothing.

I was hopeful (as were many) that Kill Team would let us do some alternate builds of the Guardian models, but we haven't seen anything like that. Still hoping, but I'd be shocked.

That said, it's not so bad. CWE can do:
0-1 DA Exarch, which can pick:
A second catapualt
Turn in their catapault for a lance & pistol
Turn in their catapault for a sword & pistol
Turn in their catapault for a lance & shield (note - no sword & shield option)
So that's almost at the SM Sarge level. If you squint. And are on something.

Also, we get 0-1 Weapons Platforms, I believe, which have 4 Heavies to pick for. So basically a Tac that picked a Heavy Weapon. About the same.

So almost all our customization comes from Storm Guardians. Despite being in the CWE dex, these *are* one of the worst troops in the game. Whenever someone says "PAGK are worst troop" or "Tacs are worst troop", these guys get their day in the sun. They have tons of options! Almsot to the Tac level!
-Aldari Blade. Reroll 1st to hit in 40k. On an A:2 model. Yay.
-Chainsword.
-Power Sword
-Fusion Gun
-Flamer
So they're basically the Tac specialist. Except they get only the bad specials. And replace the good one and another option with a CC weapon with no S buff on an S3 model. And all this on a Guardsman's body. Yay?

Hopefully we're missing a lot of details.

-Guardians in the fluff
My understanding/reading is that Guardians are militia (except Black Guardians who are a standing army).
As for experience, they don't require that Guardians had previously been Aspect Warriors (that's Warlocks). The fluff had been updated to say that, over the centuries, most Craftworlders have served as an Aspect Warrior at least once. So most Guardians have been Aspect Warriors. A Guardian isn't more experienced than an Aspect Warrior, because Aspect Warriors don't "graduate" to Guardians. An Aspect Warrior is just as likely as a Guardian to have previously walked an Aspect Warrior path.

As for Guardians on Kill Teams, I don't think it's that unlikely. Aspect Warriors make more sense, when they're available. There aren't enough Aspect Warriors to go around. That's why militia gets used in the first place. So, frequently, a killteam will need to be guardians. Probably more often than not. Aspects would certainly do it better, but Marines will certainly do KT better than Guardsmen, man for man. You use what's available.

This was always going to be the case - as long as Eldar are denied more than half their range not being in plastic, etc. Eldar were a joke in Shadow War and that indicated very heavily the route we'd go with Killteam.

And yes, Guardians are citizen-militia called in when desperate (i.e. a fully fledged war). They're akin to the use of Imperial Guard, when a small Astartes force can't get a task accomplished. Normally the Eldar Aspect Warriors would be doing the hard fighting (in smaller, controlled actions).

It used to be that Guardian sergeants were Eldar who had previously traveled a warrior path for an Aspect. Their stats were still the same, but the idea was that these guys at least had some recollection of basic military organization and tactics.

They've changed the fluff a little, the current codex does say that every single civilian on a craftworld does have formal military training if at all possible. They're not just some scrubs with a rifle stuck in their hands, those are IG conscripts. When you consider that the lowest eldar guardian is more skilled than an IG veteran then it's not unreasonable for guardians to drawn into kill teams.

KT also isn't always a game where both teams are some secret squirrel op8rs sent on some super critical mission. They can be squads separated on a battlefield, vehicle crews that abandoned their vehicle, sentries guarding a base, scouts that bump into each other, etc, etc. Guardians are present in pretty much every eldar military operation because they're the most numerous. You can't use aspect warriors for every fight.

That being said, I will agree that some aspect warriors should make it to KT, and they probably will as the game expands. I just don't agree that guardians aren't appropriate.

I understand the complaints that more aspect warriors were not included. I was annoyed myself at first, then I saw the rules and point costs.

They're the same.

Except for the point costs, which are mostly the same, and ranged weapon upgrade options have gone down in cost.

So aspect warriors (at least, the ones that actually should be included in Kill Team ie not the jump pack level mobile ones) should be fairly easy to proxy in, with one notable exception.

Dire avengers: Already exist.

Howling Banshees: Find the point cost of a power sword in the Guard list, then just pay the cost of the body for the banshee.

Striking scorpions: pay the cost of the body, assume that the chainsword would cost 0 because there is so far no weapon that costs 0 in 40k that doesn't cost 0 in KT.

Fire Dragon: If only we knew what a fusion gun costs in Kill Team.

Warp Spider: Iffy. But, I would bet that the advantage of mobility would be offset by the fact that their gun would almost certainly be cheaper if they were given "bespoke" KT rules, so just paying the normal 40k cost would more likely be a disadvantage. However mobility in KT seems very limited due to the small board size.

Dark Reapers: These guys would be drop dead flat out busted in KT, which so far appears to be a game mode that relies on a LOT of negative hit modifiers to work. Like, -2 to -3 is going to be normal, and the rule DRs have would be even more broken here than in base 40k.

Spears, Crimson Hunters: Too big for KT. Sorry boys.

Arguably the most fitting aspects for KT (banshees, scorpions, avengers) are the three easiest to put in yourself.

Also, storm guardians are the worst troops in 40k. Kill team is a whole different ball game, and one that from what we know so far heavily advantages lighter infantry (every model has a base 50% chance to survive any fatal wound). it also favors autohit weaponry, and firing weapons from under half range. Guess what melta guns and flamers do?

One issue with the aspect warriors is that KT is heavily limited on how many special weapons you can take. If you start adding in all the aspect warriors you're adding in a lot more special weapons since every model has one in most of the aspects

What could be done about that is putting a hard cap on total aspect warriors and not just total models from each datasheet. Give them all the aspect warrior keyword and then have a rule saying you can only have like 3 or 4 aspect warrior models total. Excluding DAs since they're basically just a better guardian.

On storm guardians, I think they're going to be solid in KT. At least flamer ones. With the large number of penalties to hit in the game I think flamers will be very good.

Its sad that they went down this route.

Little customisation options.

Guardians rather than Aspect Warriors or even Corsairs.

Guardians are not really applicble to the Gaurd or even the PDF - for the most part the latter and the former are not valued greatly by their superiors - the same is not true of the Eldar. The situtaiton has to be desperate to mobilise poets and scultors, teachers and cooks to fight and posisbily die, perhaps even to be destroyed - their soul stones lost or worse devoured. Even if they sruvive they can be emotionally damaged by the experience.

No the Eldar turn to those who have chosen the Path of the Warrior and who seek to explore and perfect its road or to the Outcasts, who wild nature drives them beyond the Path but who can still contribute, still serve their Craftworld.

FYI, Power Sword and Chainsword are available to Storm Guardians, so should be in the rules.

You could proxy a Power Sword Storm Guardian as a Banshee. I'd rather have rules, but it works. A Chainsword Guardian as a Scorpion is a much bigger stretch, but could be done.

Spiders/Hawks should only be added if/when ASM and similar get added.

Reapers only when Devs and similiar (as in, multiple heavies, not as in one - Guardians can already do one) get added.

Spears (and WIndriders) only when Bikers get added for more factions.

Crimson Hunter only when the StormTalon gets added (hopefully never).

Also, on Storm Guardians, we may not need to take a "whole squad" of them just to take a MG/Flamer/Powersword. So it'll be interesting what the actual rules are. And if BattleFocus doesn't give priority (treated as having not moved), Guardians are going to be so bad that Storm Guardians might be our goto to actually "storm" stuff.

So far from the review videos that show off space marines you don't have to take the regular models in a unit to take the gunner versions. As far as I can tell at least

Bharring wrote:
FYI, Power Sword and Chainsword are available to Storm Guardians, so should be in the rules.

You could proxy a Power Sword Storm Guardian as a Banshee. I'd rather have rules, but it works. A Chainsword Guardian as a Scorpion is a much bigger stretch, but could be done.

Spiders/Hawks should only be added if/when ASM and similar get added.

Reapers only when Devs and similiar (as in, multiple heavies, not as in one - Guardians can already do one) get added.

Spears (and WIndriders) only when Bikers get added for more factions.

Crimson Hunter only when the StormTalon gets added (hopefully never).

Also, on Storm Guardians, we may not need to take a "whole squad" of them just to take a MG/Flamer/Powersword. So it'll be interesting what the actual rules are. And if BattleFocus doesn't give priority (treated as having not moved), Guardians are going to be so bad that Storm Guardians might be our goto to actually "storm" stuff.

from the screencap of the french rulebook:

-There is no power sword option for Storm Guardians, only Aeldari Blade/Chainsword. A scorp chainsword is not the same as a regular chainsword though, so I feel it would just make more sense to copy/paste the scorp straight in from 40k. IIRC the scorpion chainsword doesn't grant the extra attack only adds 1 STR.

-Though there is not a power sword point cost for eldar, a guard sergeant is also a 2A S3 model, so the point cost conversion from him to a basic banshee should be exact.

-There is no requirement to take basic models to get the sergeant/special weapon/heavy weapon guys, the limit on those is only per kill team. Two storm guardians may have special weapons in your kill team - meaning you can have two flamers.

-Battlefocus just lets you fire assault weapons as if you had not moved (at least, in the french version). The rules for all models are identical between 40k and KT, the only difference is the dire avenger exarch shield projects an invuln to any models within an aura range of him.

I’m pretty confident this is all because of the kits, not fluff or wargear choices.

GW does not currently produce any Aspect Warrior aside from Dire Avengers.

Of course, they don't make Ranger either, so I guess that's not the real reason.

Completely spaced the Chainsword vs Scorp Chainsword difference. And that's kinda a big deal.

DA would be the better base model to increase to a Banshee. In theory, it's a weapon swap of an ASC to a Powersword (about the same value, in theory). In practice, the points would be very wrong. Banshees also have a 4+, Guardians have a 5+. Also, Banshees move at about the speed of a jetpack ASM, so there's that too.

Really, no powersword for the Storm Guardian? So, not only do we get mostly noncustomizable options, but we don't even get all of our standard options on our one customizable unit? Wow. Good catch. I had completely forgotten that the Power Sword became index-only. So it makes sense, but is disappointing.

Battle focus lets you fire weapons (that are not heavy) as if you had not moved.

This gets complicated. It comes down to can you select the model as if it had not moved. Due to order of operations, i'd normally say no.

However, both Assault and Pistol rules (among others) make it abundantly clear that similar exceptions do impact selecting units to fire (having advanced and being within 1" of an enemy, respectively).

So, if a special rule on a weapon lets you select it to fire because it invalidates the rule that keeps you from doing so, would Battle Focus allow you to select the unit to fire as if it didn't move because it shoots as if it didn't move?

I don't believe we know enough to answer that question definitively.

Bharring wrote:
Completely spaced the Chainsword vs Scorp Chainsword difference. And that's kinda a big deal.

DA would be the better base model to increase to a Banshee. In theory, it's a weapon swap of an ASC to a Powersword (about the same value, in theory). In practice, the points would be very wrong. Banshees also have a 4+, Guardians have a 5+. Also, Banshees move at about the speed of a jetpack ASM, so there's that too.

Really, no powersword for the Storm Guardian? So, not only do we get mostly noncustomizable options, but we don't even get all of our standard options on our one customizable unit? Wow. Good catch. I had completely forgotten that the Power Sword became index-only. So it makes sense, but is disappointing.

Battle focus lets you fire weapons (that are not heavy) as if you had not moved.

This gets complicated. It comes down to can you select the model as if it had not moved. Due to order of operations, i'd normally say no.

However, both Assault and Pistol rules (among others) make it abundantly clear that similar exceptions do impact selecting units to fire (having advanced and being within 1" of an enemy, respectively).

So, if a special rule on a weapon lets you select it to fire because it invalidates the rule that keeps you from doing so, would Battle Focus allow you to select the unit to fire as if it didn't move because it shoots as if it didn't move?

I don't believe we know enough to answer that question definitively.

I can confirm the rule is the same (translating from french it says "you may fire (it says employ but I assume it means fire) their weapon as if they had not moved") RAW, if a model that doesn't move gets priority when firing over models that didn't move, eldar that advanced would get to shoot first.

But eldar that did not advance and just moved normally would not.

they gotta get PUMPED UP i guess? Gotta go fast?

the page with the weaponry is tough to see but you can see the stat page and the fact that the Dire Avenger Exarch has 2 different Pistol/Melee Weapon options, which I assume are Diresword/pistol and Glaive/Pistol. The other two weapons are aeldari blade and chainsword.

 DarknessEternal wrote:
GW does not currently produce any Aspect Warrior aside from Dire Avengers.

Of course, they don't make Ranger either, so I guess that's not the real reason.

...I'm sorry but what do you mean by this?

It's been previously stated that the forces available at launch are based around the available plastic kits for each faction, with a few non-plastic units added where appropriate (for example, Flayed Ones, Lictors and Aeldari Rangers). Presumably they feel that the other resin Aspect Warrior units are insufficiently appropriate for small squad-level actions to be included at this time.

Or they feel that Rangers are more necessary than Scorpions, and one Resin kit is easier to justify than two.

Or they tried to mostly stick to Troops, with a few exception, and CWE gets 4 choices that are Troops already.

Or... you know what? I think I'll just read HoR KillTeam rules instead.

I was a bit miffed on the exclusion of scorpions given what they are designed to do.

Saying that they get their ranger guide?

I hold out hope that the scorps will be added in swiftly and an outcasts team formed up so i can use my outcasts with lasguns

 AndrewGPaul wrote:
It's been previously stated that the forces available at launch are based around the available plastic kits for each faction, with a few non-plastic units added where appropriate (for example, Flayed Ones, Lictors and Aeldari Rangers). Presumably they feel that the other resin Aspect Warrior units are insufficiently appropriate for small squad-level actions to be included at this time.

Yep no Mandrakes or Scorpions - why would you

Bharring wrote:
Completely spaced the Chainsword vs Scorp Chainsword difference. And that's kinda a big deal.

DA would be the better base model to increase to a Banshee. In theory, it's a weapon swap of an ASC to a Powersword (about the same value, in theory). In practice, the points would be very wrong. Banshees also have a 4+, Guardians have a 5+. Also, Banshees move at about the speed of a jetpack ASM, so there's that too.

Really, no powersword for the Storm Guardian? So, not only do we get mostly noncustomizable options, but we don't even get all of our standard options on our one customizable unit? Wow. Good catch. I had completely forgotten that the Power Sword became index-only. So it makes sense, but is disappointing.

Battle focus lets you fire weapons (that are not heavy) as if you had not moved.

This gets complicated. It comes down to can you select the model as if it had not moved. Due to order of operations, i'd normally say no.

However, both Assault and Pistol rules (among others) make it abundantly clear that similar exceptions do impact selecting units to fire (having advanced and being within 1" of an enemy, respectively).

So, if a special rule on a weapon lets you select it to fire because it invalidates the rule that keeps you from doing so, would Battle Focus allow you to select the unit to fire as if it didn't move because it shoots as if it didn't move?

I don't believe we know enough to answer that question definitively.

It would be nice if it turns out you can build an aspect warrior using the specialist advancements (and points table for advancements) to build the likes of a Banshee or such. But that would mean also adding in their specialized gear - such as the masks, mirror swords, etc.

 Puganaut wrote:

 DarknessEternal wrote:
GW does not currently produce any Aspect Warrior aside from Dire Avengers.

Of course, they don't make Ranger either, so I guess that's not the real reason.

...I'm sorry but what do you mean by this?

GW does not currently produce those models (non-Dire Avenger Aspect Warriors or Rangers). They haven't for many years.

 Puganaut wrote:

 DarknessEternal wrote:
GW does not currently produce any Aspect Warrior aside from Dire Avengers.

Of course, they don't make Ranger either, so I guess that's not the real reason.

...I'm sorry but what do you mean by this?

He means that Finecast is not a valid medium to release models, because it sucks.
So when discussing what models GW actually makes, we only consider plastic.

-

So all orders for these models are fulfilled from existing stock? Or do you mean they don't develop new kits or spin up new lines in Finecast? That's a very big difference.

Because running out of stock would thoroughly gut a number of lines.

Out of curiousity, who would it hit worse than CWE?

(Not SOB - they didn't even get Finecast models...)

 Galef wrote:

 Puganaut wrote:

 DarknessEternal wrote:
GW does not currently produce any Aspect Warrior aside from Dire Avengers.

Of course, they don't make Ranger either, so I guess that's not the real reason.

...I'm sorry but what do you mean by this?

He means that Finecast is not a valid medium to release models, because it sucks.
So when discussing what models GW actually makes, we only consider plastic.

-

The Dakka Expanded Universe Canon theory must be taken into account here. DE's statement makes sense, because in his particular canon universe, finecast does not exist.

Bharring wrote:
So all orders for these models are fulfilled from existing stock? Or do you mean they don't develop new kits or spin up new lines in Finecast? That's a very big difference.

On the contrary, orders for these models are not filled at all.

They don't have any more and they don't make any more. It has nothing to do with Finecast. Try ordering them, and they'll send you an email that they aren't in stock, and they don't have any predictions on when they might be.

I had an order waiting 14 months without them making anything new before I just cancelled it.