Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I hate resin. Too fragile, too much work to heat and reshape...but damn the details are nice. Oh, as to the OP, absolutely f no it isn't a good part of the hobby...imo. But, I can completely understand why some people enjoy it. People are into all types of things that I don't like. It is a strange argument for you and your friend to have, since its very much like the argument over whether or not GW should sell painted models. People like different things. To each their own.

 Grumblewartz wrote:
..but damn the details are nice.

I'm not even convinced this is a plus for resin any more. Plastic has come a long way in the last few years, the details on recent kits are incredible!

Stux wrote:

 Grumblewartz wrote:
..but damn the details are nice.

I'm not even convinced this is a plus for resin any more. Plastic has come a long way in the last few years, the details on recent kits are incredible!

Well, they're good for plastic, but so far I haven't seen anything in plastic that can compete with Forgeworld or Wargame Exclusive resin detail (or even some of the old metal minis for that matter). I guess there are physical boundaries so that plastic can never be as sharp.

Sgt. Cortez wrote:

Stux wrote:

 Grumblewartz wrote:
..but damn the details are nice.

I'm not even convinced this is a plus for resin any more. Plastic has come a long way in the last few years, the details on recent kits are incredible!

Well, they're good for plastic, but so far I haven't seen anything in plastic that can compete with Forgeworld or Wargame Exclusive resin detail (or even some of the old metal minis for that matter). I guess there are physical boundaries so that plastic can never be as sharp.

Some of the newer AoS models, and the DG line are incredibly high detail, almost to its fault with how fiddly painting it is.

I do have these new DG minis and would still say it's not on the level of resin.

Resin is pretty much an awful gaming material, it's just convenient because of the cost and ability to cast it (particulalry now with the heavy use of 3D printed masters). It's brittle, not particularly flexible and it's only strong quality is that, when well produced, it's capable of finer details (something admittedly wasted on 94% of hobbyists/modelers/gamers out there).

I've had terrible resin and excellent resin. I don't mind the occasionl resin turret or chunky weapon bits, but I disdain resin figures and avoid them at all costs. I don't mind chunky weapon bits and the occasional vehicle or turret for a vehicle...but that's about it.

The main problem with Forgeworld is that they charge a huge premium for their product while producing extremely mediocre products. The designs and looks are cool, the execution is often sub-par. My experience with Forgeworld resin would put it at a solid 6/10. I've had superior results from numerous companies in Poland, Russia, etc. - and I don't mean recasters, I mean newly produced resin models/minis/bits.

I have had worse than Forgeworld as well.

It's why I will not buy into any specialist games now, when they're supported by Forgeworld. Hugely expensive, extra shipping for a questionable result when I open the box? Not gonna happen.

Sgt. Cortez wrote:
I do have these new DG minis and would still say it's not on the level of resin.

If it is still higher resolution, it's certainly marginal these days. Personally, the issues that resin causes far outweigh any possible advantage in detail.

I have to agree. For what forgeworld charges, I expect the absolute best. What I get is. . . above average? Then there's the preposterous shipping and if you need parts replaced (50/50 chance so far for me) you wait even longer.

They do their QA checks and yet you still get incorrect or badly miscast pieces.

Stux wrote:
While some people are very anal about mold lines, they are easily ignorable most of the time.

Uh, no. Models with mold lines on them belong in the trash can. There's nothing ignorable at all about them, they're incredibly obvious and ruin the model. Why spend all the money and painting time on a kit if you aren't going to bother to do the most basic cleanup work and make it look decent? And once you add the cleanup time to do a plastic kit right it's not much better than resin.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Stux wrote:
I'm not even convinced this is a plus for resin any more. Plastic has come a long way in the last few years, the details on recent kits are incredible!

It's still a plus. Plastic kits (at least with the mold technology GW uses) can't even do undercuts at all, which is a big limit. Trying to duplicate my DKoK in plastic just wouldn't work. To do things like air hoses that are separate from the body you'd have to have dozens of tiny parts for a single infantry model. And even then I'm skeptical that plastic could match the sharpness and minimum feature size of the resin kit.

Karol wrote:

In a way it is funny how recast resin from China or Russia is often better quality as detail and model sturdines goes.

How many FW models have you built? How many recast kits?

We've been following your posts taking about buying your first army this summer (which you bought built and couldn't afford to add to) so I'm thinking zero.

 Peregrine wrote:

Stux wrote:
While some people are very anal about mold lines, they are easily ignorable most of the time.

Uh, no. Models with mold lines on them belong in the trash can. There's nothing ignorable at all about them, they're incredibly obvious and ruin the model.

Each to their own. I disagree pretty strongly with that. I mean they CAN be that bad, but it's pretty rare on modern kits.

Stux wrote:
Each to their own. I disagree pretty strongly with that. I mean they CAN be that bad, but it's pretty rare on modern kits.

Any mold line is unacceptable.

Some people enjoy the destination and others the journey.

Resin casting is expensive because it's mostly labor. The materials are relatively cheap. Consequently there is a lot of pressure to turn the molds as fast as possible. Pulling the cast and pouring the next one after the minimum time to cure. When you do that the resin is still pliable, particularly for long, thin pieces, and can be warped easily just by opening the mold roughly. A lot of Forgeworld problems could be solved just by taking more time to turn the molds over. Unfortunately that costs money.

 Crimson Devil wrote:
Some people enjoy the destination and others the journey.

Resin casting is expensive because it's mostly labor. The materials are relatively cheap. Consequently there is a lot of pressure to turn the molds as fast as possible. Pulling the cast and pouring the next one after the minimum time to cure. When you do that the resin is still pliable, particularly for long, thin pieces, and can be warped easily just by opening the mold roughly. A lot of Forgeworld problems could be solved just by taking more time to turn the molds over. Unfortunately that costs money.

Id gladly pay a 5% markup on all their product to have them be more careful.

ehhhh honestly most of the time its not bad. cleaning and fixing small things IS part of the hobby and i find it very therapeutic.

this is not the case for some models that require power tools and heat guns just to get it to fit or full on resculpting. its embarrassing for the price.

Lets not forget that people online complain way more than they compliment; so all the "big reports" of FW problems are not without some degree of bias in that many people buy them and are more than happy with the quality and don't get huge issues.

They just don't come online and shout about it.



Thus far the only plastic I've seen that has achieved what I think is similar levels of sharp detail is the plastic hybrid stuff that Hawk Wargames (now TC Combat) makes. It's very high detail (infact too high as they've got some masochistic desire to put LOTS of lumpy ridge details on the edges of some models thankfully the mould lines are fine but its still soul destroying to clean).

Miniature industry is a rare industry where costumers tolerate flawed products. I wonder how many other products people buy which are damaged
and then say screw it, I'm just gonna fix it...probably zero. FW miniatures, which costs hundreds of euros, should be almost flawless.

If mini like a mastodon is flawed, which is around 350€, should be fixed by FW not the costumer. I saw some reviews on YouT of FW minis which
were heavily warped and needed a lot of work to be done and the customer just said he's gonna fixed it...

Things like that shouldn't be tolerated especially for expensive minis.

 Modock wrote:
Miniature industry is a rare industry where costumers tolerate flawed products. I wonder how many other products people buy which are dameged
and then say screw it, I'm just gonna fix it...probably zero. FW miniatures, which costs hundreds of euros, should be almost flawless.

If mini like a mastodon is flawed, which is around 350€, should be fixed by FW not the costumer. I saw some reviews on YouT of FW minis which
were heavily warped and needed a lot of work to be done and the customer just said he's gonna fixed it...

Things like that shouldn't be tolerated especially for really expensive minis.

This. My main argument has always been if as a metal machinist, nobody in their right mind would accept work from me if I hand them back a warped piece of metal, and just shrug and fix it themselves. As a worker, it's my job to make sure the customer gets a quality product. The point of being able to assemble miniture yourself is so that you can alter it as you see fit, not alter it because you literally have to because of errors on the part of the production team. You wouldn't like your cola cans banged to hell out of box, just because they're still drinkable.

Good part? no, not really, I don't view fixing defeats that should have been found by quality control an essential or enjoyable part of the hobby.

would prefer to use the skills required to better ends and the time taken likewise

 vaklor4 wrote:
A friend and I recently got into an arguement. I stated that I shouldnt just sit down and put up with FW resin being flawed out of box, needing reshaping and all that jazz. He says it is just a part of the fun and Im not entirely understanding the hobby. Whats your take on this? Is it really an enjoyable aspect for people to work the kinks out of their models, or am I right to expect an out of box quality? Especially with how much I pay for it.

I agree with you 100%. When you pay the premium price for FW you should get premium product. If there is any part that is not up to premium standards (minor heat shaping can get a pass), a replacement request will be made. FW service has always been top notch in regards to replacing bad resin.

Generally speaking, I love myself some sprue plastic, but I do sometimes feel that people get so used to working with it they overlook its flaws and limitations. Mold lines can be an issue and the part count is generally higher, which can combine to a pretty long build process. It also tends to be thinner and less tolerant of curved surfaces. Resin doesn't like straight lines, but its great for big chunky, irregular shapes. I often find it takes less effort to build overall when done well, but bad pour spout placement can definitely make for some frustrating parts to work with.

Its a necessary aspect of working with large resin kits. Whilst I'd obviously prefer a completely perfect miniature out of the box I know what I'm getting when I buy a forgeworld kit and usually don't mind putting a little extra effort into cleaning up what is going to be a particularly impressive centrepiece model for my army. I rarely have any major problems with forgeworld. The biggest difficulties I had were trying to bend the scorpion's pulse lasers so they were both completely straight and lined up with each other and having to saw through some especially large and awkwardly placed resin sprue attachments.

Finecaste on the other hand I hate with a passion. Having constructed a largely resin aspect warrior warhost having to deal with the massive number of air bubbles and tiny tabs hiding amidst the model detail was hell for large numbers of rank and file troops. I also bought some lovely resin models from a small russian manufacturer, which were original sculpts, and so massively superior in quality it was unfunny. Other than some mild transparent flash around some of the finer detail they required no work at all.

Karol wrote:
You guys actually made me check how this is called in english, and it seems, maybe wrong here, that the term you guys use is white knighting. Which imo is worse then wife beating, everyone knows that wife beating is something bad, while it is hard for me to imagine why a knight specially a white one would be something bad. I would get black knight those are always evil in stories and history.

The term you're looking for based on your original post is probably Stockhold Syndrome.

 Peregrine wrote:

Stux wrote:
Each to their own. I disagree pretty strongly with that. I mean they CAN be that bad, but it's pretty rare on modern kits.

Any mold line is unacceptable.

I literally can't see most mold lines, and that's when I've picked it up to examine. On the table, they're invisible.
Should my limited vision mean I can't play 40k?
I can measure, use a laser for LOS, and roll big dice.
My modules are mostly grey because painting is incredibly hard for me to do. The only army I make a point to paint is my Necrons, because I can manage a paint job that I enjoy, even if it's crap.

The Newman wrote:

Karol wrote:
You guys actually made me check how this is called in english, and it seems, maybe wrong here, that the term you guys use is white knighting. Which imo is worse then wife beating, everyone knows that wife beating is something bad, while it is hard for me to imagine why a knight specially a white one would be something bad. I would get black knight those are always evil in stories and history.

The term you're looking for based on your original post is probably Stockhold Syndrome.

Stockholm.

 Scott-S6 wrote:

The Newman wrote:

Karol wrote:
You guys actually made me check how this is called in english, and it seems, maybe wrong here, that the term you guys use is white knighting. Which imo is worse then wife beating, everyone knows that wife beating is something bad, while it is hard for me to imagine why a knight specially a white one would be something bad. I would get black knight those are always evil in stories and history.

The term you're looking for based on your original post is probably Stockhold Syndrome.

Stockholm.

BAH GAWD JR he's got him in the stockhold!

 Blndmage wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

Stux wrote:
Each to their own. I disagree pretty strongly with that. I mean they CAN be that bad, but it's pretty rare on modern kits.

Any mold line is unacceptable.

I literally can't see most mold lines, and that's when I've picked it up to examine. On the table, they're invisible.
Should my limited vision mean I can't play 40k?
I can measure, use a laser for LOS, and roll big dice.
My modules are mostly grey because painting is incredibly hard for me to do. The only army I make a point to paint is my Necrons, because I can manage a paint job that I enjoy, even if it's crap.

I'm glad I'm not alone!

Honestly though, I don't have vision problems and on most models I have to be really looking for it to notice mold lines. When they're bad, I do make an effort to remove them, but I find this doesn't come up often.

Everyone has different standards for this of course. What is a glaring abomination to one person really doesn't matter to another. I feel my point stands though that there is a difference between a purely aesthetic thing, and a model literally not fitting together without heat treatment!

Stux wrote:
I feel my point stands though that there is a difference between a purely aesthetic thing, and a model literally not fitting together without heat treatment!

A model not fitting together is a "purely aesthetic thing" by that standard. I have never seen a FW model that couldn't be glued together without straightening parts. Sure, you'd have gaps everywhere, but that's no different from a plastic kit with the mold lines left untouched. And if you assume that aesthetic factors matter (and if they don't, why are you playing 40k at all?) the total time is all that matters, total time which is only slightly in favor of the plastic kit.

 Peregrine wrote:

Stux wrote:
I feel my point stands though that there is a difference between a purely aesthetic thing, and a model literally not fitting together without heat treatment!

A model not fitting together is a "purely aesthetic thing" by that standard. I have never seen a FW model that couldn't be glued together without straightening parts. Sure, you'd have gaps everywhere, but that's no different from a plastic kit with the mold lines left untouched. And if you assume that aesthetic factors matter (and if they don't, why are you playing 40k at all?) the total time is all that matters, total time which is only slightly in favor of the plastic kit.

I think we have to agree to disagree at this point, because to me it really isn't the same thing.

The Newman wrote:

Karol wrote:
You guys actually made me check how this is called in english, and it seems, maybe wrong here, that the term you guys use is white knighting. Which imo is worse then wife beating, everyone knows that wife beating is something bad, while it is hard for me to imagine why a knight specially a white one would be something bad. I would get black knight those are always evil in stories and history.

The term you're looking for based on your original post is probably Stockhold Syndrome.

Nope that happens, is when someone holds you somewhere against your own will and you start thinking you are the same as that person. In our example it would require the FW product buyer to think that, because he is "fixing" the models he is a GW employee. The thinking that GW is always right would be a secondary trait in such a situation.

A model not fitting together is a "purely aesthetic thing" by that standard. I have never seen a FW model that couldn't be glued together without straightening parts. Sure, you'd have gaps everywhere, but that's no different from a plastic kit with the mold lines left untouched. And if you assume that aesthetic factors matter (and if they don't, why are you playing 40k at all?) the total time is all that matters, total time which is only slightly in favor of the plastic kit.

A guy that plays IG at my store and has a huge collection, tanks in going like 10s of same type etc, brought some Lemman Russ turrets he bought from FW latelly and they were beyond salvage. there were 0.5cm air bubble in it and the turrets were soft like rubber. And no it was not his try at recasting, his recasted stuff looks perefect. Kromlech tier hard resin.