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What legion would you like seeing getting more love. I for one think its long time Space Wolves got a bit of attention... just kidding, I'd like to see Iron Warriors and Imperial Fists get some serious focus.

While not specificially a Legion, I'm counting Renegade Chapters since they are a Legion Trait. With no relic option dedicated to them, or warlord trait they feel lacking when compared to the traitor legions properly.

Well that and every argument that could be made for Renegades having more loyalist toys (Razorbacks, Assault Cannons, Drop Pods, ect).

Then again, I have a feeling that whenever Emperor's Children and World Eaters move to being their own codex the unaligned armies left in the CSM book will see some changes to flesh them out to be different from the aligned armies who roll around in the other books. But that's just my hunch on how things might shake out there.

On a loyalist side of things: Iron Hands need a special character (my vote is a Dreadnought because we need more unique and cool Dreadnoughts on the table, and that could lead to them having some custom Dread patterns that other more vanilla chapters don't).

Alpha Legion could use a bit of love. Granted they're all about the secrecy so there isn't much known about them but the could use some characters etc..

Legion of the damned!

dkoz wrote:
Alpha Legion could use a bit of love. Granted they're all about the secrecy so there isn't much known about them but the could use some characters etc..

I also think Alpharius should come back, yes he died but its the Alpha Legion, did 'he' really die... They could have a conjoined daemon Primarch hydra thing as well. Or maybe he's the only non Daemon prince which would be cool, it would bring suspicions about their allegiances as well.

None, Space Marines have too much attention already

All of the First Founding Chapters should get a few bits and pieces - if only to avoid having to shovel more flanderised gak at the Wolves and Angels

The Salamanders need their special Terminators, the Ravenguard some actual snipers/stealth teams, Iron Hands Dreadnoughts - maybe some actual Robots. White Scars something too?

They could have done a great First Founding Codex rather than having to keep trying to fill out snowflake Codexes.

However this should wait unitl after we at least get all the current Factions with models and Codexes

 Bobthehero wrote:
None, Space Marines have too much attention already

Its always been that way though so you may as well pick one lol

Black Templars could get ANY of their stuff back.

 conker249 wrote:
Black Templars could get ANY of their stuff back.

I feel like they should get the Holy Orb back as a one use stratagem.

 ClockworkZion wrote:
While not specificially a Legion, I'm counting Renegade Chapters since they are a Legion Trait. With no relic option dedicated to them, or warlord trait they feel lacking when compared to the traitor legions properly.

Well that and every argument that could be made for Renegades having more loyalist toys (Razorbacks, Assault Cannons, Drop Pods, ect).

That's because Renegades should've actually been represented via the Vanilla codex with some changed keywords and then some strategems and stuff. It could've been REALLY easy too.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
While not specificially a Legion, I'm counting Renegade Chapters since they are a Legion Trait. With no relic option dedicated to them, or warlord trait they feel lacking when compared to the traitor legions properly.

Well that and every argument that could be made for Renegades having more loyalist toys (Razorbacks, Assault Cannons, Drop Pods, ect).

That's because Renegades should've actually been represented via the Vanilla codex with some changed keywords and then some strategems and stuff. It could've been REALLY easy too.

That could be interesting, but that tosses out some CSM based bonuses (DttFE, and Icons for example). That said, I'm not sure if there is an easy solution that doesn't sell something short somewhere, but some love on some level would be nice.

 Mr Morden wrote:
White Scars something too?

Veteran Bikers. As in, Vanguard Veterans with bikes instead of jump packs.

 Duskweaver wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:
White Scars something too?

Veteran Bikers. As in, Vanguard Veterans with bikes instead of jump packs.

They also need a special kind of bike unit I think to separate them from the normal guff, like the ravenwing.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
While not specificially a Legion, I'm counting Renegade Chapters since they are a Legion Trait. With no relic option dedicated to them, or warlord trait they feel lacking when compared to the traitor legions properly.

Well that and every argument that could be made for Renegades having more loyalist toys (Razorbacks, Assault Cannons, Drop Pods, ect).

That's because Renegades should've actually been represented via the Vanilla codex with some changed keywords and then some strategems and stuff. It could've been REALLY easy too.

That could be interesting, but that tosses out some CSM based bonuses (DttFE, and Icons for example). That said, I'm not sure if there is an easy solution that doesn't sell something short somewhere, but some love on some level would be nice.

They're just Renegades compared to being THE Legions where Death To The False Emperor makes sense. Allow Marks so they interact with Strategems and then you're gold.

Good point with the Icons but honestly nobody is using those besides the Khorne one.

Would anyone seriously object if the Space Wolves were to get an updated Ragnar at some point?

Unfortunately, your chances are decreased substantially since GW stopped doing metals (and the subsequent finecast minis based on metals). Metal minis were the only reason you have 80% of the characters currently available in 40K. GW "could" do this via resin now, but their history with resin is gak across the board, and GW is likely wanting to move away from resin if possible.

If GW can't produce quick and easy "character" models to help define random chapters and legions, you're not likely to see a big push for them. When was the last plastic-sprue character put out who wasn't one of the primary chapters/factions? Are there any plastic character models for a non-traditional codex army? I don't think so.

And we know now that GW is firmly entrenched on the "no models, no rules" stance. So if they continue to decrease their backlog of old resin holdovers from the metal sculpt days...you'll start to see Imperial Fist and Crimson Fist characters go away, rather than grow in number. You could possibly see some show up at Forgeworld (probably your best bet), but beyond that I don't see any sub-chapter getting any kind of genuine attention.

GW used to release random metal characters based on White Dwarf articles. Something fun and cool, and relatively easy. Make a master, sling some metal, toss it in a blister with a sticky label on it (no special box needed, no additional art, no special packaging). Those days are long gone. If it can't justify an expensive plastic mold and a $35.00 pricetag you're not likely to see it in the future.

Now to play devil's adocate to my own opinion...it is "possible" that GW will see the light and may start to consider doing boxes of 3-4 hero models on a single sprue (something they should already be doing). You have one sprue, one SKU, etc. So, best case scenario for the players of random quasi-chapters...a box of "Heroes of the Crimson Fists" ---- a plastic sprue kit which includes 2-4 named characters? Maybe. A very distant, minimal, tiny maybe.

 Dysartes wrote:
Would anyone seriously object if the Space Wolves were to get an updated Ragnar at some point?

I wouldn't, I collect them, but we have to admit we get the most love out of all the other legions apart from maybe ultrasmurfs.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Elbows wrote:
Unfortunately, your chances are decreased substantially since GW stopped doing metals (and the subsequent finecast minis based on metals). Metal minis were the only reason you have 80% of the characters currently available in 40K. GW "could" do this via resin now, but their history with resin is gak across the board, and GW is likely wanting to move away from resin if possible.

If GW can't produce quick and easy "character" models to help define random chapters and legions, you're not likely to see a big push for them. When was the last plastic-sprue character put out who wasn't one of the primary chapters/factions? Are there any plastic character models for a non-traditional codex army? I don't think so.

And we know now that GW is firmly entrenched on the "no models, no rules" stance. So if they continue to decrease their backlog of old resin holdovers from the metal sculpt days...you'll start to see Imperial Fist and Crimson Fist characters go away, rather than grow in number. You could possibly see some show up at Forgeworld (probably your best bet), but beyond that I don't see any sub-chapter getting any kind of genuine attention.

GW used to release random metal characters based on White Dwarf articles. Something fun and cool, and relatively easy. Make a master, sling some metal, toss it in a blister with a sticky label on it (no special box needed, no additional art, no special packaging). Those days are long gone. If it can't justify an expensive plastic mold and a $35.00 pricetag you're not likely to see it in the future.

Now to play devil's adocate to my own opinion...it is "possible" that GW will see the light and may start to consider doing boxes of 3-4 hero models on a single sprue (something they should already be doing). You have one sprue, one SKU, etc. So, best case scenario for the players of random quasi-chapters...a box of "Heroes of the Crimson Fists" ---- a plastic sprue kit which includes 2-4 named characters? Maybe. A very distant, minimal, tiny maybe.

I don't agree, GW's business model has completely changed, they have been putting our more models now than they ever have, at the moment they are pushing the new chaos update, Primaris which is the most important thing for them to do at the moment especially considering the lore, plus they are changing the whole game with this edition, once things settle down I think we'll see much more character models getting redone. They've realised the importance of their fan base as well, they thought they were a miniature company, then 30k came and they realised that their business should be gaming and that their main fanbase is hardcore fans, fans that love the game and the lore etc. It was literally 30k that done it, before that sucess they couldn't give a feth about the gamers, I mean what company would say 'we're a miniature company' knowing that their fans like the game.' now all they can do is say 'we care about what you think' If only they did market research 20 years ago.

"Now to play devil's adocate to my own opinion...it is "possible" that GW will see the light and may start to consider doing boxes of 3-4 hero models on a single sprue (something they should already be doing). You have one sprue, one SKU, etc. So, best case scenario for the players of random quasi-chapters...a box of "Heroes of the Crimson Fists" ---- a plastic sprue kit which includes 2-4 named characters? Maybe. A very distant, minimal, tiny maybe." - look a the triumvirates, I think you're wrong their mate. They've released a lot of characters, they might do the 3-4 model units but they'll still do characters and 10 man squads, they'd be stupid to feth with that. Seriously though count the new characters, you'll be surprised with how many they've released this last year. I don't see why they'd change there business model, then released gak loads of characters when they aren't planning on doing characters etc. in the future, doesn't make any sense. They would stop doing characters now if that was the case.

Gitdakka wrote:Legion of the damned!

yes please!


SALAMANDERS! Please update the tan-man and make an upgrade sprue.

Delvarus, you're welcome to disagree...but I don't believe I'm wrong. The plastic model triumvirates you've mentioned are a perfect example.

They're not special characters for sub-chapters of random marines. They're major characters in basic "classic" races or armies. The Grey Knights got a character and they tried to launch a new Eldar line. Some others were simply remakes of existing major characters in the 40K universe.

The other characters are major heroes in their respective armies which have their own codices. We didn't see any characters show up from the Ravenguard or Imperial Fists or Ironhands, etc. Of course you'll see new or revised characters for the big four, but that's not what we're talking about here is it?

I'd like to be proven wrong, but I sincerely doubt it. Now, if GW for some reason decides to launch a new chapter to join the major four...perhaps you'd be lucky. But I'll believe that when you see Codex: Imperial Fists, or whatever. Then you can expect your plastic Lysander, etc.

 Elbows wrote:
Delvarus, you're welcome to disagree...but I don't believe I'm wrong. The plastic model triumvirates you've mentioned are a perfect example.

They're not special characters for sub-chapters of random marines. They're major characters in basic "classic" races or armies. The Grey Knights got a character and they tried to launch a new Eldar line. Some others were simply remakes of existing major characters in the 40K universe.

The other characters are major heroes in their respective armies which have their own codices. We didn't see any characters show up from the Ravenguard or Imperial Fists or Ironhands, etc. Of course you'll see new or revised characters for the big four, but that's not what we're talking about here is it?

I'd like to be proven wrong, but I sincerely doubt it. Now, if GW for some reason decides to launch a new chapter to join the major four...perhaps you'd be lucky. But I'll believe that when you see Codex: Imperial Fists, or whatever. Then you can expect your plastic Lysander, etc.

Whats your evidence or why do you think they aren't going to do marine characters though? They would have started to kill them off in the lore I would think, especially during the great rift, if they aren't going to replace or update the character, it would be a great opportunity for some interesting lore, killing off some of the long loved characters. I don't see any reason whatsoever for them not updating marine characters especially the ones that already have models. They might not get a codex, really doubt they will but they will replace lysander etc in my opinion, unless GW gives us a reason for why they won't, which as of this moment they haven't.

Because there is a HUGE difference in production costs between a plastic sprue character (the direction they're going) and the days past where they could rapidly and cheaply produce less-prominent characters. Those days are gone, and we don't know how long GW will keep the agin resin characters from the smaller non-codex factions around.

I'm referring to characters like:

White Scars Commander (the bike guy)
Vulkan He'Stan (resin)
Lysander (resin)
Marshal Helbrecht (resin)
Pedro Kantor (resin)
Kor'Sarro Khan (resin)
Legionnaire Sergeant (resin)
Ultramarines Cap. Sicarius (resin), etc.

All of these guys were released as metals or later resins because it was cheap and easy to do so. They're not big selling models, and when they're cheap to produce they don't have to be. However, for GW to justify doing all the work to produce a plastic sprue kit for each of them, they'd have to be hot sellers (or...as I mentioned, combined into boxes somehow). Now, it's GW so it's possible these guys'll hang around for another five years in resin, but I do not think you'll seeing any of these "lesser known" Space Marine chapters get new heroes/characters. Again, unless one of their respective chapters gets an upgrade to become as important as the Ultramarines, Blood Angels, Dark Angels or Space Wolves.

And GW has been slowly creeping away from resin miniatures whenever possible (listings disappearing slowly). I just don't believe you're going to see some renaissance wherein we get several dozen lesser characters produced in plastic. Again, I'd like to be wrong, but I don't think I am. There is a reason why a lot of the old guard characters just up and disappeared without reason. GW couldn't justify producing or stocking them any longer (remember when each of the famed regiments had their own special captains? All gone, lol). If it's not going to earn big bucks, GW is not going to invest in making it an expensive sprue.

In the past we could have counted on GW producing cool characters even without models (entirely units in the early codices had never been models...you were expected to make up your own). Those days are gone though. There used to be a LOT more named characters in the codices, even plenty who didn't have models.

 Elbows wrote:
Because there is a HUGE difference in production costs between a plastic sprue character (the direction they're going) and the days past where they could rapidly and cheaply produce less-prominent characters. Those days are gone, and we don't know how long GW will keep the agin resin characters from the smaller non-codex factions around.

I'm referring to characters like:

White Scars Commander (the bike guy)
Vulkan He'Stan (resin)
Lysander (resin)
Marshal Helbrecht (resin)
Pedro Kantor (resin)
Kor'Sarro Khan (resin)
Legionnaire Sergeant (resin)
Ultramarines Cap. Sicarius (resin), etc.

All of these guys were released as metals or later resins because it was cheap and easy to do so. They're not big selling models, and when they're cheap to produce they don't have to be. However, for GW to justify doing all the work to produce a plastic sprue kit for each of them, they'd have to be hot sellers (or...as I mentioned, combined into boxes somehow). Now, it's GW so it's possible these guys'll hang around for another five years in resin, but I do not think you'll seeing any of these "lesser known" Space Marine chapters get new heroes/characters. Again, unless one of their respective chapters gets an upgrade to become as important as the Ultramarines, Blood Angels, Dark Angels or Space Wolves.

And GW has been slowly creeping away from resin miniatures whenever possible (listings disappearing slowly). I just don't believe you're going to see some renaissance wherein we get several dozen lesser characters produced in plastic. Again, I'd like to be wrong, but I don't think I am. There is a reason why a lot of the old guard characters just up and disappeared without reason. GW couldn't justify producing or stocking them any longer (remember when each of the famed regiments had their own special captains? All gone, lol). If it's not going to earn big bucks, GW is not going to invest in making it an expensive sprue.

In the past we could have counted on GW producing cool characters even without models (entirely units in the early codices had never been models...you were expected to make up your own). Those days are gone though. There used to be a LOT more named characters in the codices, even plenty who didn't have models.

There is no difference in production costs for character models, they cost more because they don't sell as much as normal units, it has nothing to do with production costs, as for designing, a sculptor is going to get paid more for sculpting a full unit, especially with the detail in them now like in custodes, which are like characters in themselves with the detail. They've already invested into new technology for plastic, they have upped the price, businesses don't take hits, if it costs more to produce they up the price. Saint Celestine or inquisitor greufax aren't big selling models. Sisters are not amazing sells, not until they get a plastic release that is, same with the inquisition. They don't have to be big selling models, take DG they have gak tonnes of characters, they are so many they aren't going to be hot sellers, people will have the preference with the models they are going to buy, mostly relating to rules. Plastic is far cheaper to make than any resin or metal. How do you know that GW aren't going to justify releasing them, especially now that they are using plastic which is far cheaper. Also with models once they've made the molds they make their investment back on the long term, so they can create models that aren't as popular as the hotcakes and they will still make a decent return.

Incorrect, producing in plastic is MONUMENTALLY more expensive. If you don't understand that then you're just shouting at the wind and nothing I say will explain that for ya. Carry on.

 Elbows wrote:
Incorrect, producing in plastic is MONUMENTALLY more expensive. If you don't understand that then you're just shouting at the wind and nothing I say will explain that for ya. Carry on.

Resin is more expensive, its also harder to work with, metal is also much more expensive, look how much sisters models cost, plus its 'metal', metal is far more expensive. 'Monumentally more expensive', okay how much more does it cost?

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

 Elbows wrote:
Incorrect, producing in plastic is MONUMENTALLY more expensive. If you don't understand that then you're just shouting at the wind and nothing I say will explain that for ya. Carry on.

Resin is more expensive so is metal look how much sisters models cost, plus its 'metal', metal is far more expensive. 'Monumentally more expensive', okay how much more does it cost?

Not the unit cost. Unit cost for plastic is cheap. It's the overheads, making the mold. That is much more for plastic than for resin or metal. So for plastic kits they need to be sure they'll sell volume, whereas they can take a punt on a resin cast and if it's only so so it's not a big deal.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

 Elbows wrote:
Incorrect, producing in plastic is MONUMENTALLY more expensive. If you don't understand that then you're just shouting at the wind and nothing I say will explain that for ya. Carry on.

Resin is more expensive, its also harder to work with, metal is also much more expensive, look how much sisters models cost, plus its 'metal', metal is far more expensive. 'Monumentally more expensive', okay how much more does it cost?

You don't think a mould costing less than £100 for resin character vs. a mould costing ~£30K+ for a plastic character has a bit of an impact on cost?

Plastic is dirt cheap if you produce enormous quantities. If your quantities are low then it's ludicrously expensive (why do you think forgeworld don't use it if it's cheaper as you claim?) GW doesn't move hundreds of thousands of units of their stuff like other businesses. That cost is a major consideration.

They number they expect to sell dictates the price point. If the price is high then the number sold is smaller which drives the price higher still....

 Scott-S6 wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

 Elbows wrote:
Incorrect, producing in plastic is MONUMENTALLY more expensive. If you don't understand that then you're just shouting at the wind and nothing I say will explain that for ya. Carry on.

Resin is more expensive, its also harder to work with, metal is also much more expensive, look how much sisters models cost, plus its 'metal', metal is far more expensive. 'Monumentally more expensive', okay how much more does it cost?

You don't think a mould costing less than £100 for resin character vs. a mould costing ~£30K+ for a plastic character has a bit of an impact on cost?

Plastic is dirt cheap if you produce enormous quantities. If your quantities are low then it's ludicrously expensive (why do you think forgeworld don't use it if it's cheaper as you claim?) GW doesn't move hundreds of thousands of units of their stuff like other businesses. That cost is a major consideration.

They number they expect to sell dictates the price point. If the price is high then the number sold is smaller which drives the price higher still....

FW don't use plastic because its nowhere as detailed as resin. "They number they expect to sell dictates the price point. If the price is high then the number sold is smaller which drives the price higher still" not true, the price they set is based on short or long-run marginal cost curves and short or long term profit maximising based on marginal, average cost of production. They sell at the price that they can maximise "If the price is high then the number sold is smaller which drives the price higher still" this isn't true at all in economics that is only true of there is a limit on supply like diamonds, where they can inflate demand and set the price as they control the market. there isn't, they can sell as much as they foresee selling, they can still sell high costing products at high demand.

It absolutely is. As you say - they're looking at short to medium term return which means amortising the cost of the mould. If two models have the same mould cost but one is going to sell half as many units it's either going to be more expensive or not get made. You only need to look at the large character models to see this - mortarian is going to have a mould cost very similar to a valkyrie but costs twice as much. It should be obvious that he's going to sell in much smaller quantities.

As for FW use resin because it's more detailed - no. With the volumes they do plastic would be impossible. We have a pretty good idea of the volumes they move of the larger items like titans that come with numbered certificates. The prices of those models would be into low five figures if they were plastic - for the most popular ones.

 Scott-S6 wrote:
It absolutely is. As you say - they're looking at short to medium term return which means amortising the cost of the mould. If two models have the same mould cost but one is going to sell half as many units it's either going to be more expensive or not get made. You only need to look at the large character models to see this - mortarian is going to have a mould cost very similar to a valkyrie but costs twice as much. It should be obvious that he's going to sell in much smaller quantities.

As for FW use resin because it's more detailed - no. With the volumes they do plastic would be impossible. We have a pretty good idea of the volumes they move of the larger items like titans that come with numbered certificates. The prices of those models would be into low five figures if they were plastic.

Well GW continue to replace molds for models that don't sell a lot, they still replace metal moulds so that isn't true. They take into account the models that don't sell as much and those that do and set the cost based on that, a business does not just sell the best hottest product, they will sell anything they can make profit on, that's why GW probably do well with long term marginal/average costing. They will also most likely have a deal with the factory they use and the cost for molds is nothing really as they change them every few years, plus molds need replaced due to overuse, so more popular molds will be replaced more often. Plus GW are lucky, they really don't advertise or need to, nowhere near the same kind of advertisement that normal businesses do, they are rather unique. None of us have a clue about the real cost of production at the end of the day, but the popular - not popular model argument isn't true otherwise they'd ditch all their unpopular molds.