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So, aggressors. Specifically raven guard aggressors who use a stratagem to deploy via deep strike, but still during deployment so they still show up anywhere 1st turn AND don't count as moving. They also have a chapter master and a 'when a model dies, it gets to fight / shoot again' banna waver and a LT.

These guys are stupid. By some miracle, I actually managed to kill a unit of 5 during my shooting phase, and during said shooting phase - MY shooting phase - these 5 models killed like 40 orks, including all of my lootas. And yes, I did kill them, but it cost me like a quarter of my army in MY shooting phase. And if they do live long enough to get a shooting phase, basically anything within 18" gets removed from the table.

I mean............Each model getting 12+2D6 bolter shots at 18", rerolling hits and wounds of 1, for 37 points is flying rodent gak BONKERS. And just for fun, if by some miracle you survive their shooting, get past screeners AND get them in melee, they also have free power fists. They could be double the price and half the shots and STILL be better than anything in the ork index. And just for kicks, they can advance without penalty to shooting, for some damn reason. Ditto for T5.

And forget about deep striking near them, as the auspex array will just auto-remove ANYTHING in my index. Bar none. And the raven guard -1 to hit for me is just gravy.

I mean......what the hell am I supposed to do? I also have a small thousand sons army, and aggressors seem completely OP to anything in that codex too. I'm pretty sure they'd deal serious damage to even my defiler.

Am I missing something?

Without the Raven Guard strat, they are just ok. The strat is where the problem lies.

 Kap'n Krump wrote:

I mean............Each model getting 12+2D6 bolter shots at 18", rerolling hits and wounds of 1, for 37 points

They don't though. Aggressors don't reroll hits or wounds.

If you're going to claim outside buffs, and only list the points of the unit getting those buffs, you're making a bad faith argument.

Ok, how about this, for comparison, one unbuffed, 37 point agressor has about the firepower of 20 shoota boyz (120 points). (changed from 30, a typo). That doesn't seem fair.

And besides, buffs, especially space marine buffs, are kind of a part of this game now. It's not really unreasonable to consider these buffs if they're always present. Granted, they have to pay for them, but all these overlapping buff auras create some truly broken combos.

 DarknessEternal wrote:

 Kap'n Krump wrote:

I mean............Each model getting 12+2D6 bolter shots at 18", rerolling hits and wounds of 1, for 37 points

They don't though. Aggressors don't reroll hits or wounds.

If you're going to claim outside buffs, and only list the points of the unit getting those buffs, you're making a bad faith argument.

I'd agree, but that's the gold standard for dakkadakka, so it's only fair.

After all, we all knew Conscripts were getting 4 shots in rapid fire and were immune to morale for 3ppm back in the day.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kap'n Krump wrote:
I mean, for comparison, one unbuffed, 37 point agressor has about the firepower of 30 shoota boyz (120 points). That just doesn't seem fair.

\
There is, also, this.

 Kap'n Krump wrote:
Ok, how about this, for comparison, one unbuffed, 37 point agressor has about the firepower of 20 shoota boyz (120 points). (changed from 30, a typo). That doesn't seem fair.

But he doesn't have the model footprint, the close combat prowess or the wounds of those Orks.

And again, an unbuffed Aggressor is slow, and without stratagems (unbuffed) will struggle to get close. The issue is the very powerful synergy between the Raven Guard stratagem and the Aggressor's need to be close.

And besides, buffs, especially space marine buffs, are kind of a part of this game now. It's not really unreasonable to consider these buffs if they're always present. Granted, they have to pay for them, but all these overlapping buff auras create some truly broken combos.

Unless you factor that into the cost, and the various defensive buffs you might have, you shouldn't factor in buffs for a test like this.

Raven Guard Agressors are very nasty, they don't care if you are horde or tanks, they will destroy you by sheer number of dice. I have seen 36 agressors destroy 6 Leman Russes turn 1 with shooting+punching them to death in a big tournament.

Of course, they are designed as an anti horde unit, and in meele they are more than capable of fighting agaisnt elite units or even vehicles, so yeah, agaisnt orks they are very powerfull.

I think they're a bit of a ridiculous unit that really didn't need to be created. I have yet to use them despite being a Raven Guard player, but I've seen how effective they can be.

 Valkyrie wrote:
I think they're a bit of a ridiculous unit that really didn't need to be created. I have yet to use them despite being a Raven Guard player, but I've seen how effective they can be.

Gotta sell new models to marine players, boy

 Kaiyanwang wrote:

 Valkyrie wrote:
I think they're a bit of a ridiculous unit that really didn't need to be created. I have yet to use them despite being a Raven Guard player, but I've seen how effective they can be.

Gotta sell new models to marine players, boy

Lets be honest. Without marine players we wouldn't have GW at this point.

If that is positive or negative I let it to you to decide.

 Galas wrote:

 Kaiyanwang wrote:

 Valkyrie wrote:
I think they're a bit of a ridiculous unit that really didn't need to be created. I have yet to use them despite being a Raven Guard player, but I've seen how effective they can be.

Gotta sell new models to marine players, boy

Lets be honest. Without marine players we wouldn't have GW at this point.

If that is positive or negative I let it to you to decide.

Can we get a separate thank you thread?

The Ork codex isn’t out yet, so maybe don’t focus on how many points Lootas and Shootas are right now.

Aggressors are trash vs the field, though. Drukhari laugh their asses off.

Just did some rolling. 5 normal aggressors do like 16-20 ork kills per turn... so not the worst. Geuss it might be the Raven guard ones because honestly their flamers sound more appealing if I have to move them that close anyway.

 Kap'n Krump wrote:
Ok, how about this, for comparison, one unbuffed, 37 point agressor has about the firepower of 20 shoota boyz (120 points). (changed from 30, a typo). That doesn't seem fair.

Pray tell how durable this 37 point model is.

I'll give you a hint: 18 points per T5 3+ wound is NOT durable once you account multi-damage weapons.

Pretty much all the Gravis models have impressive output for their cost, but comically low durability for that same cost. They can certainly punch over their weight, but by the same token, they will die to the paltry survivors into pretty even measure.

I say this everytime one of these threads comes up.

You took paper into a match against scissors. The unit is not broken, this instance of a matchup is not game breaking either.

If your local meta is seeing a ton of these start going mechanized and spam rockets. They will stop taking those units after a couple games of you stomping them. Massed bolters, just like massed autocannons, or massed anything that is anti infantry will not do squat to massed mechanization. S4 is not going to take down a whole lot if everything is screened or hiding in a transport.

Is this in a local tournament scene? If not, tell the guy running them you'd rather not play because the game balance at the moment makes the game boring for you.

There's nothing wrong with telling people you're not enjoying the game. Most people don't have access to all the units in their codex to rapidly evolve their army list in the face of some beardy opposition.

"There's not a solid solution to those aggressors you run so I'd rather not waste another game trying it out. Thanks, though."

Nothing wrong with politely refusing a game.

 sfshilo wrote:
I say this everytime one of these threads comes up.

You took paper into a match against scissors. The unit is not broken, this instance of a matchup is not game breaking either.

If your local meta is seeing a ton of these start going mechanized and spam rockets. They will stop taking those units after a couple games of you stomping them. Massed bolters, just like massed autocannons, or massed anything that is anti infantry will not do squat to massed mechanization. S4 is not going to take down a whole lot if everything is screened or hiding in a transport.

Aggressors are strength 5 and AP-1, yes? So with re-rolls to hit and wound, that's 14 wounds to a Baneblade (or a Rhino).

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 sfshilo wrote:
I say this everytime one of these threads comes up.

You took paper into a match against scissors. The unit is not broken, this instance of a matchup is not game breaking either.

If your local meta is seeing a ton of these start going mechanized and spam rockets. They will stop taking those units after a couple games of you stomping them. Massed bolters, just like massed autocannons, or massed anything that is anti infantry will not do squat to massed mechanization. S4 is not going to take down a whole lot if everything is screened or hiding in a transport.

Aggressors are strength 5 and AP-1, yes? So with re-rolls to hit and wound, that's 14 wounds to a Baneblade (or a Rhino).

No, they're not.

The Grenade Launcher is Assault D6, Str4, Ap0.
The Gun is Assault 6, Str4, Ap0.

Both have an 18 inch range.

Aggressors are not a good unit in a general sense, on a competitive table.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 sfshilo wrote:
I say this everytime one of these threads comes up.

You took paper into a match against scissors. The unit is not broken, this instance of a matchup is not game breaking either.

If your local meta is seeing a ton of these start going mechanized and spam rockets. They will stop taking those units after a couple games of you stomping them. Massed bolters, just like massed autocannons, or massed anything that is anti infantry will not do squat to massed mechanization. S4 is not going to take down a whole lot if everything is screened or hiding in a transport.

Aggressors are strength 5 and AP-1, yes? So with re-rolls to hit and wound, that's 14 wounds to a Baneblade (or a Rhino).

Inceptors are the ones with two mini-heavy bolters.

 Galas wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 sfshilo wrote:
I say this everytime one of these threads comes up.

You took paper into a match against scissors. The unit is not broken, this instance of a matchup is not game breaking either.

If your local meta is seeing a ton of these start going mechanized and spam rockets. They will stop taking those units after a couple games of you stomping them. Massed bolters, just like massed autocannons, or massed anything that is anti infantry will not do squat to massed mechanization. S4 is not going to take down a whole lot if everything is screened or hiding in a transport.

Aggressors are strength 5 and AP-1, yes? So with re-rolls to hit and wound, that's 14 wounds to a Baneblade (or a Rhino).

Inceptors are the ones with two mini-heavy bolters.

D:< someone was wounding Zarakynel on 5's with aggressors in my local area.

Which do you think are better, Blood Angels or Raven Guard for Aggressors?

It's a gimmick list but it definitely stomps certain matchups. I really don't think you should be able to SFTS more than 1-2 units. This goes for the other factions that can do this as well.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Which do you think are better, Blood Angels or Raven Guard for Aggressors?

Raven Guard can throw them into cover and get them firing twice for a paltry 1CP.

Get an Ancient nearby and you're set.

 sfshilo wrote:
I say this everytime one of these threads comes up.

You took paper into a match against scissors. The unit is not broken, this instance of a matchup is not game breaking either.

If your local meta is seeing a ton of these start going mechanized and spam rockets. They will stop taking those units after a couple games of you stomping them. Massed bolters, just like massed autocannons, or massed anything that is anti infantry will not do squat to massed mechanization. S4 is not going to take down a whole lot if everything is screened or hiding in a transport.

I think you're missing the part where the Raven Guard aggressor cannot be countered by a typical Ork list.

The obvious counters are to deploy in tanks or hide behind terrain. What sane Ork player has few enough models that he can hide them or is deliberately gimping himself by bringing transports? In order for him to counter the aggressors, he would have to specifically tailor his list to beat them in that single matchup, and basically autolose to other lists.

And Raven guard aggressors ARE bonkers. A single unit of 3 reliably kicks out 100+ shots, has powerfists, and will start either 9" away, which he does after you attempt to seize, or hides them where you can't hit them until he's ready to fight. The only way an average Ork player can counter that would be to not go second and roll really well for saves, which is hardly something in his control.

And it's not even like if he went mechanized he would stop them. Now there's no screen, so the aggressors just walk to within 3" of your deployment turn 1 and punch a vehicle to death instead, unless you were lucky to get a deep deployment zone and deply in the back where congrats, you're now in a shooting match with Raven guard at long range as orks. And even if you magically made his aggressors useless against orks somehow, that ignores the part that aggressors are incredibly versatile against most lists. They have weight of fire to ensure hits on eldar, flexibility to deal with infantry or tanks IG brings, etc. They are a very powerful unit in the right circumstances.

I have a rough time with them using admech and IG, and those are codexes that have tricks to survive the onslaught if played correctly. Playing against that as an Ork must be horrible.

 Kap'n Krump wrote:
Ok, how about this, for comparison, one unbuffed, 37 point agressor has about the firepower of 20 shoota boyz (120 points). (changed from 30, a typo). That doesn't seem fair.

And besides, buffs, especially space marine buffs, are kind of a part of this game now. It's not really unreasonable to consider these buffs if they're always present. Granted, they have to pay for them, but all these overlapping buff auras create some truly broken combos.

uhhh 120 points of shoota boys has 40 attacks in CC and 20 wounds to his 2 wounds and 2 attacks that hit on 4's.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Galas wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 sfshilo wrote:
I say this everytime one of these threads comes up.

You took paper into a match against scissors. The unit is not broken, this instance of a matchup is not game breaking either.

If your local meta is seeing a ton of these start going mechanized and spam rockets. They will stop taking those units after a couple games of you stomping them. Massed bolters, just like massed autocannons, or massed anything that is anti infantry will not do squat to massed mechanization. S4 is not going to take down a whole lot if everything is screened or hiding in a transport.

Aggressors are strength 5 and AP-1, yes? So with re-rolls to hit and wound, that's 14 wounds to a Baneblade (or a Rhino).

Inceptors are the ones with two mini-heavy bolters.

D:< someone was wounding Zarakynel on 5's with aggressors in my local area.

DW aggressors using the +Wd strategem?

 LunarSol wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Galas wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 sfshilo wrote:
I say this everytime one of these threads comes up.

You took paper into a match against scissors. The unit is not broken, this instance of a matchup is not game breaking either.

If your local meta is seeing a ton of these start going mechanized and spam rockets. They will stop taking those units after a couple games of you stomping them. Massed bolters, just like massed autocannons, or massed anything that is anti infantry will not do squat to massed mechanization. S4 is not going to take down a whole lot if everything is screened or hiding in a transport.

Aggressors are strength 5 and AP-1, yes? So with re-rolls to hit and wound, that's 14 wounds to a Baneblade (or a Rhino).

Inceptors are the ones with two mini-heavy bolters.

D:< someone was wounding Zarakynel on 5's with aggressors in my local area.

DW aggressors using the +Wd strategem?

No, they were Raven Guard because they infiltrated. I blenderized them bottom of Turn 1, but suffering 14 wounds on a 20 wound creature that cost 666 points really stung.

Agressors are only really good in a raven gaurd list...because of OP stratagems that let you start in effective range after you know who is going first.

That stratagem is OP no matter what codex you get it in.