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 ingtaer wrote:
Whilst this tangent is interesting how do people seeing this effecting their ingame use?

Cause really I don't. If you had the Republic as a faction, for example, there is no need whatsoever to change any of the base stats from the ARC, Z-95 or Y-Wing. They could if they wish change up the dial, and they will likely increase the hull on the Y etc. but as it would only be competing for design space and playability against ships from the same faction what would actually be the point? The Y-Wing is the only torpedo/turret ship, the Z is the filler, interceptors would be the ETA, Aethersprite and V-Wing etc.

Well, so far we see a couple things:

1) Few Shields, even on heavy fighters such as the ARC and Y-wing

2) Red Barrel Rolls

Plus, these are late war ships, and so I could see there being space to downgrade earlier ships in some manner. Also, with the baked-in ship abilities, it is now possible to assign cons to ships that players can't just avoid taking.

Though yeah, I don't really see much change to existing ships, asides from maybe making a separate "Clone Z-95".

If youre using Legends continuity as a referenc e, then Star Wars is absolutely stagnant. There were starfighters with hyerdrives, starfighters that were faster than an A-Wing or TIE Interceptor, starfighters with x/y/z thousands of years before the Battle of Yavin.

In terms of canon its a but less clear because we dont have very much to refer to, but the reality is that from what ive seen pf the new canon, any ongoing technological development and improvement by this point in the setting is going to be a very finite incremental step, were talking small fractions of a percentage in performance gains/losses ("trying to squeeze blood from a stone" is a good phrase to describe it) - inconsequential and immeasurable on a small scale like a one-on-one dogfight, but a major difference maker on an industrial scale where youre talking tends or hundreds of thousands, or even millions of starfighters on either side of the fight.

Also, in regards to looking at service lives of combat aircraft, its also a good idea to look at them over time, as aircraft technology has matured the service lives of aircraft has grown. World War 2 through Vietnam, front line fighters and bombers were being phased in and out of service every few years, state of the art fighters of the Korean War were considered obsolete by the time of Vietnam some 10 years later. By the 90s and early 2000s those service lives were being measured in decades, 20, 30, 40 years. The F-22 and F-35 are expected to be in service 50-60 years, and right now Boeing is talking to the USAF about a new and improved F-15X to support the 5th gen fighters with an anticipated service life of about 80 years.

At the point of technological progression were seeing in Star Wars, its not unreasonable to expect fighters built a hundred or more years apart to have close enough performance characteristics to be able to successfully challenge one another in combat. Devoid of a technological singularity-like event (which appears to have occurred in the distant past of the setting, at best, rather than being an event in its imminent future), technological progress in such a setting will approach an asymptotic plateau where the existing technologies are refined and improved in order to produce ever-diminishing minor improvements in performance until it truly does stagnate fully.

Grey Templar wrote:The Defender isn't an advancement. Its just a fighter where the Empire bothered to put more existing tech instead of following their existing doctrine of cheap disposable fighters. All of the tech already existed. The Empire then said "Put all of it on one chassis". A feat which had been done many many times before in other fighter designs. It was just a new package with the same old technology inside it.

And the end result is a fighter completely superior to every superiority fighter in existence of its day. Faster than an A-Wing, better shields then an X-wing, all coupled with the guns of an A-Wing and Y-Wing combined and a hyperdrive to boot. The power requirements alone are something to consider as a technological advance, much less the size of the components to fit all that in to one hull.

Grey Templar wrote:Hyperdrive Rings are just an example of a cost saving measure. You design a ship that doesn't have a hyperdrive so you can make it cheaper/pack in more gear. Then you also offer a Hyperdrive ring for those customers who want to have that ship but also with hyperdrive capability. Its not like prior to the Clone wars no fighters had integrated hyperdrives.

The snubs that had integrated hyperdrives were heavy ships. The lightest one shown was Grevious' custom job, the rest were ARC-170 or X-Wing in size. It has been noted numerous times as to its rarity.

Grey Templar wrote:Star Wars is a old universe with little to no technological advancement. Only new applications of existing technology with the very rare new thing being found. Heck, even the Death Star's super laser was really just a inventive tweak of ancient Sith super weapon technology.

Incorrect as demonstrated above. Tech advancement does not necessarily equate to leaps in technology, which is what you are conflating here.

Grey Templar wrote:
Slapping a Hyperdrive on a fighter isn't an advancement. Its just swapping in existing tech.

Sure it is, just as much as slapping a radar array on to a prop plane so it can do night fighting in WWII, and then calling the radar array in an F-14 Tomcat capable of guiding 6 100-mile-range missiles not a tech advancement.

The hyperdrive isn't a tech advancement, agreed. The tech advancements one that is small enough to fit in a snub fighter, can be powered by the onboard power generator, and fast enough so that the pilot won't be useless on arrival after a jump.

ingtaer wrote:Whilst this tangent is interesting how do people seeing this effecting their ingame use?

Cause really I don't. If you had the Republic as a faction, for example, there is no need whatsoever to change any of the base stats from the ARC, Z-95 or Y-Wing. They could if they wish change up the dial, and they will likely increase the hull on the Y etc. but as it would only be competing for design space and playability against ships from the same faction what would actually be the point? The Y-Wing is the only torpedo/turret ship, the Z is the filler, interceptors would be the ETA, Aethersprite and V-Wing etc.

Probably as much as choosing between an Imperial I or Imperial II Star Destroyer would be in Armada or a Marine Tactical Squad and a Primaris Tactical Squad in 40K.

The TIE Defender's big innovation was that the Empire decided to throw money at it. Shovels and shovels of money, making each individual defender a hugely pricey piece of kit. Rich though the empire is, they couldn't afford to do that for the 70? odd TIES an ISD lugs about the place.

And no, I don't think there's much technological development. There's definitely changes of scope, though, requiring the production of different types of Starfighters to suit the new normal.

Pre Clone-wars, the Republic had no standing army. So no standard kit. The galaxy was far from peaceful, though - lots of pirates, Hutt gangsters, etc. so some form of fighter technology was always necessary.

So, each planet either made it's own (Naboo N-1) or bought stuff on the open market (Y-wing/Z-95). Generally these would either have a hyperdrive for convoy escort, or none for PDF duty.

Then you have the Jedi - individual agents who need to get around the galaxy quickly, but don't need to carry much. Hence the starfighter with the Hyperdrive ring - you can put a huge, class 0.75 hyperdrive in the thing which integrates with your onboard astromech.

Compare with the similar sized A-wing - a scouting and reconnaissance fighter/interceptor. It wants a hyperdrive, but it doesn't need to be fast through hyperspace or to calculate a lot of co-ordinates. So you build a low speed hyperdrive direct into the chassis, in place of the astromech, and relieve your scouting fighter of the necessity of returning to a fixed docking ring floating in space.

Clone wars, the "meta" changes - you need to take down a lot of disposable fighters - hence gunships like the ARC-170.

Post clone wars, the Empire decides to do things on the cheap, hence TIE fighters. The rebellion makes do with whatever they can buy/scavenge/steal. The T-65 was a prototype nicked from INCOM.

By the time of the First Order, X-wings have been upgraded to the T-70 - which is probably the ship that INCOM were working on 30 years ago but hadn't finished when the designs were pinched. Just a more polished version.

No new technological advancements, just ways of using the same tech in different situations.

 Graphite wrote:
The TIE Defender's big innovation was that the Empire decided to throw money at it. Shovels and shovels of money, making each individual defender a hugely pricey piece of kit. Rich though the empire is, they couldn't afford to do that for the 70? odd TIES an ISD lugs about the place.

You still need the tech to be available to throw the money at. Many of those techniques were specifically designed for the Defender, and not just because they were already available. There is a LOT of tech squeezed in to a hull that has less room then the Tie Advanced.

 Graphite wrote:
And no, I don't think there's much technological development. There's definitely changes of scope, though, requiring the production of different types of Starfighters to suit the new normal.

There can be a huge difference between "not much" and "none".

 Graphite wrote:
Pre Clone-wars, the Republic had no standing army. So no standard kit. The galaxy was far from peaceful, though - lots of pirates, Hutt gangsters, etc. so some form of fighter technology was always necessary.

So, each planet either made it's own (Naboo N-1) or bought stuff on the open market (Y-wing/Z-95). Generally these would either have a hyperdrive for convoy escort, or none for PDF duty.

Then you have the Jedi - individual agents who need to get around the galaxy quickly, but don't need to carry much. Hence the starfighter with the Hyperdrive ring - you can put a huge, class 0.75 hyperdrive in the thing which integrates with your onboard astromech.

And wartime also increases tech development if the supporting infrastructure is not totally devastated. Most of the shipyards were not targeted during the Clone Wars. Cloning communities, droid factories, medical facilities, yes, but not the shipyards and fighter factories or their development firms. For a comparison, read up on the differences between the Clone Wars and the Battletech Succession Wars.

 Graphite wrote:
Compare with the similar sized A-wing - a scouting and reconnaissance fighter/interceptor. It wants a hyperdrive, but it doesn't need to be fast through hyperspace or to calculate a lot of co-ordinates. So you build a low speed hyperdrive direct into the chassis, in place of the astromech, and relieve your scouting fighter of the necessity of returning to a fixed docking ring floating in space.

Actually you need a fast enough hyperdrive to carry a standard pilot through the length of the jumps in sufficient time. Jedi often used deep meditation techniques to minimize the affects of long travel in a single seat.

 Graphite wrote:
Clone wars, the "meta" changes - you need to take down a lot of disposable fighters - hence gunships like the ARC-170.

The ARC-170 was a long range recon craft, much like certain versions of the Y-Wing (ARC stands for Agressive ReCon). A recon craft tied to a system and unable to jump to another one is rather limited. And if their performance at the Battle of Coruscant was any indication, it was not designed to take on a lot of disposable fighters, but be tough and punch out lighter capital ships.

 Graphite wrote:
Post clone wars, the Empire decides to do things on the cheap, hence TIE fighters. The rebellion makes do with whatever they can buy/scavenge/steal. The T-65 was a prototype nicked from INCOM.

And by "nicked" you mean "provided to them by the engineers who designed the thing".

 Graphite wrote:
By the time of the First Order, X-wings have been upgraded to the T-70 - which is probably the ship that INCOM were working on 30 years ago but hadn't finished when the designs were pinched. Just a more polished version.

Any references to supposition up? The Star Wars Wiki seems to think that the T-70 was developed for the New Republic, not a design pulled out of mothballs.

 Graphite wrote:
No new technological advancements, just ways of using the same tech in different situations.

And requiring new forms and innovations of the same tech in order to achieve those aims. You are equating the radar used in the de Havilland Mosquito NF in the 1940s with the 1970s Grumman F-14's AWG-9 radar. Sure, they are the same basic thing, but only the ignorant would consider there being no technological advancements between them.

There we are, Clone Wars announced at GenCon.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
First up, Sith infiltrator and Delta 7

 ingtaer wrote:
There we are, Clone Wars announced at GenCon.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
First up, Sith infiltrator and Delta 7

I'm a genius. Don't quote me on that.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also... linky?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I found this:



Will update soonish?

Credit where credit is due, I said wed have Clone Wars within a year on page 1, didnt I?

So

Armada SSD is a thing, at 200USD, it's going to be a doozy to buy in CAD. Apparently between 12 and 18 inches long... so very, very small.

X-Wing
Mining Guild TIE for Scum
RZ-2 A-Wing for Resistance (with apossibility to shoot out the back)

FO Conversion pack (30USD)
Resistance Conversion pack (30USD)

Legion
Chewbacca (Operator)
Wookie Warriors (Melee Specialists)
Rebels Specialists
Imperial Specialists

The last two will have personnel upgrades for both existing squads and generic commanders.

No Clone Wars content until 2019, so far only confirmed for X-Wing and Legion, not Armada so far.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

chaos0xomega wrote:
Credit where credit is due, I said wed have Clone Wars within a year on page 1, didnt I?

5 Internet points for you.

Sorry for the lack of links Mathieu, was mobile and its a pita to sort. Here are the pics from Gold Squadron (I am now of the opinion that the CW pics are just generic faction pics and not necessarily the ships we will be getting);



Cant find the Delta 7 one at the moment.

These pics are doing the rounds of my local group, no idea if they are actually legit;

I've seen those too. I think it's too early for those leaks. I think they are Shapeways models stood on virtual bases.

Apparently they came from official Star Wars news site, I guess they are digital renders on digital bases to generate hype. Shame they don't have any ship stats or actions listed on bases.

The biggest shame I think is that by making all top pilots Initiative 5 when they don't deserve a 6, it will greatly limit other pilots' potential tournament time. I know Darth Maul is a fanfiction favourite and can do no wrong... but couldn't he have been a 4?

I'm curious to see if there is an actual roadmap of re-release of the V1 ships somewhere.

Never seen one mate, the closest I have seen is just the wave release schedule (as they are doing SC tournaments to celebrate each wave) but I cant even remember where I found that now, so much info in so little time is clogging my brain.
Next wave is Resistance and FO but beyond that, who knows?

Whilst this is a better option than barrel scraping the old EU / video games, I'm hoping its a good 9-12 months away so FFG can get a feel for and player/results based feedback on whats working or not in 2.0 and get a handle on points values

also the jedi flyer looks a lot like the old epic Eldar falcon

Kingsley wrote:I think this is more likely to impact Legion than X-Wing, to be honest.

To be honest, I think all three games (Armada, Legion and X-Wing) could benefit greatly from having more faction options besides Imperials and Rebels. Such as Separatists and the Republic, Resistance and the First Order. Hell, maybe they could split up the Scum & Villainy faction into ones for Mandalorians and the Hutt Cartel. Maybe make Naboo, the Chiss Ascendancy, the Wookiees or any other notable planetary government that has their own star ships into a separate faction. I don't know, I'm just spit-balling ideas here. I feel like Star Wars itself needs some more variety in interstellar factions. Which I will get into in a moment.

NH Gunsmith wrote:I wouldn't be opposed to Clone Wars ships in X-Wing. Some new factions could help avoid any more faction bloat for the Imperials and Rebels, since it is hard to find new design space in those factions as it is. Would give them time to come up with some new ideas for those factions instead of shoehorning something in just to release a new Imperial ship.

Agreed. Coming up with new ship or vehicle designs (be it for X-Wing, Armada or Legion) would be a major step towards making the military forces of the new canon just as expansive as the old legends canon. Plus whatever new designs FFG come up with, Disney/Lucasfilm could just pluck from the game and put it into their spinoff movies.

Charistoph wrote:The issue being that tech has advanced since that time, so either they are not true to their power (or lack thereof) or they are more powerful than they should be.

That being said, if Armada was still going forward I would be wanting to get my hands on some Venators and Acclamators. Interestingly enough, many of the current ships were considered designed and used during the Clone Wars, too.

Couldn't you hypothetically play a game of X-Wing or Armada with an Alliance to Restore the Republic versus the Confederacy of Independent Systems match though?

Stormonu wrote:I also agree that Clone Wars would do a heap more for Legion, but it'd be fun to see the ships in X-Wing as well. I don't think it'd hurt one bit to add both a Republic and Separatist faction to the game - and it's still all advanced technology, so the stats don't have to be inferior to even New Hope era, just "different".

They'd probably have to go that route game design wise anyways so that each faction would be mechanically balanced. Wouldn't be as fun playing Republic or Separatist if Rebels, Imperials, the Resistance or the First Order could easily curb-stomp them due to having outdated tech lore wise.

Crazy_Carnifex wrote:So, in short, we are looking at a timeframe that involves reasonable service lives for, at most, 3 Generations of tech. There are also a couple doctrinal moments that could impact the improvement of technology, namely the Empires shift to disposable TIE's, and the New Republics pacifism-induced stupidity.

I'm still salty that the New Republic didn't get to do anything of note or usefulness because of said "pacifism-induced stupidity" that you just mentioned. It was even touched upon in this Templin Institute video from a while back:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3XdYhYUEX3I

Which is why I hope that with the help of a somewhat long time (maybe 8 or 10 years long) skip, the Resistance becomes a coalition of governments-in-exile consisting of the New Republic, New CIS, New Hutt Cartel, New Chiss Ascendancy, new everything. I mean, if they're going to recycle the Rebel Alliance and the Galactic Empire with the Resistance and the First Order respectively, they might as well recycle some factions from the Prequel Trilogy. Such as the Confederacy of Independent Systems and the Hutt Cartel among others. I wouldn't even mind it if they cherry-picked some factions from the old Legends continuity. Then I could let the "Original Trilogy 2: Electric Boogaloo" thing slide if the Sequel Trilogy recycled some interplanetary governments from the Prequel Trilogy and the old EU.

 K9ofChaos wrote:

Charistoph wrote:The issue being that tech has advanced since that time, so either they are not true to their power (or lack thereof) or they are more powerful than they should be.

That being said, if Armada was still going forward I would be wanting to get my hands on some Venators and Acclamators. Interestingly enough, many of the current ships were considered designed and used during the Clone Wars, too.

Couldn't you hypothetically play a game of X-Wing or Armada with an Alliance to Restore the Republic versus the Confederacy of Independent Systems match though?

Not the issue I was speaking of, or rather, I was speaking to the issues in trying to do such. Theoretically, the X-Wing is a far superior craft to the ARC-170 and V-19 Torrent, as it was already noted as superior to the Z-95 that replaced the V-19 and required less investment than the ARC-170.

When you take a ship that is notably superior in the fluff and want to translate it to the board you either have to have an increased price for it or downgrade it to balance it to the current meta. Conversely, if you want to bring an fluff-wise inferior ship on to the board, you either have to make it a horde ship or you have to buff it up to match the standards.

Going from there, we run in to the issues of just the simple scales involved between the Clone Wars and the Galactic Civil War. The Rebel Alliance was vastly under-funded and under-staffed when compared to the Confederacy, the Old Republic, or the Empire. Sure, the quality of their equipment tended to be decent, where they could, but it was not uncommon for them to use Clone War leftovers. At which point, you're just playing The Republic vs the Confederacy without any of the Civil War upgrades.

 Charistoph wrote:

Not the issue I was speaking of, or rather, I was speaking to the issues in trying to do such. Theoretically, the X-Wing is a far superior craft to the ARC-170 and V-19 Torrent, as it was already noted as superior to the Z-95 that replaced the V-19 and required less investment than the ARC-170.

Well, keep in mind that "superior" doesn't necessarily mean its raw combat capabilities. It might simply be cheaper, or more specific in its role. The ARC-170 and Xwing are completely different craft that don't have the same role. The ARC-170 is more of a hybrid between a gunship and a heavy fighter with its 3 man crew, rear facing turret, etc... while the X-wing is a fighter-bomber.

There are also a lot of "superior" parts which wouldn't translate onto the tabletop. Like the advantage an X-wing has over the early Z-95s which didn't have hyperdrives, or vs a TIE fighter which doesn't have any lifesupport system other than the pilot's suit or a Hyperdrive.

 Grey Templar wrote:

 Charistoph wrote:

Not the issue I was speaking of, or rather, I was speaking to the issues in trying to do such. Theoretically, the X-Wing is a far superior craft to the ARC-170 and V-19 Torrent, as it was already noted as superior to the Z-95 that replaced the V-19 and required less investment than the ARC-170.

Well, keep in mind that "superior" doesn't necessarily mean its raw combat capabilities. It might simply be cheaper, or more specific in its role. The ARC-170 and Xwing are completely different craft that don't have the same role. The ARC-170 is more of a hybrid between a gunship and a heavy fighter with its 3 man crew, rear facing turret, etc... while the X-wing is a fighter-bomber.

There are also a lot of "superior" parts which wouldn't translate onto the tabletop. Like the advantage an X-wing has over the early Z-95s which didn't have hyperdrives, or vs a TIE fighter which doesn't have any lifesupport system other than the pilot's suit or a Hyperdrive.

And its those differences which have to be properly maintained in one form or another. While some people think otherwise, there was tech development in the Star Wars universe throughout its noted time frames. Most of it was just levels of quality and miniaturization. They couldn't develop the Tie Defender during the Clone Wars, no matter how much money they threw at the program until other programs had reached the maturity to be mated in that ship. They couldn't make the X-Wing when they made the Z-95. And while the ARC-170 had a different role, it was often used in the space superiority role and light attack ship that the X-Wing became known for.

 Charistoph wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:

 Charistoph wrote:

Not the issue I was speaking of, or rather, I was speaking to the issues in trying to do such. Theoretically, the X-Wing is a far superior craft to the ARC-170 and V-19 Torrent, as it was already noted as superior to the Z-95 that replaced the V-19 and required less investment than the ARC-170.

Well, keep in mind that "superior" doesn't necessarily mean its raw combat capabilities. It might simply be cheaper, or more specific in its role. The ARC-170 and Xwing are completely different craft that don't have the same role. The ARC-170 is more of a hybrid between a gunship and a heavy fighter with its 3 man crew, rear facing turret, etc... while the X-wing is a fighter-bomber.

There are also a lot of "superior" parts which wouldn't translate onto the tabletop. Like the advantage an X-wing has over the early Z-95s which didn't have hyperdrives, or vs a TIE fighter which doesn't have any lifesupport system other than the pilot's suit or a Hyperdrive.

And its those differences which have to be properly maintained in one form or another. While some people think otherwise, there was tech development in the Star Wars universe throughout its noted time frames. Most of it was just levels of quality and miniaturization. They couldn't develop the Tie Defender during the Clone Wars, no matter how much money they threw at the program until other programs had reached the maturity to be mated in that ship. They couldn't make the X-Wing when they made the Z-95. And while the ARC-170 had a different role, it was often used in the space superiority role and light attack ship that the X-Wing became known for.

Are you talking purely fluff or how this translates to the tabletop? If the former then the fluff has little bearing on raw stats.

 ingtaer wrote:
Are you talking purely fluff or how this translates to the tabletop? If the former then the fluff has little bearing on raw stats.

A little bit of both. Either you completely ignore the fluff to fit a model in to the rules you need it to (such as SW: Battlefront 2 having the interceptor V-Wing being the bomber and the fighter-bomber ARC-170 as the superiority fighter), fit the proportionality of the fluff in to play, or a mix of the two.

People expect the latest type to be superior. If I put a Sopwith Camel on the table, I shouldn't expect it to do too much against a Messerschmitt bf-109, as an example. If that Camel competes on an almost even level with the bf 109, that requires a serious suspension of disbelief and that can turn people off from the game.

While I have 0 interest in the game due to high cost and lack of availability in stores. I'd love to see the Naboo Starfighter and shuttle from episode 1 plus the red ambassador shuttle and droid fighter.
It's pretty much the only good thing from that film.

 Charistoph wrote:

 ingtaer wrote:
Are you talking purely fluff or how this translates to the tabletop? If the former then the fluff has little bearing on raw stats.

A little bit of both. Either you completely ignore the fluff to fit a model in to the rules you need it to (such as SW: Battlefront 2 having the interceptor V-Wing being the bomber and the fighter-bomber ARC-170 as the superiority fighter), fit the proportionality of the fluff in to play, or a mix of the two.

People expect the latest type to be superior. If I put a Sopwith Camel on the table, I shouldn't expect it to do too much against a Messerschmitt bf-109, as an example. If that Camel competes on an almost even level with the bf 109, that requires a serious suspension of disbelief and that can turn people off from the game.

You are massively overselling the disparity here, its more like a Spitfire mkii against a mkxvi. NuCanon has had clone wars era fighters (eta2, z, arc, v and n1) flying against the First Order without being hopelessly out classed. From a game perspective I very much doubt they will hugely change the prequal era ships that are out at the moment (except maybe giving the Y more hull) but will just change the maneuvers. There is no reason that they need to.

While there has been some technological advancement in Star Wars, it is relatively minor. And most of the things touted as advancements are really just "we slapped more X on it!", which isn't really a technological leap forward. Not in a way comparable to the difference between a WW2 fighter and a modern fighter. Its more like the difference between a mid and late WW2 fighter.

Even in WW2 when there was a huge leap in Fighter technology with the introduction of Jet engines, the early Jets weren't hopelessly outclassing their opponents. They were just a tough opponent. As Chuck Yeager said, "The first time I saw a Jet, I shot it down!"

Nothing in Star Wars actually even comes close to being a similar leap in technology like Jet Engines vs propellers. Its even smaller modifications.

ingtaer wrote:

 Charistoph wrote:

 ingtaer wrote:
Are you talking purely fluff or how this translates to the tabletop? If the former then the fluff has little bearing on raw stats.

A little bit of both. Either you completely ignore the fluff to fit a model in to the rules you need it to (such as SW: Battlefront 2 having the interceptor V-Wing being the bomber and the fighter-bomber ARC-170 as the superiority fighter), fit the proportionality of the fluff in to play, or a mix of the two.

People expect the latest type to be superior. If I put a Sopwith Camel on the table, I shouldn't expect it to do too much against a Messerschmitt bf-109, as an example. If that Camel competes on an almost even level with the bf 109, that requires a serious suspension of disbelief and that can turn people off from the game.

You are massively overselling the disparity here, its more like a Spitfire mkii against a mkxvi. NuCanon has had clone wars era fighters (eta2, z, arc, v and n1) flying against the First Order without being hopelessly out classed. From a game perspective I very much doubt they will hugely change the prequal era ships that are out at the moment (except maybe giving the Y more hull) but will just change the maneuvers. There is no reason that they need to.

No, not really.

Grey Templar wrote:While there has been some technological advancement in Star Wars, it is relatively minor. And most of the things touted as advancements are really just "we slapped more X on it!", which isn't really a technological leap forward. Not in a way comparable to the difference between a WW2 fighter and a modern fighter. Its more like the difference between a mid and late WW2 fighter.

Even in WW2 when there was a huge leap in Fighter technology with the introduction of Jet engines, the early Jets weren't hopelessly outclassing their opponents. They were just a tough opponent. As Chuck Yeager said, "The first time I saw a Jet, I shot it down!"

Nothing in Star Wars actually even comes close to being a similar leap in technology like Jet Engines vs propellers. Its even smaller modifications.

No, it is still more than that, but not as much as WW2 to modern fighter craft. The difference between the Z-95 Headhunter and the T-65 X-wing is closer to the difference between the F-4A Phantom and F-15A Eagle, while the E-Wing would be closer to the F-35 in comparison.

Tech advancement in Star Wars isn't really as quantum as jet engines were in WW2 or Fly-By-Wire/stealth was in modern jet craft, but subtle yet strong increments in capabilities.

 Charistoph wrote:

ingtaer wrote:

 Charistoph wrote:

 ingtaer wrote:
Are you talking purely fluff or how this translates to the tabletop? If the former then the fluff has little bearing on raw stats.

A little bit of both. Either you completely ignore the fluff to fit a model in to the rules you need it to (such as SW: Battlefront 2 having the interceptor V-Wing being the bomber and the fighter-bomber ARC-170 as the superiority fighter), fit the proportionality of the fluff in to play, or a mix of the two.

People expect the latest type to be superior. If I put a Sopwith Camel on the table, I shouldn't expect it to do too much against a Messerschmitt bf-109, as an example. If that Camel competes on an almost even level with the bf 109, that requires a serious suspension of disbelief and that can turn people off from the game.

You are massively overselling the disparity here, its more like a Spitfire mkii against a mkxvi. NuCanon has had clone wars era fighters (eta2, z, arc, v and n1) flying against the First Order without being hopelessly out classed. From a game perspective I very much doubt they will hugely change the prequal era ships that are out at the moment (except maybe giving the Y more hull) but will just change the maneuvers. There is no reason that they need to.

No, not really.

Can you back your argument up with anything better than that? I showed an instance in canon where the disparity in quality is not that great and your response did nothing to refute that. In game terms we have the continuity of Z, 65, E (or 70) that show how the stats alter between generations and the difference is minuscule so how exactly do you think the prequel ships will be stated?

 ingtaer wrote:
Can you back your argument up with anything better than that?

Yes, read the next paragraph of the previous response. I didn't want to repeat myself in such a large amount, even though this is going another round again.

 ingtaer wrote:
I showed an instance in canon where the disparity in quality is not that great and your response did nothing to refute that. In game terms we have the continuity of Z, 65, E (or 70) that show how the stats alter between generations and the difference is minuscule so how exactly do you think the prequel ships will be stated?

No, you didn't, but then I'm talking about being cautious about either ignoring the fluff for game balance, or having the fluff strongly influence the game stats.

The stats of the game are at a point where some differences will be unable to be registered, and then there is the consideration of game stats as well. There are also incidentals which are not taken into account by the game which are very important to the universe at large, such as hyperdrives and rarely does any one bring in a force they expect to be balanced against what they face.

For example, a T-65 X-Wing's hull may be 4 times the resilience of a V-19 Torrent (to give an example), but the Hull Strength of the T-65 is already at 3, so making the Torrent's Hull at 1 would be only a third instead of a quarter. Unfortunately, they also did not have shields, which would make them a laughing stock in a game in which you could be loosing most of your force in a couple rounds of shooting.

Another example would be that the Tie Defender is supposed to be capable of out-running an A-Wing, but they match in the game. Part of that is because there is no Speed 6 which will become very important if they ever release the Missile Boat with the SLAM.

Overall, the issue with including the Clone Wars is that while the type of tech itself hadn't changed from then, it had improved significantly by the time of the Civil War while X-Wing was designed to operate with the Civil War as a base standard. It would be like trying to include the aforementioned Sopwith Camel or Fokker Dr.1 in to a game which used the Supermarine Spitfire as the central speed baseline at 3 with the spread going from 2-5 for single seats.

It seems the 6th and 7th faction are going to be added sooner, rather than later:


https://www.fantasyflightgames.com/en/news/2018/11/9/enter-the-clone-wars/

I really like there are finally faction starters. I really wish they had done more of this for the 2nd edition launch. A little weird to sell the extra Vulture in a different color like that when it doesn't match at all (even if its more recognizable). Still, these feel like some of the most well thought out stuff in a while. Not personally interested, but well done.