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pm713 wrote:
Sarcasm went overhead I see. Armageddon was invaded by a motherfething PRIMARCH and you they covered that up. Terra isn't special. You're just describing a demon invasion with more big demons than average.

Actually you're right. looking over the book and found this quote:

"You will never hear an account of that battle, not as you will hear accounts of
his triumphant return to Terra, nor the great crusade that followed those days.
You will never hear how Roboute Guilliman fought the greater daemon atop the
ruins of the Lion’s Gate as the skies rained crimson tears around them. You will
never read of how the two of them duelled amid the screams and the rearing
flames, each testing the other to destruction, teetering on the edge of the
treacherous precipice while the hordes of damnation seethed below. You will
never hear how the monster nearly ripped him apart with a single lash of its
whip, or how his brow glowed with the light of the sun when he fought, or how
in the end he drove his sword into the daemon’s chest and clean out the other
side. You will never hear how he choked the life from that unnatural leviathan
with his great gauntlets, then cast its body down from the pyramid of debris to
break apart on the bloody dust below."

They tried and failed. SW got in the way the first time.

Also whilst true knowledge of chaos is highly restricted, lesser knowledge comes far more frequently. It's no absolute one or zero people.

 Earth127 wrote:
They tried and failed. SW got in the way the first time.

Also whilst true knowledge of chaos is highly restricted, lesser knowledge comes far more frequently. It's no absolute one or zero people.

I wonder what would happen though if even the average Imperial knows. I mean the Emperor kept that knowledge for a reason, maybe the belief in the Emperor as a god might combat it a bit but we've all seen rouge cardinals and deacons etc.

Yay more quotes!

End of the day we don’t really know what his bargain was let alone if he upheld it. We don’t know what would happen but I don’t think chaos would’ve done nothing.

Andykp wrote:
Yay more quotes!

End of the day we don’t really know what his bargain was let alone if he upheld it. We don’t know what would happen but I don’t think chaos would’ve done nothing.

Well you don't even read the book you're a debating, so no wonder a short paragraph is taxing for you. Look we had an argument in another thread, get over it.

"End of the day we don’t really know what his bargain was let alone if he upheld it. We don’t know what would happen but I don’t think chaos would’ve done nothing." yeah the other people and I, told you everything you know about that.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

Andykp wrote:
Yay more quotes!

End of the day we don’t really know what his bargain was let alone if he upheld it. We don’t know what would happen but I don’t think chaos would’ve done nothing.

Well you don't even read the book you're a debating, so no wonder a short paragraph is taxing for you. Look we had an argument in another thread, get over it.

"End of the day we don’t really know what his bargain was let alone if he upheld it. We don’t know what would happen but I don’t think chaos would’ve done nothing." yeah the other people and I, told you everything you know about that.

Rude! Though we were debating what if the emperor upheld his side of the bargain? That’s the title. Not, the vengeful spirit, discuss. We went over it in the other thread and you provided no reliable sources for your “facts”. No one accepted your arguements but you carry on in other threads. It’s not personal mate. I’m just discussing 40k. We don’t “know”. And you are completely unaware of what I have and haven’t read. One thing is clear is that you are from an authority on 40k or 30k fluff.

Andykp wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

Andykp wrote:
Yay more quotes!

End of the day we don’t really know what his bargain was let alone if he upheld it. We don’t know what would happen but I don’t think chaos would’ve done nothing.

Well you don't even read the book you're a debating, so no wonder a short paragraph is taxing for you. Look we had an argument in another thread, get over it.

"End of the day we don’t really know what his bargain was let alone if he upheld it. We don’t know what would happen but I don’t think chaos would’ve done nothing." yeah the other people and I, told you everything you know about that.

Rude! Though we were debating what if the emperor upheld his side of the bargain? That’s the title. Not, the vengeful spirit, discuss. We went over it in the other thread and you provided no reliable sources for your “facts”. No one accepted your arguements but you carry on in other threads. It’s not personal mate. I’m just discussing 40k. We don’t “know”. And you are completely unaware of what I have and haven’t read. One thing is clear is that you are from an authority on 40k or 30k fluff.

I did actually provide proof, you and everyone didn't like that proof and said yeah but, you are ignoring the subtext and the interpretation, or Horus was biased even though the Emperors servant told the same story. Thing is everyone on that thread agreed that the Emperor went to the House of eyes they just disagree on what he did or got from there, no one knows what you were talking about, arguing that nothing in the book could be right because the writer called Horus a god after coming out of the House of eyes. Not reliable, they're straight from the novel you haven't read, so It would seem unreliable to you. I'm rude, no mate saying 'yay more quotes' is rude, go and tell a mod again and get my comments deleted. Everyone else on that thread at least could make a point other than just nonsensical gibberish. I don't know what books you've read I know for a fact that you haven't read vengeful spirit. You're the one carrying on on other threads saying 'yay more quotes'. <REMOVED> I'm not the one following you everywhere I go, desperately trying to prove me wrong on something, you are an irrelevance, other than being annoying more than anything.

Points.

1 I never even got to read what the mods removed. As I said on the thread. Certainly didn’t report you but would love to know what you said. PM me.

2. U didn’t provide proof you quoted literal text, as here and demonstrated no ability to see beyond that and into the subtext everyone’s could see. Everyone else was wrong and you were the only one who read the book right.

3. Ya more quotes may have been a bit rude but not as much as your constantly implying I’m stupid or illiterate. I apologies if may pointing that your reliance on quotes is getting tiresome. No offence meant.

4. I’m not stalking u, I’m commenting in the back ground of a game I love. A game, believe it or not I know very well and have done for 30years. I haven’t just read some HH books and taken them for “gospel” or “fact”, as you have. (Those are quotes by the way, from u, you actually stated that anything in a HH book was gospel and that they contained facts. A fictional book about a made up universe?). U have a posted a lot of threads in this section. I’m commenting on most of them.

5. Why the obsession with my butthole. U keep saying you have hurt it. I guarantee you that my bottom is fine and you have had zero impact on it.

6. U know nothing about me. What I’ve read, level of education, state of butthole. Nothing.

I’ve started breaking my posts to you down like this so you can understand them a bit better.

7. Kudos on standing corrected above. That quote actually clears an issue up.

Back on topic. Bargain or not chaos would’ve messed things up. It’s what they do. People knowing about chaos isn’t a defence against it. Most who know of it turn to it. Only the strongest can resist. Ie grey knights and inquisitors.

That doesn't seem right. Most humans who find out about Chaos just know about the power bit and that's why they turn.

Factions like the Eldar and Grey Knights all know about Chaos and generally never turn.

Andykp wrote:
Points.

1 I never even got to read what the mods removed. As I said on the thread. Certainly didn’t report you but would love to know what you said. PM me.

2. U didn’t provide proof you quoted literal text, as here and demonstrated no ability to see beyond that and into the subtext everyone’s could see. Everyone else was wrong and you were the only one who read the book right.

3. Ya more quotes may have been a bit rude but not as much as your constantly implying I’m stupid or illiterate. I apologies if may pointing that your reliance on quotes is getting tiresome. No offence meant.

4. I’m not stalking u, I’m commenting in the back ground of a game I love. A game, believe it or not I know very well and have done for 30years. I haven’t just read some HH books and taken them for “gospel” or “fact”, as you have. (Those are quotes by the way, from u, you actually stated that anything in a HH book was gospel and that they contained facts. A fictional book about a made up universe?). U have a posted a lot of threads in this section. I’m commenting on most of them.

5. Why the obsession with my butthole. U keep saying you have hurt it. I guarantee you that my bottom is fine and you have had zero impact on it.

6. U know nothing about me. What I’ve read, level of education, state of butthole. Nothing.

I’ve started breaking my posts to you down like this so you can understand them a bit better.

7. Kudos on standing corrected above. That quote actually clears an issue up.

Back on topic. Bargain or not chaos would’ve messed things up. It’s what they do. People knowing about chaos isn’t a defence against it. Most who know of it turn to it. Only the strongest can resist. Ie grey knights and inquisitors.

No two people didn't read the book you were one of them. You made mistakes about the book that strongly suggests you never read it.

Yeah I quoted literal text and you and others used the subtext angle to try and prove it wrong. The Emperor did go to Molech and he did get powers there. Saying we don't know what he got up to, while talking to the Chaos Gods, isn't a good argument, they weren't playing jenga. Sureka knew what the Emperor got, but for some reason you find her testimony unreliable, for no reason whatsoever. She stayed on Molech since the dark age of technology to protect the gate, then risk her life against Horus, risked he family to protect the gate because she was lying about it.... Plus Horus become practically a god after coming out of the house of eyes, yeah the Emperor just went in to play jenga.

If a book says something explicitly happened then I tend to believe it did.

"U know nothing about me. What I’ve read, level of education, state of butthole. Nothing." I know your level of education is pretty low, it gets very frustrating arguing with you, you argue points that no one is making and points that have nothing to do with the argument, last time you did a point by point it was indecipherable.

"Kudos on standing corrected above. That quote actually clears an issue up" what quote exactly?

Bargain or not chaos would’ve messed things up. - probably would, saying they would is baseless. People not knowing about chaos is a defense against it, the question is to how much of a degree would chaos influence the Imperium if they all knew. Not only the strongest can resist chaos, anyone can, its just the Grey Knights have a far stronger resistance, as for Inquisitors, seeing the amount that have gone rogue I wouldn't say they were particularly resistant to chaos.

RULE #1 PEOPLE

Nearly all the fluff I have read (and it’s quite a bit) shows people who have any dealings with chaos get tempted by its promise of power and turn. Psykers are monitored not just because they are a potential gateway for demons but also that they get too close to the warp and can turn very easily. The average down trodden human would turn quick as lightening. It’s not just a matter of right and wrong it’s a clawing temptation that lures you in.
Only the strongest willed can resist. Always has been. Hence sanctioned psykers, librarians being screened so tightly and thengrey knights been considered superior to marines in their ability to resist. They are not just a bit better. They are markedly better than a psycho indoctrinated super soldier. Let alone an average joe.

Andykp wrote:
Nearly all the fluff I have read (and it’s quite a bit) shows people who have any dealings with chaos get tempted by its promise of power and turn. Psykers are monitored not just because they are a potential gateway for demons but also that they get too close to the warp and can turn very easily. The average down trodden human would turn quick as lightening. It’s not just a matter of right and wrong it’s a clawing temptation that lures you in.
Only the strongest willed can resist. Always has been. Hence sanctioned psykers, librarians being screened so tightly and thengrey knights been considered superior to marines in their ability to resist. They are not just a bit better. They are markedly better than a psycho indoctrinated super soldier. Let alone an average joe.

Yes but its dependant on the person. Some humans have the will to resist chaos because many have been tested and have refused them. "The average down trodden human would turn quick as lightening" also not true, there has been accounts of cults on Terra and not everyone within those areas that the cult operates turn. The Horus Heresy is another example where many normal humans resisted the Warmaster, even when their planets where taken over. Many humans even resisted in the Sons of Horus fleet and risked death for not going with the agenda. Space Marines are not that resistant compared to humans, half of all the legions Astartes turned to chaos in the HH and they were the first to turn, only 10 millennium of training and being taught about the plights of Chaos has made them so resistant. Without prior knowledge of Chaos the Astartes fell to it like domino's in HH, many didn't even need that much of a push. Grey knights, Sisters of Silence and the Custodes are the only Imperial forces that have any considerable resistance against chaos.

That’s my point. Marines fell and still do. If marines fall then ordinary humans have no chance. Being in the same area as a cult doesn’t mean you have come into contact or know about chaos. I have never heard that marines are taught about chaos as part of their training. I have always read that they are mind wiped or killed if the come into contact with chaos. Unless you are some high ranking one with a bit of sway. Telling all people about chaos, would only lead to more people turning. 100%.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Reading grey knights codex talk of mind wiping marines seems thin on the ground. Hope they haven’t changed it. Will keep looking but I always thought it was a bit much to wipe space marines so might be for the best.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Found it. Nothing’s changed. Page 276 of the rule book. Only a select few know of demons and their threat. Either killed or mind wiped.

Andykp wrote:
That’s my point. Marines fell and still do. If marines fall then ordinary humans have no chance. Being in the same area as a cult doesn’t mean you have come into contact or know about chaos. I have never heard that marines are taught about chaos as part of their training. I have always read that they are mind wiped or killed if the come into contact with chaos. Unless you are some high ranking one with a bit of sway. Telling all people about chaos, would only lead to more people turning. 100%.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Reading grey knights codex talk of mind wiping marines seems thin on the ground. Hope they haven’t changed it. Will keep looking but I always thought it was a bit much to wipe space marines so might be for the best.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Found it. Nothing’s changed. Page 276 of the rule book. Only a select few know of demons and their threat. Either killed or mind wiped.

Saying ordinary humans have no chance just isn't true, depends on the person. Astartes may have a serious weakness for turning, they are obsessed with glory which is a very egotistic way of living, very easily enticed in my opinion, Astarted turning to chaos caused the whole HH. Only marines that come into contact with the Grey Knights are mind wiped. They know about chaos very well and they are taught about its dangers and taught to resist it.

Andykp wrote:
End of the day we don’t really know what his bargain was let alone if he upheld it. We don’t know what would happen but I don’t think chaos would’ve done nothing.

Indeed. Both First Heretic and Vengeful Spirit give Chaos's side of the story but we all know perfectly well that Daemons are quite happy to lie and twist the truth if it serves their agenda.

There is also the matter of perspective. The Chaos Gods view all mortal souls as their rightful food/possession. Anything the Emperor does to undermine that would count as theft in their eyes.

I feel that Master of Mankind was a bit of a missed opportunity as it does not go nearly far enough to answer any of these questions, or even to give the Emperor's side of the story.

ADB said he purposely set out to avoid a book that was just a set of justifications and expositions from the Big E however I cannot help but feel he erred too far in the opposite direction. We understand the Chaos Gods and the fallen Primarchs much better than the Emperor and the Loyalists. MoM could have balanced that a bit. The Emperor may well be beyond human concepts of affection but at least if we understood his objectives a little more, it would help us to sympathise with him.

The entire HH series has painted the Emperor in a very poor light. It would be one thing to paint him as cold and remote but with a magnificent intellect unfortunately his handling of the Primarchs persistently makes him look like a giant jerk. Or they could paint him as caring yet flawed but they didn't do that either. Frankly I am surprised any of the Primarchs remained loyal given the way the Emperor has been written.

And that is a problem. He is meant to be humanity's protector and saviour. If you cannot sympathise with him, it robs the loyalist faction of any interest.

 Karhedron wrote:

Andykp wrote:
End of the day we don’t really know what his bargain was let alone if he upheld it. We don’t know what would happen but I don’t think chaos would’ve done nothing.

Indeed. Both First Heretic and Vengeful Spirit give Chaos's side of the story but we all know perfectly well that Daemons are quite happy to lie and twist the truth if it serves their agenda.

There is also the matter of perspective. The Chaos Gods view all mortal souls as their rightful food/possession. Anything the Emperor does to undermine that would count as theft in their eyes.

I feel that Master of Mankind was a bit of a missed opportunity as it does not go nearly far enough to answer any of these questions, or even to give the Emperor's side of the story.

ADB said he purposely set out to avoid a book that was just a set of justifications and expositions from the Big E however I cannot help but feel he erred too far in the opposite direction. We understand the Chaos Gods and the fallen Primarchs much better than the Emperor and the Loyalists. MoM could have balanced that a bit. The Emperor may well be beyond human concepts of affection but at least if we understood his objectives a little more, it would help us to sympathise with him.

The entire HH series has painted the Emperor in a very poor light. It would be one thing to paint him as cold and remote but with a magnificent intellect unfortunately his handling of the Primarchs persistently makes him look like a giant jerk. Or they could paint him as caring yet flawed but they didn't do that either. Frankly I am surprised any of the Primarchs remained loyal given the way the Emperor has been written.

And that is a problem. He is meant to be humanity's protector and saviour. If you cannot sympathise with him, it robs the loyalist faction of any interest.

They don't just give the Chaos side in vengeful spirit, they give the side of the perpetual Sureka who went with the Emperor to Molech during the dark age of technology, and was tasked with sealing the gate and was left behind on Molech to protect the gateway. Plus Horus' side knowledge of the Emperor going to Molech for powers was not daemon knowledge, he went into a cave on Molech and destroyed the Emperors psychic defendor in order to regain the memories that the Emperor erased the second time the Emperor was on Molech. Horus knew about the Emperors deal before the Red Angel told him more about it.

I agree with you Karhedron except I prefer the not knowing for sure. It keeps the mystery going. That’s the danger of any of HH books. They could answer too many questions.

Dev, where are you getting it from that marines are trained in the knowledge of chaos, it’s new to me and couldn’t find it in any of the books i looked in tonight? Genuine question, i know how they change things.

As I said page 276 of the basic rule book, in the appendix states what I always believed was how it was done. Although I never like the idea of mind wiping or killing marines off just in case. Never made sense to me.

It of course depends on the individual as to how well they could resist chaos, but given that in the real world most people can’t resist an advert or a free doughnut, I think most people wouldn’t fair well against the temptations of the chaos gods.

Pic added to show paragraph in rule book. Know how you like a quote! (Kidding, playing nice now).

Andykp wrote:
I agree with you Karhedron except I prefer the not knowing for sure. It keeps the mystery going. That’s the danger of any of HH books. They could answer too many questions.

Dev, where are you getting it from that marines are trained in the knowledge of chaos, it’s new to me and couldn’t find it in any of the books i looked in tonight? Genuine question, i know how they change things.

As I said page 276 of the basic rule book, in the appendix states what I always believed was how it was done. Although I never like the idea of mind wiping or killing marines off just in case. Never made sense to me.

It of course depends on the individual as to how well they could resist chaos, but given that in the real world most people can’t resist an advert or a free doughnut, I think most people wouldn’t fair well against the temptations of the chaos gods.

Pic added to show paragraph in rule book. Know how you like a quote! (Kidding, playing nice now).

Well the space wolves first test, the test of Morakai's gate is a test to resist Chaos for instance.

No Astartes are only ever mind wiped when they come into contact with the Grey Knights, they have always known about daemons. Only Humans, Imperial Guard etc are ever mind-wiped for knowing of daemons.

Have to disagree on the humans bit. Guard etc are killed. Always have been and according to the quote above still are. Only high value people are mind wiped. Like marines.

In 1st edition fluff everyone one was killed which didn’t make sense. So now it’s got a bit more men in Black. I don’t know about that space wolf test you mentioned so will look into it. My understanding of normal marine indoctrination was just the standard be loyal to the emperor, do as your told and don’t ask question stuff. Mad be a psycho killer prepared to die at any moment.


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Of course if marines or guard are on their own and meet demons, who’s to know? But if it’s found out and you didn’t say, it’s burning at the stake time.

Andykp wrote:
Have to disagree on the humans bit. Guard etc are killed. Always have been and according to the quote above still are. Only high value people are mind wiped. Like marines.

In 1st edition fluff everyone one was killed which didn’t make sense. So now it’s got a bit more men in Black. I don’t know about that space wolf test you mentioned so will look into it. My understanding of normal marine indoctrination was just the standard be loyal to the emperor, do as your told and don’t ask question stuff. Mad be a psycho killer prepared to die at any moment.

Yeah they are killed. Most 1st edition fluff is irrelevant now, though.

I gave the first edition as an example of it changing, and for the better in this case. The gate of morakai is from space wolf, the novel yes? If that’s the one you mean I dint think it shows the aspirants what chaos is. It tempts them but I don’t think they come out of their trance aware of the chaos gods and demons. I could be wrong, space wolves are rum uns.

Andykp wrote:
I gave the first edition as an example of it changing, and for the better in this case. The gate of morakai is from space wolf, the novel yes? If that’s the one you mean I dint think it shows the aspirants what chaos is. It tempts them but I don’t think they come out of their trance aware of the chaos gods and demons. I could be wrong, space wolves are rum uns.

Can't remember if they didn't remember it, but they also go through memory implantation that tells them everything they need to know about Chaos and the Imperium, which is important for the Space Wolves as they come from a savage primordial cultures. Also I think teaching Marines of chaos is a logical thing to do, just like teaching them of xenos, 'know thy enemy' sort of thing.

Keep in mind there are differant levels of knowledge of something, some safer then others obviously,

I imagine it's a bit like marines proably know that there are fell forces in the warp, marine chapters masters and other VIPs know who they are etc, grey knights and high level inqusitors know all that and also know on paper how one would summon a deamon.

Knowing that this stuff exists is possiably problematic but it's a lot less dangerous then "to summon a blood thrister you do XYZ" but the latter might be important for a Inqusitor or Grey Knight to know if battling a chaos cult so they can reckongize whats happening.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
Keep in mind there are differant levels of knowledge of something, some safer then others obviously,

I imagine it's a bit like marines proably know that there are fell forces in the warp, marine chapters masters and other VIPs know who they are etc, grey knights and high level inqusitors know all that and also know on paper how one would summon a deamon.

Knowing that this stuff exists is possiably problematic but it's a lot less dangerous then "to summon a blood thrister you do XYZ" but the latter might be important for a Inqusitor or Grey Knight to know if battling a chaos cult so they can reckongize whats happening.

Doubt any one knows as much as the inquisition or the high lords of terra though.

radical inqusitors are proably the most informed in the Imperium short of outright chaos cultists.

Even Astartes are mind wiped when they find out about the existence of the Grey Knights. Therefore I find it very difficult to believe that Astartes (I.e. people of significant value) wouldn’t be just mind wiped if they found out about Chaos.

I believe only chapter masters are permitted to know about the Grey Knights and if you’re allowed to know about the “cure” then it would be acceptable to know their were “Warp Xeno’s that can tempt you”

I have never heard that marines being told about the existence of chaos. Brian is right. U could know that in the warp there are beasties to fight. But know nothing of their nature or the gods. It out right says in the fluff in the current rule book that they don’t know. Only high lords and a handful of other important types know.

I dint think even cultists know the true nature of chaos. Most probably don’t really understand what they are doing. Chaos is after all the master manipulator. I like to think the rogue inquisitors are the ones who have seen the power of chaos and some believe it can be used to help man kind (fools).

I believe it was a Dark Angels or Space Wolves novel that showed that their chapter master knew of the grey knights. It therefore wouldn’t make sense that they would know of them but not what they are designed to combat.

Mellow wrote:
Even Astartes are mind wiped when they find out about the existence of the Grey Knights. Therefore I find it very difficult to believe that Astartes (I.e. people of significant value) wouldn’t be just mind wiped if they found out about Chaos.

I believe only chapter masters are permitted to know about the Grey Knights and if you’re allowed to know about the “cure” then it would be acceptable to know their were “Warp Xeno’s that can tempt you”

I've never heard anything about Astartes being mind wiped over Chaos and it seems fairly silly considering how much you'd have to do it.