Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

pm713 wrote:

Mellow wrote:
Even Astartes are mind wiped when they find out about the existence of the Grey Knights. Therefore I find it very difficult to believe that Astartes (I.e. people of significant value) wouldn’t be just mind wiped if they found out about Chaos.

I believe only chapter masters are permitted to know about the Grey Knights and if you’re allowed to know about the “cure” then it would be acceptable to know their were “Warp Xeno’s that can tempt you”

I've never heard anything about Astartes being mind wiped over Chaos and it seems fairly silly considering how much you'd have to do it.

Yup they are only ever mind wiped when it comes to the grey knights.

pm713 wrote:

Mellow wrote:
Even Astartes are mind wiped when they find out about the existence of the Grey Knights. Therefore I find it very difficult to believe that Astartes (I.e. people of significant value) wouldn’t be just mind wiped if they found out about Chaos.

I believe only chapter masters are permitted to know about the Grey Knights and if you’re allowed to know about the “cure” then it would be acceptable to know their were “Warp Xeno’s that can tempt you”

I've never heard anything about Astartes being mind wiped over Chaos and it seems fairly silly considering how much you'd have to do it.

That I have definitely heard. The thing is I could send them against traitors and heretics and they needn’t know they are chaos aligned. They could just traitors or separatists. Soon as demons start popping up you are in trouble. It’s only us in game terms know that a traitor guard army is chaos and not just some geouo that doesn’t want to be part of the imperium anymore.

Look at Badab. They were separatists to the ones fighting them and some of the ones on the rebels side.

Indeed. There are degrees.

Knowing 'the warp is a thing' is fine.
Referring to daemons in a theological abstract, fine - they're namechecked in the Fede Imperialis (pretty much the Ecclesiarchy analogue to the Lord's Prayer)


Fighting Traitors who claim to worship chaos, Fine-ish (they're traitor mutant loonies, who cares what they believe)
Encountering psychic manifestations and horror-esque non-specific daemonic stuff.....not really fine-ish, but the line between lesser daemons, psykers, and stuff like mandrakes or necron wraiths from the point of view of an ill-informed observer is pretty minor.

More major daemonic incursions - depends who's judging the case, what exactly you saw and who you are. Yes, Terra experienced a massive daemonic incursion, but let's be fair, anyone other than Custodes, Null-Maidens and Grey Knights who actually "saw" a phalanx of greater daemons of khorne in all their bloodstained glory is probably dribbling, pants-on-head insane, and you're doing them a favour by executing them.


Being aware that the Chaos Gods exist and the Grey Knights exist.....yeah. That's "we casually erase your family" territory.

I don’t believe they would send grey knights to deal with separatists or plain traitors. That’s what the Minotaurs are for.

Mellow wrote:
I don’t believe they would send grey knights to deal with separatists or plain traitors. That’s what the Minotaurs are for.

Yeah only if there is a possible daemon incursion do they deal with separatists or cultists etc. Though I would think that they can be called in for their experience if the situation is dire enough.

Mellow wrote:
I believe it was a Dark Angels or Space Wolves novel that showed that their chapter master knew of the grey knights. It therefore wouldn’t make sense that they would know of them but not what they are designed to combat.

even among a space marine chapter there is differing levels of knwoeldge, A CHAPTER MASTER, would ABSOLUTELY know Deamons are a thing and "if you ever need to deal with them, these are the guys to call" Brother Bob of the 6th tactical Squad in 5th company? No need for him to know that.

BrianDavion wrote:

Mellow wrote:
I believe it was a Dark Angels or Space Wolves novel that showed that their chapter master knew of the grey knights. It therefore wouldn’t make sense that they would know of them but not what they are designed to combat.

even among a space marine chapter there is differing levels of knwoeldge, A CHAPTER MASTER, would ABSOLUTELY know Deamons are a thing and "if you ever need to deal with them, these are the guys to call" Brother Bob of the 6th tactical Squad in 5th company? No need for him to know that.

Not all chapter masters, it took a war for Grimnar to be able to know about the Grey Knights. They were only aloud to know because of the stalemate at the end of the war.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

Mellow wrote:
I believe it was a Dark Angels or Space Wolves novel that showed that their chapter master knew of the grey knights. It therefore wouldn’t make sense that they would know of them but not what they are designed to combat.

even among a space marine chapter there is differing levels of knwoeldge, A CHAPTER MASTER, would ABSOLUTELY know Deamons are a thing and "if you ever need to deal with them, these are the guys to call" Brother Bob of the 6th tactical Squad in 5th company? No need for him to know that.

Not all chapter masters, it took a war for Grimnar to be able to know about the Grey Knights. They were only aloud to know because of the stalemate at the end of the war.

No. The Knights were summoned by Grimnar. The rest of the Wolves were told as part of the deal they made at the end of the Months of Shame.

pm713 wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

Mellow wrote:
I believe it was a Dark Angels or Space Wolves novel that showed that their chapter master knew of the grey knights. It therefore wouldn’t make sense that they would know of them but not what they are designed to combat.

even among a space marine chapter there is differing levels of knwoeldge, A CHAPTER MASTER, would ABSOLUTELY know Deamons are a thing and "if you ever need to deal with them, these are the guys to call" Brother Bob of the 6th tactical Squad in 5th company? No need for him to know that.

Not all chapter masters, it took a war for Grimnar to be able to know about the Grey Knights. They were only aloud to know because of the stalemate at the end of the war.

No. The Knights were summoned by Grimnar. The rest of the Wolves were told as part of the deal they made at the end of the Months of Shame.

Yup you're right.

So we have chapter master, high lords, inquisitors that need to and senior priest types that know about chaos proper. Marines and some guard maybe fought them but don’t really know what it was about. Average human it would just be folk lore like a yeti or ghost stories. Sounds good to me.

the exact details as to who knows what it seems vary from novel to novel, but the summery there seems about right. essentially you know as much about chaos as you need to know.

Andykp wrote:
So we have chapter master, high lords, inquisitors that need to and senior priest types that know about chaos proper. Marines and some guard maybe fought them but don’t really know what it was about. Average human it would just be folk lore like a yeti or ghost stories. Sounds good to me.

There is also the rule breakers, who learn what they shouldn't like in The Emperors Legion novel.

So basically as per the thread title... although He could have told Humanity about the primordial truth but it would have been really really bad because unlike Him (who clearly has some kind of special resistance to Chaos) the vast majority of humanity would have been swallowed up, twisted, enslaved and sacrificed by the Gods which basically would have gone against His plans for humanities dominance.

Continued survival... yes of a kind
Dominance ... not really no

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

Andykp wrote:
So we have chapter master, high lords, inquisitors that need to and senior priest types that know about chaos proper. Marines and some guard maybe fought them but don’t really know what it was about. Average human it would just be folk lore like a yeti or ghost stories. Sounds good to me.

There is also the rule breakers, who learn what they shouldn't like in The Emperors Legion novel.

There’s always peop,e who shouldn’t know who end up finding out. And it doesn’t normally go well.

Mellow wrote:
So basically as per the thread title... although He could have told Humanity about the primordial truth but it would have been really really bad because unlike Him (who clearly has some kind of special resistance to Chaos) the vast majority of humanity would have been swallowed up, twisted, enslaved and sacrificed by the Gods which basically would have gone against His plans for humanities dominance.

Continued survival... yes of a kind
Dominance ... not really no

I doubt it would have to end badly, especially with the Emperor making some sort of plan, Space Marines know and they fall to chaos pretty easily, even now many turn traitor.

pm713 wrote:
That doesn't seem right. Most humans who find out about Chaos just know about the power bit and that's why they turn.

Factions like the Eldar and Grey Knights all know about Chaos and generally never turn.

According to the Ciaphas Cain novels, ALL commissars are taught about the true nature of chaos and what it can do during training. This includes the names of the dark gods themselves and their portfolios. For his part, Cain needed inquisitorial approval in order to brief a room full of guard officers about these things when there was going to be a possible daemonworld level chaos incursion on Adumbria.

The Guard officers in question included a Lord General, and were not mindwiped or killed afterwards. A bog standard Tallarn footsoldier got to see Cain converse and fight a greater daemon of Slaanesh, and was not killed by the Inquisition afterwards, because it was stated in the notes afterwards he went back home to Tallarn and founded the cult of Cain.

granted the Cain novels tend to be much lighter in feel then your average 40k.

Still the Comissarite knowing what Chaos is is almost essential, these guys need to at the very LEAST reckongize Chaos as they're the fiorst line of defence against guard regiments being subverted by chaos.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

Mellow wrote:
So basically as per the thread title... although He could have told Humanity about the primordial truth but it would have been really really bad because unlike Him (who clearly has some kind of special resistance to Chaos) the vast majority of humanity would have been swallowed up, twisted, enslaved and sacrificed by the Gods which basically would have gone against His plans for humanities dominance.

Continued survival... yes of a kind
Dominance ... not really no

I doubt it would have to end badly, especially with the Emperor making some sort of plan, Space Marines know and they fall to chaos pretty easily, even now many turn traitor.

Does the fact that marines know and fall easily not suggest that normal people would fall even easier if they knew. Therefore it’s better they don’t. Marines are supposed to be spiritually stronger than most?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

w1zard wrote:

pm713 wrote:
That doesn't seem right. Most humans who find out about Chaos just know about the power bit and that's why they turn.

Factions like the Eldar and Grey Knights all know about Chaos and generally never turn.

According to the Ciaphas Cain novels, ALL commissars are taught about the true nature of chaos and what it can do during training. This includes the names of the dark gods themselves and their portfolios. For his part, Cain needed inquisitorial approval in order to brief a room full of guard officers about these things when there was going to be a possible daemonworld level chaos incursion on Adumbria.

The Guard officers in question included a Lord General, and were not mindwiped or killed afterwards. A bog standard Tallarn footsoldier got to see Cain converse and fight a greater daemon of Slaanesh, and was not killed by the Inquisition afterwards, because it was stated in the notes afterwards he went back home to Tallarn and founded the cult of Cain.

This is the problem with this bit of fluff. It means beloved characters get killed off and things. The guardsmen who have just won us that game against demons are all going to be executed now, makes it a bit pointless. In the shadow sword book the crew off the commissar and say nothing about it to anyone so they don’t get killed. I think this must happen a lot.

Demons attack. Guard fight them off. Officers tell them they were weird xenois and don’t worry about the nightmares.

w1zard wrote:

pm713 wrote:
That doesn't seem right. Most humans who find out about Chaos just know about the power bit and that's why they turn.

Factions like the Eldar and Grey Knights all know about Chaos and generally never turn.

According to the Ciaphas Cain novels, ALL commissars are taught about the true nature of chaos and what it can do during training. This includes the names of the dark gods themselves and their portfolios. For his part, Cain needed inquisitorial approval in order to brief a room full of guard officers about these things when there was going to be a possible daemonworld level chaos incursion on Adumbria.

The Guard officers in question included a Lord General, and were not mindwiped or killed afterwards. A bog standard Tallarn footsoldier got to see Cain converse and fight a greater daemon of Slaanesh, and was not killed by the Inquisition afterwards, because it was stated in the notes afterwards he went back home to Tallarn and founded the cult of Cain.

Yeah that seems logical, they have to be aware of daemons to be able to hold the line, otherwise they'd be like 'feth this, daemons... I'm out'


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Andykp wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

Mellow wrote:
So basically as per the thread title... although He could have told Humanity about the primordial truth but it would have been really really bad because unlike Him (who clearly has some kind of special resistance to Chaos) the vast majority of humanity would have been swallowed up, twisted, enslaved and sacrificed by the Gods which basically would have gone against His plans for humanities dominance.

Continued survival... yes of a kind
Dominance ... not really no

I doubt it would have to end badly, especially with the Emperor making some sort of plan, Space Marines know and they fall to chaos pretty easily, even now many turn traitor.

Does the fact that marines know and fall easily not suggest that normal people would fall even easier if they knew. Therefore it’s better they don’t. Marines are supposed to be spiritually stronger than most?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

w1zard wrote:

pm713 wrote:
That doesn't seem right. Most humans who find out about Chaos just know about the power bit and that's why they turn.

Factions like the Eldar and Grey Knights all know about Chaos and generally never turn.

According to the Ciaphas Cain novels, ALL commissars are taught about the true nature of chaos and what it can do during training. This includes the names of the dark gods themselves and their portfolios. For his part, Cain needed inquisitorial approval in order to brief a room full of guard officers about these things when there was going to be a possible daemonworld level chaos incursion on Adumbria.

The Guard officers in question included a Lord General, and were not mindwiped or killed afterwards. A bog standard Tallarn footsoldier got to see Cain converse and fight a greater daemon of Slaanesh, and was not killed by the Inquisition afterwards, because it was stated in the notes afterwards he went back home to Tallarn and founded the cult of Cain.

This is the problem with this bit of fluff. It means beloved characters get killed off and things. The guardsmen who have just won us that game against demons are all going to be executed now, makes it a bit pointless. In the shadow sword book the crew off the commissar and say nothing about it to anyone so they don’t get killed. I think this must happen a lot.

Demons attack. Guard fight them off. Officers tell them they were weird xenois and don’t worry about the nightmares.

Most humans fall easily, but I wouldn't be too sure in thinking Astartes have any better resistance. All it really took for most Astartes in HH was the notion that they would end up being statesmen ir go the way of the thunderwarriors. I mean half of all astartes (not exactly half) turned pretty damn easily. They may have some fundamental flaw that makes it easier to turn them.

30k Astartes were just people but bigger. Post heresy they got all the indoctrination that makes them much more resistant to Chaos if somewhat insane.

The reason they turned in 30k is that they followed their leaders. Like good soldiers they stuck with their commanders, the problem was that the Emperor is so terrible at dealing with people half his children liked Horus more because he was a decent person to them.

pm713 wrote:
30k Astartes were just people but bigger. Post heresy they got all the indoctrination that makes them much more resistant to Chaos if somewhat insane.

The reason they turned in 30k is that they followed their leaders. Like good soldiers they stuck with their commanders, the problem was that the Emperor is so terrible at dealing with people half his children liked Horus more because he was a decent person to them.

Most went without resistance though, even when gak got weird. Not all of them turned because their leaders did. Lucius for instance, he turned before even knowing he did lol, where as Karn and Argel Tal resisted quite heavily. Erebus had to kill Argel to ensure Kharn became the chosen.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

pm713 wrote:
30k Astartes were just people but bigger. Post heresy they got all the indoctrination that makes them much more resistant to Chaos if somewhat insane.

The reason they turned in 30k is that they followed their leaders. Like good soldiers they stuck with their commanders, the problem was that the Emperor is so terrible at dealing with people half his children liked Horus more because he was a decent person to them.

Most went without resistance though, even when gak got weird. Not all of them turned because their leaders did. Lucius for instance, he turned before even knowing he did lol, where as Karn and Argel Tal resisted quite heavily. Erebus had to kill Argel to ensure Kharn became the chosen.

Why wouldn't they? They can side with their trusted and loved Primarch or some distant evil tyrant who'll kill them without a care. I know who I'd pick.

pm713 wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

pm713 wrote:
30k Astartes were just people but bigger. Post heresy they got all the indoctrination that makes them much more resistant to Chaos if somewhat insane.

The reason they turned in 30k is that they followed their leaders. Like good soldiers they stuck with their commanders, the problem was that the Emperor is so terrible at dealing with people half his children liked Horus more because he was a decent person to them.

Most went without resistance though, even when gak got weird. Not all of them turned because their leaders did. Lucius for instance, he turned before even knowing he did lol, where as Karn and Argel Tal resisted quite heavily. Erebus had to kill Argel to ensure Kharn became the chosen.

Why wouldn't they? They can side with their trusted and loved Primarch or some distant evil tyrant who'll kill them without a care. I know who I'd pick.

Not saying they shouldn't, just saying it was more complex than 'my Primarch is going, so I am.'

Well they have kept chaos under wraps for 10k years, so i dont know how long "A matter of time" Is but apparently its well over 10k years. Remember the average citizen does not know about daemons. At most they think they are just fairy tales. Hell majority of them only know horus as a story as well, viewed as a devil figure.

 Backspacehacker wrote:
Well they have kept chaos under wraps for 10k years, so i dont know how long "A matter of time" Is but apparently its well over 10k years. Remember the average citizen does not know about daemons. At most they think they are just fairy tales. Hell majority of them only know horus as a story as well, viewed as a devil figure.

It isn't a matter of if they can keep it a secret, the point is what if the Emperor told everyone in the Imperium about Chaos.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

 Backspacehacker wrote:
Well they have kept chaos under wraps for 10k years, so i dont know how long "A matter of time" Is but apparently its well over 10k years. Remember the average citizen does not know about daemons. At most they think they are just fairy tales. Hell majority of them only know horus as a story as well, viewed as a devil figure.

It isn't a matter of if they can keep it a secret, the point is what if the Emperor told everyone in the Imperium about Chaos.

If he told everyone about chaos? Probably would only slow down what he has already done since more people would want to try and use the warp for their own gain or for the gain of humanity. Same thing with the primarchs, some of them would want to use the warp and understand it.

 Backspacehacker wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

 Backspacehacker wrote:
Well they have kept chaos under wraps for 10k years, so i dont know how long "A matter of time" Is but apparently its well over 10k years. Remember the average citizen does not know about daemons. At most they think they are just fairy tales. Hell majority of them only know horus as a story as well, viewed as a devil figure.

It isn't a matter of if they can keep it a secret, the point is what if the Emperor told everyone in the Imperium about Chaos.

If he told everyone about chaos? Probably would only slow down what he has already done since more people would want to try and use the warp for their own gain or for the gain of humanity. Same thing with the primarchs, some of them would want to use the warp and understand it.

What I wondered is if the Emperor could create some kind of indoctrination and training against Chaos, kind of like with the Astartes, obviously it wouldn't be that effective as it is with Astartes, but I just wonder what it would have been like.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

 Backspacehacker wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

 Backspacehacker wrote:
Well they have kept chaos under wraps for 10k years, so i dont know how long "A matter of time" Is but apparently its well over 10k years. Remember the average citizen does not know about daemons. At most they think they are just fairy tales. Hell majority of them only know horus as a story as well, viewed as a devil figure.

It isn't a matter of if they can keep it a secret, the point is what if the Emperor told everyone in the Imperium about Chaos.

If he told everyone about chaos? Probably would only slow down what he has already done since more people would want to try and use the warp for their own gain or for the gain of humanity. Same thing with the primarchs, some of them would want to use the warp and understand it.

What I wondered is if the Emperor could create some kind of indoctrination and training against Chaos, kind of like with the Astartes, obviously it wouldn't be that effective as it is with Astartes, but I just wonder what it would have been like.

Probably not, its easier to to kill them off. Remember psykers are super rare, about 1 in a million will be born and a single one can doom an entire planet.

 Backspacehacker wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

 Backspacehacker wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

 Backspacehacker wrote:
Well they have kept chaos under wraps for 10k years, so i dont know how long "A matter of time" Is but apparently its well over 10k years. Remember the average citizen does not know about daemons. At most they think they are just fairy tales. Hell majority of them only know horus as a story as well, viewed as a devil figure.

It isn't a matter of if they can keep it a secret, the point is what if the Emperor told everyone in the Imperium about Chaos.

If he told everyone about chaos? Probably would only slow down what he has already done since more people would want to try and use the warp for their own gain or for the gain of humanity. Same thing with the primarchs, some of them would want to use the warp and understand it.

What I wondered is if the Emperor could create some kind of indoctrination and training against Chaos, kind of like with the Astartes, obviously it wouldn't be that effective as it is with Astartes, but I just wonder what it would have been like.

Probably not, its easier to to kill them off. Remember psykers are super rare, about 1 in a million will be born and a single one can doom an entire planet.

Killing them off like they do now is a terrible cost the Imperium has to make, they get rid of whole planets, think of the resources and the work force they wipe out in one swing, especially now with the great rift, also it was never the Emperors decision to just wipe them out, the Inquisition and High Lords do that without knowing whether they can handle a population that knows about daemons, their attitude is basically just get rid of what we don't understand, also heavily influenced by religion 'the unclean' etc. I don't know why you bring up psykers.

To the imperium the cost is totally worth it. I imagine that this policy was born out of experience. Warp incursion, army deal with it, then later....bigger worse warp incursion. I think the problem is, knowing of chaos allows chaos to start manipulating and tempting u. Most could only resist so long. Especially as most imperial citizens lives aren’t great. Eventually they would turn. And also the cost of an indoctrination process like you suggest isn’t low. A billion worlds???

Let’s assume that the emperor did trick chaos, and he did say he’d tell everyone about chaos. We could assume the emperor understood the nature of chaos a bit, hence his alleged betrayal.

He would therefore have a very strong suspicion that what chaos wanted wouldn’t be good for the dream of humanity he had. And we can too then.

So we can also assume that if he had done what chaos had wanted it would have been bad for humanity and good for chaos. Probably very very bad. Like living in the eye of terror bad.