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Scenario: you charged and flesh wounded the dude. Next turn you win the initiative roll-off. You have to move first. Your CC dude can only retreat. Then it's your opponent's turn to move. He just falls back. So basically if you WIN the initiative roll-off when you're in combat, you basically lose the fight phase for that model... there's no way to prevent this?

You can always choose to move other models first. If that's not possible, then be prepared for needing to shoot the flesh-wounded model.

From what I know, there isn't a way to prevent this, but I could be wrong.

You have to move all your models before the opponent does the same. So the only way to prevent it is charging with another model

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
So basically if you WIN the initiative roll-off when you're in combat, you basically lose the fight phase for that model... there's no way to prevent this?

Like most of us, I'm still getting to grips with the rules, but I think you're exactly right.

It's a quirk of the game, but it seems to me that "winning" initiative is a significant DISadvantage in the Movement Phase. Maybe that's intentional? It's an advantage to go first in the Shooting and Fighting Phases, so a disadvantage in Movement de-emphasizes the importance of winning what is essentially a coin-flip to determine initiative order.

Yeah, sounds more like "it's got a bug, it's a feature" type thing.

Oh hey, we figured out what you're supposed to use pistols for!

or grenades, as when you fall back you can't advance and seen as most things have 6" move, just krak grenade them in the face!

Can't you use the movement of your other models to flank, surround and box in the model so that it can't retreat?

I feel like getting the initiative and being able to make all your moves is a huge advantage. If you fail to take that advantage and run away... well, that's kind of on you, right?

If you have three models surrounding one, and you place them all at equidistant points on the base (so, in as close to an equilateral triangle as you can get), then you can stop anyone from falling back. This is because their base can't move without going over enemy models.

Of course, except models with Fly.

I guess it's one of those reasons to use Decisive Move. Lock the enemy down - surround him with models.

So, you charge. You fight a round. Both survive.

Next round, you move first. He falls back.
-His model can't do anything
-Your model can still shoot.

Congrats, you "won" combat. You're in a better spot.

As for "But then the other guys can shoot me!" - Yeah, that's what other guys do. What are your other guys doing? Why didn't they charge the guys waiting to shoot your guy? Or just shoot them? Or even charge the guy who wants to fall back (doesn't being charged prevent you from falling back for a turn?)?

I'm still seeing this maneuver as a 'win' for the model that won CC.

Excuse me, since when do genetealers(nids) and flayed ones have guns? You can't go "lol get a pistol" when there are plenty of no guns dudes

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
Excuse me, since when do genetealers(nids) and flayed ones have guns? You can't go "lol get a pistol" when there are plenty of no guns dudes

“Oops!” - GW design team 2018

That's part of the strategy here. Deployment and movement are incredibly critical to Kill Team, to the point that I think people underestimate it for the first few games. Surrounding an enemy so they can't escape combat, or readying some models so that when an enemy *does* escape combat, you can gun them down just like they're going to try to do to you. Then there's also Decisive Move, which can help you keep that guy in combat even if you go first and he falls back.

There's ways around this 'disadvantage', and of course, it might not always happen. You might get turn 2 after your guy is in close combat next turn and be able to keep the enemy charged.

If you throw your model in unsupported and hope for the best, then yeah, you might have a bad movement phase.

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
Excuse me, since when do genetealers(nids) and flayed ones have guns? You can't go "lol get a pistol" when there are plenty of no guns dudes

One Genestealer in team can actually take flesh hooks, which is a gun. But still a valid point.

A more valid point would be, if you can't kill the guy in one round of CC, then he has a chance to run away. And if:
-You have no other models nearby to charge it
-You have no guns
-He wins first move on the following turn

He might actually get away. But that's a lot of conditions to escape after surviving a round of CC. And only a 1/4 chance that the turn order falls that way.

Well basically you have to send at least 3 melee dudes in 1 close group. The "you have no guns" being part of this equation is really silly.

Considering the balance of the game, an army with no shooting will lose 1/4 of it's games so it's not like you won't have something that can shoot the retreating model.

That said, assault heavy teams should basically be looking to engage new targets almost every turn. So putting multiple models into a single one, (followed by piling in to surround it and ensure it can't run away if the assault fails) and then killing it before consolidating towards enemy lines (and your next target) looks like the smart way to play melee focused games.

Interestingly there is a second way this scenario can happen: if you successfully charge. Nothing stops a charged model from falling back, even if you Retreated first and still got pulled into combat:

Retreat
A target model cannot Retreat if it has already made a
move of any kind (or attempted to charge) in this phase.
A model can Retreat if it has already fired Overwatch in
this phase. When a model Retreats, it can be moved up
to 3" by the controlling player. This move must end with
the model further away from the charging model, and
more than 1" from any other enemy models. A model
that Retreats cannot React later in the battle round,
and cannot shoot later in the battle round (unless it can
FLY). If you have Kill Team tokens, place a Fall Back
token next to the model as a reminder.

So you could be charged, elect to retreat, still get pulled into combat, then activate the model on your movement phase and fall back ending the assault just because you went second and can leave that melee model out in the open for other units to shoot at.

Feels like positioning will be super important for assault focused armies and multi-charging single models will be a key for success if you want to focus on melee over shooting or running a more balanced list.

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Considering the balance of the game, an army with no shooting will lose 1/4 of it's games so it's not like you won't have something that can shoot the retreating model.

That said, assault heavy teams should basically be looking to engage new targets almost every turn. So putting multiple models into a single one, (followed by piling in to surround it and ensure it can't run away if the assault fails) and then killing it before consolidating towards enemy lines (and your next target) looks like the smart way to play melee focused games.

Interestingly there is a second way this scenario can happen: if you successfully charge. Nothing stops a charged model from falling back, even if you Retreated first and still got pulled into combat:

Retreat
A target model cannot Retreat if it has already made a
move of any kind (or attempted to charge) in this phase.
A model can Retreat if it has already fired Overwatch in
this phase. When a model Retreats, it can be moved up
to 3" by the controlling player. This move must end with
the model further away from the charging model, and
more than 1" from any other enemy models. A model
that Retreats cannot React later in the battle round,
and cannot shoot later in the battle round (unless it can
FLY). If you have Kill Team tokens, place a Fall Back
token next to the model as a reminder.

So you could be charged, elect to retreat, still get pulled into combat, then activate the model on your movement phase and fall back ending the assault just because you went second and can leave that melee model out in the open for other units to shoot at.

Feels like positioning will be super important for assault focused armies and multi-charging single models will be a key for success if you want to focus on melee over shooting or running a more balanced list.

Well if you get charged by a different enemy model that phase - you may not Fall Back, as that's stated in the rules for Falling Back itself.

"Falling Back" (p.22) - Kill Team Core Manual wrote:
... A model may not Fall Back if an enemy model finished a charge move within 1" of it in the same phase...

 Larks wrote:
Well if you get charged by a different enemy model that phase - you may not Fall Back, as that's stated in the rules for Falling Back itself.

"Falling Back" (p.22) - Kill Team Core Manual wrote:
... A model may not Fall Back if an enemy model finished a charge move within 1" of it in the same phase...

I'm glad to see this actually since it'll keep Tau from just dancing around the table all the time.

That said, my points about positioning being important and melee armies wanting to completely kill a target before rolling into the next one while locking the target in combat in case they fluff it still stands.