Kill Team: Would you be willing to let someone use Berzerkers as CSM?

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**ServiceGames**

Hey all,

I'm a bit tight on cash at the moment but would really like to try a World Eaters Kill Team. That said, I have no CSM models to use. So, if I were playing against you in a casual game, would you let me use Berzerker models as Chaos Space Marines in a Kill Team game?

Thanks in advance

SG

**Mmmpi**

I have no issues with that, as long as I know ahead of time!

**Marmatag**

Yes, of course, the kits are essentially the same, there is literally no reason why I would be uptight about this. Just have them marked clearly, and make sure they fit in paint-scheme wise with everything else.

I also would have no problem with CSM being used as Berzerkers, provided there is the same kind of consistency.

If I encountered this in a tournament it would not bother me in the slightest. My army is full WYSIWYG, but i don't hold people I play with to that standard. Fun first and foremost.

**Bharring**

A CSM model with a boltgun? I guess.

A CSM model with CC gear to match? Definitely.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
I want to flesh that out a little more:

"Does this model have a rules entry in the rules" =>
Yes - use it.
No - use the closest match.

"Is there a close match" =>
Yes - Counts-as. As good or better than the "real thing!"
No - Proxy. Not ideal, but it works. The closer the better.

If you use the closest match, it's a counts-as, not a proxy. I accept proxies, with varying levels of enthusiasm. Counts-as, on the other hand, I support enthusiastically.

**goundry**

lol so maybe its because I'm an imperial player but to me you just asked can you uses a chaos space marine to represent a chaos space marine

**craggy**

I mean... They're not Not Chaos Space Marines...

**Crimson**

As long as they have roughly the right gear.

**ServiceGames**

goundry wrote:
lol so maybe its because I'm an imperial player but to me you just asked can you uses a chaos space marine to represent a chaos space marine

I honestly think you're right, but the head is a little different (shoulder pads may have a slightly different design as well), but that's really it. It is asking if I can use a Chaos Space Marine as a Chaos Space Marine. I could be wrong, but I think Chaos Chosen are very much the same... even though they take up an Elite slot instead of a Troops slot, they look very similar to regular Chaos Space Marines.

SG

**Bharring**

In these cases, the particular Marine has upgrades that can't be taken in Kill Team. Lets try some comparisions:

If a loyalist asks "Can I bring a dev squad"? The answer should be:
-Counts-as Tacs
-Sarge gets no benefit from Signum
-Limit 1 Heavy
-No Cherub

Likewise, if your CSM can fit something in the rules, it should be fine.

For other examples:
-Howling Banshee could be a Dire Avenger Exarch w/ Dire Sword - rules are a little different, but it works.
-Swooping Hawk or Dark Reaper shouldn't be allowed, because they're not like anything CWE can field.

**Wolf_in_Human_Shape**

No problem, really, but if every model is holding a pistol and chainaxe and you’re saying one has a Heavy Bolter, one has a Boltgun, one has pistol/chainsword, etc., then that will quickly become a little frustrating and complicate things unnecessarily. Be considerate and find a way to mark them out somehow, if not buy the proper bits.

**Marmatag**

Bharring wrote:

If a loyalist asks "Can I bring a dev squad"? The answer should be:
-Counts-as Tacs

What nightmarish hellscape requires you tell your opponents a devastator marine is a "counts-as" tac marine? They are the same.

**Slayer-Fan123**

I'd have had several questions if you were talking about a regular game and not Killteam.

Make sure wargear is properly represented and you'll be fine.

**Bharring**

The one where Tacs can't take signums or cherubs or 2+ Heavies?

I think we're aiming at the same point: they're basically the same thing. If the rules allow you to take a Tac squaddie, and you take a Dev squaddie instead, nobody should ever care. They're the same thing. But for any rules that specify Tacs, they affect the Dev models, because they aren't Devs in KT.

So, if you have models that don't have rules in KT, but are a perfect fit for a different unit that does, that's not a problem at all.

**ServiceGames**

My Berzerkers will be equipped with a bolt pistol and chain sword just like the CSM would be. Again, may be very slight variations in armor or shoulder pad ornamentation as well as helmet, but that's it.

SG

**Crimson**

ServiceGames wrote:
My Berzerkers will be equipped with a bolt pistol and chain sword just like the CSM would be. Again, may be very slight variations in armor or shoulder pad ornamentation as well as helmet, but that's it.

That is 100% fine then.

**NoiseMarine with Tinnitus**

Wouldn't bat an eyelid.

**SHUPPET**

First 100% poll I've ever seen - not just on here but in my lifetime.

Anyone who would say no has completely misunderstood what this hobby is about.

**Cleatus**

'umies is 'umies. Don't matter if dey got spikes on der 'eads or wot. Iz all da same ter da Boyz!

**stroller**

Go for it.

**Jidmah**

Kill! Maim! Burn!

I do wonder though why Plague Marines and Rubrics are fine for Kill Team but Zerkers and Noise Marines are not.

**alextroy**

Because Plague Marines and Rubric Marines are the Troops choices for their respective Codexes. Berserkers and Noise Marines are Elites for Chaos Space Marines. If/when World Eaters and Emperor's Children get Codexes, I'm sure GW will fix that for their Kill Teams.

**Hawehu@hotmail.com**

I have no toh towards you ServiceGames.

**Arachnofiend**

If anything, a Khorne-marked CSM should essentially be a Berzerker with chainaxe to match. I feel like CSM is really weak compared to the other options for marines and making the marks actually do something to differentiate CSM would have gone a long way to help that.

**Eonfuzz**

Yes, but it depends on the context. If this was a super serious competitive tournament I'd say "Yeah, no".

**DarknessEternal**

The no votes are just baffling to me.

Why would anyone even care.

**Strg Alt**

Yes.

Only one thing is important as long as your red CSM do their vanilla CSM-cosplay: Proper representation of equipment. As soon as you say something like this we will have problems:
Bill & Bob have a bolt pistol & a chainsword. But Tom & Tiger over there, which are also modeled with bolt pistol & chainsword, have a missile launcher & heavy bolter respectively.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

DarknessEternal wrote:
The no votes are just baffling to me.

Why would anyone even care.

They only wanted to trigger people with their response.

**Jidmah**

alextroy wrote:
Because Plague Marines and Rubric Marines are the Troops choices for their respective Codexes. Berserkers and Noise Marines are Elites for Chaos Space Marines. If/when World Eaters and Emperor's Children get Codexes, I'm sure GW will fix that for their Kill Teams.

I don't know, would it really have been that much of a bother to just include kill teams for all four big legions right away?

**Crimson**

Only thing to add is that I'd obviously expect them to be Khorne marked, otherwise it would be weird.