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Asmodios wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
I still maintain that the real problem is lethality.

The lethality of Warhammer 40k has escalated to the point where the only way to survive is to say "I literally have more wounds than you have bullets."

Baneblades/Knights getting deleted in a single turn is a symptom of a game that has a huge lethality problem. Hordes are strong only because they do not die quickly, since there is a cap on the number of shots that can be fired at them.

If, like AOS, damage spilled over (so a Lascannon hit could kill d6 guardsmen), you'd see even Hordes evaporate. So perhaps we could start by reducing the lethality of big guns, which makes elite units tougher, while keeping the same lethality of currently "useless" guns (e.g. bolters). That way, the typical guns fired at Guardsmen would kill them just as dead, but the typical guns fired at Space Marines would not kill Marines as dead.

Double-firing on the Leman Russ is bad. 24 Str 6 shots from a Hive Tyrant is bad. Captain Smash one-rounding a Knight is bad. 500 attacks in the Fight Phase is bad. There are so many units that fire a bazillionty shots that hit like a truck that the only way to survive is to have a bazillionty-and-one wounds on the board, which is best accomplished by buying the cheapest wounds possible.

I'm not surprised to see a forum where Castellans are getting one-shot complain about Guard. The amount of sheer lethality in 40k is Too Damn High!

Option 1: Nebulous plan involving total rebalancing of the game.
Option 2: Increase cost of guardsmen 1-2 points per model.

hmm

Option 3: Look at actual statistics being gathered from tournaments like the BAO and recognize that armies that were primary IG did not even make the top 5 for win % or points earned per round and that pure IG is considered so bad nobody even attempts to take it

Really? "Pure IG is considered so bad nobody even attemps to take it"?

Man. Wow.

 Galas wrote:

Asmodios wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
I still maintain that the real problem is lethality.

The lethality of Warhammer 40k has escalated to the point where the only way to survive is to say "I literally have more wounds than you have bullets."

Baneblades/Knights getting deleted in a single turn is a symptom of a game that has a huge lethality problem. Hordes are strong only because they do not die quickly, since there is a cap on the number of shots that can be fired at them.

If, like AOS, damage spilled over (so a Lascannon hit could kill d6 guardsmen), you'd see even Hordes evaporate. So perhaps we could start by reducing the lethality of big guns, which makes elite units tougher, while keeping the same lethality of currently "useless" guns (e.g. bolters). That way, the typical guns fired at Guardsmen would kill them just as dead, but the typical guns fired at Space Marines would not kill Marines as dead.

Double-firing on the Leman Russ is bad. 24 Str 6 shots from a Hive Tyrant is bad. Captain Smash one-rounding a Knight is bad. 500 attacks in the Fight Phase is bad. There are so many units that fire a bazillionty shots that hit like a truck that the only way to survive is to have a bazillionty-and-one wounds on the board, which is best accomplished by buying the cheapest wounds possible.

I'm not surprised to see a forum where Castellans are getting one-shot complain about Guard. The amount of sheer lethality in 40k is Too Damn High!

Option 1: Nebulous plan involving total rebalancing of the game.
Option 2: Increase cost of guardsmen 1-2 points per model.

hmm

Option 3: Look at actual statistics being gathered from tournaments like the BAO and recognize that armies that were primary IG did not even make the top 5 for win % or points earned per round and that pure IG is considered so bad nobody even attempts to take it

Really? "Pure IG is considered so bad nobody even attemps to take it"?

Man. Wow.

why "WoW"?
Show me the pure guard lists at the BAO they don't exist.... at least not in the top 40.
Look at the win percentages by primary detachment..... guard don't even make the top list
Look at points per round by primary detachment.... guard doesn't make it.

Why is every response to actual statistics and data either ignored or met by a sarcastic answer like "wow" without ever being addressed?

Because you totally miss-present and your analisis of the data is absolutely wrong and twisted, as Shuppet has made clear again and again.

You pick the data and then pass it trought your own personal criteria to warp it and support your point, like ignoring the three primary imperial guard armies in the top 10 because reasons.

Theres no pure guard List because why play pure guard when you can play Imperial Soup. But then you jump and say that Imperial Guard is not used, even being in the top 3 of monofactions of the game, because it is SO bad.

Mono guard it is not used just like mono-eldar or mono-chaos are not used. Because soup exists. That does not mean Dark Eldar aren't a problem by themselves without help from Ynnari an CWE.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
I still maintain that the real problem is lethality.

The lethality of Warhammer 40k has escalated to the point where the only way to survive is to say "I literally have more wounds than you have bullets."

Baneblades/Knights getting deleted in a single turn is a symptom of a game that has a huge lethality problem. Hordes are strong only because they do not die quickly, since there is a cap on the number of shots that can be fired at them.

If, like AOS, damage spilled over (so a Lascannon hit could kill d6 guardsmen), you'd see even Hordes evaporate. So perhaps we could start by reducing the lethality of big guns, which makes elite units tougher, while keeping the same lethality of currently "useless" guns (e.g. bolters). That way, the typical guns fired at Guardsmen would kill them just as dead, but the typical guns fired at Space Marines would not kill Marines as dead.

Double-firing on the Leman Russ is bad. 24 Str 6 shots from a Hive Tyrant is bad. Captain Smash one-rounding a Knight is bad. 500 attacks in the Fight Phase is bad. There are so many units that fire a bazillionty shots that hit like a truck that the only way to survive is to have a bazillionty-and-one wounds on the board, which is best accomplished by buying the cheapest wounds possible.

I'm not surprised to see a forum where Castellans are getting one-shot complain about Guard. The amount of sheer lethality in 40k is Too Damn High!

Don't forget the dissy cannon. Overall, I'd agree with this statement. The guardsmen wouldn't be as bad if I wasn't in a mad rush to get the double-fire russes and manticores. Because their lethality is so high.

 Galas wrote:
Because you totally miss-present and your analisis of the data is absolutely wrong and twisted, as Shuppet has made clear again and again.

You pick the data and then pass it trought your own personal criteria to warp it and support your point, like ignoring the three primary imperial guard armies in the top 10 because reasons.

Theres no pure guard List because why play pure guard when you can play Imperial Soup. But then you jump and say that Imperial Guard is not used, even being in the top 3 of monofactions of the game, because it is SO bad.

Mono guard it is not used just like mono-eldar or mono-chaos are not used. Because soup exists. That does not mean Dark Eldar aren't a problem by themselves without help from Ynnari an CWE.

No, I present actual data...... You provide zero data but make claims as "common sense"

I present actual data over and over and your response over and over is to simply press on with "IG is broken" well provide some actual data and people might change their mind
If we are going on top finishes alone then we need to be talking about nuking blight lord terminators and knights
But win percentage and points per round is a much better statistical analysis that you don't have a counterpoint for

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
I still maintain that the real problem is lethality.

The lethality of Warhammer 40k has escalated to the point where the only way to survive is to say "I literally have more wounds than you have bullets."

Baneblades/Knights getting deleted in a single turn is a symptom of a game that has a huge lethality problem. Hordes are strong only because they do not die quickly, since there is a cap on the number of shots that can be fired at them.

If, like AOS, damage spilled over (so a Lascannon hit could kill d6 guardsmen), you'd see even Hordes evaporate. So perhaps we could start by reducing the lethality of big guns, which makes elite units tougher, while keeping the same lethality of currently "useless" guns (e.g. bolters). That way, the typical guns fired at Guardsmen would kill them just as dead, but the typical guns fired at Space Marines would not kill Marines as dead.

Double-firing on the Leman Russ is bad. 24 Str 6 shots from a Hive Tyrant is bad. Captain Smash one-rounding a Knight is bad. 500 attacks in the Fight Phase is bad. There are so many units that fire a bazillionty shots that hit like a truck that the only way to survive is to have a bazillionty-and-one wounds on the board, which is best accomplished by buying the cheapest wounds possible.

I'm not surprised to see a forum where Castellans are getting one-shot complain about Guard. The amount of sheer lethality in 40k is Too Damn High!

You're not wrong. I pretty much agree with everything, except I think wounds not spilling is ultimately a good thing as it makes different weapons effective versus differnt targets. But yes, there are too much high lethality weapons in the game. As redesigning half of the weapons in the game probably is not realistic, the easy solution would be to increase the point costs of some of those weapons. Though double shooting Russes probably need to go. Get rid of that ability and perhaps give them a small point decrease to compensate.

Also guard did win not one but Two tournaments with an infantry heavy Catachan list in July.
They also gained the most top 3 places in events in the month of July.

Or so says Almost Pro

Top lists where

1 Astra Millicheese
2 Drukari
3 Knight's
4 Craftworld
5 Alpha Legion
6 Thousand sons
7 Yannari
8 Death Guard
9 Tyranids
10 Necrons

Not really seeing how Astra Copyright are a weak faction being punished by soup?

Ice_can wrote:
Also guard did win not one but Two tournaments with an infantry heavy Catachan list in July.
They also gained the most top 3 places in events in the month of July.

Or so says Almost Pro

Top lists where

1 Astra Millicheese
2 Drukari
3 Knight's
4 Craftworld
5 Alpha Legion
6 Thousand sons
7 Yannari
8 Death Guard
9 Tyranids
10 Necrons

Not really seeing how Astra Copyright are a weak faction being punished by soup?

Listen to his youtube video again
Not a single one of those lists is pure guard

Guard need another army to funnel CP into because of weak strategems

Everyones issue should be the sharing of CP between detachments as this lets armies like IG to super charge armies like Knights BA and custodes while xeno armies have no option to do the same

See Asmodios?

"This armies were 90% Imperial Guard and they ended uup all in the top 10"

-"B-b-bu they aren't pure guard so that means Imperial Guard sucks!"

If you fix the sharing of CP (I'm not saying you shouldn't fix that problem) youll destroy soups, custodes, imperial knights, BA. But not Imperial Guard. You'll only make Eldar even more dominant.

If you want to make an anti-horde weapon you must pass three criteria

1. The weapon is not useful against vehicles
2. The weapon is not useful against 4+ save targets
3. The weapon must not be cost effective on units that are <=5 men.

The only correct way of solving all of these issues is by introducing special rules on the weapons. One such special rule exists already on the Leviathan Dreadnoughts grav weapon that scales to the unit size.

Let us take that weapon rule and apply it to a flamer. Meanwhile let us make an entirely new flamer profile while we are at it.


For every five models in a target unit you gain an two additional auto-hits on the target unit in addition to the number of shots on the weapon's profile.

I imagine the base flamer would be something like this now.

Assault 1d6 Autohits
8 Inch Str 3 AP0 D1

This weapon may not target anything with the Airborne ability.
Units targeted with this weapon do not receive the benefits of cover.





Automatically Appended Next Post:
Quick math tells me this profile and ruleset actually makes it so that a min squad of guardsmen and marine compared side by side actually make it so that the guardsmen actually lose more points for the first time ever than the SM.

 Galas wrote:
See Asmodios?

"This armies were 90% Imperial Guard and they ended uup all in the top 10"

-"B-b-bu they aren't pure guard so that means Imperial Guard sucks!"

If you fix the sharing of CP (I'm not saying you shouldn't fix that problem) youll destroy soups, custodes, imperial knights, BA. But not Imperial Guard. You'll only make Eldar even more dominant.

You need to learn some reading comprehension. It's no different from the BAO. The frequency of guard being taken with x army souped in is very high. This raises the pure number entering tournaments and thus increases the percentage of top spots that will be claimed. Meanwhile, if you look at the weekly ITC stats of those of tournaments like BAO that collect them the actual win percentage of primary guard is actually very low on the power rankings as well as points earned per round.

Still waiting on you to post some actual statistics there buddy... im waiting

Asmodios wrote:

Ice_can wrote:
Also guard did win not one but Two tournaments with an infantry heavy Catachan list in July.
They also gained the most top 3 places in events in the month of July.

Or so says Almost Pro

Top lists where

1 Astra Millicheese
2 Drukari
3 Knight's
4 Craftworld
5 Alpha Legion
6 Thousand sons
7 Yannari
8 Death Guard
9 Tyranids
10 Necrons

Not really seeing how Astra Copyright are a weak faction being punished by soup?

Listen to his youtube video again
Not a single one of those lists is pure guard

Guard need another army to funnel CP into because of weak strategems

Everyones issue should be the sharing of CP between detachments as this lets armies like IG to super charge armies like Knights BA and custodes while xeno armies have no option to do the same

No - they don't.
First they stratagems aren't weak. They have +1 to hit stratagem (Amazing). +1 armor stratagem. Over-watch on 5+. Hit on 2+ witch vehicles. Overall gaurd can spam these abilities.

Second - they don't have to take a CP funnel. They just do because they can. It's really not clear how much more powerful IG taking allies is compared to mono gaurd. Ultimately 3 sheild captains could just be 3 manticores or russes...Yeah - if you don't understand that. I know what I would fear a lot more if I was playing Imperial knights.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Also - while your at it GW. Why don't you just make it so every army capable of generation the number of command points they need to function. Allies should be a cool option - not a requirement for competitive play.

I'm actually kind of coming around to the view that the way the Imperium is set up is actually superior to codexes that have what they need. Chaff is just kind of important to the game and in a lot of ways, the only real solution to a lot of armies is giving them their own cheap troop option. This really isn't a factor of CP or detachments or anything; its just kind of 40k. So one way to solve this is to give everyone what they need. Make an "Infantry" troop option for every army. The problem is, troops are one of those things that don't really make sense to diversify, which is why your best troop is essentially your only. I consider this the "scout" option and on the whole I don't think it actually works.

The current setup seems to do it right, even if players are screaming tooth and nail to stop it. It gives a bunch of armies the chaff they need to function, but it doesn't invalidate more specialized troop options. That's.... honestly kind of cool and I like how it breaks up armies and makes them more interesting. I can see the benefits of dividing other areas up similarly. Orks are always the one that springs to mind as an army that would really thrive if the boyz were kind of their own thing with a lot of their variety broken up into smaller subfactions that supported more specialized rules. I think the 8th edition Imperium is a template for a better, more expandable game; GW just needs to throw out some serious Xenos support to make it more widely available.

 LunarSol wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Also - while your at it GW. Why don't you just make it so every army capable of generation the number of command points they need to function. Allies should be a cool option - not a requirement for competitive play.

I'm actually kind of coming around to the view that the way the Imperium is set up is actually superior to codexes that have what they need. Chaff is just kind of important to the game and in a lot of ways, the only real solution to a lot of armies is giving them their own cheap troop option. This really isn't a factor of CP or detachments or anything; its just kind of 40k. So one way to solve this is to give everyone what they need. Make an "Infantry" troop option for every army. The problem is, troops are one of those things that don't really make sense to diversify, which is why your best troop is essentially your only. I consider this the "scout" option and on the whole I don't think it actually works.

The current setup seems to do it right, even if players are screaming tooth and nail to stop it. It gives a bunch of armies the chaff they need to function, but it doesn't invalidate more specialized troop options. That's.... honestly kind of cool and I like how it breaks up armies and makes them more interesting. I can see the benefits of dividing other areas up similarly. Orks are always the one that springs to mind as an army that would really thrive if the boyz were kind of their own thing with a lot of their variety broken up into smaller subfactions that supported more specialized rules. I think the 8th edition Imperium is a template for a better, more expandable game; GW just needs to throw out some serious Xenos support to make it more widely available.

I really don't think expanding on the problem is a good solution.

Armies should not have to go to other codex to get command points. Period. Just remake the way command points are generated.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Asmodios wrote:

Ice_can wrote:
Also guard did win not one but Two tournaments with an infantry heavy Catachan list in July.
They also gained the most top 3 places in events in the month of July.

Or so says Almost Pro

Top lists where

1 Astra Millicheese
2 Drukari
3 Knight's
4 Craftworld
5 Alpha Legion
6 Thousand sons
7 Yannari
8 Death Guard
9 Tyranids
10 Necrons

Not really seeing how Astra Copyright are a weak faction being punished by soup?

Listen to his youtube video again
Not a single one of those lists is pure guard

Guard need another army to funnel CP into because of weak strategems

Everyones issue should be the sharing of CP between detachments as this lets armies like IG to super charge armies like Knights BA and custodes while xeno armies have no option to do the same

No - they don't.
First they stratagems aren't weak. They have +1 to hit stratagem (Amazing). +1 armor stratagem. Over-watch on 5+. Hit on 2+ witch vehicles. Overall gaurd can spam these abilities.

Second - they don't have to take a CP funnel. They just do because they can. It's really not clear how much more powerful IG taking allies is compared to mono gaurd. Ultimately 3 sheild captains could just be 3 manticores or russes...Yeah - if you don't understand that. I know what I would fear a lot more if I was playing Imperial knights.

Its easy to see how much more powerful soup is then mono guard....... mono guard don't win, don't place and don't even get taken. The only success mono guard has had this edition was pre earthshaker and conscript nerf

 Xenomancers wrote:

No - they don't.
First they stratagems aren't weak. They have +1 to hit stratagem (Amazing).

Cadians have a +1 to Hit stratagem. It allows for other Cadian units to get +1 to hit versus an enemy unit that you have caused an unsaved Wound to with Cadians.

+1 armor stratagem.

"Take Cover!" gives a +1 to your saving throws but it has to be done during your opponent's Shooting phase and has to be declared on a unit that your enemy has chosen as the target of a shooting attack

Over-watch on 5+

"Defensive Gunners" is strictly on Astra Militarum vehicles and has to be used when you are charged.

Hit on 2+ witch vehicles.

"Crush Them!" is used at the start of the Charge phase and it is used on a vehicle that you have charge, it then gets to hit during the following Fight phase.

Overall gaurd can spam these abilities.

This kind of silly lack of understanding is why we cannot have productive conversations. None of those can be "spammed", they're all conditional.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 LunarSol wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Also - while your at it GW. Why don't you just make it so every army capable of generation the number of command points they need to function. Allies should be a cool option - not a requirement for competitive play.

I'm actually kind of coming around to the view that the way the Imperium is set up is actually superior to codexes that have what they need. Chaff is just kind of important to the game and in a lot of ways, the only real solution to a lot of armies is giving them their own cheap troop option. This really isn't a factor of CP or detachments or anything; its just kind of 40k. So one way to solve this is to give everyone what they need. Make an "Infantry" troop option for every army. The problem is, troops are one of those things that don't really make sense to diversify, which is why your best troop is essentially your only. I consider this the "scout" option and on the whole I don't think it actually works.

The current setup seems to do it right, even if players are screaming tooth and nail to stop it. It gives a bunch of armies the chaff they need to function, but it doesn't invalidate more specialized troop options. That's.... honestly kind of cool and I like how it breaks up armies and makes them more interesting. I can see the benefits of dividing other areas up similarly. Orks are always the one that springs to mind as an army that would really thrive if the boyz were kind of their own thing with a lot of their variety broken up into smaller subfactions that supported more specialized rules. I think the 8th edition Imperium is a template for a better, more expandable game; GW just needs to throw out some serious Xenos support to make it more widely available.

I really don't think expanding on the problem is a good solution.

Armies should not have to go to other codex to get command points. Period. Just remake the way command points are generated.

This I 100% agree with command points need a good looking at

Asmodios wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Asmodios wrote:

Ice_can wrote:
Also guard did win not one but Two tournaments with an infantry heavy Catachan list in July.
They also gained the most top 3 places in events in the month of July.

Or so says Almost Pro

Top lists where

1 Astra Millicheese
2 Drukari
3 Knight's
4 Craftworld
5 Alpha Legion
6 Thousand sons
7 Yannari
8 Death Guard
9 Tyranids
10 Necrons

Not really seeing how Astra Copyright are a weak faction being punished by soup?

Listen to his youtube video again
Not a single one of those lists is pure guard

Guard need another army to funnel CP into because of weak strategems

Everyones issue should be the sharing of CP between detachments as this lets armies like IG to super charge armies like Knights BA and custodes while xeno armies have no option to do the same

No - they don't.
First they stratagems aren't weak. They have +1 to hit stratagem (Amazing). +1 armor stratagem. Over-watch on 5+. Hit on 2+ witch vehicles. Overall gaurd can spam these abilities.

Second - they don't have to take a CP funnel. They just do because they can. It's really not clear how much more powerful IG taking allies is compared to mono gaurd. Ultimately 3 sheild captains could just be 3 manticores or russes...Yeah - if you don't understand that. I know what I would fear a lot more if I was playing Imperial knights.

Its easy to see how much more powerful soup is then mono guard....... mono guard don't win, don't place and don't even get taken. The only success mono guard has had this edition was pre earthshaker and conscript nerf

You've been repeating this over and over and it is obviously wrong. You can't just call tournament results fake news and be done with it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ice_can wrote:
Also guard did win not one but Two tournaments with an infantry heavy Catachan list in July.
They also gained the most top 3 places in events in the month of July.

Or so says Almost Pro

Top lists where

1 Astra Millicheese
2 Drukari
3 Knight's
4 Craftworld
5 Alpha Legion
6 Thousand sons
7 Yannari
8 Death Guard
9 Tyranids
10 Necrons

Not really seeing how Astra Copyright are a weak faction being punished by soup?

They aren't, AM is one of the strongest factions in the game. If it weren't for Eldar, and how easy it is to add custodes to guard (making it soup) they would be undisputed number 1.

So a list with over 1k of point worth of guardsmen doesn't show guard a strong its the 3 blood angles captains carrying the list?

Not the 12 mortors 6 infantry squads 3 hellhounds.

Pure blood angles arn't exactlly rofl stomping everyone.
Its having those 100 bodies to hide behind that makes those charictors survive long enough to be able to jump out and smash.

Also by your definition of Pure the onlu pure factions in competitive settings right now are Tau, Necrons and Orks as they have no allies.
Only Crons made the top ten with trip teract vaults which is a pretty weak gimic list.

So far your possition has been Guard arn't the problem soup is, no-one has said soup isn't an issue but thats not what this thread was about.

Guardsmen are better than every other 4ppm unit and better than some more expensive units.

Drukari and Alitoc being brokwn was used as an excuse that guard arn't OP. Just because something else is at 13 and your only at 11 while everyone else is in a 5-9 range doesn't make you not OP.

 Marmatag wrote:

Asmodios wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Asmodios wrote:

Ice_can wrote:
Also guard did win not one but Two tournaments with an infantry heavy Catachan list in July.
They also gained the most top 3 places in events in the month of July.

Or so says Almost Pro

Top lists where

1 Astra Millicheese
2 Drukari
3 Knight's
4 Craftworld
5 Alpha Legion
6 Thousand sons
7 Yannari
8 Death Guard
9 Tyranids
10 Necrons

Not really seeing how Astra Copyright are a weak faction being punished by soup?

Listen to his youtube video again
Not a single one of those lists is pure guard

Guard need another army to funnel CP into because of weak strategems

Everyones issue should be the sharing of CP between detachments as this lets armies like IG to super charge armies like Knights BA and custodes while xeno armies have no option to do the same

No - they don't.
First they stratagems aren't weak. They have +1 to hit stratagem (Amazing). +1 armor stratagem. Over-watch on 5+. Hit on 2+ witch vehicles. Overall gaurd can spam these abilities.

Second - they don't have to take a CP funnel. They just do because they can. It's really not clear how much more powerful IG taking allies is compared to mono gaurd. Ultimately 3 sheild captains could just be 3 manticores or russes...Yeah - if you don't understand that. I know what I would fear a lot more if I was playing Imperial knights.

Its easy to see how much more powerful soup is then mono guard....... mono guard don't win, don't place and don't even get taken. The only success mono guard has had this edition was pre earthshaker and conscript nerf

You've been repeating this over and over and it is obviously wrong. You can't just call tournament results fake news and be done with it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ice_can wrote:
Also guard did win not one but Two tournaments with an infantry heavy Catachan list in July.
They also gained the most top 3 places in events in the month of July.

Or so says Almost Pro

Top lists where

1 Astra Millicheese
2 Drukari
3 Knight's
4 Craftworld
5 Alpha Legion
6 Thousand sons
7 Yannari
8 Death Guard
9 Tyranids
10 Necrons

Not really seeing how Astra Copyright are a weak faction being punished by soup?

They aren't, AM is one of the strongest factions in the game. If it weren't for Eldar, and how easy it is to add custodes to guard (making it soup) they would be undisputed number 1.

So your argument is if
1. Eldar didn't exist
2. if you couldn't add in soup
Then guard would be number 1
yup you really proved to me with that statement that IG is broken
Did you also know that if you remove the rest of the armies from the game then necrons are broken?

Ice_can wrote:

Drukari and Alitoc being brokwn was used as an excuse that guard arn't OP. Just because something else is at 13 and your only at 11 while everyone else is in a 5-9 range doesn't make you not OP.

It does, however, mean that those 5-9 lads should probably be in the 10-13 range, rather than asking for anyone to be 5-9.

The IG have one of the best codexes out there in terms of crunch, competitiveness, fluff, and army composition options. The Grey Knights are the worst in all those categories. If I was a Space Marine player and looking at my options: would I rather my army be buffed to match Guard, with a variety of playstyles and interactions, or nerfed to match GK, with mono-build constructions and hardly any good options?

The worst codexes should be improved to match the best, not the other way around.

Ice_can wrote:
So a list with over 1k of point worth of guardsmen doesn't show guard a strong its the 3 blood angles captains carrying the list?

Not the 12 mortors 6 infantry squads 3 hellhounds.

Pure blood angles arn't exactlly rofl stomping everyone.
Its having those 100 bodies to hide behind that makes those charictors survive long enough to be able to jump out and smash.

Also by your definition of Pure the onlu pure factions in competitive settings right now are Tau, Necrons and Orks as they have no allies.
Only Crons made the top ten with trip teract vaults which is a pretty weak gimic list.

So far your possition has been Guard arn't the problem soup is, no-one has said soup isn't an issue but thats not what this thread was about.

Guardsmen are better than every other 4ppm unit and better than some more expensive units.

Drukari and Alitoc being brokwn was used as an excuse that guard arn't OP. Just because something else is at 13 and your only at 11 while everyone else is in a 5-9 range doesn't make you not OP.

Yeah so going by your argument because BA are good when souped with guard we should nuke BA to really F over all those mono faction players
Same for Knights
Same for custodes

This is all hilarious nonsense.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

Ice_can wrote:

Drukari and Alitoc being brokwn was used as an excuse that guard arn't OP. Just because something else is at 13 and your only at 11 while everyone else is in a 5-9 range doesn't make you not OP.

It does, however, mean that those 5-9 lads should probably be in the 10-13 range, rather than asking for anyone to be 5-9.

The IG have one of the best codexes out there in terms of crunch, competitiveness, fluff, and army composition options. The Grey Knights are the worst in all those categories. If I was a Space Marine player and looking at my options: would I rather my army be buffed to match Guard, with a variety of playstyles and interactions, or nerfed to match GK, with mono-build constructions and hardly any good options?

The worst codexes should be improved to match the best, not the other way around.

Except of the say 20 codex's
About 2 of them are at the 13 range 1 maybe 2 in the 11's
About 10 in the 5-10 range and 3/4 in the sub 5 range you don't give out buffs to 10 codex's to match the 1 or 2 you move thr outliers into the 5-10 range.

Your basically proposing buffing BA, DA, DG,Demons, Tau, Necrons, SM, GK, DW etc to Astra Militarum levels rather than admit Astra Militarum might be fairer with 5 point Infantry.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Asmodios wrote:

Ice_can wrote:
So a list with over 1k of point worth of guardsmen doesn't show guard a strong its the 3 blood angles captains carrying the list?

Not the 12 mortors 6 infantry squads 3 hellhounds.

Pure blood angles arn't exactlly rofl stomping everyone.
Its having those 100 bodies to hide behind that makes those charictors survive long enough to be able to jump out and smash.

Also by your definition of Pure the onlu pure factions in competitive settings right now are Tau, Necrons and Orks as they have no allies.
Only Crons made the top ten with trip teract vaults which is a pretty weak gimic list.

So far your possition has been Guard arn't the problem soup is, no-one has said soup isn't an issue but thats not what this thread was about.

Guardsmen are better than every other 4ppm unit and better than some more expensive units.

Drukari and Alitoc being brokwn was used as an excuse that guard arn't OP. Just because something else is at 13 and your only at 11 while everyone else is in a 5-9 range doesn't make you not OP.

Yeah so going by your argument because BA are good when souped with guard we should nuke BA to really F over all those mono faction players
Same for Knights
Same for custodes

Find me a tournament placing list with over 50% of it's points in Blood angles and I'll look at it.

I'm saying having over 50%of your points in one faction says that faction is definataly not uncompetitive, especially in imperial soup lists.

Ice_can wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

Ice_can wrote:

Drukari and Alitoc being brokwn was used as an excuse that guard arn't OP. Just because something else is at 13 and your only at 11 while everyone else is in a 5-9 range doesn't make you not OP.

It does, however, mean that those 5-9 lads should probably be in the 10-13 range, rather than asking for anyone to be 5-9.

The IG have one of the best codexes out there in terms of crunch, competitiveness, fluff, and army composition options. The Grey Knights are the worst in all those categories. If I was a Space Marine player and looking at my options: would I rather my army be buffed to match Guard, with a variety of playstyles and interactions, or nerfed to match GK, with mono-build constructions and hardly any good options?

The worst codexes should be improved to match the best, not the other way around.

Except of the say 20 codex's
About 2 of them are at the 13 range 1 maybe 2 in the 11's
About 10 in the 5-10 range and 3/4 in the sub 5 range you don't give out buffs to 10 codex's to match the 1 or 2 you move thr outliers into the 5-10 range.

Your basically proposing buffing BA, DA, DG,Demons, Tau, Necrons, SM, GK, DW etc to Astra Militarum levels rather than admit Astra Militarum might be fairer with 5 point Infantry.

Oh, I admit that AM would be fairer with 5pt infantry.

But I think the better game-state is achieved by everyone having fun, rather than making the people having fun have less fun because it's fair for everyone to live in equal amounts of squalor.

Asmodios wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:

Asmodios wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Asmodios wrote:

Ice_can wrote:
Also guard did win not one but Two tournaments with an infantry heavy Catachan list in July.
They also gained the most top 3 places in events in the month of July.

Or so says Almost Pro

Top lists where

1 Astra Millicheese
2 Drukari
3 Knight's
4 Craftworld
5 Alpha Legion
6 Thousand sons
7 Yannari
8 Death Guard
9 Tyranids
10 Necrons

Not really seeing how Astra Copyright are a weak faction being punished by soup?

Listen to his youtube video again
Not a single one of those lists is pure guard

Guard need another army to funnel CP into because of weak strategems

Everyones issue should be the sharing of CP between detachments as this lets armies like IG to super charge armies like Knights BA and custodes while xeno armies have no option to do the same

No - they don't.
First they stratagems aren't weak. They have +1 to hit stratagem (Amazing). +1 armor stratagem. Over-watch on 5+. Hit on 2+ witch vehicles. Overall gaurd can spam these abilities.

Second - they don't have to take a CP funnel. They just do because they can. It's really not clear how much more powerful IG taking allies is compared to mono gaurd. Ultimately 3 sheild captains could just be 3 manticores or russes...Yeah - if you don't understand that. I know what I would fear a lot more if I was playing Imperial knights.

Its easy to see how much more powerful soup is then mono guard....... mono guard don't win, don't place and don't even get taken. The only success mono guard has had this edition was pre earthshaker and conscript nerf

You've been repeating this over and over and it is obviously wrong. You can't just call tournament results fake news and be done with it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ice_can wrote:
Also guard did win not one but Two tournaments with an infantry heavy Catachan list in July.
They also gained the most top 3 places in events in the month of July.

Or so says Almost Pro

Top lists where

1 Astra Millicheese
2 Drukari
3 Knight's
4 Craftworld
5 Alpha Legion
6 Thousand sons
7 Yannari
8 Death Guard
9 Tyranids
10 Necrons

Not really seeing how Astra Copyright are a weak faction being punished by soup?

They aren't, AM is one of the strongest factions in the game. If it weren't for Eldar, and how easy it is to add custodes to guard (making it soup) they would be undisputed number 1.

So your argument is if
1. Eldar didn't exist
2. if you couldn't add in soup
Then guard would be number 1
yup you really proved to me with that statement that IG is broken
Did you also know that if you remove the rest of the armies from the game then necrons are broken?

And putting guardsmen at 5ppm would help with #2 and bring IG more in line as a mono faction. Eldar still need point adjustments but that is a different discussion.

Eldar problems are much more simple -

-1 to hit stratagem should only be able to be used in shooting phase.

removal of -1 to hit army traits game wide in favor of something less broken.

spears go up 5-7 points.

Ice_can wrote:
Find me a tournament placing list with over 50% of it's points in Blood angles and I'll look at it.

The LVO always springs to mind - Michael Brandt (54% BA), and Mark Wright (pure BA).
But as more imperial factions comes out it becomes more attractive to soup. Even if wolves were to come out tomorrow and be the runaway strongest army of the lot tourney players would still look to add to it.

Knights and BA are significantly improved by the endless CP battery. Remove that and that BA detachment disappears from competitive builds.

Knights probably come down from god-tier to IG tier (they probably need further nerfs).

5 pt guardsmen is the tip of the iceburg. Those FW hellhounds need a price hike and that d6 MW on blow-up needs to be reduced to d3 (hell all hellhounds probably need a 5-10 point hike). There are a lot of under-costed units in that codex (hell shadowswords would be a problem if knights weren't so busted).

The only thing holding guard in check right now is they run into some pretty hard auto-loss matchups. Anything that can stack neg to hit. Those altoric flyer lists are pretty much auto win vs most tourney level guard lists.

While I do agree that Guard seem to be getting piled onto a lot recently. I just don't see those players yelling at the top of their lungs "NO MY ARMY IS JUST FINE!!!!" for the most part.

DE, Eldar, knights and some chaos builds (fearless cultists, TSons princes) need adjusting just as much if not more (they have bad units which need some love but some really good units that need nerfs for sure).

Some of the lower tier armies (power armor, necrons outside of vaults, AdMech feel close) need buffing and a couple outlier units (hive guard, custode bikes, PBCs, tau suits on the opposite end of the spectrum) need adjusting.

I'd say if they could get the codexes near Nids (less hive guard and flyrants) the game would be in good shape. Bring down the big ones and boost the worst ones. Caveat is they should wait a couple months after the last dex's drop so we have a total picture of where we really are.

Ice_can wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

Ice_can wrote:

Drukari and Alitoc being brokwn was used as an excuse that guard arn't OP. Just because something else is at 13 and your only at 11 while everyone else is in a 5-9 range doesn't make you not OP.

It does, however, mean that those 5-9 lads should probably be in the 10-13 range, rather than asking for anyone to be 5-9.

The IG have one of the best codexes out there in terms of crunch, competitiveness, fluff, and army composition options. The Grey Knights are the worst in all those categories. If I was a Space Marine player and looking at my options: would I rather my army be buffed to match Guard, with a variety of playstyles and interactions, or nerfed to match GK, with mono-build constructions and hardly any good options?

The worst codexes should be improved to match the best, not the other way around.

Except of the say 20 codex's
About 2 of them are at the 13 range 1 maybe 2 in the 11's
About 10 in the 5-10 range and 3/4 in the sub 5 range you don't give out buffs to 10 codex's to match the 1 or 2 you move thr outliers into the 5-10 range.

Your basically proposing buffing BA, DA, DG,Demons, Tau, Necrons, SM, GK, DW etc to Astra Militarum levels rather than admit Astra Militarum might be fairer with 5 point Infantry.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Asmodios wrote:

Ice_can wrote:
So a list with over 1k of point worth of guardsmen doesn't show guard a strong its the 3 blood angles captains carrying the list?

Not the 12 mortors 6 infantry squads 3 hellhounds.

Pure blood angles arn't exactlly rofl stomping everyone.
Its having those 100 bodies to hide behind that makes those charictors survive long enough to be able to jump out and smash.

Also by your definition of Pure the onlu pure factions in competitive settings right now are Tau, Necrons and Orks as they have no allies.
Only Crons made the top ten with trip teract vaults which is a pretty weak gimic list.

So far your possition has been Guard arn't the problem soup is, no-one has said soup isn't an issue but thats not what this thread was about.

Guardsmen are better than every other 4ppm unit and better than some more expensive units.

Drukari and Alitoc being brokwn was used as an excuse that guard arn't OP. Just because something else is at 13 and your only at 11 while everyone else is in a 5-9 range doesn't make you not OP.

Yeah so going by your argument because BA are good when souped with guard we should nuke BA to really F over all those mono faction players
Same for Knights
Same for custodes

Find me a tournament placing list with over 50% of it's points in Blood angles and I'll look at it.

I'm saying having over 50%of your points in one faction says that faction is definataly not uncompetitive, especially in imperial soup lists.

So having to include another faction in order to play your faction makes your faction broken.... got it


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 DrGiggles wrote:

Asmodios wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:

Asmodios wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Asmodios wrote:

Ice_can wrote:
Also guard did win not one but Two tournaments with an infantry heavy Catachan list in July.
They also gained the most top 3 places in events in the month of July.

Or so says Almost Pro

Top lists where

1 Astra Millicheese
2 Drukari
3 Knight's
4 Craftworld
5 Alpha Legion
6 Thousand sons
7 Yannari
8 Death Guard
9 Tyranids
10 Necrons

Not really seeing how Astra Copyright are a weak faction being punished by soup?

Listen to his youtube video again
Not a single one of those lists is pure guard

Guard need another army to funnel CP into because of weak strategems

Everyones issue should be the sharing of CP between detachments as this lets armies like IG to super charge armies like Knights BA and custodes while xeno armies have no option to do the same

No - they don't.
First they stratagems aren't weak. They have +1 to hit stratagem (Amazing). +1 armor stratagem. Over-watch on 5+. Hit on 2+ witch vehicles. Overall gaurd can spam these abilities.

Second - they don't have to take a CP funnel. They just do because they can. It's really not clear how much more powerful IG taking allies is compared to mono gaurd. Ultimately 3 sheild captains could just be 3 manticores or russes...Yeah - if you don't understand that. I know what I would fear a lot more if I was playing Imperial knights.

Its easy to see how much more powerful soup is then mono guard....... mono guard don't win, don't place and don't even get taken. The only success mono guard has had this edition was pre earthshaker and conscript nerf

You've been repeating this over and over and it is obviously wrong. You can't just call tournament results fake news and be done with it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ice_can wrote:
Also guard did win not one but Two tournaments with an infantry heavy Catachan list in July.
They also gained the most top 3 places in events in the month of July.

Or so says Almost Pro

Top lists where

1 Astra Millicheese
2 Drukari
3 Knight's
4 Craftworld
5 Alpha Legion
6 Thousand sons
7 Yannari
8 Death Guard
9 Tyranids
10 Necrons

Not really seeing how Astra Copyright are a weak faction being punished by soup?

They aren't, AM is one of the strongest factions in the game. If it weren't for Eldar, and how easy it is to add custodes to guard (making it soup) they would be undisputed number 1.

So your argument is if
1. Eldar didn't exist
2. if you couldn't add in soup
Then guard would be number 1
yup you really proved to me with that statement that IG is broken
Did you also know that if you remove the rest of the armies from the game then necrons are broken?

And putting guardsmen at 5ppm would help with #2 and bring IG more in line as a mono faction. Eldar still need point adjustments but that is a different discussion.

Doing number 2 will just deacrease the percentage of IG taken in soup to only include the CP battery and completely screw over mono guard players



Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ice_can wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

Ice_can wrote:

Drukari and Alitoc being brokwn was used as an excuse that guard arn't OP. Just because something else is at 13 and your only at 11 while everyone else is in a 5-9 range doesn't make you not OP.

It does, however, mean that those 5-9 lads should probably be in the 10-13 range, rather than asking for anyone to be 5-9.

The IG have one of the best codexes out there in terms of crunch, competitiveness, fluff, and army composition options. The Grey Knights are the worst in all those categories. If I was a Space Marine player and looking at my options: would I rather my army be buffed to match Guard, with a variety of playstyles and interactions, or nerfed to match GK, with mono-build constructions and hardly any good options?

The worst codexes should be improved to match the best, not the other way around.

Except of the say 20 codex's
About 2 of them are at the 13 range 1 maybe 2 in the 11's
About 10 in the 5-10 range and 3/4 in the sub 5 range you don't give out buffs to 10 codex's to match the 1 or 2 you move thr outliers into the 5-10 range.

Your basically proposing buffing BA, DA, DG,Demons, Tau, Necrons, SM, GK, DW etc to Astra Militarum levels rather than admit Astra Militarum might be fairer with 5 point Infantry.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Asmodios wrote:

Ice_can wrote:
So a list with over 1k of point worth of guardsmen doesn't show guard a strong its the 3 blood angles captains carrying the list?

Not the 12 mortors 6 infantry squads 3 hellhounds.

Pure blood angles arn't exactlly rofl stomping everyone.
Its having those 100 bodies to hide behind that makes those charictors survive long enough to be able to jump out and smash.

Also by your definition of Pure the onlu pure factions in competitive settings right now are Tau, Necrons and Orks as they have no allies.
Only Crons made the top ten with trip teract vaults which is a pretty weak gimic list.

So far your possition has been Guard arn't the problem soup is, no-one has said soup isn't an issue but thats not what this thread was about.

Guardsmen are better than every other 4ppm unit and better than some more expensive units.

Drukari and Alitoc being brokwn was used as an excuse that guard arn't OP. Just because something else is at 13 and your only at 11 while everyone else is in a 5-9 range doesn't make you not OP.

Yeah so going by your argument because BA are good when souped with guard we should nuke BA to really F over all those mono faction players
Same for Knights
Same for custodes

Find me a tournament placing list with over 50% of it's points in Blood angles and I'll look at it.

I'm saying having over 50%of your points in one faction says that faction is definataly not uncompetitive, especially in imperial soup lists.

2 over 50% BA armies placed during LVO