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 gbghg wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
No, AM need to see nerfs because:

1. It is an overpowered top-tier army by itself.
2. It creates a lot of imbalance due to the Imperium keyword and command point generation, as well as cheap chaff, and all the reasons in #1.

When the two of you cite things and aren't even remotely right or providing context, it demolishes your arguments.

Additionally, I'm still waiting to see full "overpowered top-tier" army lists where there are 0 allies present at all.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

kurhanik wrote:

Meh, 5 point Guardsmen won't kill the codex. A lot of the lowest cost units in the game need a looking over on their points, not just Guard, but doing this will A) give Conscripts a reason to exist again and B) give a mild nerf to Guard armies and CP batteries without completely invalidating them.

Conscripts don't "need a reason to exist again". They're the reason we're in this stupid mess in the first place.

You want a fix to CP batteries? Too bad. People whined they didn't want formations anymore. That's how you get additional CPs in AoS. Battalions give you a one-time boost, in addition to the 1 CP you generate per turn or from a Relic.

I'd post you an IG army that could easily win tournaments but a bunch of crap arguments would be presented.

3 command russ/ 3 manticores/ 3 basalisk and a ton of infantry and maybe scout sentinels. That army could win any tournament. It doesn't even need command points really ether. Probably works best with catachans and straken.

If that army could win any tournament without even using command points then why isn't it?

There have been a lot of examples of pure guard winning tournaments with a list much like I described. Warzone Atlanta was won by an IG batallion and spearhead. The game has changed a bunch since then and it seems IG players would rather soup now than take full IG. Mainly due to the fact that with IG command point gen they can supercharge a lot of imperium units.

Another example is nids with flying hives. With those units nerfed people started spamming carnifexes and or hive gaurd instead - and winning some big tournaments too. Just because there is a better option that is OP doesn't make the next option obsolete if it is also OP. It really is very simple. IG/Nids/Eldar can win in a lot of ways. Some are soup - some are not. Soup is obviously good if you can combine the best of 2 armies you can probably have an overall better force more likely to win a tournament. The things that IG brings to soup are usually also OP and even more OP when taken with guard.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 gbghg wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
No, AM need to see nerfs because:

1. It is an overpowered top-tier army by itself.
2. It creates a lot of imbalance due to the Imperium keyword and command point generation, as well as cheap chaff, and all the reasons in #1.

When the two of you cite things and aren't even remotely right or providing context, it demolishes your arguments.

Additionally, I'm still waiting to see full "overpowered top-tier" army lists where there are 0 allies present at all.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

kurhanik wrote:

Meh, 5 point Guardsmen won't kill the codex. A lot of the lowest cost units in the game need a looking over on their points, not just Guard, but doing this will A) give Conscripts a reason to exist again and B) give a mild nerf to Guard armies and CP batteries without completely invalidating them.

Conscripts don't "need a reason to exist again". They're the reason we're in this stupid mess in the first place.

You want a fix to CP batteries? Too bad. People whined they didn't want formations anymore. That's how you get additional CPs in AoS. Battalions give you a one-time boost, in addition to the 1 CP you generate per turn or from a Relic.

I'd post you an IG army that could easily win tournaments but a bunch of crap arguments would be presented.

3 command russ/ 3 manticores/ 3 basalisk and a ton of infantry and maybe scout sentinels. That army could win any tournament. It doesn't even need command points really ether. Probably works best with catachans and straken.

If that army could win any tournament without even using command points then why isn't it?

There have been a lot of examples of pure guard winning tournaments with a list much like I described. Warzone Atlanta was won by an IG batallion and spearhead. The game has changed a bunch since then and it seems IG players would rather soup now than take full IG. Mainly due to the fact that with IG command point gen they can supercharge a lot of imperium units.

Another example is nids with flying hives. With those units nerfed people started spamming carnifexes and or hive gaurd instead - and winning some big tournaments too. Just because there is a better option that is OP doesn't make the next option obsolete if it is also OP. It really is very simple. IG/Nids/Eldar can win in a lot of ways. Some are soup - some are not. Soup is obviously good if you can combine the best of 2 armies you can probably have an overall better force more likely to win a tournament. The things that IG brings to soup are usually also OP and even more OP when taken with guard.

Except IG cant win non-soup that's why you had to go all the way back to warzone Atlanta.... which correct me if I'm wrong was when 8th first dropped.... its every November

Asmodios wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I'm talking in general, not BAO specifically. I've personally witnessed many tables that IG could steamrolled with an extra hour. So don't lecture me.

Yup your personal experience counters some actual statistical analysis of a major GT thanks for your input


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

I'd post you an IG army that could easily win tournaments but a bunch of crap arguments would be presented.

So that you reply to, but my deconstructing your whines about Guard stratagems you ignore? Interesting.

3 command russ/ 3 manticores/ 3 basalisk and a ton of infantry and maybe scout sentinels. That army could win any tournament. It doesn't even need command points really ether. Probably works best with catachans and straken.

Has anyone actually seen any nonsense list like this out there?

No all these "doomsday" all guard lists that are brought up weekly in some "nuke guard" thread don't actually exist. It's just as ridiculous as him stating he could make an all IG list that would "win any tournament" yet nobody in the entire ITC has figured this out yet.

They did think about it - they figured they have better chances with IG plus custodes bikers because they aren't hard countered by eldar. They probably do stand a better chance. More or less you are comparing apple to apples with these kinds of lists. At tournaments you can expect to see a lot of eldar - because they are also OP. Eldar matches up really well against guard - in fact they match up well with everyone because of -1 to hit stacking.

Thought experiment. If each player before the game started could remove 1 army triat from the opponents arsenal. Do you really think it would affect guard in a bad way? All their traits are good. Eldar go down in power significantly without -1 to hit trait. It's easy to identify the problem here.

-1 to hit traits are broken and need to be removed in favor of something less powerfull.

Lots of units - including IG units need points adjustments.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Asmodios wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 gbghg wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
No, AM need to see nerfs because:

1. It is an overpowered top-tier army by itself.
2. It creates a lot of imbalance due to the Imperium keyword and command point generation, as well as cheap chaff, and all the reasons in #1.

When the two of you cite things and aren't even remotely right or providing context, it demolishes your arguments.

Additionally, I'm still waiting to see full "overpowered top-tier" army lists where there are 0 allies present at all.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

kurhanik wrote:

Meh, 5 point Guardsmen won't kill the codex. A lot of the lowest cost units in the game need a looking over on their points, not just Guard, but doing this will A) give Conscripts a reason to exist again and B) give a mild nerf to Guard armies and CP batteries without completely invalidating them.

Conscripts don't "need a reason to exist again". They're the reason we're in this stupid mess in the first place.

You want a fix to CP batteries? Too bad. People whined they didn't want formations anymore. That's how you get additional CPs in AoS. Battalions give you a one-time boost, in addition to the 1 CP you generate per turn or from a Relic.

I'd post you an IG army that could easily win tournaments but a bunch of crap arguments would be presented.

3 command russ/ 3 manticores/ 3 basalisk and a ton of infantry and maybe scout sentinels. That army could win any tournament. It doesn't even need command points really ether. Probably works best with catachans and straken.

If that army could win any tournament without even using command points then why isn't it?

There have been a lot of examples of pure guard winning tournaments with a list much like I described. Warzone Atlanta was won by an IG batallion and spearhead. The game has changed a bunch since then and it seems IG players would rather soup now than take full IG. Mainly due to the fact that with IG command point gen they can supercharge a lot of imperium units.

Another example is nids with flying hives. With those units nerfed people started spamming carnifexes and or hive gaurd instead - and winning some big tournaments too. Just because there is a better option that is OP doesn't make the next option obsolete if it is also OP. It really is very simple. IG/Nids/Eldar can win in a lot of ways. Some are soup - some are not. Soup is obviously good if you can combine the best of 2 armies you can probably have an overall better force more likely to win a tournament. The things that IG brings to soup are usually also OP and even more OP when taken with guard.

Except IG cant win non-soup that's why you had to go all the way back to warzone Atlanta.... which correct me if I'm wrong was when 8th first dropped.... its every November

That is absolute nonsense.

 Xenomancers wrote:

There have been a lot of examples of pure guard winning tournaments with a list much like I described. Warzone Atlanta was won by an IG batallion and spearhead. The game has changed a bunch since then and it seems IG players would rather soup now than take full IG. Mainly due to the fact that with IG command point gen they can supercharge a lot of imperium units.

Warzone Atlanta, if I remember correctly, had an invalid list. The Spearhead was Cadian(Manticores x3 IIRC) with a Primaris Psyker and the Relic of Lost Cadia(which isn't valid as Primaris Psykers can't be given Regimental Keywords)...which I mean, kind of disproves your statements.

And the Battalion was a Vostroyan one with some very questionable loadout choices as well.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Asmodios wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I'm talking in general, not BAO specifically. I've personally witnessed many tables that IG could steamrolled with an extra hour. So don't lecture me.

Yup your personal experience counters some actual statistical analysis of a major GT thanks for your input


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

I'd post you an IG army that could easily win tournaments but a bunch of crap arguments would be presented.

So that you reply to, but my deconstructing your whines about Guard stratagems you ignore? Interesting.

3 command russ/ 3 manticores/ 3 basalisk and a ton of infantry and maybe scout sentinels. That army could win any tournament. It doesn't even need command points really ether. Probably works best with catachans and straken.

Has anyone actually seen any nonsense list like this out there?

No all these "doomsday" all guard lists that are brought up weekly in some "nuke guard" thread don't actually exist. It's just as ridiculous as him stating he could make an all IG list that would "win any tournament" yet nobody in the entire ITC has figured this out yet.

They did think about it - they figured they have better chances with IG plus custodes bikers because they aren't hard countered by eldar. They probably do stand a better chance. More or less you are comparing apple to apples with these kinds of lists. At tournaments you can expect to see a lot of eldar - because they are also OP. Eldar matches up really well against guard - in fact they match up well with everyone because of -1 to hit stacking.

Thought experiment. If each player before the game started could remove 1 army triat from the opponents arsenal. Do you really think it would affect guard in a bad way? All their traits are good. Eldar go down in power significantly without -1 to hit trait. It's easy to identify the problem here.

-1 to hit traits are broken and need to be removed in favor of something less powerfull.

Lots of units - including IG units need points adjustments.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Asmodios wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 gbghg wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
No, AM need to see nerfs because:

1. It is an overpowered top-tier army by itself.
2. It creates a lot of imbalance due to the Imperium keyword and command point generation, as well as cheap chaff, and all the reasons in #1.

When the two of you cite things and aren't even remotely right or providing context, it demolishes your arguments.

Additionally, I'm still waiting to see full "overpowered top-tier" army lists where there are 0 allies present at all.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

kurhanik wrote:

Meh, 5 point Guardsmen won't kill the codex. A lot of the lowest cost units in the game need a looking over on their points, not just Guard, but doing this will A) give Conscripts a reason to exist again and B) give a mild nerf to Guard armies and CP batteries without completely invalidating them.

Conscripts don't "need a reason to exist again". They're the reason we're in this stupid mess in the first place.

You want a fix to CP batteries? Too bad. People whined they didn't want formations anymore. That's how you get additional CPs in AoS. Battalions give you a one-time boost, in addition to the 1 CP you generate per turn or from a Relic.

I'd post you an IG army that could easily win tournaments but a bunch of crap arguments would be presented.

3 command russ/ 3 manticores/ 3 basalisk and a ton of infantry and maybe scout sentinels. That army could win any tournament. It doesn't even need command points really ether. Probably works best with catachans and straken.

If that army could win any tournament without even using command points then why isn't it?

There have been a lot of examples of pure guard winning tournaments with a list much like I described. Warzone Atlanta was won by an IG batallion and spearhead. The game has changed a bunch since then and it seems IG players would rather soup now than take full IG. Mainly due to the fact that with IG command point gen they can supercharge a lot of imperium units.

Another example is nids with flying hives. With those units nerfed people started spamming carnifexes and or hive gaurd instead - and winning some big tournaments too. Just because there is a better option that is OP doesn't make the next option obsolete if it is also OP. It really is very simple. IG/Nids/Eldar can win in a lot of ways. Some are soup - some are not. Soup is obviously good if you can combine the best of 2 armies you can probably have an overall better force more likely to win a tournament. The things that IG brings to soup are usually also OP and even more OP when taken with guard.

Except IG cant win non-soup that's why you had to go all the way back to warzone Atlanta.... which correct me if I'm wrong was when 8th first dropped.... its every November

That is absolute nonsense.

So let me get this straight....... Pure IG is broken and better than soup IG, but cant be Eldar so people dont take it..... But Knights, IG + Knights, and Nurgle + Knights are all not broken and able to beat eldar

And why was it nonsense? Warzone Atlanta was not only almost year ago but wasn't the IG list that won illegal as well now that i think of it?

Either way hopefully some of the top tournament players can read this thread because they are all missing out on the unstoppable 3 russ 3 manticore list

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

There have been a lot of examples of pure guard winning tournaments with a list much like I described. Warzone Atlanta was won by an IG batallion and spearhead. The game has changed a bunch since then and it seems IG players would rather soup now than take full IG. Mainly due to the fact that with IG command point gen they can supercharge a lot of imperium units.

Warzone Atlanta, if I remember correctly, had an invalid list. The Spearhead was Cadian(Manticores x3 IIRC) with a Primaris Psyker and the Relic of Lost Cadia(which isn't valid as Primaris Psykers can't be given Regimental Keywords)...which I mean, kind of disproves your statements.

And the Battalion was a Vostroyan one with some very questionable loadout choices as well.

The invalidity was a clear oversight that wouldn't have affected the list in the slightest. He could have taken the psyker in the voyst detachment and taken cheapo HQ with the relic in the cadian detachment. He armed a unit of vets with grenade launchers for crying out loud and took a bunch of FW Calvary too. He could have made the list even better.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

There have been a lot of examples of pure guard winning tournaments with a list much like I described. Warzone Atlanta was won by an IG batallion and spearhead. The game has changed a bunch since then and it seems IG players would rather soup now than take full IG. Mainly due to the fact that with IG command point gen they can supercharge a lot of imperium units.

Warzone Atlanta, if I remember correctly, had an invalid list. The Spearhead was Cadian(Manticores x3 IIRC) with a Primaris Psyker and the Relic of Lost Cadia(which isn't valid as Primaris Psykers can't be given Regimental Keywords)...which I mean, kind of disproves your statements.

And the Battalion was a Vostroyan one with some very questionable loadout choices as well.

The invalidity was a clear oversight that wouldn't have affected the list in the slightest. He could have taken the psyker in the voyst detachment and taken cheapo HQ with the relic in the cadian detachment. He armed a unit of vets with grenade launchers for crying out loud and took a bunch of FW Calvary too. He could have made the list even better.

Yeah for crying out loud it was an only slightly illegal list almost a year ago when almost no armies had their codexes yet..... golly how are you not seeing that pure guard is broken from this example!

Asmodios wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

There have been a lot of examples of pure guard winning tournaments with a list much like I described. Warzone Atlanta was won by an IG batallion and spearhead. The game has changed a bunch since then and it seems IG players would rather soup now than take full IG. Mainly due to the fact that with IG command point gen they can supercharge a lot of imperium units.

Warzone Atlanta, if I remember correctly, had an invalid list. The Spearhead was Cadian(Manticores x3 IIRC) with a Primaris Psyker and the Relic of Lost Cadia(which isn't valid as Primaris Psykers can't be given Regimental Keywords)...which I mean, kind of disproves your statements.

And the Battalion was a Vostroyan one with some very questionable loadout choices as well.

The invalidity was a clear oversight that wouldn't have affected the list in the slightest. He could have taken the psyker in the voyst detachment and taken cheapo HQ with the relic in the cadian detachment. He armed a unit of vets with grenade launchers for crying out loud and took a bunch of FW Calvary too. He could have made the list even better.

Yeah for crying out loud it was an only slightly illegal list almost a year ago when almost no armies had their codexes yet..... golly how are you not seeing that pure guard is broken from this example!

If the list couldn't be made legal - simply by switching the detachment 2 units were in - you would have a point. This tournament was in the age of unnerfed reapers...turn 1 deep strike legal anywhere...-1 to hit daemon primarch in changling aura. It was arguably harder for a mono guard list to win in this era. The game constantly is changing. Lets be clear here though - nothing really changed about how this guard army would play today - except the fact that they have custodes and knights to soup into their brigades and it's harder for them to get charged turn 1.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

There have been a lot of examples of pure guard winning tournaments with a list much like I described. Warzone Atlanta was won by an IG batallion and spearhead. The game has changed a bunch since then and it seems IG players would rather soup now than take full IG. Mainly due to the fact that with IG command point gen they can supercharge a lot of imperium units.

Warzone Atlanta, if I remember correctly, had an invalid list. The Spearhead was Cadian(Manticores x3 IIRC) with a Primaris Psyker and the Relic of Lost Cadia(which isn't valid as Primaris Psykers can't be given Regimental Keywords)...which I mean, kind of disproves your statements.

And the Battalion was a Vostroyan one with some very questionable loadout choices as well.

The invalidity was a clear oversight that wouldn't have affected the list in the slightest. He could have taken the psyker in the voyst detachment and taken cheapo HQ with the relic in the cadian detachment.

Except he didn't. I pointed out at the time that he could have just taken a Master of Ordnance and gotten a free artillery strike too, while still having points to bring a cheapo Psyker.

The point of bringing the Primaris was for him to cast "Nightshroud"(-1 to be hit) more reliably than the cheaper Psykers could.

He armed a unit of vets with grenade launchers for crying out loud

He had almost every squad with Lascannons and Grenade Launchers. There were some claims that he was giving the Vostroyan benefit(bonus range) to his Grenade Launchers--which isn't how it works. It's +6" to range for any Heavy or Rapid Fire weapons with 24" range or higher to start with.

and took a bunch of FW Calvary too. He could have made the list even better.

Death Riders are pretty fricking great, so I don't know what he could have done there to "make the list even better". They get a 5+ FNP against attacks with S4 or less. They're also sitting on a 4+ save and suffer no penalty to their move when charging into terrain features.

That's in addition to "Cult of Sacrifice"(ignore models slain in the Shooting phase when taking morale tests) and the Orders that DKoK get. "Duty Unto Death" makes it so that those Death Riders get to fight in the Fight phase if they're killed.

Just because soup is better than IG doesn't mean that IG isn't good on it's own.

Its the same as the guy arguing that DE aren't OP because Eldar soup is better...

The top couple dexes are Knights, IG, CWE, DE. They all need to come down in power. The mid tier dexes need to have their power level smoothed out (nids, custodes [minus guard CP battery], tau, chaos, Tsons, ?DG?) and the bottom tier ones need to be raised to the mid tier level (power armor, AM, crons).

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

There have been a lot of examples of pure guard winning tournaments with a list much like I described. Warzone Atlanta was won by an IG batallion and spearhead. The game has changed a bunch since then and it seems IG players would rather soup now than take full IG. Mainly due to the fact that with IG command point gen they can supercharge a lot of imperium units.

Warzone Atlanta, if I remember correctly, had an invalid list. The Spearhead was Cadian(Manticores x3 IIRC) with a Primaris Psyker and the Relic of Lost Cadia(which isn't valid as Primaris Psykers can't be given Regimental Keywords)...which I mean, kind of disproves your statements.

And the Battalion was a Vostroyan one with some very questionable loadout choices as well.

The invalidity was a clear oversight that wouldn't have affected the list in the slightest. He could have taken the psyker in the voyst detachment and taken cheapo HQ with the relic in the cadian detachment.

Except he didn't. I pointed out at the time that he could have just taken a Master of Ordnance and gotten a free artillery strike too, while still having points to bring a cheapo Psyker.

The point of bringing the Primaris was for him to cast "Nightshroud"(-1 to be hit) more reliably than the cheaper Psykers could.

He armed a unit of vets with grenade launchers for crying out loud

He had almost every squad with Lascannons and Grenade Launchers. The Vostroyan perk doesn't affect Assault weapons.

and took a bunch of FW Calvary too. He could have made the list even better.

Death Riders are pretty fricking great, so I don't know what he could have done there to "make the list even better". They get a 5+ FNP against attacks with S4 or less. They're also sitting on a 4+ save and suffer no penalty to their move when charging into terrain features.

That's in addition to "Cult of Sacrifice"(ignore models slain in the Shooting phase when taking morale tests) and the Orders that DKoK get. "Duty Unto Death" makes it so that those Death Riders get to fight in the Fight phase if they're killed.

They aren't an optimal unit. Nifty - maybe - but for their points he could have taken something better. Plus today with dessie spam those horse would just get merced.

Point remains - calling the list "invalid" is very intelectually dishonest. You pointed out a simple fix that would have just made the list better.

Was the list valid? No?

Then it's invalid. It also wasn't the first time that particular issue had cropped up. Tournament players should be held to a higher standard, and I'm always going to assume that it's cheating at this point when someone fails that miserably at writing up an army list.

Also, if someone's devoting that much firepower to kill the Death Riders...they've done their jobs.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Asmodios wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

There have been a lot of examples of pure guard winning tournaments with a list much like I described. Warzone Atlanta was won by an IG batallion and spearhead. The game has changed a bunch since then and it seems IG players would rather soup now than take full IG. Mainly due to the fact that with IG command point gen they can supercharge a lot of imperium units.

Warzone Atlanta, if I remember correctly, had an invalid list. The Spearhead was Cadian(Manticores x3 IIRC) with a Primaris Psyker and the Relic of Lost Cadia(which isn't valid as Primaris Psykers can't be given Regimental Keywords)...which I mean, kind of disproves your statements.

And the Battalion was a Vostroyan one with some very questionable loadout choices as well.

The invalidity was a clear oversight that wouldn't have affected the list in the slightest. He could have taken the psyker in the voyst detachment and taken cheapo HQ with the relic in the cadian detachment. He armed a unit of vets with grenade launchers for crying out loud and took a bunch of FW Calvary too. He could have made the list even better.

Yeah for crying out loud it was an only slightly illegal list almost a year ago when almost no armies had their codexes yet..... golly how are you not seeing that pure guard is broken from this example!

If the list couldn't be made legal - simply by switching the detachment 2 units were in - you would have a point. This tournament was in the age of unnerfed reapers...turn 1 deep strike legal anywhere...-1 to hit daemon primarch in changling aura. It was arguably harder for a mono guard list to win in this era. The game constantly is changing. Lets be clear here though - nothing really changed about how this guard army would play today - except the fact that they have custodes and knights to soup into their brigades and it's harder for them to get charged turn 1.

So the meta was harder but people forgot an easy auto win list.... Yup this sounds reasonable

Asmodios wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Asmodios wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

There have been a lot of examples of pure guard winning tournaments with a list much like I described. Warzone Atlanta was won by an IG batallion and spearhead. The game has changed a bunch since then and it seems IG players would rather soup now than take full IG. Mainly due to the fact that with IG command point gen they can supercharge a lot of imperium units.

Warzone Atlanta, if I remember correctly, had an invalid list. The Spearhead was Cadian(Manticores x3 IIRC) with a Primaris Psyker and the Relic of Lost Cadia(which isn't valid as Primaris Psykers can't be given Regimental Keywords)...which I mean, kind of disproves your statements.

And the Battalion was a Vostroyan one with some very questionable loadout choices as well.

The invalidity was a clear oversight that wouldn't have affected the list in the slightest. He could have taken the psyker in the voyst detachment and taken cheapo HQ with the relic in the cadian detachment. He armed a unit of vets with grenade launchers for crying out loud and took a bunch of FW Calvary too. He could have made the list even better.

Yeah for crying out loud it was an only slightly illegal list almost a year ago when almost no armies had their codexes yet..... golly how are you not seeing that pure guard is broken from this example!

If the list couldn't be made legal - simply by switching the detachment 2 units were in - you would have a point. This tournament was in the age of unnerfed reapers...turn 1 deep strike legal anywhere...-1 to hit daemon primarch in changling aura. It was arguably harder for a mono guard list to win in this era. The game constantly is changing. Lets be clear here though - nothing really changed about how this guard army would play today - except the fact that they have custodes and knights to soup into their brigades and it's harder for them to get charged turn 1.

So the meta was harder but people forgot an easy auto win list.... Yup this sounds reasonable

They didn't - AM place high at every event. Plus no list is autowin - considering this is a dice game.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kanluwen wrote:
Was the list valid? No?

Then it's invalid. It also wasn't the first time that particular issue had cropped up. Tournament players should be held to a higher standard, and I'm always going to assume that it's cheating at this point when someone fails that miserably at writing up an army list.

Also, if someone's devoting that much firepower to kill the Death Riders...they've done their jobs.

Did the lists invalidity play any part in how it performed? No - this fix you thought of would actually make the list better. Were talking about a technicality. I am not arguing that he shouldn't be scolded for it. All lists SHOULD be legal. In this discussion though - calling it "invalid" does not play any part in how the list performed.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Asmodios wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Asmodios wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

There have been a lot of examples of pure guard winning tournaments with a list much like I described. Warzone Atlanta was won by an IG batallion and spearhead. The game has changed a bunch since then and it seems IG players would rather soup now than take full IG. Mainly due to the fact that with IG command point gen they can supercharge a lot of imperium units.

Warzone Atlanta, if I remember correctly, had an invalid list. The Spearhead was Cadian(Manticores x3 IIRC) with a Primaris Psyker and the Relic of Lost Cadia(which isn't valid as Primaris Psykers can't be given Regimental Keywords)...which I mean, kind of disproves your statements.

And the Battalion was a Vostroyan one with some very questionable loadout choices as well.

The invalidity was a clear oversight that wouldn't have affected the list in the slightest. He could have taken the psyker in the voyst detachment and taken cheapo HQ with the relic in the cadian detachment. He armed a unit of vets with grenade launchers for crying out loud and took a bunch of FW Calvary too. He could have made the list even better.

Yeah for crying out loud it was an only slightly illegal list almost a year ago when almost no armies had their codexes yet..... golly how are you not seeing that pure guard is broken from this example!

If the list couldn't be made legal - simply by switching the detachment 2 units were in - you would have a point. This tournament was in the age of unnerfed reapers...turn 1 deep strike legal anywhere...-1 to hit daemon primarch in changling aura. It was arguably harder for a mono guard list to win in this era. The game constantly is changing. Lets be clear here though - nothing really changed about how this guard army would play today - except the fact that they have custodes and knights to soup into their brigades and it's harder for them to get charged turn 1.

So the meta was harder but people forgot an easy auto win list.... Yup this sounds reasonable

They didn't - AM place high at every event. Plus no list is autowin - considering this is a dice game.


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 Kanluwen wrote:
Was the list valid? No?

Then it's invalid. It also wasn't the first time that particular issue had cropped up. Tournament players should be held to a higher standard, and I'm always going to assume that it's cheating at this point when someone fails that miserably at writing up an army list.

Also, if someone's devoting that much firepower to kill the Death Riders...they've done their jobs.

Did the lists invalidity play any part in how it performed? No - this fix you thought of would actually make the list better. Were talking about a technicality. I am not arguing that he shouldn't be scolded for it. All lists SHOULD be legal. In this discussion though - calling it "invalid" does not play any part in how the list performed.

You literally said "that would win any tournament"
Once again... no pure IG armies are not placing you had to go back to November to find an example and that list was illegal

I said I could make a list - the COULD win any tournament with mono guard. Not that it would be auto win. I wouldn't consider it a disadvantage at all. Manitcores/Russ/Basalisks/infantry/CC are all significantly undercosted.

A soup list probably has a better chance. It doesn't make the undercostings of other AM units less important.

I guess we could keep following the current line of GW logic. Not nerf eldar/ not nerf AM - and keep nerfing space marines.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kanluwen wrote:
Was the list valid? No?

Then it's invalid. It also wasn't the first time that particular issue had cropped up. Tournament players should be held to a higher standard, and I'm always going to assume that it's cheating at this point when someone fails that miserably at writing up an army list.

Also, if someone's devoting that much firepower to kill the Death Riders...they've done their jobs.

Did the lists invalidity play any part in how it performed? No - this fix you thought of would actually make the list better. Were talking about a technicality. I am not arguing that he shouldn't be scolded for it. All lists SHOULD be legal. In this discussion though - calling it "invalid" does not play any part in how the list performed.

Of course it played a part in how it performed. Primaris Psykers in Guard are taken because they are cheap HQs, meaning you can toss a Relic on them. Relic of Lost Cadia was being heavily abused to grant rerolls of 1 and all rerolls vs Chaos multiple times during a game.

Asmodios is literally in here arguing that Eldar, Chaos, and IG are all in an unplayably bad state, because if a codex isn't getting top tables without an ally then it must be because it sucks.

Let that sink in.




Do you think it's a coincidence that so many people are disagreeing with you right now? Just keep on fighting the good fight lil buddy.

Didn't Brandon Grant play pure IG at the BAO? He got knocked out of the running early on by a DE/Eldar list but his list still seemed pretty solid.

And it doesn't make sense to say that pure guard is bad because almost no one runs pure armies unless they have to, and IG plus the best parts of other factions is always going to be good.

Asmodios wrote:

You literally said "that would win any tournament"

No.... no, he literally did not. Here's what he said

"That army could win any tournament"

Bolded the key word.

The nuances of the English language may be difficult to grasp, but this isn't a tricky one. That single word makes a big difference between these two statements. Please drop the strawman arguments.


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jcd386 wrote:
Didn't Brandon Grant play pure IG at the BAO? He got knocked out of the running early on by a DE/Eldar list but his list still seemed pretty solid.

And it doesn't make sense to say that pure guard is bad because almost no one runs pure armies unless they have to, and IG plus the best parts of other factions is always going to be good.

Lol, I hadn't seen that, just checked. Yes. You are absolutely right. Brandon Grant placed #20 out of the #135 players to enter, with a 4/2 record, with pure a Guard list.

I believe making IG the second highest placing solo faction at the tournament after the Tau guy at #19.




Asmodios right now:

You know, I could, in theory, win every single tournament ever with a list of literally nothing except Grots. Just 1,000 Grots.

Is it likely to? No, and I'd be stupid to say that it could, because the odds are so astronomically against it as to be basically impossible. But it could happen!

The way he said it, he made it clear that it was not a "Could, in theory, do it," he was talking about "Could, with a good chance, do it," which is not born out by facts.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kanluwen wrote:
Was the list valid? No?

Then it's invalid. It also wasn't the first time that particular issue had cropped up. Tournament players should be held to a higher standard, and I'm always going to assume that it's cheating at this point when someone fails that miserably at writing up an army list.

Also, if someone's devoting that much firepower to kill the Death Riders...they've done their jobs.

Did the lists invalidity play any part in how it performed? No - this fix you thought of would actually make the list better. Were talking about a technicality. I am not arguing that he shouldn't be scolded for it. All lists SHOULD be legal. In this discussion though - calling it "invalid" does not play any part in how the list performed.

Of course it played a part in how it performed. Primaris Psykers in Guard are taken because they are cheap HQs, meaning you can toss a Relic on them. Relic of Lost Cadia was being heavily abused to grant rerolls of 1 and all rerolls vs Chaos multiple times during a game.

yes but literally any character with regiment keyword can take it. It's not like he couldn't have just tossed another eligble HQ in it's place that costs less points. It's not a big deal at all...like - he cast -1 to hit on 1 out of 4 manticores...you shoot the one that doesn't have it up. It's almost certain that he was using it to smite 90% of the time. Which he could have done as vostroyan NP. Or maybe...drop a few LC to auto cannons and take a master of ordinance (I can think of a lot of other things he could have done without even altering his entries. just saying it was a minor mistake that was unintentional.


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 JNAProductions wrote:
You know, I could, in theory, win every single tournament ever with a list of literally nothing except Grots. Just 1,000 Grots.

Is it likely to? No, and I'd be stupid to say that it could, because the odds are so astronomically against it as to be basically impossible. But it could happen!

The way he said it, he made it clear that it was not a "Could, in theory, do it," he was talking about "Could, with a good chance, do it," which is not born out by facts.

It is born out of facts - it's been done before against stronger opposition. (before beta rules took effect) and a lot of nerfs to powerful units like FHT/REAPERS/Changeling. I know for a fact - if I was playing imperial knights - the last thing I want to see on the other side of the table is 3 manitcores/ 3 basalisks / and 3 command russ. I could give a gak less about 3 biker captains that want to charge my knight. Please...Charge might knight. This is fun.


Seriously people. Mono guard is competitive. Much like pure CWE is competitive. It's just better by a little if you include DE cheese detachment. So is mono DE - it's just a little bit better when you add doom. Please people. Stop being stupid. These armies all have a lot of way you can play them that are competitive.

 JNAProductions wrote:
You know, I could, in theory, win every single tournament ever with a list of literally nothing except Grots. Just 1,000 Grots.

Is it likely to? No, and I'd be stupid to say that it could, because the odds are so astronomically against it as to be basically impossible. But it could happen!

The way he said it, he made it clear that it was not a "Could, in theory, do it," he was talking about "Could, with a good chance, do it," which is not born out by facts.

Yes - that's exactly the implication there.

Which is a massive difference to the response post implying he claims it autowins every tournament it enters.

You knew the first bit so you obviously knew the second too, don't play dumb.

 SHUPPET wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
You know, I could, in theory, win every single tournament ever with a list of literally nothing except Grots. Just 1,000 Grots.

Is it likely to? No, and I'd be stupid to say that it could, because the odds are so astronomically against it as to be basically impossible. But it could happen!

The way he said it, he made it clear that it was not a "Could, in theory, do it," he was talking about "Could, with a good chance, do it," which is not born out by facts.

Yes - that's exactly the implication there.

Which is a massive difference to the response post implying he claims it autowins every tournament it enters.

You knew the first bit so you obviously knew the second too, don't play dumb.

Except, if it has such good odds... Why aren't the top players playing it? Unless you're going to say that every single tourney player is playing down or too stupid to know that that list is the best...

 JNAProductions wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
You know, I could, in theory, win every single tournament ever with a list of literally nothing except Grots. Just 1,000 Grots.

Is it likely to? No, and I'd be stupid to say that it could, because the odds are so astronomically against it as to be basically impossible. But it could happen!

The way he said it, he made it clear that it was not a "Could, in theory, do it," he was talking about "Could, with a good chance, do it," which is not born out by facts.

Yes - that's exactly the implication there.

Which is a massive difference to the response post implying he claims it autowins every tournament it enters.

You knew the first bit so you obviously knew the second too, don't play dumb.

Except, if it has such good odds... Why aren't the top players playing it? Unless you're going to say that every single tourney player is playing down or too stupid to know that that list is the best...

I've never said that Mono guard is the best. Mostly because it has a hard counter. Eldar of all kinds with -1 to hit stacking. If you removed eldar from the equation - Mono guard can spank around any other army with relative ease. There is no other army in the game like that.

In terms of balance we have 2 large issues. Eldar are OP with -1 to hit stacking. AM are OP vs everything else. They are the kings of this game.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
You know, I could, in theory, win every single tournament ever with a list of literally nothing except Grots. Just 1,000 Grots.

Is it likely to? No, and I'd be stupid to say that it could, because the odds are so astronomically against it as to be basically impossible. But it could happen!

The way he said it, he made it clear that it was not a "Could, in theory, do it," he was talking about "Could, with a good chance, do it," which is not born out by facts.

Yes - that's exactly the implication there.

Which is a massive difference to the response post implying he claims it autowins every tournament it enters.

You knew the first bit so you obviously knew the second too, don't play dumb.

Except, if it has such good odds... Why aren't the top players playing it? Unless you're going to say that every single tourney player is playing down or too stupid to know that that list is the best...

I've never said that Mono guard is the best. Mostly because it has a hard counter. Eldar of all kinds with -1 to hit stacking. If you removed eldar from the equation - Mono guard can spank around any other army with relative ease. There is no other army in the game like that.

In terms of balance we have 2 large issues. Eldar are OP with -1 to hit stacking. AM are OP vs everything else. They are the kings of this game.

Yeah, Chaos Soup never places in tournaments! And who plays Knights at tournaments, or brings in Blood Angels or Custodes? No one that's GOOD!

 Xenomancers wrote:
I said I could make a list - the COULD win any tournament with mono guard. Not that it would be auto win. I wouldn't consider it a disadvantage at all. Manitcores/Russ/Basalisks/infantry/CC are all significantly undercosted.

A soup list probably has a better chance. It doesn't make the undercostings of other AM units less important.

I guess we could keep following the current line of GW logic. Not nerf eldar/ not nerf AM - and keep nerfing space marines.

Ahhhh ok it “could” win... all those trash top ITC players just choose to not take it because it has a terrible chance to win.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 SHUPPET wrote:

Asmodios wrote:

You literally said "that would win any tournament"

No.... no, he literally did not. Here's what he said

"That army could win any tournament"

Bolded the key word.

The nuances of the English language may be difficult to grasp, but this isn't a tricky one. That single word makes a big difference between these two statements. Please drop the strawman arguments.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

jcd386 wrote:
Didn't Brandon Grant play pure IG at the BAO? He got knocked out of the running early on by a DE/Eldar list but his list still seemed pretty solid.

And it doesn't make sense to say that pure guard is bad because almost no one runs pure armies unless they have to, and IG plus the best parts of other factions is always going to be good.

Lol, I hadn't seen that, just checked. Yes. You are absolutely right. Brandon Grant placed #20 out of the #135 players to enter, with a 4/2 record, with pure a Guard list.

I believe making IG the second highest placing solo faction at the tournament after the Tau guy at #19.




Asmodios right now:

No I’m dying laughing right now that finishing 20th is amazing and broken.... under that assumption we need to nuke Tau into the ground with that insane #19 finish.... how do those blue Zeno scum get away with it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 JNAProductions wrote:
You know, I could, in theory, win every single tournament ever with a list of literally nothing except Grots. Just 1,000 Grots.

Is it likely to? No, and I'd be stupid to say that it could, because the odds are so astronomically against it as to be basically impossible. But it could happen!

The way he said it, he made it clear that it was not a "Could, in theory, do it," he was talking about "Could, with a good chance, do it," which is not born out by facts.

^
Exactly this the context of his comment is important and I’m sure many of the people read it that way

Asmodios wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
I said I could make a list - the COULD win any tournament with mono guard. Not that it would be auto win. I wouldn't consider it a disadvantage at all. Manitcores/Russ/Basalisks/infantry/CC are all significantly undercosted.

A soup list probably has a better chance. It doesn't make the undercostings of other AM units less important.

I guess we could keep following the current line of GW logic. Not nerf eldar/ not nerf AM - and keep nerfing space marines.

Ahhhh ok it “could” win... all those trash top ITC players just choose to not take it because it has a terrible chance to win.

You are just ignoring my arguments and misstating everything I am saying. Yeah...soup has a better chance to win. For obvious reasons. It doesn't make AM any less busted.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
No one read it that way. It was very clear what I was saying.

I could make an AM army that could win any tournament. As in it has a good chance.

Much like I could make a mono DE army that could too.

Id give the edge to my DE list because DE is just a little more broken than guard.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Asmodios wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
I said I could make a list - the COULD win any tournament with mono guard. Not that it would be auto win. I wouldn't consider it a disadvantage at all. Manitcores/Russ/Basalisks/infantry/CC are all significantly undercosted.

A soup list probably has a better chance. It doesn't make the undercostings of other AM units less important.

I guess we could keep following the current line of GW logic. Not nerf eldar/ not nerf AM - and keep nerfing space marines.

Ahhhh ok it “could” win... all those trash top ITC players just choose to not take it because it has a terrible chance to win.

You are just ignoring my arguments and misstating everything I am saying. Yeah...soup has a better chance to win. For obvious reasons. It doesn't make AM any less busted.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
No one read it that way. It was very clear what I was saying.

I could make an AM army that could win any tournament. As in it has a good chance.

Much like I could make a mono DE army that could too.

Id give the edge to my DE list because DE is just a little more broken than guard.

I could make a SM black templars army hat “could win” every tournament.... I could also win the lottery tomorrow

Love the fact that when a top player takes AM pure they are rewarded with a 20th placed finish but the guy taking blightlord terminators and renigade knights finishes first. You just most be so much better then all these other people. You should go out there and prove me wrong. Please post pics of all your first place finishes I’d love to see them

That is crazy talk. A black templars army will be tabled in 2 -3 turns.