Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.
JNAProductions wrote: So Cult Ambush and +1 Ld are worth nothing, but +1 WS is worth a point?
I don't think I could've made it clearer when I joined this thread and said "other units might be too cheap so we need to compare to a swathe of units".
The question isn't what Cult Ambush and +1LD are worth. It's 'what are Guardsmen worth?'
Well you cant compare if you dont know the worth of the units you are comparing them to.
You must always take into consideration how that model interacts with it's faction, or you will never get usefull results.
I mean, if we look at them without army traits, stratagems and powers, then i guess that Dark Reapers and shining spears coild really use a buff, they are so UP on paper. Lol, silly GW how could they ever think that a 34 pt model with a single wound (at T3 nonetheless!!) could be ever worth taking, when tactical marines already show us that at 13 points you already need more than one wound?
Please GW buff Dark Reapers.
If you want to prove pure math is bad, please actually do the math to show us why it is bad. Take Reapers and compare their durability and shootiness to other equivalent units (devastators, heavy weapons teams etc...), their preferred target and some standard infantry, and please give us the totals in points for comparisons.
If you don't then you haven't actually done any math, and instead just looked at some stats.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
JNAProductions wrote: So Cult Ambush and +1 Ld are worth nothing, but +1 WS is worth a point?
I would say that it can depend. At the points we're talking, neither of those are worth a full point. Going from 4 pts to 5 pts for +1 save is equivalent to upping the cost of a Russ by 40 pts for the same thing.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/08/08 06:42:23
JNAProductions wrote: So Cult Ambush and +1 Ld are worth nothing, but +1 WS is worth a point?
I don't think I could've made it clearer when I joined this thread and said "other units might be too cheap so we need to compare to a swathe of units".
The question isn't what Cult Ambush and +1LD are worth. It's 'what are Guardsmen worth?'
Well you cant compare if you dont know the worth of the units you are comparing them to.
This is why we compare to a RANGE of units instead of just picking out one.
Either way to answer your question - no, I don't think Cult Ambush and +1LD is worth a point. It's worth is probably about equal to the value of having access to orders. We're also comparing codex to index units, the latter of which are likely subject to change.
What the game doesn't have though, are Tactics; and the game sure does need more of them.
I personally think this lack of tactics on the tabletop is because of how homogenous every unit is aside from Strategems. Basically, for Tactical decisions Marines are the same as Imperial Guard aside from 'just shoot them with high shots vs shoot them with high ap'.
I somewhat disagree with your conclusion on homogenous units. The closer 2 units are to being the same, the more your decisions matter.
As an example:
I have Ork slugga boyz and my opponent has Fire Warriors. What are my options to engage? Do I sit back and shoot? No. I have to rush in and start chopping. My opponent on the other hand will only really have the option to run away.
This really illustrates my distaste for "hard counters". The more something counters another something, the less my decisions actually matter.
Compare this with 2 guard gunlines. If I go second and just sit back, I will lose. It's at this point that I will start maneuvering to increase my chances of winning while decreasing my opponent's chances. That said, more terrain interaction is a must for this to actually play out.
If you are familiar with "Wargame: Red Dragon", you would see that each faction has different flavors of essentially the same units. However, the interaction with LOS, cover, hiding etc... give the game huge tactical depth, and the minute differences between units can be exploited by clever deployment to gain an advantage over otherwise similar units.
does it still have a community? I always wanted to get into that game
P.S.A. I won't read your posts if you break it into a million separate quotes and make an eyesore of it.
Xenomancers wrote: Most people don't even take gear on infantry squads. There is no reason to. You get to shoot twice with a lasgun for 4 points. It is super efficient. God forbid you have t3 and get shot by these things.
Mortars for sure are too cheap. It's a 10 point weapon at minimum.
If this is the level of misrepresentation you bring to the table, you should be surprised anyone is agreeing with you at all.
That "shooting twice" with a lasgun ability you've frequently mis-labelled (it does not let the squad shoot twice), will cost the Guard player 70 points for 9 "double-shooting" lasguns.
It's not 4pts/model for that ability. If you're going to decry the cost, include the entire cost that makes the mechanic you're complaining so loudly about actually possible.
Xenomancers wrote: Most people don't even take gear on infantry squads. There is no reason to. You get to shoot twice with a lasgun for 4 points. It is super efficient. God forbid you have t3 and get shot by these things.
Mortars for sure are too cheap. It's a 10 point weapon at minimum.
If this is the level of misrepresentation you bring to the table, you should be surprised anyone is agreeing with you at all.
That "shooting twice" with a lasgun ability you've frequently mis-labelled (it does not let the squad shoot twice), will cost the Guard player 70 points for 9 "double-shooting" lasguns.
It's not 4pts/model for that ability. If you're going to decry the cost, include the entire cost that makes the mechanic you're complaining so loudly about actually possible.
What on earth are you talking about? Nobody wastes points upgrading Guardsmen, and by shooting twice, he means every model having 2 shots in rapid fire range.
P.S.A. I won't read your posts if you break it into a million separate quotes and make an eyesore of it.
SHUPPET wrote: What on earth are you talking about? Nobody wastes points upgrading Guardsmen, and by shooting twice, he means every model having 2 shots in rapid fire range.
The point is that you don't get FRFSRF at 4ppm, you have to pay for an officer to give that order (and do very little else). That increases the point cost of the guardsmen to more than 4ppm. So you can either talk about 4ppm guardsmen with single lasgun shots or more expensive guardsmen with double the shots. Anything else is dishonest.
And yes, you are taking an officer to upgrade to FRFSRF. For +2ppm you double a 4ppm unit's firepower. The only reason to even acknowledge that 4ppm guardsmen without FRFSRF exist is in the context of CP batteries taken at the absolute minimum cost, in which case why do you care about the lasgun shots?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
bibotot wrote: Overwatch at 5+ if not moving in previous turn.
BS 3+ if not moving in this turn.
Let's not encourage gunlines even more.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/08/08 08:06:35
There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices.
SHUPPET wrote: What on earth are you talking about? Nobody wastes points upgrading Guardsmen, and by shooting twice, he means every model having 2 shots in rapid fire range.
The point is that you don't get FRFSRF at 4ppm, you have to pay for an officer to give that order (and do very little else). That increases the point cost of the guardsmen to more than 4ppm. So you can either talk about 4ppm guardsmen with single lasgun shots or more expensive guardsmen with double the shots. Anything else is dishonest.
And yes, you are taking an officer to upgrade to FRFSRF. For +2ppm you double a 4ppm unit's firepower. The only reason to even acknowledge that 4ppm guardsmen without FRFSRF exist is in the context of CP batteries taken at the absolute minimum cost, in which case why do you care about the lasgun shots?
No, thats the cost of the character, the character has that rule not the guardsman.
Thats like saying an Imagifier adds 40pts to a unit of SIsters for an ability that the Imagifier has.
Mathematically and in a vacuum, 5pt guard are about on par when fighting 7pt fire warriors. Those 2 pts represent a 40% increase in cost, which is like the difference between a tactical marine and an intercessor, which accounts for +1 wound, +1 attack and +1 AP.
Durability-wise (with 5pt guard):
With 40 botlgun hits
- Kills 13.33 FW = 93 pts
- Kills 17.77 Guard= 89 pts
So per point they are equivalent
However, against marines:
- It takes 9 FW (63 pts) to kill 1 MEQ.
- It takes 18 Guard ( 90 pts) to kill 1 MEQ.
Guard lose out. They still have access to special weapons and FW have a turret.
- 5 FW+1 SMS (50 pts) to kill 1 MEQ.
- 7 guard+1plasma+1HB (50 pts) to kill 1 MEQ
I'm fine with this.
That shows that guard at 5ppm are actually balanced not as guard players keep complaining broken and unplayable.
You must always take into consideration how that model interacts with it's faction, or you will never get usefull results.
I mean, if we look at them without army traits, stratagems and powers, then i guess that Dark Reapers and shining spears coild really use a buff, they are so UP on paper. Lol, silly GW how could they ever think that a 34 pt model with a single wound (at T3 nonetheless!!) could be ever worth taking, when tactical marines already show us that at 13 points you already need more than one wound?
Please GW buff Dark Reapers.
If you want to prove pure math is bad, please actually do the math to show us why it is bad. Take Reapers and compare their durability and shootiness to other equivalent units (devastators, heavy weapons teams etc...), their preferred target and some standard infantry, and please give us the totals in points for comparisons.
If you don't then you haven't actually done any math, and instead just looked at some stats.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
JNAProductions wrote: So Cult Ambush and +1 Ld are worth nothing, but +1 WS is worth a point?
I would say that it can depend. At the points we're talking, neither of those are worth a full point. Going from 4 pts to 5 pts for +1 save is equivalent to upping the cost of a Russ by 40 pts for the same thing.
Are you being ironic? Do you really believe that math wise dark reapers are good???
Ok, i'll bait. Here is your comparison, 165 points of marines (sarg and 4 lascannon devs) vs 5 darks reapers (170) points. No cherub for ease of math and to make it even more stacked against marines, which are not even a competitive choice to begin with. The sarg does not even have an auspex! He also forgot his bolter home! The exarch also has a reaper launcher instead of the typical exarch weapon which would make him look bad in this AT comparison.
Durability: No match here, same exact stats except that marines are T4. This does not count against artillery o LR fire of Str8+ but against mortars, burst cannons, devourers, and the like increases durability by 20% or 33%. Marines also have an ablative wound in the sarg.
Firepower:
Against an LR equivalent (T8 3+) we have 5,08 wounds for marines 3,26 for Reapers. Marines inflict 56% more damage.
Against Predator/PBC equivalent (T7 3+) we have 5,08 wounds for marines and 4,32 for Reapers. Marines inflict 18% more damage. PBC have DR, but it impatcs both weapons for the same percentage. Marines still win by the same margin.
Against TVault/knight equivalent (T8 4++) we have 3,05 for marines and 2,47 for Reapers. Marines inflict 23% more damage.
Against Armiger equivalent (T7 5++) we have 4,02 for marines and 4,32 for reapers. Reapers win by 7%.
Against flyrant equivalent (T7 4++) we have 3,04 for marines and 3,267 for reapers. Reapers win by 7%.
Both weapons have the same range.
Satisfied? Dark reapers SUCK in AT against a non competitive choice even with the deck stacked heavily in theyr favor AND losing on durability. The are only marginally better at some type of targets, but against highly competitive choices like PBC, Leman Russes, Knights and so on, they lag a lot behind a simple dev lascannon team.
If you want to compare them against light armored targets like DE vehicles, i can give you the math for that, for i'm going to spoil it now. They will lose heavily against dedicated light AT fire, even non competitive ones.
Dark Reapers are at most a niche sidegrade for an AT choice when you want a generalist that can do a bit of light AT and a bit of heavy AT. Or that would be if you only looked at them in a vacuum, because as we all know, they are meta defining monsters. Because they have alaitoc, because the have Ynnari, because they have lighning reflexes, because they have fire and fade, because they have wave serpesents, because they have doom, because they have fortune, because they are guided and so on and so on.
Do we want to do the same for shining spears?
Those things in a vacuum woundn't even work! They have no threat turn 1 at all, no advance and charge, no double move, no nothing. They move 16" and have an AT 6" range weapon which will at most hit a screen. Oh and they are sooo durable! A scout bike is 50% more durable than them against bolters while costing 25% less and actually getting to do something turn 1 against screens!
You really don't want to see a comparison with a tomb blade, but i guess necrons are just broken, right?
Please GW buff shining spears, they are useless!
Every time you assess a model efficency you should ALWAYS look at it in the framework of it's faction.
Amishprn86 wrote: No, thats the cost of the character, the character has that rule not the guardsman.
Thats like saying an Imagifier adds 40pts to a unit of SIsters for an ability that the Imagifier has.
The character is a 20-point upgrade to an infantry squad. It has no purpose besides applying a buff to a single unit. For all relevant purposes you can treat it as part of the squad it is buffing.
There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices.
Amishprn86 wrote: No, thats the cost of the character, the character has that rule not the guardsman.
Thats like saying an Imagifier adds 40pts to a unit of SIsters for an ability that the Imagifier has.
The character is a 20-point upgrade to an infantry squad. It has no purpose besides applying a buff to a single unit. For all relevant purposes you can treat it as part of the squad it is buffing.
No, b.c that character also helps will Brigades and Battlions, it also cant be killed without powers/sniper/melee (character rule), they need to be treated as their own independent rules set like the are.
You must always take into consideration how that model interacts with it's faction, or you will never get usefull results.
I mean, if we look at them without army traits, stratagems and powers, then i guess that Dark Reapers and shining spears coild really use a buff, they are so UP on paper. Lol, silly GW how could they ever think that a 34 pt model with a single wound (at T3 nonetheless!!) could be ever worth taking, when tactical marines already show us that at 13 points you already need more than one wound?
Please GW buff Dark Reapers.
If you want to prove pure math is bad, please actually do the math to show us why it is bad. Take Reapers and compare their durability and shootiness to other equivalent units (devastators, heavy weapons teams etc...), their preferred target and some standard infantry, and please give us the totals in points for comparisons.
If you don't then you haven't actually done any math, and instead just looked at some stats.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
JNAProductions wrote: So Cult Ambush and +1 Ld are worth nothing, but +1 WS is worth a point?
I would say that it can depend. At the points we're talking, neither of those are worth a full point. Going from 4 pts to 5 pts for +1 save is equivalent to upping the cost of a Russ by 40 pts for the same thing.
Are you being ironic? Do you really believe that math wise dark reapers are good???
Ok, i'll bait. Here is your comparison, 165 points of marines (sarg and 4 lascannon devs) vs 5 darks reapers (170) points. No cherub for ease of math and to make it even more stacked against marines, which are not even a competitive choice to begin with. The sarg does not even have an auspex! He also forgot his bolter home! The exarch also has a reaper launcher instead of the typical exarch weapon which would make him look bad in this AT comparison.
Durability: No match here, same exact stats except that marines are T4. This does not count against artillery o LR fire of Str8+ but against mortars, burst cannons, devourers, and the like increases durability by 20% or 33%. Marines also have an ablative wound in the sarg.
Firepower:
Against an LR equivalent (T8 3+) we have 5,08 wounds for marines 3,26 for Reapers. Marines inflict 56% more damage.
Against Predator/PBC equivalent (T7 3+) we have 5,08 wounds for marines and 4,32 for Reapers. Marines inflict 18% more damage. PBC have DR, but it impatcs both weapons for the same percentage. Marines still win by the same margin.
Spoiler:
Against TVault/knight equivalent (T8 4++) we have 3,05 for marines and 2,47 for Reapers. Marines inflict 23% more damage.
Against Armiger equivalent (T7 5++) we have 4,02 for marines and 4,32 for reapers. Reapers win by 7%.
Against flyrant equivalent (T7 4++) we have 3,04 for marines and 3,267 for reapers. Reapers win by 7%.
Both weapons have the same range.
Satisfied? Dark reapers SUCK in AT against a non competitive choice even with the deck stacked heavily in theyr favor AND losing on durability. The are only marginally better at some type of targets, but against highly competitive choices like PBC, Leman Russes, Knights and so on, they lag a lot behind a simple dev lascannon team.
If you want to compare them against light armored targets like DE vehicles, i can give you the math for that, for i'm going to spoil it now. They will lose heavily against dedicated light AT fire, even non competitive ones.
Dark Reapers are at most a niche sidegrade for an AT choice when you want a generalist that can do a bit of light AT and a bit of heavy AT. Or that would be if you only looked at them in a vacuum, because as we all know, they are meta defining monsters. Because they have alaitoc, because the have Ynnari, because they have lighning reflexes, because they have fire and fade, because they have wave serpesents, because they have doom, because they have fortune, because they are guided and so on and so on.
Do we want to do the same for shining spears?
Those things in a vacuum woundn't even work! They have no threat turn 1 at all, no advance and charge, no double move, no nothing. They move 16" and have an AT 6" range weapon which will at most hit a screen. Oh and they are sooo durable! A scout bike is 50% more durable than them against bolters while costing 25% less and actually getting to do something turn 1 against screens!
You really don't want to see a comparison with a tomb blade, but i guess necrons are just broken, right?
Please GW buff shining spears, they are useless!
Every time you assess a model efficency you should ALWAYS look at it in the framework of it's faction.
A PBC is 3+, 5++ and 5+ FnP just FYI so reapers actually do more damage against them than the dev squad.
Secondly Guardsmen have been mathed without buffs and outperforms most of the field they have been mathed with buffs and outperformed most of the field.
Their is a few edge cases like Custodes against -3 to hit rangers that outperform them but we're talking extreme edge cases with strategums and faction bonus which people agree are busted.
Apparently in Peregrine's meta, people are allying in Guard battalion's to buff a 10 man infantry squad, and leaving Grand Strategist and the Aquila at home.
P.S.A. I won't read your posts if you break it into a million separate quotes and make an eyesore of it.
Either way to answer your question - no, I don't think Cult Ambush and +1LD is worth a point. It's worth is probably about equal to the value of having access to orders. We're also comparing codex to index units, the latter of which are likely subject to change.
So, termagaunts and guardsmen both being 4 points is wrong because guardsmen are obviously better... Fair. But GSC being obviously better than guardsmen for the same points cost is okay? Way to contradict yourself.
SHUPPET wrote: What on earth are you talking about? Nobody wastes points upgrading Guardsmen, and by shooting twice, he means every model having 2 shots in rapid fire range.
This is incorrect. People running guard CP batteries don't upgrade as they are meant to be cheap as possible. Almost everyone who runs mono-guard gets a plasma gun and sometimes a heavy bolter for the firepower boost.
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2018/08/08 10:46:22
Either way to answer your question - no, I don't think Cult Ambush and +1LD is worth a point. It's worth is probably about equal to the value of having access to orders. We're also comparing codex to index units, the latter of which are likely subject to change.
So, termagaunts and guardsmen both being 4 points is wrong because guardsmen are obviously better... Fair. But GSC being a straight upgrade to guardsmen for the same points cost is okay? Way to contradict yourself.
You think Neophytes are a straight upgrade to Guardsmen now?
I'm just chilling here with popcorn now. Everytime I think you guys are done coming out with hilarious quotables you just keep delivering
P.S.A. I won't read your posts if you break it into a million separate quotes and make an eyesore of it.
Either way to answer your question - no, I don't think Cult Ambush and +1LD is worth a point. It's worth is probably about equal to the value of having access to orders. We're also comparing codex to index units, the latter of which are likely subject to change.
So, termagaunts and guardsmen both being 4 points is wrong because guardsmen are obviously better... Fair. But GSC being a straight upgrade to guardsmen for the same points cost is okay? Way to contradict yourself.
SHUPPET wrote: What on earth are you talking about? Nobody wastes points upgrading Guardsmen, and by shooting twice, he means every model having 2 shots in rapid fire range.
This is incorrect. People running guard CP batteries don't upgrade as they are meant to be cheap as possible. Almost everyone who runs running mono-guard often get a plasma gun and sometimes a heavy bolter for the firepower boost.
Hey hey hey, Gants are so much better with their no Rapid fire guns, that are only 12" vs 24", 6+ saves vs 5+, with IB (if no synapse then -1 to shoot and charge) and no sargents (so no extra weapon for them or LD or attack), with 4pts to gain +2 shots per gant
Im not saying gants are bad, or guardsman are better, just like to point of the difference in a vacuum to be a bit snarky.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/08/08 10:55:49
SHUPPET wrote: Why are we giving Neophytes their army rule for this comparison but not Guardsmen :S
I am not familiar with GSC in all honesty, I thought cult ambush was baked into their deployment option. If that counts as their army trait, then fine we can ignore that part.
Neophytes being guardsmen +1L at the same points costs is okay to you? Keep in mind that +1L actually matters as you have to take them in squads of 10. It's not something you can just ignore like on MSU.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/08/08 10:56:18
SHUPPET wrote: Why are we giving Neophytes their army rule for this comparison but not Guardsmen :S
I am not familiar with GSC in all honesty, I thought cult ambush was baked into their deployment option. If that counts as their army trait, then fine we can ignore that part.
Neophytes being guardsmen +1L at the same points costs is okay to you? Keep in mind that +1L actually matters as you have to take them in squads of 10. It's not something you can just ignore like on MSU.
Well it depends, can the guard have ways to help LD or ignore moral? And can the GSC also gain LD buffs/ignore it? If the GSC CAN NOT then, yes it is fine.
Points isnt a vacuum, you need to see what the army can bring and cant bring.
Well it depends, can the guard have ways to help LD or ignore moral? And can the GSC also gain LD buffs/ignore it? If the GSC CAN NOT then, yes it is fine.
And can GSC double the firepower of their basic guns?
Spoletta wrote: Are you being ironic? Do you really believe that math wise dark reapers are good???
Well, yes?
Apply a minus 1 to all your marine hit rolls and look what happens.
You could potentially apply 2 - or 3.
Let the Exarch shoot through walls versus... not shooting at all - or shooting something less optimal.
Except that most of those targets can't sport a -1?
Leman russes can't (and marines would still be better even if they could), knights can't, TVaults can't, predators can't, armigers can't, PBCs can't. There are some powers here and there that give 1 unit a -1, but when you have 48" range that is not a problem.
Heavy targets in general do not have access to -1 to hit, with the following exceptions:
Alaitoc Fire prism, Hyve Tyrant (sometimes), Cfex and some stygiebots. I think that they don't even make 10% of the total targets usually seen on the table.
The tempest launcher costs more than a reaper launcher, and performs worse against T8 targets and about same against T7. The fact that it can shoot out of LOS is worth almost zero in a game where claiming LOS is close to impossible (points are made for 40K, not for ITC), when it has only range 36" and when is only on the leader of a single squad which means that it cannot reach critical mass and threath any meaningful target.
Sorry, you would have to do better to make reaper appear any good (without them being in the CWE faction).
If hellblasters were Eldar, they would be sick. Faction contest is everything.
15k+
Emperor's Spears 2500
Beastmen 10k
