Guardsmen 5 pts per model.

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**Martel732**

5+ armor on a 4 pt model is soul-crushing and shouldn't exist.

**Asmodios**

SHUPPET wrote:
Asmodios wrote:
And now we have come to the "Guard isn't a mono-faction army, and shouldn't be balanced as though they are" So after all the arguing that guard themselves are broken when there is no Data to actually back up the claim you simply pick up the goalpost and move it to guard aren't supposed to be played as a mono faction. Seems like someone is coming round to the fact that soup is the issue and that we need to do something about it instead of nerfing one army in the soup.

There is data to back it up, you just ignored all of it because it destroyed your argument. That doesn't mean it stopped existing lol, the rest of us all still remember it. And refusing to fix a balance problem in the competitive scene simply because the army in question COULD be run in a weaker way, is not how this game works, for anybody. You are the one choosing to hamper yourself, and overpowered stuff cannot be allowed to run a muck just so that weaker lists from lower caliber players are not impacted.

And taking the first fraction of a post out of context doesn't make for a very compelling argument. I said they shouldn't be balanced as a solo army as in, you comparing SOLO Guard to soup lists makes no sense. I also said immediately after that we can compare them as a solo faction - in which case you would compare them to other solo factions... You know, the logical thing to do. Super simple stuff.

But I guess you and w1zard saw that first half a sentence and started frothing at the mouth too much to read the rest of it.

No you have still provided 0 data that mono guard is broken in any way. You have provided plenty of data that soup is and issue yet everyone is focused on guard instead of addressing soup. When compared as a solo faction IG are not broken and running around stomping stuff as you claim.

**Xenomancers**

Larks wrote:
SHUPPET wrote:
Larks wrote:
Xenomancers wrote:
Most people don't even take gear on infantry squads. There is no reason to. You get to shoot twice with a lasgun for 4 points. It is super efficient. God forbid you have t3 and get shot by these things.

Mortars for sure are too cheap. It's a 10 point weapon at minimum.

If this is the level of misrepresentation you bring to the table, you should be surprised anyone is agreeing with you at all.

That "shooting twice" with a lasgun ability you've frequently mis-labelled (it does not let the squad shoot twice), will cost the Guard player 70 points for 9 "double-shooting" lasguns.

It's not 4pts/model for that ability. If you're going to decry the cost, include the entire cost that makes the mechanic you're complaining so loudly about actually possible.

What on earth are you talking about? Nobody wastes points upgrading Guardsmen, and by shooting twice, he means every model having 2 shots in rapid fire range.

No.

Xenomancers has repeatedly decried a 4pt Guardsman's ability to "shoot twice" - and yes, he was talking about FRFSRF, not just their standard lasguns - to call-out "shooting twice at 4pts/model" is to be disingenuous. 40 points will not get you that.

That's not surprising though, given that the theme of this thread is that somehow Guard being good this edition means they need to be "brought in line" - regardless that they haven't won on the back of their Codex alone. Using cherry picked "mathhammer" scenarios to prove a point, and constantly mis-representing what an Imperial Guard player gets for 40 points is the "in" thing to do around here.

5 point Guardsmen won't break the codex, but it's still an unnecessary change.

Uhhh - No? Everyone knows what FRFSRF does. It's really just guard players that underestimate how good it is. Guard can in fact reroll all hits with a squad if they are cadian. This has a surprising similarity to doubling your shots as well when you hit at bs 4+. So my statement is correct - twice.

**Bharring**

And it's really only non-Guard who think they get FSFSRF for 4ppm.

**Martel732**

Forget frfsf. They don't even need guns to be good at 4ppm. Just get in the way and take up space.

**Kanluwen**

Xenomancers wrote:

Uhhh - No? Everyone knows what FRFSRF does. It's really just guard players that underestimate how good it is. Guard can in fact reroll all hits with a squad if they are cadian. This has a surprising similarity to doubling your shots as well when you hit at bs 4+. So my statement is correct - twice.

Yeah, no. It's not "reroll all hits with a squad if they are Cadian".

Cadians, base, get to reroll 1s to hit if they do not move.
If you put "Take Aim!"(reroll 1s to hit) on them(which prevents you from putting "First Rank Fire, Second Rank Fire!" unless you have Laurels of Command on), then you get to reroll all hits.

While sure, most Guard armies aren't going to be doing a whole heck of a lot of moving--retreating from a combat will make it so that you have to use the rally Order and prevents others.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Martel732 wrote:
Forget frfsf. They don't even need guns to be good at 4ppm. Just get in the way and take up space.

And this is why it's impossible to take Martel seriously.

**Xenomancers**

ph34r wrote:
Also worth randomly saying, 10 guardsmen who can shoot like normal people cost 40.

10 guardsmen who can shoot Omg OP Fire Twice costs 55 points.

Required HQ's don't really work this way. Everyone pays a required HQ tax and wouldn't spend on HQ for things that aren't (bike captains, DP, Hive tyrants) if they didn't have to. AM are gifted with the fact that their required HQ's are way too cheap and doulbe the firepower of a unit that costs more than them.

**Asmodios**

And there goes martel again dragging the goal post to a new location

**Xenomancers**

Kanluwen wrote:
Xenomancers wrote:

Uhhh - No? Everyone knows what FRFSRF does. It's really just guard players that underestimate how good it is. Guard can in fact reroll all hits with a squad if they are cadian. This has a surprising similarity to doubling your shots as well when you hit at bs 4+. So my statement is correct - twice.

Yeah, no. It's not "reroll all hits with a squad if they are Cadian".

Cadians, base, get to reroll 1s to hit if they do not move.
If you put "Take Aim!"(reroll 1s to hit) on them(which prevents you from putting "First Rank Fire, Second Rank Fire!" unless you have Laurels of Command on), then you get to reroll all hits.

While sure, most Guard armies aren't going to be doing a whole heck of a lot of moving--retreating from a combat will make it so that you have to use the rally Order and prevents others.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Martel732 wrote:
Forget frfsf. They don't even need guns to be good at 4ppm. Just get in the way and take up space.

And this is why it's impossible to take Martel seriously.

I thought no one was taking the Infantry unit for it's firepower? It seems it is a pretty important fact. Also considering the firepower is better than most other troop units for the points and usually double when you use FRFSRF.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Asmodios wrote:
And there goes martel again dragging the goal post to a new location

No - it's a perfectly valid statement - in most games against blood angels - the infantry units don't even need to shoot to beat him. The manticores and basalisks and battle tanks can do that easily provided the infantry block his assault units - which they do easily.

**Martel732**

Asmodios wrote:
And there goes martel again dragging the goal post to a new location

No. I'm simply refuting the idea that this about the criminally undercosted officers. It isn't. Think about what i posted before you start screaming about goal posts.

**Kanluwen**

Xenomancers wrote:
ph34r wrote:
Also worth randomly saying, 10 guardsmen who can shoot like normal people cost 40.

10 guardsmen who can shoot Omg OP Fire Twice costs 55 points.

Required HQ's don't really work this way. Everyone pays a required HQ tax and wouldn't spend on HQ for things that aren't (bike captains, DP, Hive tyrants) if they didn't have to. AM are gifted with the fact that their required HQ's are way too cheap and doulbe the firepower of a unit that costs more than them.

Then make it so Infantry Squads start at 5 models with a special or a heavy, 10 models to have both.

This is the part that you and many others seem to forget/ignore. Guard Infantry can't be higher than 10 or lower than 10.

No - it's a perfectly valid statement - in most games against blood angels - the infantry units don't even need to shoot to beat him. The manticores and basalisks and battle tanks can do that easily provided the infantry block his assault units - which they do easily.

By this logic, CC units don't need weapons. They can charge, that's all that's needed to beat a shooting army right?

**Xenomancers**

Bharring wrote:
And it's really only non-Guard who think they get FSFSRF for 4ppm.

Is there an army that pays less for HQ than guard? No...so really - this is a bonus - not a downside.

**Kanluwen**

Xenomancers wrote:
Bharring wrote:
And it's really only non-Guard who think they get FSFSRF for 4ppm.

Is there an army that pays less for HQ than guard? No...so really - this is a bonus - not a downside.

Is there an army whose HQs can only apply 1 buff to a unit, regardless of how many buffs they could apply?

No...so really-this is a balancing factor-not a downside.

**Bharring**

"Required HQ's don't really work this way. Everyone pays a required HQ tax and wouldn't spend on HQ for things that aren't (bike captains, DP, Hive tyrants) if they didn't have to. AM are gifted with the fact that their required HQ's are way too cheap and doulbe the firepower of a unit that costs more than them. "

As someone who can take Warlocks and Farseers, let me tell you this: yes, it's obviously going to be taken. But that doesn't mean for 0 points. A Protect'd and Fortune'd Guardian squad is *not* 8ppm.

Sure, the AM HQs aren't expensive, but when you factor them in, FRFSRF is more than 4ppm. Also, Orders are limited by a couple factors (number of units affected, access to other orders, etc). I agree that they're too cheap and FRFSRF is too good, but how can we reasonably debate just how good it is if we start claiming crazy stuff like this?

**Xenomancers**

Kanluwen wrote:
Xenomancers wrote:
ph34r wrote:
Also worth randomly saying, 10 guardsmen who can shoot like normal people cost 40.

10 guardsmen who can shoot Omg OP Fire Twice costs 55 points.

Required HQ's don't really work this way. Everyone pays a required HQ tax and wouldn't spend on HQ for things that aren't (bike captains, DP, Hive tyrants) if they didn't have to. AM are gifted with the fact that their required HQ's are way too cheap and doulbe the firepower of a unit that costs more than them.

Then make it so Infantry Squads start at 5 models with a special or a heavy, 10 models to have both.

This is the part that you and many others seem to forget/ignore. Guard Infantry can't be higher than 10 or lower than 10.

No - it's a perfectly valid statement - in most games against blood angels - the infantry units don't even need to shoot to beat him. The manticores and basalisks and battle tanks can do that easily provided the infantry block his assault units - which they do easily.

By this logic, CC units don't need weapons. They can charge, that's all that's needed to beat a shooting army right?

That would be true if they couldn't just fall back and shoot you to death...with things like...fly keyword...or the the case of imperial gaurd - GET BACK IN THE FIGHT. This is just getting too rich man. You can't defend infantry. They are OP. I could take a 20 man rubric squad - and be made competely useless for the rest of the game if a unit gets into CC with me. That is nearly a 400 point unit. Ig infantry squads though...they can get back in the fight. It is indefensible that a unit so cheap has so much utility. It is a joke.

**Bharring**

How substantially cheaper is an Officer than an SM LT? When you're taking them in small volume, what % of the list is that difference?

**Martel732**

It would be a great insult to be taken seriously by kanluwen. This thread is a battle between those who get it and those who don't. I don't think the "don't get it crowd" ever will.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Bharring wrote:
How substantially cheaper is an Officer than an SM LT? When you're taking them in small volume, what % of the list is that difference?

Less than half usually.

**Xenomancers**

Why does squad number mater...do you really want to be able to take 20 point 5 man infantry squads...come on man...

**Bharring**

You do know that a squad that fell back and is now shooting is not getting FRFSRF? More likely, though, wouldn't another squad be getting FRFSRF and what fell back won't be shooting?

Honestly, is spending an order so the remnants of a 10-man Guard squad after being blendered can shoot RF1 S3AP0 guns without FRFSRF really that much of a change?

**Xenomancers**

Bharring wrote:
You do know that a squad that fell back and is now shooting is not getting FRFSRF? More likely, though, wouldn't another squad be getting FRFSRF and what fell back won't be shooting?

Honestly, is spending an order so the remnants of a 10-man Guard squad after being blendered can shoot RF1 S3AP0 guns without FRFSRF really that much of a change?

There are lots of situations where you get locked up and take 0 casualties. Consolidation. Sure it's not a lot a firepower - but its firepower that every other non fly base troop that isn't a harlequin or and ultramarine loses out on. Oh and the Ultra marines get a penalty for it...because if guard can fall back and shoot at full BS. Why would a space marine be able to do that without a -1 penalty? Also considering he costs 3x as much. LOL. It really is getting to absurd levels. Rational argument has reached it's peek here. Defenders wont listen. Just trying to protect their camp - which I understand. Just know - this is part of the reason why GW has such a hard time balancing their games. People being unwilling to be honest.

**Slayer-Fan123**

Kanluwen wrote:
Xenomancers wrote:
Bharring wrote:
And it's really only non-Guard who think they get FSFSRF for 4ppm.

Is there an army that pays less for HQ than guard? No...so really - this is a bonus - not a downside.

Is there an army whose HQs can only apply 1 buff to a unit, regardless of how many buffs they could apply?

No...so really-this is a balancing factor-not a downside.

Necron Overlords for starters.

**Bharring**

I wouldn't agree that the UM penalty for falling back and shooting (-1 to hit) is worse than the IG one (no FRFSRF).

I do think 'buffhammer' is doing much more harm than good to the balance of the game. It's really hard to balance IG when they can cheaply (but not freely) fire twice or fallback and shoot. Or balance Iron Hands without making UM and RG op.

**Marmatag**

Incapable of being honest is more like it.

**Bharring**

One of the reasons "Defenders won't listen" is because you're just producing noise.

As soon as you claim FSRSRF IG are 4ppm, it becomes really hard to take anything else you say seriously. If you were to clean up your arguments to be more accurate (whether that's an honesty issue or a comprehension issue), a rational discussion might be possible.

**jcd386**

Xenomancers wrote:
Why does squad number mater...do you really want to be able to take 20 point 5 man infantry squads...come on man...

You don't think people would like 120 point battilions?

Or 20 point 5w objective holders?

I think they would.

**Marmatag**

Bharring wrote:
One of the reasons "Defenders won't listen" is because you're just producing noise.

As soon as you claim FSRSRF IG are 4ppm, it becomes really hard to take anything else you say seriously. If you were to clean up your arguments to be more accurate (whether that's an honesty issue or a comprehension issue), a rational discussion might be possible.

Yet you have no trouble saying Hormagants are 5ppm and have synapse, and Termagants are 4ppm and have synapse.

If we factor in a neurothrope for 20 hormagants, that's 170 points, or 8.5 points per model.

**JNAProductions**

Marmatag wrote:
Bharring wrote:
One of the reasons "Defenders won't listen" is because you're just producing noise.

As soon as you claim FSRSRF IG are 4ppm, it becomes really hard to take anything else you say seriously. If you were to clean up your arguments to be more accurate (whether that's an honesty issue or a comprehension issue), a rational discussion might be possible.

Yet you have no trouble saying Hormagants are 5ppm and have synapse, and Termagants are 4ppm and have synapse.

If we factor in a neurothrope for 20 hormagants, that's 170 points, or 8.5 points per model.

How many units is that one Thrope buffing? Two? Five?

Because a Company Commander buffs two and no more, meaning he effectively adds 15 points to the cost. Not to mention, the Thrope is pretty useful even outside providing buffs. A Company Commander, not so much.

**Bharring**

Marmatag,
Gaunts are not 4/5ppm with synapse. They're 4/5ppm unbuffed. Instinctive Behavior is part of costing them.

Also, Synapse works quite different from Orders in that it's an always-on aura. So you're not limited to how many Gaunts an individual HQ protects.

I agree that it's a valid comparison.

Jcd,
I think his point is that the *other side of the table* would have a problem with that.

**Xenomancers**

Bharring wrote:
I wouldn't agree that the UM penalty for falling back and shooting (-1 to hit) is worse than the IG one (no FRFSRF).

I do think 'buffhammer' is doing much more harm than good to the balance of the game. It's really hard to balance IG when they can cheaply (but not freely) fire twice or fallback and shoot. Or balance Iron Hands without making UM and RG op.

Sure it is - the space marine can not fire his bolter twice for any reason - the IG can do that any turn he is not in assault. The ultra marine has to be charged to even make use of his trait - then he has to suffer a penalty to shoot if he uses it..

Oh and the 3 command commanders that cost 90 points...are about equal to my captain that gives reroll 1's if I give him a CC weapon...A catachan army can get reroll 1's with a freaking 50 point elite character for help filling out brigades if they want. HOLY CRAP. They are shoot twice and rerolling 1's? This army sucks.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

jcd386 wrote:
Xenomancers wrote:
Why does squad number mater...do you really want to be able to take 20 point 5 man infantry squads...come on man...

You don't think people would like 120 point battilions?

Or 20 point 5w objective holders?

I think they would.

OFC they would.

**Bharring**

Which makes IG with FRFSRF... roughly 5ppm!

Now, I think that's too low. Clearly, Xeno agrees. But it's easier to talk about it either that way, or talk about IG as 4ppm without FRFSRF.