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Asmodios wrote:

If 1900 points of guard is put on the table and then 100 points of something else then soup is winning that game. There is a reason why mono guard is not running around stomping tournaments and its because on their own they are very strong but not broken. What is broken is the ability to mix and match armies to cover all the built-in weaknesses in any single codex. The simple fact that you don't constantly see mono guard claiming top spots at tournaments shows that they are not strong enough solo to compete at top tables. It's funny how an all knight list can make it to the top tables at BAO though and there isn't a 25-page nuke knights thread.... Nope just nuke guard no other ingredients of the soup need work

The time of single codex factions is over. 8th has ushered in a new era: Behold the mighty "Imperium" faction!

Just face it, 8th was designed and balanced *gasp* to play like this. And yeah, I can empirically prove that Custodes were designed to ally with other Imperium units. So that whole "in-built weakness" is just how you would design the game and not how it is actually designed.
But I get it, you don't like soup. Too bad I love soup since it let's me do all sorts of cool wacky things with my army(ies).

(also, don't be disingenuous, plenty of people have mentioned Knights)

Ice_can wrote:

Asmodios wrote:

 skchsan wrote:
And yet, no pure IG player has been able to post a list that gets crippled by 5ppm guardsmen...

And no player has posted a mono guard list that's stomping through the tournament scene.

Because your definition of soup is anything less than 2000points of pure guard is soup and doesn't show guard as strong only soup.

Guard beat every other troop choice they have been compaired to in both damage resistance and output at 4ppm and start to become balance against some of the best at 5ppm.

The fact that people are taking guard battalions even without Grand Strategists and Kurov's Admittedly not doing as well, but are taking them says the are bringing more than the CP regeneration over evey other imperial troop unit.

Yeah mono IG is exactly what it sounds like "only IG' the second you start mixing in stuff you are now souping stuff. Nobody is saying IG + unit x you funnel your CP into is not strong. What you want to do is punish every mono IG player for the sins of soup instead of just fixing soup. Mono IG is in a good place right now where they are strong as a solo dex but not running around crushing tournaments.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

Dandelion wrote:

Asmodios wrote:

If 1900 points of guard is put on the table and then 100 points of something else then soup is winning that game. There is a reason why mono guard is not running around stomping tournaments and its because on their own they are very strong but not broken. What is broken is the ability to mix and match armies to cover all the built-in weaknesses in any single codex. The simple fact that you don't constantly see mono guard claiming top spots at tournaments shows that they are not strong enough solo to compete at top tables. It's funny how an all knight list can make it to the top tables at BAO though and there isn't a 25-page nuke knights thread.... Nope just nuke guard no other ingredients of the soup need work

The time of single codex factions is over. 8th has ushered in a new era: Behold the mighty "Imperium" faction!

Just face it, 8th was designed and balanced *gasp* to play like this. And yeah, I can empirically prove that Custodes were designed to ally with other Imperium units. So that whole "in-built weakness" is just how you would design the game and not how it is actually designed.
But I get it, you don't like soup. Too bad I love soup since it let's me do all sorts of cool wacky things with my army(ies).

(also, don't be disingenuous, plenty of people have mentioned Knights)

If you actually want to balance with soup in mind then give units multiple costs. Guardsmen can be 6ppm in soup and 4ppm when taken in a mono list. You might think that soup is the only way people play but i guarantee if GW did a survey many more people own mono faction armies then go out and buy the flavor of the week


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 SHUPPET wrote:
They don't have to to prove you wrong as your criteria for restriction isn't based off a tournament setting at all. There is no data based on mono faction tournaments because nobody plays the game that way, so there will be no tournament data to reference what you're saying. The way it is played, Guard is dominant, so the game mode that is played competitively is the one that we balance around - not the one that doesn't exist. This is how GW has been balancing the game so far in this edition so you are lying to yourself if you think this won't continue going forward. An easy comparison that has direct parallels with this topic, would be the Nerf that Cultists got even though solo CSM was nowhere near as dominant as Chaos "soup". So your entire argument is based on a fallacious and low level understanding of how balance works.
Additionally, there's zero reason to believe that all the reasons for Guard being a 5 pt model would suddenly stop being true in a mono faction setting. YOU are the one claiming how this would change the army if it is restricted to mono-faction, so the onus is on YOU to provide some data for that. The rest of us are unmistakably discussing Guards overpowered nature as a primary in the tournament scene.

You keep proving yourself wrong...... if guard was an issue you would see it at tournaments...... Soup is the issue and its why you are seeing it everywhere at tournaments.

The tournament data shows you exactly what is being taken because its op and its not IG and especially not IG with 150 guardsman.... Soup is op and its why you see it everywhere... so fix soup

w1zard wrote:

Ice_can wrote:
...and start to become balance against some of the best at 5ppm.

Except rangers... and neophytes... anyone have the stats for kabalites? I'd love to do the math to compare kabalites to 5ppm guardsmen. Can we have the stats for skitarii vanguard while we are at it? PM me if you think it's going to be an issue posting on the forum.

I already posted that Rangers IMHO are 8ppm not 7.

The reason no-one is complaining about Rangers is they arn't common in top competitive lists, same goes for Vanguard. Simply put Infantry Squads a 4ppm are better tan 7ppm Rangers. Move guard to 5ppm and if top soup list leap on mass to Rangers we've just found the next most powerful troop, make the 8ppm if the next jump is to Vanguard we look at those I'm not sure Vanguard are OP at 8ppm and making them 9ppm could be interesting as thats SoB territory.

Kabalites are straight up broken, but that's Eldar and both dex's need sweeping changes. The eldar dex is a bit like marines Alitoc is OP everything else kinda sucks in comparison. Untill Alitoc is fixed, like remove Alitoc from vehicals, where is Non Alitoc eldar powerwise? Alitoc is all you ever seem to see in tournaments.

Ice_can wrote:

Asmodios wrote:

 skchsan wrote:
And yet, no pure IG player has been able to post a list that gets crippled by 5ppm guardsmen...

And no player has posted a mono guard list that's stomping through the tournament scene.

Because your definition of soup is anything less than 2000points of pure guard is soup and doesn't show guard as strong only soup.

Just so we're clear:
You're making the argument that anything that includes another faction isn't soup, provided the count is low enough? Is that right?

Because that's kind of a silly measure to use.

Also, I actually posted the BAO lists-at least, the top five.

The four that had actual lists used the bare minimum of guard, and the one that didn’t have a complete list most definitely had BA and Knights, just of an unknown amount.

 JNAProductions wrote:
Also, I actually posted the BAO lists-at least, the top five.

The four that had actual lists used the bare minimum of guard, and the one that didn’t have a complete list most definitely had BA and Knights, just of an unknown amount.

But see, if they used the bare minimum of Guard it means they're a Guard list!

 Kanluwen wrote:

Ice_can wrote:

Asmodios wrote:

 skchsan wrote:
And yet, no pure IG player has been able to post a list that gets crippled by 5ppm guardsmen...

And no player has posted a mono guard list that's stomping through the tournament scene.

Because your definition of soup is anything less than 2000points of pure guard is soup and doesn't show guard as strong only soup.

Just so we're clear:
You're making the argument that anything that includes another faction isn't soup, provided the count is low enough? Is that right?

Because that's kind of a silly measure to use.

Well I can't take 1800 points of marines and a shield captain on jet bike as say it's soup thats weak, if only I hadn't taken that custodes HQ.
Top table lists don't take weak units everything is chosen as it is the best unit at what you want it to do.
Units are chosen for soup becuase they are the best available unit.

Since we're talking about soup. If Guard infantry are as prevalent is soup armies as mono IG, doesn't that make Guard their own worst enemy?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
Also, I actually posted the BAO lists-at least, the top five.

The four that had actual lists used the bare minimum of guard, and the one that didn’t have a complete list most definitely had BA and Knights, just of an unknown amount.

But see, if they used the bare minimum of Guard it means they're a Guard list!

I believe the cut-off point was 1500 pts of guard to be "primarily guard" (from what I saw).

Then Asmodios takes the stance the 1900 pts of Guard +100 pts of Assassins does not reflect the strength of guard, but rather the strength of soup.

Dandelion wrote:
Since we're talking about soup. If Guard infantry are as prevalent is soup armies as mono IG, doesn't that make Guard their own worst enemy?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
Also, I actually posted the BAO lists-at least, the top five.

The four that had actual lists used the bare minimum of guard, and the one that didn’t have a complete list most definitely had BA and Knights, just of an unknown amount.

But see, if they used the bare minimum of Guard it means they're a Guard list!

I believe the cut-off point was 1500 pts of guard to be "primarily guard" (from what I saw).

Then Asmodios takes the stance the 1900 pts of Guard +100 pts of Assassins does not reflect the strength of guard, but rather the strength of soup.

It does...... when you have to add in something from another list in order to make IG work and IG cant win alone it is showing the power of souping

 JNAProductions wrote:
Also, I actually posted the BAO lists-at least, the top five.

The four that had actual lists used the bare minimum of guard, and the one that didn’t have a complete list most definitely had BA and Knights, just of an unknown amount.

Uhhh... It had 1 Knight and no BA, so you're wrong on that. Only one of the top 3 Guard Primary lists had BA.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Dakkas Guard players keep exposing themselves as the least skilled and I love it. I guess it is the army aimed at bringing hobbyists into the fold, so makes sense.

Ice_can wrote:
I already posted that Rangers IMHO are 8ppm not 7.

The reason no-one is complaining about Rangers is they arn't common in top competitive lists, same goes for Vanguard. Simply put Infantry Squads a 4ppm are better tan 7ppm Rangers. Move guard to 5ppm and if top soup list leap on mass to Rangers we've just found the next most powerful troop, make the 8ppm if the next jump is to Vanguard we look at those I'm not sure Vanguard are OP at 8ppm and making them 9ppm could be interesting as thats SoB territory.

Kabalites are straight up broken, but that's Eldar and both dex's need sweeping changes. The eldar dex is a bit like marines Alitoc is OP everything else kinda sucks in comparison. Untill Alitoc is fixed, like remove Alitoc from vehicals, where is Non Alitoc eldar powerwise? Alitoc is all you ever seem to see in tournaments.

Right so guard at 4ppm are NOT where they should be, on that we agree. But pushing them to 5ppm without touching anything else instantly makes them worse then rangers, vanguards, neophytes, kabalites, and probably most other basic infantry (with the exception of fire warriors).

You fix those other units at the same time and you can fix guardsmen, not before. Otherwise we will run into a situation where guard is dead for 6 months until CA comes out, or longer if GW is lazy and doesn't fix the other factions.

I think what the 5ppm guardsmen crowd are really arguing for is a sweeping change to chaff infantry?

I posted my sources, earlier in the thread. List #3 is the one without a complete list, so unless you’re saying my source is wrong...

Dandelion wrote:
Since we're talking about soup. If Guard infantry are as prevalent is soup armies as mono IG, doesn't that make Guard their own worst enemy?

You would think so, but nobody ever goes that route...

 Kanluwen wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
Also, I actually posted the BAO lists-at least, the top five.

The four that had actual lists used the bare minimum of guard, and the one that didn’t have a complete list most definitely had BA and Knights, just of an unknown amount.

But see, if they used the bare minimum of Guard it means they're a Guard list!

I believe the cut-off point was 1500 pts of guard to be "primarily guard" (from what I saw).

Then Asmodios takes the stance the 1900 pts of Guard +100 pts of Assassins does not reflect the strength of guard, but rather the strength of soup.

This is one of those things where I have to take issue:
1500 points of Guard as "primarily Guard" sounds like it's a tournament list thing. Is that correct?

I'd, personally, argue that as soon as any allies make it in(and hell--I'll even say other <Regiment/Sept/Chapter> units would count) it becomes a bit watered down. Once you bring another army in for whatever reason, it seems like you should consider that a soup list.

That's my take on it. But I'm looking it from the AoS POV where you can only take a certain percentage of your army as an allied faction--doesn't matter how many models it is, just certain percentage of points total.

@ fe40k, Re: Plasmagun Upgrade

Vs MEQ in the open:

40 pts: 9 Lasgun shots, long range, avg 0.5 Marines Killed - 80 points per casualty

51 pts: 8 Lasgun shots, 1 "Standard Charge" Plasma shot, long range, avg 0.722 Marines killed, 70.64 points per casualty

51 pts: 8 LG shots, 1 "Overcharge" Plasma shot, long range, avg 0.792 Marines (over) killed, 64.39 points per casualty

55 pts: 18 Lasgun shots, (half a Commander's points) long range, avg 1.0 Marines killed, 55 points per casualty.

- Unless targeting multi-wound infantry, lasguns output more damage *while the entire unit is alive*.

40 points: (5 dead, killed the Sarge) 5 shots long range, 0.278 dead Marines, 143.88 points per casualty

51 points (5 dead, killed the Sarge) 4x LG, 1x PG (Standard), long range, 0.5 dead Marines, 102 points per casualty

51 points (5 dead, killed the Sarge) 4x LG, 1x PG (OC), long range, 0.569 (Over) dead Marines, 89.63 points per casualty

55 points (5 dead, killed the Sarge, half a Commander's points) 10x LG, long range, 0.556 dead Marines, 98.92 points per casualty

- Once the casualties start piling up, and they do, handfuls at a time, having a single weapon able to inflict significant damage is more valuable. And against any target with multiple wounds, the Plasmagun squad becomes more efficient, even at full size.

- Guard win via attrition. People point out that there's no efficient way to kill off Guardsmen. This is correct. However, you can still deplete their damage potential with wounds. A single Plasmagun accounts for 44% of a FULL Strength squad's damage output, against MEQ, and more against Multi-wound targets. This damage is continuous until the final wound, and does not decrease with wounds, unlike FRF, SRF. The Plasmagun is more valuable to the way Guard actually operate on the table.

- The same logic applies to Heavy weapons, but not everyone uses those...


The game seldom provides ideal circumstances. Lasguns are still a poor weapon, as are bolters, and Gauss Rifles, and Shootas... They're all crap. 100% better crap is just bigger crap. Lasguns are still just space fillers, and wound markers for your upgrades.

Imagine, you have 100 lasguns. You shoot them. You kill 4-7 Marines. Yes, they're awesome against little nids, and they're good against Orks... now what do you do about the other 100 little nids, or 50 Orks?

Vs T6, 3+? 1/36 lasgun shots will wound. To inflict 6 wounds? 216 shots. Divided by 4, to put all of these Lasguns in Rapid Fire with FRF, SRF range? 54 Lasgunners.

6, Full Strength Infantry Squads, with Three officers to issue orders, all in rapid fire range (they snuck up on and surrounded that silly Monstrous Creature, without taking damage!).

Put 60 Models, in a circle 12" radius, around a monstrous creature. And you inflict 6 wounds, on average. Sometimes, (about half) not that many. So about 60% of the time, you inflict 6+ wounds on a Monstrous Creature and let's say kill it. and you somehow manouvered this all into position, without taking damage. 40% of the time, that MC is going to live and start mulching dudes. *It was in cover?!?* Whoops! Now we need 120 lasgunners, and 6 Senior officers to kill that thing, rolling 480 attack dice!

Plus, you just directed over 200 attacks at something (mediocre... an Armoured Sentinel!) and it didn't die. And now, what's your opponent going to do? They were nice, and didn't attack you for 3 turns while you set up your shooting gallery, and now you are in for a world of hurt because you didn't stop the tide before it got to within 12" of you.

FRF, SRF genuinely is not impressive once it hits the table. Double-tapping 6 OC Plasma? An average of 6.6 wounds. And you only need to get 6 guys into range, instead of 60. And that didn't use the Order for targeting MC or Vehicles... which would have made that better. Seriously. FRF, SRF is a sucker's game.


Knights have something like 24 wounds, don't they? Let's take 250 Lasgunners, (1000 points) all in rapid fire, all getting FRF, SRF, and shoot them! 1000/2/6/3 = 28 wounds, horray! We reliably down a Knight in some magical world where the Knight moved into the centre of a ruin, and we had 10 layers of ruins so all 250 guys could all get in Rapid Fire range, and we really let him have it!

These scenarios don't exist in real games.

Asmodios wrote:

If you actually want to balance with soup in mind then give units multiple costs. Guardsmen can be 6ppm in soup and 4ppm when taken in a mono list. You might think that soup is the only way people play but i guarantee if GW did a survey many more people own mono faction armies then go out and buy the flavor of the week

I don't think soup is the only way to play. However, you cannot deny that GW intentionally designed 8th to allow all the allies you could ever want.
Everything from the way detachments work to Faction keywords was designed to allow and encourage allies. 8th is already balanced around "soup".

But let's take a step back. You have mentioned time and again how factions need to have weaknesses right? So what happened when GW gave Guard access to:
- Admech Techpriest Enginseers
- Ministorum Priests
AND
- Ministorum Crusaders
?

Are these not soup options added to shore up weaknesses? And on top of that, Guard are the only faction that can take them without breaking regiments!
So while Guard get access to Enginseers, Admech get what? Well, it certainly wasn't a chimera.

Then what happened to Assassins? GW had to patch together a fix to keep them legal because they were designed to mix within other detachments.

Lastly you seem to have this idea that "soup" is only used by people who want to game the system and not good casual/normal/fluffy players. So tell me, is my WIP Deimos Skitarii army supported by Grey Knights and Mechanicus knights "flavor of the week" or is it just another army?



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kanluwen wrote:

I'd, personally, argue that as soon as any allies make it in(and hell--I'll even say other <Regiment/Sept/Chapter> units would count) it becomes a bit watered down. Once you bring another army in for whatever reason, it seems like you should consider that a soup list.

That's my take on it. But I'm looking it from the AoS POV where you can only take a certain percentage of your army as an allied faction--doesn't matter how many models it is, just certain percentage of points total.

If that's your take then "soup" has little to no meaning. You're starting to treat it like it's its own uber-faction. Soup won the last tourney, not DG+RK then?

Dandelion wrote:
Are these not soup options added to shore up weaknesses? And on top of that, Guard are the only faction that can take them without breaking regiments!
So while Guard get access to Enginseers, Admech get what? Well, it certainly wasn't a chimera.

Soup breaks guard regiments too... just saying. The enginseer has been a unit in the guard codex since 3rd edition. We have our own datasheet with the astra militarum keyword, we aren't lifting anything from the cult mechanicus book. If anything, cult mechanicus stole the enginseer from guard.

w1zard wrote:

Dandelion wrote:
Are these not soup options added to shore up weaknesses? And on top of that, Guard are the only faction that can take them without breaking regiments!
So while Guard get access to Enginseers, Admech get what? Well, it certainly wasn't a chimera.

Soup breaks guard regiments too... just saying.

Not for these three units it doesn't.
Page 132:
- Advisors and auxilia:
The units listed below can be included in an a ASTRA MILITARUM detachment without preventing other units from gaining a Regimental Doctrine:
- Enginseer
- Servitor
- Priest
- Crusader

Ho hum

Dandelion wrote:

w1zard wrote:

Dandelion wrote:
Are these not soup options added to shore up weaknesses? And on top of that, Guard are the only faction that can take them without breaking regiments!
So while Guard get access to Enginseers, Admech get what? Well, it certainly wasn't a chimera.

Soup breaks guard regiments too... just saying.

Not for these three units it doesn't.
Page 132:
- Advisors and auxilia:
The units listed below can be included in an a ASTRA MILITARUM detachment without preventing other units from gaining a Regimental Doctrine:
- Enginseer
- Servitor
- Priest
- Crusader

Ho hum

Outside of the Crusaders, those items have been in the Guard book for a long time.

Those units also don't gain a Regimental Doctrine or any benefits. And one of those Auxilia is Scions, who also cannot receive Orders or their own Regimental Doctrine unless taken in a singular Regiment.

Ho hum.

 Kanluwen wrote:

Dandelion wrote:

w1zard wrote:

Dandelion wrote:
Are these not soup options added to shore up weaknesses? And on top of that, Guard are the only faction that can take them without breaking regiments!
So while Guard get access to Enginseers, Admech get what? Well, it certainly wasn't a chimera.

Soup breaks guard regiments too... just saying.

Not for these three units it doesn't.
Page 132:
- Advisors and auxilia:
The units listed below can be included in an a ASTRA MILITARUM detachment without preventing other units from gaining a Regimental Doctrine:
- Enginseer
- Servitor
- Priest
- Crusader

Ho hum

Outside of the Crusaders, those items have been in the Guard book for a long time.

Those units also don't gain a Regimental Doctrine or any benefits. And one of those Auxilia is Scions, who also cannot receive Orders or their own Regimental Doctrine unless taken in a singular Regiment.

Ho hum.

Neato observations there. I suppose you agree with me since none of that contradicts what I said.

Dandelion wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

Dandelion wrote:

w1zard wrote:

Dandelion wrote:
Are these not soup options added to shore up weaknesses? And on top of that, Guard are the only faction that can take them without breaking regiments!
So while Guard get access to Enginseers, Admech get what? Well, it certainly wasn't a chimera.

Soup breaks guard regiments too... just saying.

Not for these three units it doesn't.
Page 132:
- Advisors and auxilia:
The units listed below can be included in an a ASTRA MILITARUM detachment without preventing other units from gaining a Regimental Doctrine:
- Enginseer
- Servitor
- Priest
- Crusader

Ho hum

Outside of the Crusaders, those items have been in the Guard book for a long time.

Those units also don't gain a Regimental Doctrine or any benefits. And one of those Auxilia is Scions, who also cannot receive Orders or their own Regimental Doctrine unless taken in a singular Regiment.

Ho hum.

Neato observations there. I suppose you agree with me since none of that contradicts what I said.

All those items still feature "Astra Militarum" as a keyword--and they're in the army book.

I mean, I get what you're driving at--but your example is flawed.

I don't typically agree with Kanluwen, but in this case I have to.
Out of all the things to get up at about Guard, it's ridiculous to take aim at units they've had for multiple editions that don't even benefit from the normal Doctrines.

Iirc the Enginseer wasn't even in the 7th Editon Cult Mechanicus codex.

Also Servitors? Really? You mean that unit that all flavours of Loyalist Marines also have that actually have the <Chapter> keyword and benefit from Chapter Tactics? (Not saying they're good, just pointing out a double standard)

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
I don't typically agree with Kanluwen, but in this case I have to.
Out of all the things to get up at about Guard, it's ridiculous to take aim at units they've had for multiple editions that don't even benefit from the normal Doctrines.

Well I know for a fact Death Guard lose their bonus the moment they decide to include a couple of Plaguebearers, and I am pretty sure Thousand Sons suffer the same fate.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
I don't typically agree with Kanluwen, but in this case I have to.
Out of all the things to get up at about Guard, it's ridiculous to take aim at units they've had for multiple editions that don't even benefit from the normal Doctrines.

Well I know for a fact Death Guard lose their bonus the moment they decide to include a couple of Plaguebearers, and I am pretty sure Thousand Sons suffer the same fate.

Of course, and as a Chaos player I agree it's kind of stupid that GW would put those unit datasheets in the codex only for summoning, but at the same time CSMs and Daemons proper have been in different codexes since 4th. (I'm not counting the generic, summonable Greater and Lesser statlines from 4th and 5th because they aren't proper daemons)

It's a different situation.

 Kanluwen wrote:

All those items still feature "Astra Militarum" as a keyword--and they're in the army book.

I mean, I get what you're driving at--but your example is flawed.

To be perfectly clear, I am not knocking Guard for having these. I am refuting Asmosdios' claim that soup balance should be separate from mono-faction balance.
His arguments tend to revolve around faction identity and faction weaknesses and how other factions should pay a premium for the privelage of taking allies because they "aren't balanced" outside of their faction. I brought up the auxilia to demonstrate that GW wants people to soup and that 8th edition was designed from the ground up with this in mind.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
I don't typically agree with Kanluwen, but in this case I have to.
Out of all the things to get up at about Guard, it's ridiculous to take aim at units they've had for multiple editions that don't even benefit from the normal Doctrines.

Iirc the Enginseer wasn't even in the 7th Editon Cult Mechanicus codex.

Also Servitors? Really? You mean that unit that all flavours of Loyalist Marines also have that actually have the <Chapter> keyword and benefit from Chapter Tactics? (Not saying they're good, just pointing out a double standard)

Try differentiating my thesis from my argument. (also, keep in mind the context of the conversation, asmodios said that to balance soup non-guard armies should pay 6pts for guardsmen while mono-Guard only pay 4pts)

Thesis: GW designed and balanced 8th to allow and even encourage "soup"

Arguments:
- Faction Keywords
- Detachments
- Guard Auxilia
- Custodes banner thing

As for the servitors, they were just part of the auxilia list so I included them.
We good?

Dandelion wrote:

No, in fact I said nothing of the sort. Guard are appearing in soup because they are too cheap for their value. If Tactical marines were 8 pts a pop, people wouldn't be getting enough of them, you'd see them everywhere.

No its got nothing to do with being cheap. Its do with giving 5CP plus CP regen. You think that if the price stayed the same and no 5CP/regen from secondary/soup detachment that people would still take IG battalion? I think not. Heck increase it to 5ppm and a minimum batallion of 210 and people will still take it. The guardsmen are just the icing on the cake.

A min Admech battalion is 201 pts. I suspect there is more to the story than just CP.
I don't even have to suspect it, I've been told flat out by someone who uses Guard that's it's due to their durability. (and they even play admech)

As for CP regen. It's too much. Other factions only get 1 way to regen CP and it's usually on a 6.
So basically there is a plethora of issues in 8th that need to be fixed, and 4pt guard is just one of them.

Anyway, I'm pretty tapped out from all this so peace out.

Dandelion wrote:
A min Admech battalion is 201 pts. I suspect there is more to the story than just CP.
I don't even have to suspect it, I've been told flat out by someone who uses Guard that's it's due to their durability. (and they even play admech)

As for CP regen. It's too much. Other factions only get 1 way to regen CP and it's usually on a 6.
So basically there is a plethora of issues in 8th that need to be fixed, and 4pt guard is just one of them.

Anyway, I'm pretty tapped out from all this so peace out.

Well anecdotal evidence shouldn't be used to back an argument. From all the list reviews I have done for the past several months (and I am not saying this is conclusive) there has never been a guard battalion added that isn't a CP regen battalion and to give the list 5CP boost. Every reviewer will tell you that a guard battalion is purely for CP and regen. Outside of this thread I haven't heard anyone bring up the amazing durability of the humble guardsmen. We are here analysing it in a vaccum. On the battlefield guard battalions get cleared pretty quickly outside of some flukey 5+ saves.

I do believe CP regen should be fixed, guard dont really need it (but then not all guard take battalions, a 9CP battalion and spearhead is pretty common) and other armies are just using guard to get to it. I would like to see 8.5 edition that tweaks how CP and strategems are distributed.

 Smirrors wrote:
Every reviewer will tell you that a guard battalion is purely for CP and regen.

I've never heard anyone ever say that. It doesn't even make sense, if that was the case just grab a Supreme Command. Everyone says it adds multiple things to your army, and that those units often pull their own weight over the course of a game. Listen to Geoff Robinson talk about his success with Custode's, for example.


Also nevermind the fact that half these Battalions are taking more than just the minimum as well, I'd say your theory is pretty much bust

The battalion also adds a lot of bodies, which is important for many different armies. It's not just for the CP battery, although the CP battery is a defining feature of the Guard battalion over other battalions.

Scrap CP regen abilities and/or otherwise alter how CP & stratagem access currently works for soup armies.
Scrap -1 to hit outside 12" chapter tactics abilities.
Raise Dissies by 3-5 points.

See where the game is after that and balance accordingly.
I suspect IG/Knights/DE would be top tier.