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w1zard wrote:

 grouchoben wrote:
Guard Strats are bad now? That's cray talk.

Defensive gunners, take cover, crush them!, grenadiers, vengeance for cadia, ambush & overlapping fields of fire are all solid.

Two of those are regiment specific. The others are decent, but situational. For example, vengeance for cadia is absolutely useless unless you are fighting a chaos army. Grenadiers actually makes your guardsmen worse than FRFSRF.

None of them really makes me say "wow".

The ability to spam mediocre stratagems makes me say wow. It also slows down the game when people are playing stratagems just because they can. It is hugely annoying. I just want to point out - if eldar had access to guard stratagems It would make eldar even stronger.

any 10 man unit could drop 10 plasma grenades 10d6 str4 ap-1?
Dark reapers sitting on 1+ saves in cover? Or 0+ with protect on them.
2+ to hit with reroll 1's from autarch + doom - for an entire army to getting Gman buff against any single unit?

It wouldn't hurt eldar one bit if they were forced to use gaurd stratagems. The only big thing they would lose is -1 to hit - but they would gain a lot of offense.

 Xenomancers wrote:

w1zard wrote:

 grouchoben wrote:
Guard Strats are bad now? That's cray talk.

Defensive gunners, take cover, crush them!, grenadiers, vengeance for cadia, ambush & overlapping fields of fire are all solid.

Two of those are regiment specific. The others are decent, but situational. For example, vengeance for cadia is absolutely useless unless you are fighting a chaos army. Grenadiers actually makes your guardsmen worse than FRFSRF.

None of them really makes me say "wow".

The ability to spam mediocre stratagems makes me say wow. It also slows down the game when people are playing stratagems just because they can. It is hugely annoying. I just want to point out - if eldar had access to guard stratagems It would make eldar even stronger.

any 10 man unit could drop 10 plasma grenades 10d6 str4 ap-1?
Dark reapers sitting on 1+ saves in cover? Or 0+ with protect on them.
2+ to hit with reroll 1's from autarch + doom - for an entire army to getting Gman buff against any single unit?

It wouldn't hurt eldar one bit if they were forced to use gaurd stratagems. The only big thing they would lose is -1 to hit - but they would gain a lot of offense.

Don't forget that they can just spam the reroll a turn on top of their own strategems too.

So, want to know how much more effective Grenadiers is than FRF,SRF?

If we assume Cadians that are standing still within 6" of their enemy with a full combined Squad of 20 Infantry men, with two sergeants, you get the following for hits:

FRF,SRF
1 Laspistol Shot
72 Lasgun Shots
3.5 Frag Grenade Shots
For 76.5 total.
Hitting 58.33% of the time gives us 44.625 hits, or 2.23 per dude.

Grenadiers with Take Aim
70 Frag Grenade Shots
Hitting 75% of the time gives us 52.5 hits 2.63 per dude.

That's a whopping 18% improvement! Assuming you manage to get 20 T3 5+ dudes within 6" of your enemy.

Of course, if only seven men are out of range and reduced to using Rapid Fire 1 Lasguns, they're suddenly just equal.

Grenadiers WOULD BE a really cool strat for Eldar! They have awesome grenades. But it's not on guard.

Well, if you count Scions and their krak grenades...

Or if you play Cities of Death rules where grenades get 6 shots guaranteed.

That said, it's not really useful outside of those two situations imo.

Dandelion wrote:
Well, if you count Scions and their krak grenades...

Or if you play Cities of Death rules where grenades get 6 shots guaranteed.

That said, it's not really useful outside of those two situations imo.

Yeah, it's not bad on Scions. Although you can't use it out of Deepstrike due to range.

And even against T4 and T5, if the damage doesn't matter but AP does, two shots from Hellguns outperform the Krak grenades.

 JNAProductions wrote:
So, want to know how much more effective Grenadiers is than FRF,SRF?

If we assume Cadians that are standing still within 6" of their enemy with a full combined Squad of 20 Infantry men, with two sergeants, you get the following for hits:

Grenadiers with Take Aim
70 Frag Grenade Shots
Hitting 75% of the time gives us 52.5 hits 2.63 per dude.

That's a whopping 18% improvement! Assuming you manage to get 20 T3 5+ dudes within 6" of your enemy.

Of course, if only seven men are out of range and reduced to using Rapid Fire 1 Lasguns, they're suddenly just equal.

Grenadiers WOULD BE a really cool strat for Eldar! They have awesome grenades. But it's not on guard.

Only 10 models are allowed to use Grenades with Grenadiers Stratagem, that being said, 10 models doing d6 attacks on Overwatch is pretty good compared to 2 attack each (1 for the Sargent).

 JNAProductions wrote:
So, want to know how much more effective Grenadiers is than FRF,SRF?

If we assume Cadians that are standing still within 6" of their enemy with a full combined Squad of 20 Infantry men, with two sergeants, you get the following for hits:

FRF,SRF
1 Laspistol Shot
72 Lasgun Shots
3.5 Frag Grenade Shots
For 76.5 total.
Hitting 58.33% of the time gives us 44.625 hits, or 2.23 per dude.

Grenadiers with Take Aim
70 Frag Grenade Shots
Hitting 75% of the time gives us 52.5 hits 2.63 per dude.

That's a whopping 18% improvement! Assuming you manage to get 20 T3 5+ dudes within 6" of your enemy.

Of course, if only seven men are out of range and reduced to using Rapid Fire 1 Lasguns, they're suddenly just equal.

Grenadiers WOULD BE a really cool strat for Eldar! They have awesome grenades. But it's not on guard.

EDIT: Only 10 models can use grenades with the grenadiers stratagem, so compare a 10 man squad with a 10 man squad.

FRFSRF beats grenadiers any time, and it doesn't cost any command points.

 Xenomancers wrote:
...if eldar had access to guard stratagems It would make eldar even stronger.

But they don't.

Guard having offense increasing stratagems is ok because our guns (outside of artillery and tanks) suck, and our grenades suck too.

w1zard wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
So, want to know how much more effective Grenadiers is than FRF,SRF?

If we assume Cadians that are standing still within 6" of their enemy with a full combined Squad of 20 Infantry men, with two sergeants, you get the following for hits:

FRF,SRF
1 Laspistol Shot
72 Lasgun Shots
3.5 Frag Grenade Shots
For 76.5 total.
Hitting 58.33% of the time gives us 44.625 hits, or 2.23 per dude.

Grenadiers with Take Aim
70 Frag Grenade Shots
Hitting 75% of the time gives us 52.5 hits 2.63 per dude.

That's a whopping 18% improvement! Assuming you manage to get 20 T3 5+ dudes within 6" of your enemy.

Of course, if only seven men are out of range and reduced to using Rapid Fire 1 Lasguns, they're suddenly just equal.

Grenadiers WOULD BE a really cool strat for Eldar! They have awesome grenades. But it's not on guard.

EDIT: Only 10 models can use grenades with the grenadiers stratagem, so compare a 10 man squad with a 10 man squad.

FRFSRF beats grenadiers any time, and it doesn't cost any command points.

 Xenomancers wrote:
...if eldar had access to guard stratagems It would make eldar even stronger.

But they don't.

Guard having offense increasing stratagems is ok because our guns (outside of artillery and tanks) suck.

You already beat stuff in a shootout without NEEDING those offensive strategems.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
You already beat stuff in a shootout without NEEDING those offensive strategems.

Maybe space marines or GK...

Nobody brings guardsmen for their offensive output. They are OP because they soak damage so well.

Grenadiers is amazing on Kriegers and good on scions. Only Krak and above need apply.

10 krieg engineers with 'bring it down', throwing 10 poison gas bombs at a daemon prince, does 8.63 for 1cp. That's a guard infantry unit probably one-shotting a DP right there. They mess up primarchs, riptides, hive tyrants, etc., just the same way.

Yeah, they're not cadians, so they may not count in some people's eyes.

 Kanluwen wrote:

No, we actually have a unit called Heavy Weapon Squads. That's where those weapons should be. The whole concept of the Heavy Weapons Team needs to be revisited.

You do understand that real life infantry platoons carried heavy weapons, right? E.g. a WW2 platoon would have:
- 1 Mortar (usually to create smoke for cover)
- 1x Rocket Launcher (or similar anti-tank weapon)
- 3x Light Machine Gun (to provide covering fire)

And, whilst we do have Heavy Weapon Squads, they're bizarre units with no real equivalent. You see, in real life, an actual heavy gun would have its own dedicated unit who would assemble it, carry ammunition for it, measure ranges for it in advance, defend it and, of course, fire it. Hence why I said that, if anything, Infantry Squads actually seem closer to dedicated heavy-weapon units than the actual heavy weapon squads.

A light mortar was in infantry platoons (from what sources I can find). But it was in the command team not the line squads. And so was the rocket teams (sometimes they had 2). Apparently they were attached from above, such as from the companies mortar section or rocket section as appropriate. Personally to me a mortar does not belong in a unit that - background wise - would be moving a lot. MG's would be appropriate for suppression but not mortars. They don't even do that in modern armed forces. Mortars belong in support elements not maneuver elements.

I think that mortars should not be available in IG squads, but only in command squads and mortar squads. I don't have any gameplay reasons for this only personally how I feel about it. But it would reduced the potential amount of mortars in an IG force.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Uhhh - No? Everyone knows what FRFSRF does. It's really just guard players that underestimate how good it is. Guard can in fact reroll all hits with a squad if they are cadian. This has a surprising similarity to doubling your shots as well when you hit at bs 4+. So my statement is correct - twice.

Again, that requires the 30-pt Company Commander to accompany the squad, or the 20-pt Platoon Commander, not to mention the squad must remain stationary. That's not for 4ppm, stop representing it as such.

Look, I'm done. You and several others just decry Guardsmen without even attempting to be honest about the discussion - it's not worth my time.

Dude even with a 30pts commander the IG squads are more efficient then what marines can field, specially GKs. But by know we know that IG players wouldn't even say that their dudes are too good, if they had a firepower comperable to a dark reaper.

 Larks wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Uhhh - No? Everyone knows what FRFSRF does. It's really just guard players that underestimate how good it is. Guard can in fact reroll all hits with a squad if they are cadian. This has a surprising similarity to doubling your shots as well when you hit at bs 4+. So my statement is correct - twice.

Again, that requires the 30-pt Company Commander to accompany the squad, or the 20-pt Platoon Commander, not to mention the squad must remain stationary. That's not for 4ppm, stop representing it as such.

Look, I'm done. You and several others just decry Guardsmen without even attempting to be honest about the discussion - it's not worth my time.

Again you are required to take them anyways, and no other army has that cheap of options to get their there buffs. SO its not really a negative, its just another positive for IG.

 Amishprn86 wrote:

 Larks wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Uhhh - No? Everyone knows what FRFSRF does. It's really just guard players that underestimate how good it is. Guard can in fact reroll all hits with a squad if they are cadian. This has a surprising similarity to doubling your shots as well when you hit at bs 4+. So my statement is correct - twice.

Again, that requires the 30-pt Company Commander to accompany the squad, or the 20-pt Platoon Commander, not to mention the squad must remain stationary. That's not for 4ppm, stop representing it as such.

Look, I'm done. You and several others just decry Guardsmen without even attempting to be honest about the discussion - it's not worth my time.

Again you are required to take them anyways, and no other army has that cheap of options to get their there buffs. SO its not really a negative, its just another positive for IG.

And what happens when the Rule of 3 goes into effect, making those Commanders tap out at 3?

There's 3 types of models in the army that can issue Orders: Tempestor Primes(locked to Ordering Scions only), Company Commanders, and Platoon Commanders.

Not much, since 3 Company Commanders and 3 Platoon Commanders can put out 9 orders between the 6 of them. And there is always Straken or Creed is you really need more than 9 orders in your army, not to mention relics and warlord traits (joking, since we know everyone takes Grand Strategist).

Really, I think it has been well established that Infantry Squad Guardsman are a bargain for their points. Judged unit to unit against the rest of the line infantry they are as good as or better than anything for the same points. This doesn't really change if you start adding buffing units because they have great, cheap buffers.

GW needs to do a better job of assigned units point values based on some simple rules:
1. Comparable units in other codexes based on both offense and defensively capabilities, including relative wounds per point (is a Space Marine really worth 3 Guardsman?)
2. The direct benefits a unit provides to other units in the army (Given the power of orders, is a Company Commander really worth only 30 points?)
3. The relative value of comparable units within the codex (Are Devastators, even without heavy weapons, really worth the same points as Tactical Marines given the Signum?)
4. The value of MSU versus Large Squads (Generally speaking 2 squads of 5 are better than one squad of 10 given the Squad Leader is free and Morale has less impact on Small Units)

 grouchoben wrote:
Grenadiers is amazing on Kriegers and good on scions. Only Krak and above need apply.

10 krieg engineers with 'bring it down', throwing 10 poison gas bombs at a daemon prince, does 8.63 for 1cp. That's a guard infantry unit probably one-shotting a DP right there. They mess up primarchs, riptides, hive tyrants, etc., just the same way.

Yeah, they're not cadians, so they may not count in some people's eyes.

Cadian is great - it - depends on your army build though. Catachans/ Cadians are both competitive options. I don't know DKK enough to judge - What is their special rule?

 Xenomancers wrote:

 grouchoben wrote:
Grenadiers is amazing on Kriegers and good on scions. Only Krak and above need apply.

10 krieg engineers with 'bring it down', throwing 10 poison gas bombs at a daemon prince, does 8.63 for 1cp. That's a guard infantry unit probably one-shotting a DP right there. They mess up primarchs, riptides, hive tyrants, etc., just the same way.

Yeah, they're not cadians, so they may not count in some people's eyes.

Cadian is great - it - depends on your army build though. Catachans/ Cadians are both competitive options. I don't know DKK enough to judge - What is their special rule?

DKK has the cult of sacrifice special rule, it lets them ignore casualties taken in the shooting phase when taking moral tests. They get access to a bunch of exclusive units but in return lose access to a bunch of the codex stuff, they also get some weapon options codex guard doesn't. Other notable thing is they lose access to FRFSRF but gain 2 krieg exclusive orders in reutrn "Without Mercy!" which turns all lasguns and hotshot lasguns in the unit into pistol 2 and "Duty Unto Death!" which lets any Infantry or Cavalry model in the unit make a last attack if it's slain in the fight phase.

 alextroy wrote:
Not much, since 3 Company Commanders and 3 Platoon Commanders can put out 9 orders between the 6 of them. And there is always Straken or Creed is you really need more than 9 orders in your army, not to mention relics and warlord traits (joking, since we know everyone takes Grand Strategist).

The point. You missed it.

If the 'Rule of 3' goes through, there becomes an effective cap as to how many units can be boosted by an army's special rules. Auras don't have that same cap, instead it's affected by things like placement.

Really, I think it has been well established that Infantry Squad Guardsman are a bargain for their points. Judged unit to unit against the rest of the line infantry they are as good as or better than anything for the same points. This doesn't really change if you start adding buffing units because they have great, cheap buffers.

Blame the knuckleheads who think Guard need to be bargain bin infantry then.

GW needs to do a better job of assigned units point values based on some simple rules:
1. Comparable units in other codexes based on both offense and defensively capabilities, including relative wounds per point (is a Space Marine really worth 3 Guardsman?)
2. The direct benefits a unit provides to other units in the army (Given the power of orders, is a Company Commander really worth only 30 points?)
3. The relative value of comparable units within the codex (Are Devastators, even without heavy weapons, really worth the same points as Tactical Marines given the Signum?)
4. The value of MSU versus Large Squads (Generally speaking 2 squads of 5 are better than one squad of 10 given the Squad Leader is free and Morale has less impact on Small Units)

#4 directly conflicts with "comparable units in other codices". Guard can't start at smaller numbers, nor can most of the things with <Regiment>. You're basically always at the starting numbers.

You can take models enough to hand out 12 infantry orders a turn, without dipping into Elysian, Scion or Krieg commanders.

... Is that really a line in the sand for you? How many should you be able to hand out exactly? How often is this constraint going to figure in any game? Who has ever bumped their head on it? Why the baseline assumption that there shouldn't be an upper limit on number of orders in a 2k army? Why are you pointing to it as a problem? Honest questions.

 grouchoben wrote:
You can take models enough to hand out 12 infantry orders a turn, without dipping into Elysian, Scion or Krieg commanders.

3 Platoon Commanders=3 Orders.
3 Company Commanders=6 Orders.

9 != 12.
There are some conditionals for if you want more Orders, you can burn a Stratagem("Inspired Tactics") or if you're Cadian you can take "Superior Tactical Training"(roll a D6 each time you issue an Order, on a 4+ you get to apply the Order to the same type of unit [Infantry or Tank]).

There's also two reliable ways: the "Master of Command" Warlord Trait, bumping you up to 10 Orders instead of 9. Cadians can also take Colour Sergeant Kell, granting you an additional Order with a Cadian Officer--so Cadians are the only ones that can get 11 Orders reliably

Krieg and Elysian Commanders can only give Orders to Krieg and Elysian units, same with Scions.
You understand that, right?

... Is that really a line in the sand for you? How many should you be able to hand out exactly? How often is this constraint going to figure in any game? Who has ever bumped their head on it? Why are you pointing to it as a problem? Honest questions.

Why do you think it isn't a problem for you to be able to buff up all your infantry?

 Kanluwen wrote:

Why do you think it isn't a problem for you to be able to buff up all your infantry?

Usually 'cause some of them die pretty quick so you're better of having redundant squads as opposed to redundant officers. So if for example you bring 9 orders for 9 infantry squads, and then 4 squads die, you now have 4 orders too many which is a waste of points.
On the flip side, if I bring 20 squads (mix of infantry and HWT we'll say), I can only buff half of them but the other half still do pretty well on their own. And by the time I dip below 9 squads I've likely lost some officers along the way.

 Kanluwen wrote:

Why do you think it isn't a problem for you to be able to buff up all your infantry?

Why that a problem when guard can do it but not a problem when marines or some other factions can do it via aura's instead? Every army has way's of buffing their unit's Guard just differ's in that their primary way of doing so is single buffs to a unit rather than an AOE radius around a character that buffs everything that stands in it.

Karol wrote:
Dude even with a 30pts commander the IG squads are more efficient then what marines can field, specially GKs. But by know we know that IG players wouldn't even say that their dudes are too good, if they had a firepower comperable to a dark reaper.

Stop comparing IG to marines or GK.

Marines and GK are both horribly underpowered (dumpster fire levels) this edition and should not be used as a measuring stick for balance until they receive huge buffs. We should be comparing guard to middle of the road codices like tau and tyranids if we want to achieve good balance.

Kanluwen wrote:If the 'Rule of 3' goes through, there becomes an effective cap as to how many units can be boosted by an army's special rules. Auras don't have that same cap, instead it's affected by things like placement.

The Rule of 3 is not a Beta Rule that needs to go through. It is an Errata to the Organized Play Rules. You treat it as here to stay.

 alextroy wrote:

GW needs to do a better job of assigned units point values based on some simple rules:
1. Comparable units in other codexes based on both offense and defensively capabilities, including relative wounds per point (is a Space Marine really worth 3 Guardsman?)
2. The direct benefits a unit provides to other units in the army (Given the power of orders, is a Company Commander really worth only 30 points?)
3. The relative value of comparable units within the codex (Are Devastators, even without heavy weapons, really worth the same points as Tactical Marines given the Signum?)
4. The value of MSU versus Large Squads (Generally speaking 2 squads of 5 are better than one squad of 10 given the Squad Leader is free and Morale has less impact on Small Units)

#4 directly conflicts with "comparable units in other codices". Guard can't start at smaller numbers, nor can most of the things with <Regiment>. You're basically always at the starting numbers.

You are totally missing the point of what I wrote for #4.

Currently, a squad of 5 Tactical Marines (1 Sgt & 4 Space Marines) cost 65 points. A squad of 10 Tactical Marines (1 Sgt & 9 Space Marines) cost 130 points, exactly twice that of the 5 Man Squad. That means for the same points as a 10-Model Tactical Marine Squad you can get two 5-Model Squads with two Sgts. This cost you nothing more than a FOC Slot. Why would you not do this? It's not like you miss out on upgradable models (Special/Heavy Weapon members) when you do this. There are actually many units that you actually gain upgrade models by doing two squads.

Therefore, one of the two squad choices has the wrong point value assigned to it. Either the 5-Man Squad is undervalued or the 10-Man Squad of overvalued.

gbghg wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

Why do you think it isn't a problem for you to be able to buff up all your infantry?

Why that a problem when guard can do it but not a problem when marines or some other factions can do it via aura's instead? Every army has way's of buffing their unit's Guard just differ's in that their primary way of doing so is single buffs to a unit rather than an AOE radius around a character that buffs everything that stands in it.

While Guard do a have limit in how many Orders a model can give, they gain from that in flexibility. Yes, a Space Marine Captain can give every unit within 6" Reroll 1's to Hit all the time, but he can't give them 5 other options depending upon what is the most useful. No Extra move, no fight in the Shooting Phase, no Reroll 1's to Wound, no Shoot after Falling Back.

 alextroy wrote:
While Guard do a have limit in how many Orders a model can give, they gain from that in flexibility. Yes, a Space Marine Captain can give every unit within 6" Reroll 1's to Hit all the time, but he can't give them 5 other options depending upon what is the most useful. No Extra move, no fight in the Shooting Phase, no Reroll 1's to Wound, no Shoot after Falling Back.

True, but a space marine captain is actually a somewhat dangerous combatant. Unless you are giving guard officers powerfists (and most of the time even then) they die ALMOST as fast as a standard guardsman and don't really accomplish much outside of buffing. Buying a guard officer is like buying a changeable buff for two of your units attached to 3 T3 wounds at a 5++.

And one Officer can only give one unit one of those perks, provided he's within 12" or you've parked him within 3" of a unit upgraded with a Vox-Caster and the other unit has a Vox-Caster and is within 18".

You act like "reroll 1s to hit" for both combat and shooting isn't a big deal.
Lieutenants do the same benefit, just for wound rolls instead.

Important question: Is this proposed rule geared for casual or tournament play?

 Kanluwen wrote:
And one Officer can only give one unit one of those perks, provided he's within 12" or you've parked him within 3" of a unit upgraded with a Vox-Caster and the other unit has a Vox-Caster and is within 18".

You act like "reroll 1s to hit" for both combat and shooting isn't a big deal.
Lieutenants do the same benefit, just for wound rolls instead.

Orders are actually 6" not 12", same as auras.