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I've played both Death Guard and Tau. I only played a couple of games with DG and they seem really good (that flail...) and Tau seem really damn good. The rail rifle in the hands of a sniper specialist, backed up by a comms specialist reliably kills 1-2 enemies a turn from across the whole table, and is hard to reach with a couple of shotgun breathers and some drones and stealth suits in the way who also seem useful and pokey.

Not to necro the thread but I'm curious to know your opinions on the best teams so far ? I still believe AdMech may be top tier, I'm having 12 victories for 15 matches so far.

 Aaranis wrote:
Not to necro the thread but I'm curious to know your opinions on the best teams so far ? I still believe AdMech may be top tier, I'm having 12 victories for 15 matches so far.

Care to share your list?

It varies depending on the mission, but for example my average list against T4/MEQ will be:

Vanguard Alpha, radium carbine - Leader
Ranger Gunner, transuranic arquebus - Sniper
Ranger, galvanic rifle & omnispex - Comms
Infiltrator Princeps, power sword & stubber - Zealot

Infiltrator, power sword & stubber
Infiltrator, power sword & stubber
Vanguard Gunner, arc rifle
Vanguard Gunner, arc rifle

If I'm facing T3/GEQ/hordes I'd trade the arc rifles for radium carbines, and switch the Infiltrators' gear for taser & flechette blasters instead. Really it depends on the mission, I have a full command roster to chose from.

And how do you defeat Harlequins who will never get shot at?

 DarknessEternal wrote:
And how do you defeat Harlequins who will never get shot at?

My first game was against Harlequins and it was painful for my opponent as everything just died instantly when I looked at it, while he managed to kill two models. Granted it doesn't represent all Harlequins games ever but I was hardly impressed.

I'll just shoot them anyway because they can't hide 8 models every time and I'll just wait for them to come.

He wasn't playing very well then. 8 models means they were armed stupidly. And yes, not only can they hide their entire team, but also charge you from that hiding such that you'll never even get to shoot at them on overwatch, let alone in the shooting phase.

If a Harlequin team ever gets shot at, they've made a huge mistake, as it's brain dead easy for them to avoid that.

Then we will see how at the first tournament Harlies will take at least place 1 to 3? Would you bet on that? I'm not convinced.

Try and describe a scenario where in Harlequins are trying to win and they still allow themselves to be shot at.

 DarknessEternal wrote:
Try and describe a scenario where in Harlequins are trying to win and they still allow themselves to be shot at.

When there is little to no LoS breaking cover?

So a situation that the rulebook completely discourages?

That is not valid.

I think Harlequins can be strong in the right circumstances, but I am not sure they are the end-all, be-all. You still have other CC units, mission objectives, tactics to deal with, etc. As a small elite force they can still be overwhelmed by hordes, esp CC hordes. And you are still dealing with T3 4++ saves. You get caught out in just the wrong spot and Harle's go down fast. And there are still better CC units out there they could run into with tactics (Decisive strike) that can let them go first, even if charged. Last but not least, you have the always fickle dice gods.

All that said, one of the guys in our upcoming campaign is looking at playing Harles. I am interested to see how they work out.

 DarknessEternal wrote:
Try and describe a scenario where in Harlequins are trying to win and they still allow themselves to be shot at.

Tau have missle pods which can target without LOS. I thought there was also another tactic floating around that allowed another army to shoot at something they could not see. I will see if I can locate it again. You are also relying on a lot of LOS blocking terrain in just the right areas.

 Mordekiem wrote:

Tau have missle pods which can target without LOS. I thought there was also another tactic floating around that allowed another army to shoot at something they could not see. I will see if I can locate it again. You are also relying on a lot of LOS blocking terrain in just the right areas.

Well, Tau have missile pod (just the 1, and it requires a specific living fire warrior next to it, and it still only hits on a 6), but this is still valid.

Also, they do not need a lot of LoS blocking terrain. Two pieces of terrain that can hide 3 guys is enough to keep them from getting shot for the entirety of the game. And the locations of those terrains hardly matter, as their speed will allow them to hide half their team on turn 1, and half their team prior to turn 1.

Also, I'm playing devil's advocate here. I know of ways to fight Harlequins, but I'm trying to find more because fighting them isn't the same as beating them. "Shoot them" is simply not an option though. Something has gone catastrophically wrong in the brain of a Harlequin player to allow that to ever happen.

We found the mission can really change the game for some of the better teams.
When you have harlequins that only have six guys and need to cover five objectives.
Things go south fast...

For harlies - yep, the mission can really hurt. We had a "hold point each turn" mission, and whilst their saves kept them up far longer than they should, to get any VP, they had to stand on the locations, which meant that the opposing teams could move into a firing line. And really, it can be hard to hide the entirety of the miniature, especially if the harlies move first.

Yep, they are good, but they are not definitive winners - the three games I've seen them play, they lost to Ad Mech, won to Necron, and lost to Tau.

hvg3akaek wrote:
And really, it can be hard to hide the entirety of the miniature, .

Which isn't necessary in Kill Team.

 DarknessEternal wrote:
So a situation that the rulebook completely discourages?

That is not valid.

Half the boards I've played on don't have quite enough. I'm all for more terrain personally, so thank you for getting me look up the suggestions in the rule book regarding terrain. I've had opponents who'd rather play gunline simulator complain when i wanted more LoS blocking terrain.

 DarknessEternal wrote:

hvg3akaek wrote:
And really, it can be hard to hide the entirety of the miniature, .

Which isn't necessary in Kill Team.

For obscurity, sure.

For being a target of a shot? It is.

Don't worry - we mucked it up initially, too. Basically, there are two different categories of "what you can see". When working out obscurity (pg 30, "obscured"), you only consider the main body. if any of the main body is blocked, they are obscured, and the shooter takes a -1 penalty.

However, when testing to see if a model is a valid target (pg 28, "range and visibility"), all is needed is to be able to see any part of the target.

Thus - whilst it's really easy to be "obscured", it's quite difficult to be completely blocked by scenery.

The new Death World Forest Kill Zone terrain is interesting as I think it won't provide *any* complete LOS blocking, though it will be trivial and common to have Obscured.

I can see that being very difficult for Harlequins to deal with, as they ideally want to charge from completely out of LOS and range in order to prevent Overwatch, but may not be able to do so with such terrain.

The 4++ is good but fail just one injury roll and the game just got exponentially harder to win IMHO.

 Aaranis wrote:
It varies depending on the mission, but for example my average list against T4/MEQ will be:

Vanguard Alpha, radium carbine - Leader
Ranger Gunner, transuranic arquebus - Sniper
Ranger, galvanic rifle & omnispex - Comms
Infiltrator Princeps, power sword & stubber - Zealot

Infiltrator, power sword & stubber
Infiltrator, power sword & stubber
Vanguard Gunner, arc rifle
Vanguard Gunner, arc rifle

If I'm facing T3/GEQ/hordes I'd trade the arc rifles for radium carbines, and switch the Infiltrators' gear for taser & flechette blasters instead. Really it depends on the mission, I have a full command roster to chose from.

No plasma against MEQ? Interesting.

I think Harlequins are good and when played well can be devastating. However while they're easier to obscure than some armies, there is VERY LITTLE official GW terrain that completely blocks line of sight. They die to a stiff breeze and with the amounts of shots AdMech can make they'll be out of action or wounded faster than you think. They're the mascots of the Glass Cannon corporation.

And no one ever has all perfect conditions from the start, there's a few deployments that I can think of that will make half the team get shot at, and quite a lot of missions that requires objectives to be controlled, meaning a lot of missions that will see your Players standing there.

I'm not saying my army is unbeatable and Harlequins are terrible, but it's a difficult army to play and you require more luck than other armies to not get slaughtered.

 Weazel wrote:

 Aaranis wrote:
It varies depending on the mission, but for example my average list against T4/MEQ will be:

Vanguard Alpha, radium carbine - Leader
Ranger Gunner, transuranic arquebus - Sniper
Ranger, galvanic rifle & omnispex - Comms
Infiltrator Princeps, power sword & stubber - Zealot

Infiltrator, power sword & stubber
Infiltrator, power sword & stubber
Vanguard Gunner, arc rifle
Vanguard Gunner, arc rifle

If I'm facing T3/GEQ/hordes I'd trade the arc rifles for radium carbines, and switch the Infiltrators' gear for taser & flechette blasters instead. Really it depends on the mission, I have a full command roster to chose from.

No plasma against MEQ? Interesting.

I haven't tried it yet although I'm planning to do so. It's just that I have built a roster without one for a campaign and so haven't had the chance yet, maybe when I'll play a pickup game someday. But I'm quite fond of the Arquebus, too.

 Aaranis wrote:
there is VERY LITTLE official GW terrain that completely blocks line of sight. .

That's pure imagination. Nearly all the terrain that comes with any Kill Team box completely blocks LoS. Look at any of the pictures in the rule book.

 DarknessEternal wrote:

 Aaranis wrote:
there is VERY LITTLE official GW terrain that completely blocks line of sight. .

That's pure imagination. Nearly all the terrain that comes with any Kill Team box completely blocks LoS. Look at any of the pictures in the rule book.

Umm...do you actually own that terrain? I mean the corners block LOS but for the most part the rest of the terrain is full of gaps and holes. The corners could block LOS fairly well from the correct orientation but that is about it.

I have to be honest here, you are literally the only person claiming Harlequins are "OMG Over powered!" and it makes me wonder how many games you have really played against or with them.

 DarknessEternal wrote:
Nearly all the terrain that comes with any Kill Team box completely blocks LoS. Look at any of the pictures in the rule book.

That's just flat out false.
The terrain in the starter box is full of holes. Out of the 8-9 pieces that come in the box, only two can really block LoS. I'm not looking at pictures. I have the models right in front of me and have used them in game.
The munitorium and sector mechanicus are a little better with some solid hard cover, but absolutely have pieces that can't completely block Los.
The new terrain for Drukhari and Deathwatch have almost no angles where they can block LoS.

Kelbesq wrote:

 DarknessEternal wrote:
Nearly all the terrain that comes with any Kill Team box completely blocks LoS. Look at any of the pictures in the rule book.

That's just flat out false.
The terrain in the starter box is full of holes. Out of the 8-9 pieces that come in the box, only two can really block LoS. I'm not looking at pictures. I have the models right in front of me and have used them in game.
The munitorium and sector mechanicus are a little better with some solid hard cover, but absolutely have pieces that can't completely block Los.
The new terrain for Drukhari and Deathwatch have almost no angles where they can block LoS.

Two? There's six alone in that.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 vonjankmon wrote:

I have to be honest here, you are literally the only person claiming Harlequins are "OMG Over powered!" and it makes me wonder how many games you have really played against or with them.

Dozens. It makes me wonder if anyone else on this forum has played against Harlequins that are actually trying to win.

Share your harlequin kill team please!

 DarknessEternal wrote:
Two? There's six alone in that.

Have you actually played with those? Only the two large pieces have solid walls. Everything else has holes in it, and the solid wall height on the smaller pieces isn't tall enough. In practice, the 6-7 ruins pieces have a slight chance if you line it up perfectly to use the corner/columns for a single unit from 1 angle. None of this "fitting half of your army on turn 1" business. Believe me I've tried. Someone, somewhere can see you if you opponent has half a brain. Even taking this picture as an example, if you end up on the near side of the board during deployment, you are going to have an uphill battle time with a melee army.

Admittedly, the terrain in the Kill Team box can be put together numerous ways. And some ways provide better cover than other builds from certain angles. But 100% cover 100% of the time?

But what I'd like to see is pictures of boards where DarknessEternal is getting 100% cover 100% of the time. I'm guessing your boards do not look like most other people's boards. And certainly do not look like the ones shown in the KT book.

The very first game I played to learn Kill Team was with 7 harlequins against Tyranids. He only got to fire roughly half his termagants before I was wiped out XD

Granted, now that I know how to play I'd probably do a lot better. But on here and on 4chan harlequin kill teams always seem to be very polarizing so I'm curious how others play them. Never getting shot at sounds like a winning strat to me.

I've only ever played horde autogun cultists since then and have had great results against nids and GSC. Turns out cultist spam works just as well in KT as it does in 40k

I think Harlequins are absolutely top tier, and I'm saying that the day after completely flattening a Harlequin team. I was terrified, just assuming I would get locked in combat and flattened. My opponent had TERRIBLE dice, and it went south fast for her. They suffer from bad luck, all small model count, elite armies do. Still, I think 2 or 3 rolls turn and she crushes me.