Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Nevermind they also have easy access to rerolls.
Something of which orks lack almost completely, save for Badrukk and now a couple klan rules get minor rerolls (reroll 1s when we hit on 5s is pretty minor but given the weight of dice still going to be noticable, while even the 3+ marines just get flat reroll misses)

im still baffled they gave such an awesome rule to the orks...im so used to us getting uber shafted...

fe40k wrote:

But on the other hand, Orks will never suffer more than a 50% loss of firepower ever, while guard and tau can easily lose 66% and marines with some prodding can lose 75% firepower. (assuming always hits on 6s)

Yes, but using Orks BS5+ as the baseline; Space Marines start at 200% firepower, and Guard/Tau start at 150% firepower - never minding that all those armies have a plethora of easy ways to get a +1 to-hit (Devastator Captain, Overlapping Fields of Fire/Searchlight, Markerlights; etc). Also, -1 is an extremely common baseline; whereas -2/3/4 are much harder, and require more combinations to get.

So while Orks can lose "the least", they're also the easiest to reduce, in addition to having zero ways to regain lost shooting potential.

Well, when a space marine costs more than twice that of an ork, I would say double firepower isn't even fair to marines.
Let's try to quantify these percentages a bit using EQUAL points of units:
Normal rolls:
- 30 ork boyz hit 23 times with S4 up to 18"
- 14 marines hit 18 times with S4 up to 12"
- 26 tau hit 26 times with S5 up to 15"

With -1 to hit:
- 30 orks hit 13 times
- 14 marines hit 14 times
- 26 tau hit 17 times

Now, the dreaded -2 to hit:
- 30 orks hit... 13 times
- 14 marines hit 9 times
- 26 tau hit 8 times

So I'm going to say you're blowing this way out of proportion.

This whole logic falls apart when you apply it to one shot ork weapons (rokkits) and multishot imperial weapons (punisher cannons). So tell me, which has the greatest chance of getting lucky and hitting at least once?
You see, if we apply the 6s always hit to a big shoota and a sniper rifle, the big shoota is still 3 times as likely to hit at least once compared to the sniper rifle because it gets 3 attacks. But the sniper rifle still has a chance to get lucky. it's just that it gets fewer opportunities to get that chance.
Also, Tau Sniper Drones start at BS 5+ and need babysitters to get to BS 4+. They can feasibly get knocked down to BS 7+.

Meanwhile, "Getting Lucky" is NOT the counter to mathhammer. It's very easy to calculate expected outcomes. and if you're trying to say that Imperial shooting is weaker, well...

It's EXACTLY the reason that DakkaDakkaDakka will be overvalued by GW, leading to Ork shooting being sub-par in the codex - "Look at this army wide buff we gave them! All they have to do is roll 6's, and they get double firepower, for FREE!".

Curious what the board game will be like. Over the past couple of years they've made some pretty decent stuff (B@C, DWOK, Execution Force) and some less impressive (Prospero, Gangs of Commoragh).

Dandelion wrote:

Spoiler:

fe40k wrote:

But on the other hand, Orks will never suffer more than a 50% loss of firepower ever, while guard and tau can easily lose 66% and marines with some prodding can lose 75% firepower. (assuming always hits on 6s)

Yes, but using Orks BS5+ as the baseline; Space Marines start at 200% firepower, and Guard/Tau start at 150% firepower - never minding that all those armies have a plethora of easy ways to get a +1 to-hit (Devastator Captain, Overlapping Fields of Fire/Searchlight, Markerlights; etc). Also, -1 is an extremely common baseline; whereas -2/3/4 are much harder, and require more combinations to get.

So while Orks can lose "the least", they're also the easiest to reduce, in addition to having zero ways to regain lost shooting potential.

Well, when a space marine costs more than twice that of an ork, I would say double firepower isn't even fair to marines.
Let's try to quantify these percentages a bit using EQUAL points of units:
Normal rolls:
- 30 ork boyz hit 23 times with S4 up to 18"
- 14 marines hit 18 times with S4 up to 12"
- 26 tau hit 26 times with S5 up to 15"

With -1 to hit:
- 30 orks hit 13 times
- 14 marines hit 14 times
- 26 tau hit 17 times

Now, the dreaded -2 to hit:
- 30 orks hit... 13 times
- 14 marines hit 9 times
- 26 tau hit 8 times

So I'm going to say you're blowing this way out of proportion.

This whole logic falls apart when you apply it to one shot ork weapons (rokkits) and multishot imperial weapons (punisher cannons). So tell me, which has the greatest chance of getting lucky and hitting at least once?
You see, if we apply the 6s always hit to a big shoota and a sniper rifle, the big shoota is still 3 times as likely to hit at least once compared to the sniper rifle because it gets 3 attacks. But the sniper rifle still has a chance to get lucky. it's just that it gets fewer opportunities to get that chance.
Also, Tau Sniper Drones start at BS 5+ and need babysitters to get to BS 4+. They can feasibly get knocked down to BS 7+.

Meanwhile, "Getting Lucky" is NOT the counter to mathhammer. It's very easy to calculate expected outcomes. and if you're trying to say that Imperial shooting is weaker, well...

It's EXACTLY the reason that DakkaDakkaDakka will be overvalued by GW, leading to Ork shooting being sub-par in the codex - "Look at this army wide buff we gave them! All they have to do is roll 6's, and they get double firepower, for FREE!".

And yet you did not even do the math to see how orks fare compared to equal points of other models... see above.

This whole retort shows that you didn't understand my point. Please try to follow the context of the conversation.
- There will always be a lucky shot from anybody be it marine, tau or ork.
- having 6s always hit represents that model "getting lucky". Much like how there is no guaranteed hit, there is no guaranteed miss.

Now, if you had bothered to understand the context, the other poster was saying only orks should hit on 6s because they spray and pray while "snipers" take careful shots while completely ignoring imperial units that choke the air with bullets. So I ask again: why should a rokkit get 6s always hit due to spray and pray but not a punisher cannon?

Your second point is pure speculation based on marketing, and you misquoted the marketing to make it seem more over the top than it was... so it's baseless.

I'd be happy with a "no stacking from the same army" rule

so those space elves can have their -1 to hit from save camo cloaks or whatever, they cannot stack a further -1 on here for -2, if they have anything that gives -2 they can use that instead.

someone on the other side say moving a heavy weapon or advancing can also incur a further -1, which again won't stack with anything else they do (say a psi power they are suffering from)

both players army stuff stacks, say to -2 as a usual maximum, but neither player can easily inflict it upon the other without the others cooperation.

personally if the game is going to have to hit negative modifiers (an idea I like), it should also have positive to hit modifiers - say standing still being a +1, larger targets being +1 or maybe even +2 - heavier "anti tank" weapons can then have a base -2 or maybe -3 to hit even, rendering elite infantry largely safe from them, but actual armoured vehicles in danger

To me the big issue with the negative to hit modifiers are just the army wide traits. If those were removed from the game (which I'm still hoping for) I'd essentially be fine with the system.

Some units are latently difficult to shoot? Fine, no issue there. You have a relic/psychic power that makes units difficult to shoot? Okay.
Even if you can combine the two I'm still okay with it but as an army wide rule it's just too darn good. It's basically auto-take.

PiñaColada wrote:
To me the big issue with the negative to hit modifiers are just the army wide traits. If those were removed from the game (which I'm still hoping for) I'd essentially be fine with the system.

Some units are latently difficult to shoot? Fine, no issue there. You have a relic/psychic power that makes units difficult to shoot? Okay.
Even if you can combine the two I'm still okay with it but as an army wide rule it's just too darn good. It's basically auto-take.

Exactly. Those army-wide negs to hit are absolutely bad for the game because they throw all internal balance out of the window.

Craftworld players, if they want to be competitive at least, are forced to take Alaitoc. Any faction that has the ability under almost any circumstance will always take it, it's poor design.

Words from the youtube channel French Wargame Studio (which has been quite a reliable source of rumors this year) is that boys will now be based in 32mm.

I really can't face the idea to rebase my hundreds of boys ... I hope he is wrong on this one.

 JeffVimes wrote:
Words from the youtube channel French Wargame Studio (which has been quite a reliable source of rumors this year) is that boys will now be based in 32mm.

I really can't face the idea to rebase my hundreds of boys ... I hope he is wrong on this one.

I wouldn't worry too much, GW have always stated that we can use the bases the kit came with when purchased with so I'll be keeping mine on their current bases.

Same with my bikes, I'll not be rebasing them on the larger oval ones, even if that's what's provided from GW from now on.

I know I'm in the crazy minority here, but since I'm not using too many boyz I've already put mine on 32's. It just looks so much better. I understand why green tide players don't want this but for me it's just an aesthetic choice.

Ignoring the difference in how green tide would play out on the table, aren't there base extenders you can buy for pretty cheap instead of literally rebasing?

well, if we have to rebase for tournaments, look at the bright side, if other things in the codex are good then we might not have to rebase 100 boys for tourneys (just rebase what you need).

of course there is no bright side for greentide only players...muwahahauhauhauafidsdblshdbf

Dandelion wrote:
But on the other hand, Orks will never suffer more than a 50% loss of firepower ever, while guard and tau can easily lose 66% and marines with some prodding can lose 75% firepower. (assuming always hits on 6s)

As explained above, anything above -2 to hit is incredibly rare and can only be done on very few units in the first place and is usually limited to one or two on the entire battlefield or even to once per battle.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 aracersss wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

It is nowhere near as powerful as the ability to cancel a stratagem.

what has the ability to cancel a stratagem?

Edit 1: ... got the answer it's a 3CP strat for DE called agents of vect

It's basically the worst thing ever for all players that have never played MtG

GW can rebase new boxes all they want. My models will stay with 25mm. If somebody gets headache from it that's too bad for him/her. Though I offer him that I'll rebase if a) he pays all the new bases b) he does all the rebasing(without any damage whatsoever to models) c) he buys new movement trays.

All told I expect that to be few hundred's euros and tons of time. But if somebody is really willing to do all that then guess I can consider just for laughs.

 Jidmah wrote:

Dandelion wrote:
But on the other hand, Orks will never suffer more than a 50% loss of firepower ever, while guard and tau can easily lose 66% and marines with some prodding can lose 75% firepower. (assuming always hits on 6s)

As explained above, anything above -2 to hit is incredibly rare and can only be done on very few units in the first place and is usually limited to one or two on the entire battlefield or even to once per battle.

-2 is quite common though. If you advance with an assault weapon and shoot at raven guard or whatever their equivalents are, that's an easily attained -2 right there. Orks tend to have assault weapons.
Its most likely why they have that natural roll of a 6 will hit clause; otherwise Orks would never be able to advance against the likes of raven guard an what not, as they'd be hitting on 7+.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:

Dandelion wrote:
But on the other hand, Orks will never suffer more than a 50% loss of firepower ever, while guard and tau can easily lose 66% and marines with some prodding can lose 75% firepower. (assuming always hits on 6s)

As explained above, anything above -2 to hit is incredibly rare and can only be done on very few units in the first place and is usually limited to one or two on the entire battlefield or even to once per battle.

-2 is quite common though. If you advance with an assault weapon and shoot at raven guard or whatever their equivalents are, that's an easily attained -2 right there. Orks tend to have assault weapons.
Its most likely why they have that natural roll of a 6 will hit clause; otherwise Orks would never be able to advance against the likes of raven guard an what not, as they'd be hitting on 7+.

I think what he is saying, is that a natural -2 to hit is not very common at all. And, even a self imposed negative (like advancing and shooting or moving a heavy weapon) is only really getting to -2 when you are playing vs Alaitoc or Raven Guard, or shooting a flyer. Vs the other 98% of armies and factions, you'll only ever get to a -1.

I'm interested in the rules for the Speed Freeks game, especially the movement rules. A friend has a large Ork army, I have a lot of Elysian Drop Troops and quite a sew Space Marine bikes and Land Speeders; lifting the movement rules from this game might be a good way to re-do the "rolling road" scenario, an example of which is in Imperial Armour vol 8.

 JimOnMars wrote:
If there is less than 8.33% percent chance of hitting anything, it rounds to 0 on a D6. [...] If it is closer to zero than 1, it's a zero.

Hello, let me introduce you to this wonderful concept known as... REROLLS! Have you ever heard of them? They can make things easier or harder while still using D6.

Kdash wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:

Dandelion wrote:
But on the other hand, Orks will never suffer more than a 50% loss of firepower ever, while guard and tau can easily lose 66% and marines with some prodding can lose 75% firepower. (assuming always hits on 6s)

As explained above, anything above -2 to hit is incredibly rare and can only be done on very few units in the first place and is usually limited to one or two on the entire battlefield or even to once per battle.

-2 is quite common though. If you advance with an assault weapon and shoot at raven guard or whatever their equivalents are, that's an easily attained -2 right there. Orks tend to have assault weapons.
Its most likely why they have that natural roll of a 6 will hit clause; otherwise Orks would never be able to advance against the likes of raven guard an what not, as they'd be hitting on 7+.

I think what he is saying, is that a natural -2 to hit is not very common at all. And, even a self imposed negative (like advancing and shooting or moving a heavy weapon) is only really getting to -2 when you are playing vs Alaitoc or Raven Guard, or shooting a flyer. Vs the other 98% of armies and factions, you'll only ever get to a -1.

Yes. that would be the extension of what I said. Allaitoc eldar can have a large amount of -2 to hit models by combining their trait with either innate -1, stratagem, relics and psychic powers. The can have TWO units at maximum with -3 (one of them flyer or infantry, one bike or infantry) - or - ONE infantry or jetbike unit with -4.

Ravenguard has their trait limited to only infantry, bikes and dreads, so the worst that can happen is a dread popping smoke and forgoing its shooting phase once per game for -2. Dark Angel players fielding darkshrouds are more likely to have multiple -2 hit units than ravenguard.

Alpha legion is even less of a problem, since hellbrutes don't get smokes, the worst thing that can happen is a sorcerer casting Miasma of Pestilence on a unit marked by nurgle. All good things tend to have marks of slanesh though.

I honestly have never meta an AdMech player using their -1 to hit faction, for whatever that is worth.

Most other armies either have single units that can reach -2 (for example, the ghostkeel) to hit or can archive it on very few units by combining a psychic powers with hard to hit from a plane, a relic on a character or some -1 aura. Outside of characters with relics -3 to hits is almost non-existent unless you help by moving heavy weapons/advancing assault weapons.

What's left is some weapons and powers that can debuff a single one of your units with -1 to hit. In that case, you can simply opt to not shoot that unit at something that already has -1 to hit modifiers, just like you don't shoot moving tanks at planes.

If someone is worried about rebasing to 32mm, they should check this out:

http://eccentricminiatures.com/adapterrings.html

I used them for my marines and they look good even if you don't paint them. Cheaper than new bases as well.

Sorry, murky lurker here just stopping in for a quick question.
Speed Freeks looks great, as someone who doesn't have time for the big games anymore I am very interested, just wanted to know if the desert boards are included?
It looks like a contents pic so I guess so but you never know.
Cheers

so the speedfreeks game seems to come with its own unique dice, they seem to be held behind a screen in 3 different categories.
i imagin a player plans their turn ahead, rolling the dice to see what their options are and then assign those to 3 different attributes, like speed/attack/maneuverability etc. then the player will at some point reveal what they have planned, like one chooses to atk and then the other reveals what their defense was the whole time.

also there is what looks like a unique ruler that help plots your course for you buggies/bikes, though i imagine the bikes are better at maneuvers then a buggie.

terrain is also present so i guess there are rules for interacting with terrain (not so much getting cover but using it for ramps or being forced into it for crashes) ,of course it could simply be like old gorkamorka and act like goals to collect in the game (like scrap).

i dont expect the rules to be complicated or detailed like gorkamorka, but something to quickly have a fun game/campaign. they said the other new vehicles will be available for the game so the rulebook itself might have their profiles already or they will releases these rules and probably scenarios in whitedwarf.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Gargskull wrote:
Sorry, murky lurker here just stopping in for a quick question.
Speed Freeks looks great, as someone who doesn't have time for the big games anymore I am very interested, just wanted to know if the desert boards are included?
It looks like a contents pic so I guess so but you never know.
Cheers

i would expect everything in the video is in the box game. GW does not have a habit of including things in "box game" reveal videos that is not in the game (also many of the previous boxset games got their own game mats).

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

 JeffVimes wrote:
Words from the youtube channel French Wargame Studio (which has been quite a reliable source of rumors this year) is that boys will now be based in 32mm.

I really can't face the idea to rebase my hundreds of boys ... I hope he is wrong on this one.

I wouldn't worry too much, GW have always stated that we can use the bases the kit came with when purchased with so I'll be keeping mine on their current bases.

Same with my bikes, I'll not be rebasing them on the larger oval ones, even if that's what's provided from GW from now on.

But if you decide to add to the army later you are screwed, from the switch in base size onwards your colection is dead if you dont rebase everything.

there is no way in hell i will rebase 200 orks.

That pic is the game contents, so the board and terrain are part of it.

PiñaColada wrote:
I know I'm in the crazy minority here, but since I'm not using too many boyz I've already put mine on 32's. It just looks so much better. I understand why green tide players don't want this but for me it's just an aesthetic choice.

Ignoring the difference in how green tide would play out on the table, aren't there base extenders you can buy for pretty cheap instead of literally rebasing?

You play Evil Sunz (of Anorky) right? Like me? It looks like the Warbikes are on different bases too if Speed Freeks is anything to go by - are you going to rebase all those? I'm not, largely because I'd then have to find another way to transport them and I've done a fair few popping wheelies, skidding and doing an endo etc

 Gargskull wrote:
Sorry, murky lurker here just stopping in for a quick question.
Speed Freeks looks great, as someone who doesn't have time for the big games anymore I am very interested, just wanted to know if the desert boards are included?
It looks like a contents pic so I guess so but you never know.
Cheers

I think the board is included also yea.

Ragnar69 wrote:
If someone is worried about rebasing to 32mm, they should check this out:

http://eccentricminiatures.com/adapterrings.html

I used them for my marines and they look good even if you don't paint them. Cheaper than new bases as well.

Thats only an option if you dont care much how the army looks.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
You play Evil Sunz (of Anorky) right? Like me? It looks like the Warbikes are on different bases too if Speed Freeks is anything to go by - are you going to rebase all those? I'm not, largely because I'd then have to find another way to transport them and I've done a fair few popping wheelies, skidding and doing an endo etc.

Oh God, why did it take me like 10 seconds to get that Anorky reference? But yes, I'm also playing Evil Sunz. I actually hadn't noticed the bases were different but I'll either swap them or try and find some extenders. I'm actually repainting a lot of my army at the moment so this won't be such a big deal in the grand scheme of things. Hopefully we can buy those bases standalone from GW and not part of some collection blister pack...

I also believe the mat (or cardboard) is included in the game. It looks like the same type of board you'd get in Kill Team. I'm guessing it's foldable since you can see the pattern repeating, or not meshing perfectly, a bit like a cross in the middle. Anyone dare to guess the size of that thing? Someone eagle-eyed could extrapolate the size of it though comparing it with the warbikes

Cheers all, was hoping that was the case.

 jhnbrg wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

 JeffVimes wrote:
Words from the youtube channel French Wargame Studio (which has been quite a reliable source of rumors this year) is that boys will now be based in 32mm.

I really can't face the idea to rebase my hundreds of boys ... I hope he is wrong on this one.

I wouldn't worry too much, GW have always stated that we can use the bases the kit came with when purchased with so I'll be keeping mine on their current bases.

Same with my bikes, I'll not be rebasing them on the larger oval ones, even if that's what's provided from GW from now on.

But if you decide to add to the army later you are screwed, from the switch in base size onwards your colection is dead if you dont rebase everything.

there is no way in hell i will rebase 200 orks.

A) mixing bases is valid b) you buy box of orks and put them to 25mm base who is going to know?

PiñaColada wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
You play Evil Sunz (of Anorky) right? Like me? It looks like the Warbikes are on different bases too if Speed Freeks is anything to go by - are you going to rebase all those? I'm not, largely because I'd then have to find another way to transport them and I've done a fair few popping wheelies, skidding and doing an endo etc.

Oh God, why did it take me like 10 seconds to get that Anorky reference? But yes, I'm also playing Evil Sunz. I actually hadn't noticed the bases were different but I'll either swap them or try and find some extenders. I'm actually repainting a lot of my army at the moment so this won't be such a big deal in the grand scheme of things. Hopefully we can buy those bases standalone from GW and not part of some collection blister pack...

I also believe the mat (or cardboard) is included in the game. It looks like the same type of board you'd get in Kill Team. I'm guessing it's foldable since you can see the pattern repeating, or not meshing perfectly, a bit like a cross in the middle. Anyone dare to guess the size of that thing? Someone eagle-eyed could extrapolate the size of it though comparing it with the warbikes

Something like 3x4? Guessing from the (presumably) a4 book on it.

But then I don't know how that would work with the boxes because it looks like it's folded into 4 and GW are generally only 1 foot wide

 jhnbrg wrote:

Ragnar69 wrote:
If someone is worried about rebasing to 32mm, they should check this out:

http://eccentricminiatures.com/adapterrings.html

I used them for my marines and they look good even if you don't paint them. Cheaper than new bases as well.

Thats only an option if you dont care much how the army looks.

No, not all all. First, a black rim around a nice base looks surprisingly good and second it is really easy to paint/flock/do whatever the ring the same as the rest of your base. You won't see a difference to a normal 32mm base.