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 Vineheart01 wrote:
well orks were supposed to get a total overhaul on their codex so knowing GW and "new stuff" they probably did make them way overpowered. And noticed it this time...for once...and held it back for revisions.

Aaaaand once again this myth. Dark angel and tau fliers were sooooo broken on release. And primaris were such an awesome cheese they needed point drops to get people to fieid them.

Sheesh

Considering the leaked 20 PL stratagem - imagine if they had just limited it to one or two units or even 2CP per unit without limit. Copy&Paste from another codex and be done with it.

You could easily have over a hundred boyz and kommandoz within 9" of your enemy turn one. Combine with evil suns trait for more reliable 9" charges, I could see this easily being game braking.

And it's not too hard to catch, considering this is pretty much what everyone has been doing this edition until the beta rules hit.

I thought kommandos could only be deployed turn 2 outside deployment zone per FAQ.

So you would be limited to the 20 PL.

Yes, the evil sunz strat would make charging from the 9" much more reliable. Especially with a warboss in range if you could do that. It would be very likely, esp. If they still have full rerolls to charge.

If they've only just realised the codex is overpowered we're not going to see the codex in October, the lead time to rewrite (even if it is a quick hatchet job), find a printer with a spare slot (even an expensive EU one) get books printed, and then distribute them world wide in time for a launch just isn't going to happen

(unless they do a digital only launch with the print version coming a month or two later, I guess that would give them data on whether going digital only might work for all their stuff too so it might be an option they'd consider)

 OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote:
If they've only just realised the codex is overpowered we're not going to see the codex in October, the lead time to rewrite (even if it is a quick hatchet job), find a printer with a spare slot (even an expensive EU one) get books printed, and then distribute them world wide in time for a launch just isn't going to happen

(unless they do a digital only launch with the print version coming a month or two later, I guess that would give them data on whether going digital only might work for all their stuff too so it might be an option they'd consider)

The Over powered rumor is a bit dated, quite a few weeks back. its only just now being mentioned here in this thread.

 OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote:
If they've only just realised the codex is overpowered we're not going to see the codex in October, the lead time to rewrite (even if it is a quick hatchet job), find a printer with a spare slot (even an expensive EU one) get books printed, and then distribute them world wide in time for a launch just isn't going to happen

(unless they do a digital only launch with the print version coming a month or two later, I guess that would give them data on whether going digital only might work for all their stuff too so it might be an option they'd consider)

Pulping an entire run of books seems like an extreme reaction when they can just do what they did with Space Wolves and release a Day 1 FAQ/errata page.

The overpowered codex rumour sounds like something a fake rumourmonger makes up to explain why his previous made up rumour didn't pan out.

An over-powered codex would sell a lot of Orks.

Not to raise a dead horse from the grave just to kick it mercilessly, BUT if GW were to put out in CA 18' that all armies hit on a 6 to hit (not saying I agree with that line of thinking, I actually agree that for pretty much everyone outside of orks the -2 to hit problem still results in them hitting on 6's so whats the need for the rule) would we as Ork players be happy with something like this?

DakkaDakkaDakka - Additional to hit roll on unmodified 6's + Orks always hit on a 5+ regardless on modifiers (so basically negative modifiers do not effect our shooting)

Is that too strong?

EldarExarch wrote:
Not to raise a dead horse from the grave just to kick it mercilessly, BUT if GW were to put out in CA 18' that all armies hit on a 6 to hit (not saying I agree with that line of thinking, I actually agree that for pretty much everyone outside of orks the -2 to hit problem still results in them hitting on 6's so whats the need for the rule) would we as Ork players be happy with something like this?

DakkaDakkaDakka - Additional to hit roll on unmodified 6's + Orks always hit on a 5+ regardless on modifiers (so basically negative modifiers do not effect our shooting)

Is that too strong?

Probably, one very significant tweak to that I would make:

Orks always hit on a 5+ in the shooting phase regardless of modifiers

I don't think the intention is to make Orks the masters of overwatch.

I dunno. You charge da boyz dey may just point da dakka at you and not miss as much. It would be kinda orky for orks to be good at shooting things running at them.

considering one of the biggest ways to annoy an ork has always been "charge them first" i dont think giving them master of overwatch powers is a wise idea.
Even w/o the Furious Charge rule, if you charge the orks then you attack first (cp not withstanding) and unless its MANz and you have no melee AP, you're going to kill orks before they get to swing.

EldarExarch wrote:
Not to raise a dead horse from the grave just to kick it mercilessly, BUT if GW were to put out in CA 18' that all armies hit on a 6 to hit (not saying I agree with that line of thinking, I actually agree that for pretty much everyone outside of orks the -2 to hit problem still results in them hitting on 6's so whats the need for the rule) would we as Ork players be happy with something like this?

DakkaDakkaDakka - Additional to hit roll on unmodified 6's + Orks always hit on a 5+ regardless on modifiers (so basically negative modifiers do not effect our shooting)

Is that too strong?

No, because I dislike when other armies just blatantly ignore my rules, so I don't want to have rules that blatantly ignore other armies' rules.

If you're a speedygofast type army and you're supposed to have durability based on - to hit? Fine. That is valid. It should have some effect.

Friends don't let friends get rules that make people hate them like they hate Tau/Eldar.

Ive been checking the GW Webstore periodically to see if any models get removed leading up to release. For a long time there have been 51 entries for orks, but now there is only 50. I cant figure out what is missing. Anyone know?

EldarExarch wrote:
Not to raise a dead horse from the grave just to kick it mercilessly, BUT if GW were to put out in CA 18' that all armies hit on a 6 to hit (not saying I agree with that line of thinking, I actually agree that for pretty much everyone outside of orks the -2 to hit problem still results in them hitting on 6's so whats the need for the rule) would we as Ork players be happy with something like this?

DakkaDakkaDakka - Additional to hit roll on unmodified 6's + Orks always hit on a 5+ regardless on modifiers (so basically negative modifiers do not effect our shooting)

Is that too strong?

Why would everyone getting a ruling for "unmodified 6s are always hits" equate to Orks needing to be better?

You'd still be the only ones with the "immediately roll an additional hit roll against the same target".

 Billagio wrote:
Ive been checking the GW Webstore periodically to see if any models get removed leading up to release. For a long time there have been 51 entries for orks, but now there is only 50. I cant figure out what is missing. Anyone know?

The UK site still has 51, the US site lacks the Battleforce: Kult of Speed entry

PiñaColada wrote:

 Billagio wrote:
Ive been checking the GW Webstore periodically to see if any models get removed leading up to release. For a long time there have been 51 entries for orks, but now there is only 50. I cant figure out what is missing. Anyone know?

The UK site still has 51, the US site lacks the Battleforce: Kult of Speed entry

Ah gotcha, makes sense with the upcoming Speed Freeks game coming out I guess, wonder why US was updated but not UK

 Kanluwen wrote:

Why would everyone getting a ruling for "unmodified 6s are always hits" equate to Orks needing to be better?
You'd still be the only ones with the "immediately roll an additional hit roll against the same target".

Why would everyone need the 'everyone hits on 6s' rule?

Are Orks getting orders and the ability to soup with any Imperium army? If we're all sharing each other's unique rules now....

 Billagio wrote:

PiñaColada wrote:

 Billagio wrote:
Ive been checking the GW Webstore periodically to see if any models get removed leading up to release. For a long time there have been 51 entries for orks, but now there is only 50. I cant figure out what is missing. Anyone know?

The UK site still has 51, the US site lacks the Battleforce: Kult of Speed entry

Ah gotcha, makes sense with the upcoming Speed Freeks game coming out I guess, wonder why US was updated but not UK

Maybe it sold out and they've stopped making them? I don't know really

 Billagio wrote:

PiñaColada wrote:

 Billagio wrote:
Ive been checking the GW Webstore periodically to see if any models get removed leading up to release. For a long time there have been 51 entries for orks, but now there is only 50. I cant figure out what is missing. Anyone know?

The UK site still has 51, the US site lacks the Battleforce: Kult of Speed entry

Ah gotcha, makes sense with the upcoming Speed Freeks game coming out I guess, wonder why US was updated but not UK

I've also been checking on it periodically. I might have missed something, but IIRC the only models they've removed are the Big Gunz (and Goff Rockerz, but I figure they don't count).

They added the Banner Nob back a while ago, and it's the version with the power klaw.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

Why would everyone getting a ruling for "unmodified 6s are always hits" equate to Orks needing to be better?
You'd still be the only ones with the "immediately roll an additional hit roll against the same target".

Why would everyone need the 'everyone hits on 6s' rule?

Are Orks getting orders and the ability to soup with any Imperium army? If we're all sharing each other's unique rules now....

I'll try to word this in a way that makes sense to both player bases. I myself am an ork player, but I do have other armies. The Problem with the lines of thinking is this: Non Ork armies are looking at it from a rules stand point that it should be a core mechanic that 6s always hit. However if you move to the fluff side of things, the Ork player is only hitting automatically on 6s because of the "volume of shots the ork army is supposedly able to put out". Other factions do not have this volume therefore should not automatically hit on 6s. even if it makes sense rules-wise it doesn't make sense fluffwise. Additionally from the Ork perspective, GW gave us a shiny new tool to help us compete. Non Ork players, by saying that 6s should be a core mechanic are also saying that they want half the rule to apply to them as well. so by suggesting this, the Ork players then want to know what suggestion should be substituted in addition to the additional hit rolls on 6s for trying to take a rule that applies exclusively to them and distributing it to other armies. I hope I explained why people on the Orks side are saying there should be an additional benefit for essentially applying their rule to everyone.

mhalko1 wrote:
I'll try to word this in a way that makes sense to both player bases. I myself am an ork player, but I do have other armies. The Problem with the lines of thinking is this: Non Ork armies are looking at it from a rules stand point that it should be a core mechanic that 6s always hit. However if you move to the fluff side of things, the Ork player is only hitting automatically on 6s because of the "volume of shots the ork army is supposedly able to put out". Other factions do not have this volume therefore should not automatically hit on 6s. even if it makes sense rules-wise it doesn't make sense fluffwise. Additionally from the Ork perspective, GW gave us a shiny new tool to help us compete. Non Ork players, by saying that 6s should be a core mechanic are also saying that they want half the rule to apply to them as well. so by suggesting this, the Ork players then want to know what suggestion should be substituted in addition to the additional hit rolls on 6s for trying to take a rule that applies exclusively to them and distributing it to other armies. I hope I explained why people on the Orks side are saying there should be an additional benefit for essentially applying their rule to everyone.

You've summed it up nicely, I think the only thing missing is that this rule is actually needed for Orks to function as an army in 8th while other armies don't need the rule to function. I don't think it would have hardly any difference on other factions except for the most remote and obscure cases, such as Sniper Drones (boohoo) and battered vehicles with 10+ W (that are supposed to miss most of their shots).

If every army gets this rule, then all of their units has instantly become better at no cost. That is poor balance. It's also pretty weak that other factions are trying to pilfer a unique Ork rule before we even have a codex. We haven't even got stratagems or relics and other players want our rules. It's our turn in the sun, even if it's for a few weeks.

 Kanluwen wrote:

Why would everyone getting a ruling for "unmodified 6s are always hits" equate to Orks needing to be better?

You'd still be the only ones with the "immediately roll an additional hit roll against the same target".

An immediate hit on a 6 that hits on a 5 or a 6 before modifiers is significantly less powerful than an extra attack on a 6 that hits on a 3 or 4+.

By contrast, rerolls on misses work in the inverse. That's why the twin linked rules ended up disproportionately favoring the armies with higher ballistic skills.

Edit: I meant this as a reply to mhalko1, but I foolishly didn't quote him and then my phone took forever to post my reply.

I understand those points to an extent, but on the other hand I disagree with them.

Other armies than Orks don't "need" an "always hits on 6s" rule like the Orks do. It really only makes a difference in edge cases. For that same reason, it isn't some big buff to other armies' shooting that we have to worry about either. It's definitely not necessary, but I don't think it takes anything away from the orks and it's not nearly as big of change in terms of rules as some of the other things they've put out in Chapter Approved and the big FAQ.

I guess the point I'm trying to make is that while I don't think think other armies need to always but on 6 I also see no downside to having 6s always hit for everyone.

As far as needing half the rule replaced if everyone else gets it, I think that we really need to wait for the codex. It's possible that all ork shooting ends up ridiculously undercosted and we'll feel bad for Fielding all of our cheesy Lootas and Flash Gitz (I doubt that will actually happen, but the point is we really don't know).

 Kanluwen wrote:
Why would everyone getting a ruling for "unmodified 6s are always hits" equate to Orks needing to be better?

You'd still be the only ones with the "immediately roll an additional hit roll against the same target".

Simple.

Because the rule is in our codex, we can assume that all of our shooting units cost more points because of it. Units should have point costs that are based upon the special rules that apply to them, no?

If GW turns around and makes it a general rule, every other army gets it for free. The Orks were the only army that had to pay for it.

Hence the salt.

 JimOnMars wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
Why would everyone getting a ruling for "unmodified 6s are always hits" equate to Orks needing to be better?

You'd still be the only ones with the "immediately roll an additional hit roll against the same target".

Simple.

Because the rule is in our codex, we can assume that all of our shooting units cost more points because of it. Units should have point costs that are based upon the special rules that apply to them, no?

If GW turns around and makes it a general rule, every other army gets it for free. The Orks were the only army that had to pay for it.

Hence the salt.

I'm expecting it to take the place of mob rule, with mob rule moving to the detachment if battleforged benefit.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

Why would everyone getting a ruling for "unmodified 6s are always hits" equate to Orks needing to be better?
You'd still be the only ones with the "immediately roll an additional hit roll against the same target".

Why would everyone need the 'everyone hits on 6s' rule?

Are Orks getting orders and the ability to soup with any Imperium army? If we're all sharing each other's unique rules now....

Imagine Blood Axes being able to ally into Imperial forces

Then again, with IG and SM captains and Custodes, would Orks even enhance Imperial soup?

 Dojo wrote:

 OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote:
If they've only just realised the codex is overpowered we're not going to see the codex in October, the lead time to rewrite (even if it is a quick hatchet job), find a printer with a spare slot (even an expensive EU one) get books printed, and then distribute them world wide in time for a launch just isn't going to happen

(unless they do a digital only launch with the print version coming a month or two later, I guess that would give them data on whether going digital only might work for all their stuff too so it might be an option they'd consider)

The Over powered rumor is a bit dated, quite a few weeks back. its only just now being mentioned here in this thread.

So for that and october to be connected that would have to have happened more like january-march. Not "few weeks back"


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 lord_blackfang wrote:
The overpowered codex rumour sounds like something a fake rumourmonger makes up to explain why his previous made up rumour didn't pan out.

Yep.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Nurglitch wrote:
An over-powered codex would sell a lot of Orks.

Of course GW has rather lousy track record on "overpowered rules to sell new models". Yeah wraithknight. One unit. Then assault centurions, tau/DA fliers, primaris that needed quickly price decrease to get people buy use them...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

Why would everyone getting a ruling for "unmodified 6s are always hits" equate to Orks needing to be better?
You'd still be the only ones with the "immediately roll an additional hit roll against the same target".

Why would everyone need the 'everyone hits on 6s' rule?

Are Orks getting orders and the ability to soup with any Imperium army? If we're all sharing each other's unique rules now....

Because no unit in the game should end up in impossible to hit. Only total rookie game designer with zero idea on what good game consist would think that's good idea. No wonder thus GW has introduced such an idea.

If you think that's good idea I want impossible to hit in CC ability for my armies just to laugh at the ork players who put their own advantage over welfare of game.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 JimOnMars wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
Why would everyone getting a ruling for "unmodified 6s are always hits" equate to Orks needing to be better?

You'd still be the only ones with the "immediately roll an additional hit roll against the same target".

Simple.

Because the rule is in our codex, we can assume that all of our shooting units cost more points because of it. Units should have point costs that are based upon the special rules that apply to them, no?

If GW turns around and makes it a general rule, every other army gets it for free. The Orks were the only army that had to pay for it.

Hence the salt.

GW doesn't believe in army rules upping point costs so...No.

Or are you expecting 7 pts boyz in the codex then?-)

Army rules, chapter/whatever traits. Those GW values as exactly 0.

tneva82 wrote:
Because no unit in the game should end up in impossible to hit. Only total rookie game designer with zero idea on what good game consist would think that's good idea.

You still owe us proof for this bold statement you keep repeating without anything to back it up.
Repeating it without proof does not make it true.

If you think that's good idea I want impossible to hit in CC ability for my armies just to laugh at the ork players who put their own advantage over welfare of game.

Please provide a list of models that cannot be hit by an army that completely consists of BS 3+ models.

Also note that there can be models which cannot be hit by orks in CC in the game right now.

 JimOnMars wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
Why would everyone getting a ruling for "unmodified 6s are always hits" equate to Orks needing to be better?

You'd still be the only ones with the "immediately roll an additional hit roll against the same target".

Simple.

Because the rule is in our codex, we can assume that all of our shooting units cost more points because of it. Units should have point costs that are based upon the special rules that apply to them, no?

If GW turns around and makes it a general rule, every other army gets it for free. The Orks were the only army that had to pay for it.

Hence the salt.

Welcome to Thousand Sons in 2004, when suddenly everybody got Slow and Purposeful with bolters, without the downside, that they paid dearly for.