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Sorry what rules am I breaking? I thought there were rules about blatantly trolling that you seem to repeatedly break.

People (including me) have explained via maths how your 'side grade' argument is wrong.

We have explained in the context of gameplay and a units' role.

You have no argument to either but still claim that you're correct. It makes no logical sense.

Yes we need to see the entire datasheet. Of course. But if it remains the same apart from these changes, Boys are worse. This is a fact.

hmmmm, I would need to see the overall codex first before I judge the points increase.

If we are in the same state as the index where everything costs more teeth than Split-Grin Bad Moons have then we're screwed.

If everything is now costed fairly and all is great then I don't think anybody will notice. Honestly, I'd be swapping out 30 boyz for a few vehicles anyway... and I can not deny my boyz will be getting more powerful if the Evil Sunz trait is real with DDD.

I’m just trying to figure out where 7point Shoota Boyz will be played, I love those guys...

Maybe in a Freeboota list, if the shooting perks are worth it.

But, this is a Strategy post more than anything...

fe40k wrote:


I’d bet that we’ll be seeing “always hits on 6s” in CA this year - which means we’d be paying entirely for the 2-5% increase it hits, and just that.

But that's pure conjecture. Personally I doubt that will happen. If it does, then you have all the right to bitch about it then, but right now it's all pure speculation.

 Red Corsair wrote:

fe40k wrote:


I’d bet that we’ll be seeing “always hits on 6s” in CA this year - which means we’d be paying entirely for the 2-5% increase it hits, and just that.

But that's pure conjecture. Personally I doubt that will happen. If it does, then you have all the right to bitch about it then, but right now it's all pure speculation.

Everything is pure speculation, until we see the codex.

fe40k wrote:
His argument is that it’s worth it, because you can go from 0% hit chance, to 17% hit chance, due to -hit modifiers.

That sounds reasonable, but a 0% to 17% is a 17% increase, at best - which means, if you aren’t getting that always hits on 6s benefit with every attack, you’re actually getting less value than what you pay for; read, nerf.

DDD is a 2-5% increase in hits, at a 17% price increase in most scenarios - you can tell me if you think it’s worth it, but I don’t think it is,

If your ONLY targets all the time ARE -2 to hit stackers, then sure, it’s worth it; but... even then, you’re just breaking even.

I’d bet that we’ll be seeing “always hits on 6s” in CA this year - which means we’d be paying entirely for the 2-5% increase it hits, and just that.

He's conveniently forgetting the massive nerf that is 32mm bases from 28. This represents a 50% reduction in cqc attacks which is where our damage is done....

Why are we all forgetting that Boys have already been nerfed?

Well, we're all also basing these arguments on rumor and speculation. I'd hate to see this thread closed again, so maybe all of you just get a room and leave the public forum, ok?

fe40k wrote:
I’m just trying to figure out where 7point Shoota Boyz will be played, I love those guys...

Maybe in a Freeboota list, if the shooting perks are worth it.

But, this is a Strategy post more than anything...

I'll play 'em. Although not in hordes mind you, since I want my boyz in transports. Hopefully they've added some synergy there, I really just want trukkboyz to be a thing again.

Overall, I doubt boyz will have anything that makes them "worth" the extra point so pure horde armies won't necessarily be much better off post codex but if you run a mixed force I'm sure the pros far outweigh the cons.
I also think this is because they know that they're going to price hike several base infantery units in CA so they're upping the price now, instead of having to errata the point cost in like another month

EDIT: Also, is it possible to physically fit 20 boyz on 32's around a battlewagon within 3" if they were using it as a transport and it blows up? I'm not at home so I can't try it and I'm too dumb&lazy to do the math..

fe40k wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:

fe40k wrote:


I’d bet that we’ll be seeing “always hits on 6s” in CA this year - which means we’d be paying entirely for the 2-5% increase it hits, and just that.

But that's pure conjecture. Personally I doubt that will happen. If it does, then you have all the right to bitch about it then, but right now it's all pure speculation.

Everything is pure speculation, until we see the codex.

Thats not true at all. Making a prediction of what COULD be in CA is pure speculation. Formulating an opinion based on information provided by GW is not. We just disagree a little bit about the impact that info could have, which is fine.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

fe40k wrote:
I’m just trying to figure out where 7point Shoota Boyz will be played, I love those guys...

Maybe in a Freeboota list, if the shooting perks are worth it.

But, this is a Strategy post more than anything...

Honestly I think shoota boys are the better version. If you go evil suns your moving an average of 9" on foot and still shooting to full effect which gets you a 27" threat range, which is pretty solid.

 Red Corsair wrote:

fe40k wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:

fe40k wrote:


I’d bet that we’ll be seeing “always hits on 6s” in CA this year - which means we’d be paying entirely for the 2-5% increase it hits, and just that.

But that's pure conjecture. Personally I doubt that will happen. If it does, then you have all the right to bitch about it then, but right now it's all pure speculation.

Everything is pure speculation, until we see the codex.

Thats not true at all. Making a prediction of what COULD be in CA is pure speculation. Formulating an opinion based on information provided by GW is not. We just disagree a little bit about the impact that info could have, which is fine.

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/764484.page

I assume the vast majority of us are going to buy Speed Freeks and Buggies anyways. So we can all throw them in the army when Boys are weaker.

Who wants to bet that the best buggies are those that aren't in Speed Freeks?

 xttz wrote:
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2018/10/12/what-is-the-speedwaaagh/

Reads as if each of the six new vehicles will be tied to a particular clan

If they are, can I still take them in the same detachment? I want to make a right an' proppa SpeedWAAAGH!, and I can't do that if I have to make 6 different detachments

7 point ork boyz are reasonable. Now we only need for GW to be even more reasonable and make infantry squads, tau firewarriors, kabalites and skitari rangers/vanguards +1ppm.

I would agree 32mm bases are a nerf if it would be enforced. But I can't see many tournaments enforcing it. It would be very unfair because until now they wouldn't force you to rebase things like terminators, space marines, or demon infantry. The change from 25mm to 32mm wasn't a balance change by GW's part, it was just for aesthetical reasons.

 Galas wrote:
7 point ork boyz are reasonable. Now we only need for GW to be even more reasonable and make infantry squads, tau firewarriors, kabalites and skitari rangers/vanguards +1ppm.

I would agree 32mm bases are a nerf if it would be enforced. But I can't see many tournaments enforcing it. It would be very unfair because until now they wouldn't force you to rebase things like terminators, space marines, or demon infantry. The change from 25mm to 32mm wasn't a balance change by GW's part, it was just for aesthetical reasons.

I would agree with your basing sentiment if GW hadn't recently put out a 'suggested basing document' for AOS.

If the same thing is released for 40k, all tournaments immediately start enforcing it.

boyz going to 7pts..again? ok if they give them a slight statboost fine but they were hot garbage at 7pts before so what gives?
Even if they just went to a 5+ save i'd be fine with 7pt boyz.

I more prefer my toyz over boyz but theres still that threshold of minimum boyz you should never break.

fe40k wrote:
That sounds reasonable, but a 0% to 17% is a 17% increase, at best - which means, if you aren’t getting that always hits on 6s benefit with every attack, you’re actually getting less value than what you pay for; read, nerf.

Correct. And he discounts (completely) the high percentage of the time that a 7 point model actually has 0% to hit, before the rule.

The whole idea that a 7 point model is correctly pointed because it has a rule that allows it to shoot, and get a hit 1/6 of the time, when other, cheaper units get vastly more hits, is just trolling.

A devourer gaunt gets 1 and 1/2 st4 hits per turn, and has rules to boost even that. It's 8 points. Our 7 point model gets half of that output, for 7/8th the price. Anyone who thinks this is fair is just trolling.

No model is worth 7 points that only gets 1 st4 hit every 1-1/2 turns (or frequently every 3rd turn as BS6+), while at the same time dying to paper cuts. All of the rules in the world do not matter if a unit has negligible output.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

 Galas wrote:
7 point ork boyz are reasonable. Now we only need for GW to be even more reasonable and make infantry squads, tau firewarriors, kabalites and skitari rangers/vanguards +1ppm.

I would agree 32mm bases are a nerf if it would be enforced. But I can't see many tournaments enforcing it. It would be very unfair because until now they wouldn't force you to rebase things like terminators, space marines, or demon infantry. The change from 25mm to 32mm wasn't a balance change by GW's part, it was just for aesthetical reasons.

I would agree with your basing sentiment if GW hadn't recently put out a 'suggested basing document' for AOS.

If the same thing is released for 40k, all tournaments immediately start enforcing it.

Right, so wait for it to happen first. It may not happen AOS isn't the same situation, that game transitioned from squares to round. they tried to get away with keeping the squares at first with horrible rules for engagement. It really is a very different situation.

BTW 32mm is not entirely a nerf. a 30 man mob gains 210mm of board coverage laterally. For me the 32mm base thing is more an issue for clogged deployment then a worry later. More board control IS better tactically. You lose a rank of boyz in assault, but 95% of time your not assaulting with 3 ranks and when you do you don't require 120 attacks to kill the inevitable chaf your hitting. More reason to take shoota boyz.

GW is always harsher on assault units for some reason, look at a DE wych or wrack compared to a warrior. A kroot and a FW. GW is definitely pushing shoota boyz whether intentional or not.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
Grukk is monopose PK only footboss with kombi rokkit. So no boss on foot with big choppa or any ranged weapon apart from the aforementioned.

No standard Big Mek with anything outside the SAG,.unless you count the Meganobs kit as making this (think it says on the box).

MA Warboss shouldn't be the same as Meganobz and MA Big Mek IMO.

I use weirdnob shaman for weirdboy but could do with more model options! I can't stand repetition.

Correct me if I am wrong, but how hard it is to just cut the rocket off and replace it with anything else? Or get AoBR kit?

Isn't there two plastic meks who can be made into big mek with ease? Big mek with SAG doesn't seem to be any different to meks if you take the gun away?

As for MA warboss, what's wrong with using Megaboss? The conversion is quick and easy, plus looks quite nice.

As for shaman, Warchanter makes even better weirdboy and could really be a dual game kit. At worst, you just need to greenstuff feet into boots if you care about that and you're done...

It would be interesting if this was a game wide move that will be echoed in upcoming chapter approved to tune units that cost less than 9-10ppm base (I e. Horde units are all getting points increase)

 JimOnMars wrote:

fe40k wrote:
That sounds reasonable, but a 0% to 17% is a 17% increase, at best - which means, if you aren’t getting that always hits on 6s benefit with every attack, you’re actually getting less value than what you pay for; read, nerf.

Correct. And he discounts (completely) the high percentage of the time that a 7 point model actually has 0% to hit, before the rule.

The whole idea that a 7 point model is correctly pointed because it has a rule that allows it to shoot, and get a hit 1/6 of the time, when other, cheaper units get vastly more hits, is just trolling.

A devourer gaunt gets 1 and 1/2 st4 hits per turn, and has rules to boost even that. It's 8 points. Our 7 point model gets half of that output, for 7/8th the price. Anyone who thinks this is fair is just trolling.

No model is worth 7 points that only gets 1 st4 hit every 1-1/2 turns (or frequently every 3rd turn as BS6+), while at the same time dying to paper cuts. All of the rules in the world do not matter if a unit has negligible output.

I never discounted anything. The frequency of hit mods are not something I can objectively assume. If your advancing (which if your not your orking wrong) and shooting any flier or any eldar for the most part, stigys 8, raven guard or Alpha legion your at 0%. In my meta that's more then half the field, I am not going to attempt to try and guess everyone elses, but I am pretty sure those things I listed are all fairly popular.

Crap I somehow forgot every Tyranid army as well lol. So yea, not exactly a rare occurrence for my meta at least. If your playing in a soft core area where hit mods are rare then yea, it's kind of a flat perk for sure.

This thread is not for debating power level of units and uprades in depth - if you want to do this, please start a thread in 40K Tactics or 40K General Discussion.

Additionally, do not accuse others of "trolling" a thread, just hit the yellow triangle and a mod will check it out! Otherwise, those accusations just derail the thread themselves.

So with that, let's drop the tangent about the relative power level of boyz, please. If you do want to discuss it further, either take it to PM or start up a thread in one of the sections I listed above (feel free to link to it here if you do).

Thanks all!

I know this is coming from some random guy on the dakkadakka.... but I KNOW for a FACT boyz are 7ppm.

DDD is a stupid pointless upgrade that has very very little value. It is a 17% chance to proc, then needs to hit. So its a 5% extra damage BEFORE wounding and saves. Even 100 shots yield an extra 5 wound rolls, likely 2-3 to go through and another 1-2 to get blocked by armor. So 1-2 extra hits per 100 shots.........

tneva82 wrote:

 zend wrote:
Basic daemons went up when CSM dropped, didn't they?

Also, the Ork index was hot squig gak, and poorly balanced. Just because boyz were the only good thing they had then, doesn't mean they are now. We just got confirmation that we're getting a 120point winged Daemon Prince that's only missing the fly and pysker keywords after all.

So below average unit gets other units that might be good is worth double nerf right? You know where that leads? Nobody takes ork boyz that weren't competive even before double nerf and takes good unit. Hmm...Almost as if GW was trying to get people buy something other than what they have sold before! And what's better to that than nerf the unit that sold to death while boosting others.

Are you asking if I'm okay with boyz receiving a Nerf in exchange for playstyles other than greentide potentially becoming viable?

Absolutely.

 RiTides wrote:
the tangent about the relative power level of boyz, please. If you do want to discuss it further, either take it to PM or start up a thread in one of the sections I listed above (feel free to link to it here if you do).

Thanks all!

I don't understand this at all.

The topic is "Ork News and Rumours" and there is a rumour that Ork Boys are going to 7ppm. Surely this is exactly the place to discuss what impact that will have on the game?

the worst part about all this is that I've spent a few years now around people who have never even seen an Ork army never mind a Evil Sunz army like mine... Kinda made me feel special... now everyone is going to do speed freaks. XD I't selfish but it's the truth.

No but seriously, if they end up OP then everyone will just tell me I play them because they're OP even though I've played them in their worst for ages!

 zend wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

 zend wrote:
Basic daemons went up when CSM dropped, didn't they?

Also, the Ork index was hot squig gak, and poorly balanced. Just because boyz were the only good thing they had then, doesn't mean they are now. We just got confirmation that we're getting a 120point winged Daemon Prince that's only missing the fly and pysker keywords after all.

So below average unit gets other units that might be good is worth double nerf right? You know where that leads? Nobody takes ork boyz that weren't competive even before double nerf and takes good unit. Hmm...Almost as if GW was trying to get people buy something other than what they have sold before! And what's better to that than nerf the unit that sold to death while boosting others.

Are you asking if I'm okay with boyz receiving a Nerf in exchange for playstyles other than greentide potentially becoming viable?

Absolutely.

This really. I'm re-starting my Orkz but I really don't want to get 100+ Boyz just to field something remotely competitive I'd much rather put 3 squads of 12 in Trukks to match the theme of my upcoming SpeedWAAAGH!- army than be almost forced to get 3 squads of 30 and warp them around with Da Jump in order to make an impact. Of course that doesn't mean Green Tide should become unviable but if Boyz remaining as they are take up a too big portion of the power budget of the rest of the faction I'd rather see them brought back into line and other units buffed than let things remain as they are.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

 RiTides wrote:
the tangent about the relative power level of boyz, please. If you do want to discuss it further, either take it to PM or start up a thread in one of the sections I listed above (feel free to link to it here if you do).

Thanks all!

I don't understand this at all.

The topic is "Ork News and Rumours" and there is a rumour that Ork Boys are going to 7ppm. Surely this is exactly the place to discuss what impact that will have on the game?

calm down English... let's not risk your account over a potential rumour from a french dude about a game... I feel like what the mod is saying is that everyone is getting way to angry with each other and flooding pages with debates that are going nowhere. I would miss you if you went missing .

 lolman1c wrote:
the worst part about all this is that I've spent a few years now around people who have never even seen an Ork army never mind a Evil Sunz army like mine... Kinda made me feel special... now everyone is going to do speed freaks. XD I't selfish but it's the truth.

No but seriously, if they end up OP then everyone will just tell me I play them because they're OP even though I've played them in their worst for ages!

I'm in the same boat, but I seriously doubt they'll be OP. At least not a fluffy, non-horde evil sunz army. Orks are completely governed by the rule of cool for me, so even if a speed freeks evil sunz army becomes the meta, I'm sure I'll figure out a way to make them much worse but slightly cooler

 lolman1c wrote:
the worst part about all this is that I've spent a few years now around people who have never even seen an Ork army never mind a Evil Sunz army like mine... Kinda made me feel special... now everyone is going to do speed freaks. XD I't selfish but it's the truth.

No but seriously, if they end up OP then everyone will just tell me I play them because they're OP even though I've played them in their worst for ages!

Haha, I understand Still, if it's any consolation I've been wanting to do Speed Freeks for a longer time but felt that Orks kinda lacked the proper models for it (not really a big fan of the old buggy), but now that they're going to get that boatload of Mad Max racecars I can't wait to get started

Pandabeer wrote:

 xttz wrote:
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2018/10/12/what-is-the-speedwaaagh/

Reads as if each of the six new vehicles will be tied to a particular clan

If they are, can I still take them in the same detachment? I want to make a right an' proppa SpeedWAAAGH!, and I can't do that if I have to make 6 different detachments

I interpreted that as them just saying what each of the paint jobs was, not them saying they are locked to a Clan.