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 Spreelock wrote:
Well, I was considering it for nobz on bikes, to make them more resilient. Yeah, it is definately good if battlewagon gets speed freak keyword.

Oh right those exists too! They are so lol bad I entirely forgot they even were in codex Well if they have the tag then yeah full(or at least big) unit of those would be also worth it. Suitably death starry for strategems.

edit: Oh drat noticed yet another NERF on stompa...Degration chart just got worse. Rather than S degrading it's now A...And since S is the one you are least going to miss...Basically by the time you get to combat your new improved A value has degraded into state of same or worse as before. And "funnily" enough if anything orks are the ones that should be least degrading rather than stompa being hurt by degration even more than say imperial knights. Ugh.

edit2: And FW made necron walker rules that are much more playable(though wouldn't consider that as auto include even then...). Sigh. Puts stompa at shame, costs 66% of stompa and still isn't auto include.

 nflagey wrote:
By the way, I saw someone here ask about Looted Wagons.

The French guys talked about them briefly and said they were not in the Codex. I guess this is not really a surprise.

Psychocouac, tu confirmes?

Yes, not in the codex.

Knights, Deathguard; Strategem, Guarantees explosion, no roll.
Orks; Strategem, Explodes on a 5+ instead of 6+!

If that’s true - come on.

Also, I love how the reality that this codex, despite being hyped/"worked on" for long, is beginning to sink in that it’s rhe exact same as other codecii - in that the writing is poor, unit prices/values are off, and it could honestly end up anywhere from top of pack, to more likely, lower in the pack rankings.

Evil Sunz and teleport strategems only thing holding the codex together from the sounds of it; boyz are nerfed, vehicles are overpriced, shooting is still equally poor (although more open to different BS values than 5+), stratagems largely unapplicable, and so on...

Hitting on 6+ always is a nice touch though; but I’ll be honest, I’m expecting that to be a base game rule in he upcoming CA.

Worst part is knowing that we’ll have to wait a year to see any hope of updated/improved points pricing on models, since we’re being released too close to CA2018.

I’m sure between Evil Sunz; Da Jump, Stormboyz, and 20pl teleport stratagem; we’ll still be a competitive army - but it’ll largely be the same play style as now (albeit reduced ability to green tide in number); but all the fun/fluffy units, aka the best ones, will largely remain unviable.

 NinthMusketeer wrote:

 JimOnMars wrote:
I don't know how that would work...You suddenly get to play with somebody else's model? I've run into some folk that could get a little tetchy with that....

No; it stops being their model when you take it.

Permanently!

fe40k wrote:
Knights, Deathguard; Strategem, Guarantees explosion, no roll.
Orks; Strategem, Explodes on a 5+ instead of 6+!

If that’s true - come on.

Also, I love how the reality that this codex, despite being hyped/"worked on" for long, is beginning to sink in that it’s rhe exact same as other codecii - in that the writing is poor, unit prices/values are off, and it could honestly end up anywhere from top of pack, to more likely, lower in the pack rankings.

Evil Sunz and teleport strategems only thing holding the codex together from the sounds of it; boyz are nerfed, vehicles are overpriced, shooting is still equally poor (although more open to different BS values than 5+), stratagems largely unapplicable, and so on...

Hitting on 6+ always is a nice touch though; but I’ll be honest, I’m expecting that to be a base game rule in he upcoming CA.

Worst part is knowing that we’ll have to wait a year to see any hope of updated/improved points pricing on models, since we’re being released too close to CA2018.

I’m sure between Evil Sunz; Da Jump, Stormboyz, and 20pl teleport stratagem; we’ll still be a competitive army - but it’ll largely be the same play style as now (albeit reduced ability to green tide in number); but all the fun/fluffy units, aka the best ones, will largely remain unviable.

The knight stratagem is explodes on a 4+ for 2CP. On the new knights they roll 2 die and if either is a 6+ (or 4+ with the strat) it blows up. If both are 6+/4+ it blows up bigger

i was hoping for a sensible stompa price decrease, but im not surprised by what we are getting.

im gonna try to stay hopeful for other pt decreases for other units. until then im not getting too disappointed by the inevitable worthless stompa (was there an edition it was actually good? besides the cheap bigmek stompa of 7th lol).

and no offence to the french youtuber who is being awesome by leaking this stuff, but unless he runs orks for his primary army and hes played the stompa against any army that is good against hvy armor, then im not gonna take his word on how good the over costed stompa is (i didn't believe when reece said it, im not gonna believe it here).

Not Happy.

Its horses for courses i'd love to run my tac marine focused army with land speeders and such at a tourney but it wouldn't survive past turn 1.

most tournament armies i see are a tiny variation on the same theme across factions. Like chaos oh look another morty, and plague drones of etc etc

its not what gw wanted to do with 8th but its the reality.

geargutz wrote:
i was hoping for a sensible stompa price decrease, but im not surprised by what we are getting.

im gonna try to stay hopeful for other pt decreases for other units. until then im not getting too disappointed by the inevitable worthless stompa (was there an edition it was actually good? besides the cheap bigmek stompa of 7th lol).

and no offence to the french youtuber who is being awesome by leaking this stuff, but unless he runs orks for his primary army and hes played the stompa against any army that is good against hvy armor, then im not gonna take his word on how good the over costed stompa is (i didn't believe when reece said it, im not gonna believe it here).

I'd agree with you ... the leaks were ... well, leaked ... during a very brief AAQ right after they demoed Speed Freeks.
It was not a thought through analysis of points/power balance at all.
Whether or not he's an ork player was not really relevant in that context.
So yeah, I would not assume his view on the Stompa or other units are those of a competitive ork player

fe40k wrote:
Knights, Deathguard; Strategem, Guarantees explosion, no roll.
Orks; Strategem, Explodes on a 5+ instead of 6+!

Hum. I thought the exploding thing referred to 6's causing more shots rather than dying on explosion? Or did I misunderstand something.

Also, I love how the reality that this codex, despite being hyped/"worked on" for long, is beginning to sink in that it’s rhe exact same as other codecii - in that the writing is poor, unit prices/values are off, and it could honestly end up anywhere from top of pack, to more likely, lower in the pack rankings.

[ ] surprised.

PiñaColada wrote:

fe40k wrote:
Knights, Deathguard; Strategem, Guarantees explosion, no roll.
Orks; Strategem, Explodes on a 5+ instead of 6+!

If that’s true - come on.

Also, I love how the reality that this codex, despite being hyped/"worked on" for long, is beginning to sink in that it’s rhe exact same as other codecii - in that the writing is poor, unit prices/values are off, and it could honestly end up anywhere from top of pack, to more likely, lower in the pack rankings.

Evil Sunz and teleport strategems only thing holding the codex together from the sounds of it; boyz are nerfed, vehicles are overpriced, shooting is still equally poor (although more open to different BS values than 5+), stratagems largely unapplicable, and so on...

Hitting on 6+ always is a nice touch though; but I’ll be honest, I’m expecting that to be a base game rule in he upcoming CA.

Worst part is knowing that we’ll have to wait a year to see any hope of updated/improved points pricing on models, since we’re being released too close to CA2018.

I’m sure between Evil Sunz; Da Jump, Stormboyz, and 20pl teleport stratagem; we’ll still be a competitive army - but it’ll largely be the same play style as now (albeit reduced ability to green tide in number); but all the fun/fluffy units, aka the best ones, will largely remain unviable.

The knight stratagem is explodes on a 4+ for 2CP. On the new knights they roll 2 die and if either is a 6+ (or 4+ with the strat) it blows up. If both are 6+/4+ it blows up bigger

Hmm, I eat my words then.

I looked up the Death Guard one, and it was an automatic explosion; so I figured the big knights would be as well - which seems weird that it’s not, since there’s even less of them than Death Guard vehicles, and they’re so big...

I suppose that it might be balanced out since the big ones can have a larger explosion, depending how to roll.

I’m not sold on a +1 to explosion roll for +1 cp (which it has to close, right?); but maybe it’ll have its use in a niche situation - better to have it as an option, then not have it, I guess.

tneva82 wrote:

fe40k wrote:
Knights, Deathguard; Strategem, Guarantees explosion, no roll.
Orks; Strategem, Explodes on a 5+ instead of 6+!

Hum. I thought the exploding thing referred to 6's causing more shots rather than dying on explosion? Or did I misunderstand something.

You are right. I re explain:

Rule DakkaDakkaDakka: you won't hit worse than 6+ and 6+ generates an other hit roll.

New stratagem (moar dakka!): you won't hit worse than 5+ and 5+ generates an other hit roll.

The moar dakka strat is basically what I think the bad moons rule should have been instead, just for simplicity's sake

i really hope orkz get a surprise lieutenant in the codex. Something like a boss nob that scares the boys into fighting harder giving reroll 1's to wound in close combat like the CSM aspiring champion?

Thats what orkz are missing, some character synergy. Yes we have KFF Big Mekz, Painboyz, Banner Nobz and Warbosses but we need something else.

Hey even the little Mek could grant reroll 1's to wound for Mek Guns and Vehicles. All of sudden he isnt trash anymore!!!


****like when dark angels got their Talon Master, it wasnt expected and hes actually quite good!****

I'm rather glad if they DON'T give rerolls. Those slow down. 8th ed is already slower than any edition in years. If they want boost things have rather modifiers. +1 to wound and more pricey or something. Orks already roll tons of dices. I already am rushing things enough without even more rerolls to the mix.

tneva82 wrote:
I'm rather glad if they DON'T give rerolls. Those slow down. 8th ed is already slower than any edition in years. If they want boost things have rather modifiers. +1 to wound and more pricey or something. Orkz already roll tons of dices. I already am rushing things enough without even more rerolls to the mix.

+1 to wound would be silly on things on like KMK's. Reroll 1's are fine. For a battery of 5 Mek Gunz it doesnt slow down the game that much. I play Admech as well as Dark Eldar and they have rerolls coming from all over the place and it has never slowed down my turn. In fact my opponents take longer with there turns than i do with mine.

I know all my weapons and rules and i know my opponents army too. I rarely have to flick through my codex or my opponents and i am quite good at guessing how many dice i need to roll in my opponents turn. With all this combined i quite frequently finish before time is called.

And it is the same when i play my Orkz. Orkz dont roll a tonne of dice in the shooting phase compared to most armies, regularly ive seen people roll more dice in the shooting phase than us. The slowest phase of the game for us is the movement phase which can be offset by movement trays and a billion combat gauges everywhere to plan ahead

The slowest game ive ever had was vs a guilliman gunline. Took him forever to decide what to shoot his twin assault cannons at and then when he did it was just a wave of dice then rerolls then dice thrown again with more rerolls.

Quite often i find people with gun lines take longer turns.

 deffrekka wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
I'm rather glad if they DON'T give rerolls. Those slow down. 8th ed is already slower than any edition in years. If they want boost things have rather modifiers. +1 to wound and more pricey or something. Orkz already roll tons of dices. I already am rushing things enough without even more rerolls to the mix.

+1 to wound would be silly on things on like KMK's. Reroll 1's are fine. For a battery of 5 Mek Gunz it doesnt slow down the game that much. I play Admech as well as Dark Eldar and they have rerolls coming from all over the place and it has never slowed down my turn. In fact my opponents take longer with there turns than i do with mine.

And you don't think that reroll HQ wouldn't be used to reroll for 30+ boyz mobs etc? Unsurprisingly those are where rerolls would help most as you would be rolling tons of dices.

Simple fact of the matter is it takes more time with rerolls. There's no way up or down of it. Oh and silly? Let's see. KMK vs knight, with reroll 1's goes to 7 wounds, with +1 to wound goes to 8 wounds. Is that 1 really THAT silly? Especially when obviously the aura would be buffed accordingly.

BTW funny how you mentioned KMK as "silly" as that's actually on the worse units to use +1 to wound for. You know where it actually would be waaaay more powerful? Basic S4 boy vs anything with T8. And yes +1 to wound would be better aura. That's why I say price the aura up. I have no qualms paying more for better ability. Games not played to the end sucks though.

tneva82 wrote:
edit: Oh drat noticed yet another NERF on stompa...Degration chart just got worse. Rather than S degrading it's now A...And since S is the one you are least going to miss...Basically by the time you get to combat your new improved A value has degraded into state of same or worse as before. And "funnily" enough if anything orks are the ones that should be least degrading rather than stompa being hurt by degration even more than say imperial knights. Ugh.

Degrading Attacks is worse than degrading Strength, but in this case they have given the Stompa two more attacks to start with so it's not until the last bracket that the Stompa has less attacks than it had in the index.

I still wonder how long it would take the enti titan weapons to kill the new stompa.

tneva82 wrote:

 deffrekka wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
I'm rather glad if they DON'T give rerolls. Those slow down. 8th ed is already slower than any edition in years. If they want boost things have rather modifiers. +1 to wound and more pricey or something. Orkz already roll tons of dices. I already am rushing things enough without even more rerolls to the mix.

+1 to wound would be silly on things on like KMK's. Reroll 1's are fine. For a battery of 5 Mek Gunz it doesnt slow down the game that much. I play Admech as well as Dark Eldar and they have rerolls coming from all over the place and it has never slowed down my turn. In fact my opponents take longer with there turns than i do with mine.

And you don't think that reroll HQ wouldn't be used to reroll for 30+ boyz mobs etc? Unsurprisingly those are where rerolls would help most as you would be rolling tons of dices.

Simple fact of the matter is it takes more time with rerolls. There's no way up or down of it. Oh and silly? Let's see. KMK vs knight, with reroll 1's goes to 7 wounds, with +1 to wound goes to 8 wounds. Is that 1 really THAT silly? Especially when obviously the aura would be buffed accordingly.

BTW funny how you mentioned KMK as "silly" as that's actually on the worse units to use +1 to wound for. You know where it actually would be waaaay more powerful? Basic S4 boy vs anything with T8. And yes +1 to wound would be better aura. That's why I say price the aura up. I have no qualms paying more for better ability. Games not played to the end sucks though.

I did mention a Boss Nob / Overseer that could reroll 1's to wound for close combat..... like how CSM have there Aspiring Champion and then i mentioned that the Mek could grant reroll 1's to wound for Mek Gunz and vehicles..... so you just agreed with what i said as i mentioned 2 possible units that could provide an aura that would be useful but affects different parts of the army.

A +1 to wound makes KMKs wound T7 and below on a 2+ and T8 on a 3+. If you had this made up character squat next to 18 Mek Guns and they were all bad moons (even though they are BS4) youd be destroying everything left right and centre. You are getting 8-9 KMKs for a Knight and around 14 for a Castellan. And even ages targets that arent knights your still going to murder everything with a +1 to wound.

Off the back of your hand how many units out there provide a +1 to wound? I can think of units that reroll 1's to wound like necron lords, lieutenants, aspiring champions (in combat), guilliman.... none add +1 to wound (although guilliman is pretty close to it with reroll fails).

Stratagem wise we have Veterans of the long war, masterful marksmenship, a couple of deathwatch stratagems vs select targets and monster hunters?

Feel free to add on those lists.

In tournaments i have attended i rarely come across knights. I have played against the BA, IG and Castellan list before and i dismantled it with my Dark Eldar. Just because its the meta doesnt mean that list is invincible. Ive seen many players use odd ball lists and rank top 5 very often as people dont expect these lists.

Trying something different is good and i imagine the Ork community will be the same, everyone here is unique in there play styles and that is an Orky trait.

I was simply providing my thoughts on how to upgrade certain parts of our army roster that doesnt make is OMG OP EVERYONE MUST SPAM AND TAKE ONLY TO TOURNAMENTS.

There have been quite a few good points made by people on this thread and the two others and its been interesting seeing their point of view and what they want to run, but there has also been some people who just instantly shut down these people and tell them how bad there ideas are and just being all negative.

That needs to stop. If you dont agree with what someone has posted be nice and leave it be, dont punish them for not being uber competitive.

Ork players are diverse, dont force them to be or play in a way they dont enjoy. Everyone has there own successes no matter how small like local tournaments or how big at GTs.

Honestly, I've had 1k points of orks die to 1 knight before... I've entered a few tournaments with speed freaks and out biggest problem I found was that we just didn't have the damage output and survivability.

I would fire my Morkanout, finally get 1 shot and role a 1 and get 1 wound after taking 1 mortal wound myself. XD They would fire like double my shots, hit them all with BS and rerolls. It just seemed in my mechanised list that they had more than I did... Was hoping this would change and my 2k points would go down to 1,500 or something so i could fit more trukks and wagon in.

 lolman1c wrote:
Honestly, I've had 1k points of orks die to 1 knight before... I've entered a few tournaments with speed freaks and out biggest problem I found was that we just didn't have the damage output and survivability.

I would fire my Morkanout, finally get 1 shot and role a 1 and get 1 wound after taking 1 mortal wound myself. XD They would fire like double my shots, hit them all with BS and rerolls. It just seemed in my mechanised list that they had more than I did... Was hoping this would change and my 2k points would go down to 1,500 or something so i could fit more trukks and wagon in.

My morkanaut is so bad in its history, the gorkanaut has always done better

 deffrekka wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

 deffrekka wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
I'm rather glad if they DON'T give rerolls. Those slow down. 8th ed is already slower than any edition in years. If they want boost things have rather modifiers. +1 to wound and more pricey or something. Orkz already roll tons of dices. I already am rushing things enough without even more rerolls to the mix.

+1 to wound would be silly on things on like KMK's. Reroll 1's are fine. For a battery of 5 Mek Gunz it doesnt slow down the game that much. I play Admech as well as Dark Eldar and they have rerolls coming from all over the place and it has never slowed down my turn. In fact my opponents take longer with there turns than i do with mine.

And you don't think that reroll HQ wouldn't be used to reroll for 30+ boyz mobs etc? Unsurprisingly those are where rerolls would help most as you would be rolling tons of dices.

Simple fact of the matter is it takes more time with rerolls. There's no way up or down of it. Oh and silly? Let's see. KMK vs knight, with reroll 1's goes to 7 wounds, with +1 to wound goes to 8 wounds. Is that 1 really THAT silly? Especially when obviously the aura would be buffed accordingly.

BTW funny how you mentioned KMK as "silly" as that's actually on the worse units to use +1 to wound for. You know where it actually would be waaaay more powerful? Basic S4 boy vs anything with T8. And yes +1 to wound would be better aura. That's why I say price the aura up. I have no qualms paying more for better ability. Games not played to the end sucks though.

I did mention a Boss Nob / Overseer that could reroll 1's to wound for close combat..... like how CSM have there Aspiring Champion and then i mentioned that the Mek could grant reroll 1's to wound for Mek Gunz and vehicles..... so you just agreed with what i said as i mentioned 2 possible units that could provide an aura that would be useful but affects different parts of the army.

A +1 to wound makes KMKs wound T7 and below on a 2+ and T8 on a 3+. If you had this made up character squat next to 18 Mek Guns and they were all bad moons (even though they are BS4) youd be destroying everything left right and centre. You are getting 8-9 KMKs for a Knight and around 14 for a Castellan. And even ages targets that arent knights your still going to murder everything with a +1 to wound.

Off the back of your hand how many units out there provide a +1 to wound? I can think of units that reroll 1's to wound like necron lords, lieutenants, aspiring champions (in combat), guilliman.... none add +1 to wound (although guilliman is pretty close to it with reroll fails).

Stratagem wise we have Veterans of the long war, masterful marksmenship, a couple of deathwatch stratagems vs select targets and monster hunters?

Feel free to add on those lists.

In tournaments i have attended i rarely come across knights. I have played against the BA, IG and Castellan list before and i dismantled it with my Dark Eldar. Just because its the meta doesnt mean that list is invincible. Ive seen many players use odd ball lists and rank top 5 very often as people dont expect these lists.

Trying something different is good and i imagine the Ork community will be the same, everyone here is unique in there play styles and that is an Orky trait.

I was simply providing my thoughts on how to upgrade certain parts of our army roster that doesnt make is OMG OP EVERYONE MUST SPAM AND TAKE ONLY TO TOURNAMENTS.

There have been quite a few good points made by people on this thread and the two others and its been interesting seeing their point of view and what they want to run, but there has also been some people who just instantly shut down these people and tell them how bad there ideas are and just being all negative.

That needs to stop. If you dont agree with what someone has posted be nice and leave it be, dont punish them for not being uber competitive.

Ork players are diverse, dont force them to be or play in a way they dont enjoy. Everyone has there own successes no matter how small like local tournaments or how big at GTs.

Kmk benfits less from modifier to wounds than boyz. That's mathematical fact that cannot be denied. It also has minimal difference to reroll 1's to wounds. That's also mathematical fact. It's also fact rerolls take more time to resolve than modifier. Only anybody who doesn't think about it even 1 second would claim otherwise.

Now do you want slower or faster method is to each. I would see more faster methods rather than rerolls. Gw loves rerolls but that doesn't make it good. Actually if gw likes something it's often opposite!

Funny that others might disagree with you and want other kinds of buffs. I'm sure you are such an special case your word is final on what kind of buffs should be applied.

Btw 18 kmk shot vs t7 with reroll 16 wounds. Kmk same target with +1 to wound 12 wounds. How it would be so ridiculous? It's worse buff than reroll for kmk vs t7!

This is big problem with people. They make claims without doing elementary school math that would show does claim hold water

Okay... welll... erm... just did a practice game with the new rules (new weapons, price and dakkadakka) for the stompa vs 2 Shadowswords.

Let's go through this mess....

Stompa: 920 points 40 wounds

vs

2 Shadowswords: 808 points 52 wounds

Turn 1: (stompa goes first)

1 damage from super gat
7 damage from deffkannon

total, 8 damage to 1 Shadow

Shadowsword turn 1:

4 damage from heavy bolters

73 wounds from the two Volcano Cannons...

-_-

We played another game when the stompa was charge range... He got 1 shadowsword down to about 10 wounds but then they both just pulled back and did 52 wounds to him.

Anyone else feel this release was a bit poop?

Not exactly a crazy month for Orks seeing how half of it wasnt even Orks.

and.. well.. not exactly a massive amount of models either.

Jacob29 wrote:
Anyone else feel this release was a bit poop?

Not exactly a crazy month for Orks seeing how half of it wasnt even Orks.

and.. well.. not exactly a massive amount of models either.

The models are more than I could have hoped for... it's just the rest of the codex needs fixing as well.

My solution to tough target is snakebite tankbustas.

2 unit of 10 with 2 squigs in each

Or

2 units of 15 with 6 squigs in each

 lolman1c wrote:
Okay... welll... erm... just did a practice game with the new rules (new weapons, price and dakkadakka) for the stompa vs 2 Shadowswords.
.

Well to be fair shadowsword is specialised big model killer while stompa is more generalist so should be matchup. But gap is still too large. New necron walker is better, costs 620 or so and is still non competive...

Btw did stompa use exploding 5 strat and bad moon trait? Probably only sensible combo.

Oh and stompa got nerfed in degrade table...wonder how gw thinks anything about stompa needed nerf

tneva82 wrote:

 lolman1c wrote:
Okay... welll... erm... just did a practice game with the new rules (new weapons, price and dakkadakka) for the stompa vs 2 Shadowswords.
.

Well to be fair shadowsword is specialised big model killer while stompa is more generalist so should be matchup. But gap is still too large. New necron walker is better, costs 620 or so and is still non competive...

Btw did stompa use exploding 5 strat and bad moon trait? Probably only sensible combo.

Oh and stompa got nerfed in degrade table...wonder how gw thinks anything about stompa needed nerf

I mean I don't think it really matters... any 2 Blade variant has more wounds, less points and does more than 7 damage to the stompa with extremely high range guns. But I think a good game would be Stompa vs the new knight. Might have to try that out later today.

 deffrekka wrote:
I just don't play like a snail

Neither do i. Good luck on opponents watching my dice roll. Doesn't help much when rules are so slow that what used to be easy 2k in 2h became impossibie.

Slower rules isn't good thing. But hey somebody who thinks buff that gives you 25% less wounds than other makes things ridiculously good...lol. worse buff making things worse. Your credibility is pretty low with that.