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Some takeaways I have not seen brought up here directly. The Bad moons stratagem is an INFANTRY unit so no stompa. In addition I am 99% sure I heard them say the blood axe trait is counts as in cover when 18 inches away (It may have been 12, but he for sure mentioned distance away). I can't go back and watch that part again to confirm as I am not subscribed to them.

If this is true that is a massive hit to blood axes and IMO puts them below the evil sunz as the T1 choice. If KFFs really do work per unit and can daisy chain + be 18 inches with a stratagem is MASSIVE. Absolutely insanely good value and required in every single list.

KMKs and the dragsta + weirdboy HQs will be auto includes for competitive orks if the points stay the same.

 TedNugent wrote:

 Hulksmash wrote:
Yeah, even based on information provided this book looks extremely solid for tournament play. Some of the things you guys are freaking out about are adorable. With the bump in CP battalions give now ork boyz are going to be sick let alone other items.

We shall see, but watching the GW design team get embarrassed in a show game they just streamed against Imperial knights ("orks never lose. They just die. Every single one of them...") was not super encouraging, bro.

Seeing the basic troop choice go up 17% doesn't encourage me.

It's a matter of interlocking all the new moving parts - strategems, clan traits and what unit synergies are available. All things we can't do right now. The one demo game we've seen from GW was a humiliating loss for the new codex orks.

Not you're bro buddy

Having met parts of the GW design team and seen them play games at the Adepticon Team Tournament I can tell you that I would take zero away from any game they play. They tried something and it didn't work but I wouldn't be discouraged by it. They just wanted to play with the big model they had.

17% increase if they didn't change anything would be fine. However they bumped the KFF to units instead of models. The Kultures are insane and generally two of any other armies abilities. You're to busy looking at the new stuff which is decent but you're ignoring the actual boosts infantry.

See above for taking your direction from the design team for competitive play. Just don't and take the information provided and start toying with stuff instead of relying on them to spoon feed you the nasty stuff you can do.

 Kap'n Krump wrote:
I'd love to try and take a orkanaut/stompa list v. knights, I think it'd be fun and fluffy, but they're SO MORK-DAMNED BAD. Even now, it would seem.

Hell, I played a game of 2500 combined marines and knights v. 4300 points of stompas about a month ago. Got completely creamed. Would have only taken down only one knight the whole game except my very last stompa exploded and killed his last 2.

It would have been nice if they had fixed, you know, something.

I still think 600pt+ titans should be kept out from matched play. The line is waffer thin on their balance which is why knights are such an issue now. I think Orkanaughts are solid, just need to be in the right list. A teliported naught from evil sunz is terrying

I really don't think the orkanauts are bad in the new codex. He was charged and creamed by a knight with the paragon gauntlet. S16 AP-4 D8 with no penalty to hit is a darned good relic, nothing except for crazy invuln saves is going to stand up to that.

PiñaColada wrote:
I really don't think the orkanauts are bad in the new codex. He was charged and creamed by a knight with the paragon gauntlet. S16 AP-4 D8 with no penalty to hit is a darned good relic, nothing except for crazy invuln saves is going to stand up to that.

Wait, that killed him and people are claiming he is bad!?

 Billagio wrote:
I find it really funny half the people here think this is going to be a solid/OP codex and the other half think its going to be trash. Complete opposite ends of the spectrum

to be fair i think a good number of us expect the codex to be midtear. we are going to have 1 or 2 builds that would be considered competition, and everything else is going to be either "meh" or "trashfire".

now whether the competitive builds are going to be "super op" or "barley passable" is till up for debate.

 Red Corsair wrote:

PiñaColada wrote:
I really don't think the orkanauts are bad in the new codex. He was charged and creamed by a knight with the paragon gauntlet. S16 AP-4 D8 with no penalty to hit is a darned good relic, nothing except for crazy invuln saves is going to stand up to that.

Wait, that killed him and people are claiming he is bad!?

To be fair, it killed him in CC when he had 6 wounds left. The rest was done from shooting but this game really didn't tell us much on the ork side of things other than that the stompa is nowhere near as points efficient as a knight.

geargutz wrote:

 Billagio wrote:
I find it really funny half the people here think this is going to be a solid/OP codex and the other half think its going to be trash. Complete opposite ends of the spectrum

to be fair i think a good number of us expect the codex to be midtear. we are going to have 1 or 2 builds that would be considered competition, and everything else is going to be either "meh" or "trashfire".

now whether the competitive builds are going to be "super op" or "barley passable" is till up for debate.

8th requires only a few things.

Durable chaf.

Mobility/board control

Early threats

This release easily has all three of those things. The kulturs still have me scratching my head. The defskulls got Iron hands +1, Salamanders +1, and the old school gladius obsec which everyone is ignoring like it isn't absurdly good just because of the other two parts. That's insane. Who cares if boyz went up a point when you gained 3 chapter traits on top of their 4 special rules

Anyone know if the orkanaut melee (or stompa, for that matter) damage went up? Because both need to.

I mean, I know the paragon gauntlet is a broken relic, and maybe not the best level to compare our stuff to, but hell. When a gallant that's a third the cost of a stompa hits more often and does more damage than a chain-choppa the size of a leman russ ........something's very, very wrong.

But stompas are str 20! That matters, right?

pretty much all knights are easily 150pts undercosted.

I agree that the titanic crap should stay out of matched play. Beating a knight isnt hard...if you tailor for it. Problem is if you tailor for facing a handful of super big things and face a swarm....yeh ded brah.
I miss the days where fielding the giant models was meant for large/narrative games, not matched play.

Seems interesting from the leaks so far- basically mediocre units combined with powerful strats and traits.

So that leaves Orks as NPEs, unless they get a kunnin' boss, at which point they bite dem overconfident foes in da ass...

Seems fluffy, although I doubt that would be intentional.

Yeah it's sad that knights exist the way they do in the game because anything even close to their close is going to be compared to them and fall short. Knights are just plain undercosted in addition to having an entire codex dedicated to them meaning more options are tailor made for them plus they are under the giant umbrella of the IMPERIUM keyword. Nothing can really stand up to them in this regard. Personally I politely decline games that feature knights because they are just anti-fun to play against and invalidate every other choice from every other army that tries to rival them.

I think that its going to be a solid codex. Some things went up in points which sucks, but I suspect when CA2018 hits the rest of the strong armies will get points increases as well, so it will even out and we look even better. Just speculation though

 Tibs Ironblood wrote:
Yeah it's sad that knights exist the way they do in the game because anything even close to their close is going to be compared to them and fall short. Knights are just plain undercosted in addition to having an entire codex dedicated to them meaning more options are tailor made for them plus they are under the giant umbrella of the IMPERIUM keyword. Nothing can really stand up to them in this regard. Personally I politely decline games that feature knights because they are just anti-fun to play against and invalidate every other choice from every other army that tries to rival them.

Yeah, I played one guy's triple knight list (2x gallants, one castellan) about 4 times with my orks and thousand boyz, and the last time I got compltely crushed I politely told him 'this is the last time I play this list.' No hard feelings, but it's just not fun to play against an knight army that makes 30" charges with 3+ invluns, supported by volcano cannons and hellblasters. Just.......I'm good.

I mean.........one knight, maybe 2 is fine, but triple+ is just too much.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

Ah but it's better right? So you're previous point was misleading? Also bikes are fast, so can get where they need to be so that they can drop whatever flexible weapons they've chosen.

Better at doing what thing? Getting blown away by a dissie while costing more points for the privilege?

Aren't they point-for-point more durable than the much loved SJD?

Dunno - when I see the datasheets and points in the flesh i'll analyze it.

S5 is much less useful than you think, particularly when it has no AP....

More useful than a bolter...

Traits aren't free for Boys, apparently. Why are you comparing a sub-optimal unit with another to try and claim that one is good? No one is taking CSM bikes. No one.

I'm comping like for like. Nobody runs bikes, because of D2 weapons. My point is Orks now have the most flexible bikes available and are able to mitigate that problem.

Uuuhhhh at Str 4 with no AP? For 24 pts a model. Slugga Boys have the same number of attacks but for 7ppm....they're just as fast with Da Jump. You're showing your lack of experience with them here.

Bikes are T5 4+ W2. Boyz are T4 6+. Of course they're going to have less attacks. Bikes are more durable and don't need Da Jump to get where they need to be, which means you can Da Jump a banner or something else or even boyz along with them while the bikes clam up the things boyz worry about. And...they have as much shooting as 30 shoota boyz.

Oh you have dark reapers? It would be a shame if I put 60 shots with a 32" effective range that hit on 5s ignoring the hit penalty and exploding for 6 dead and then charged the screen in front of me.

CSM have other options such as alliances to a particular god....

Yes, if you only want to ever run Khorne and they still won't be (3+)4+/5++/6+++ with DDD, reroll charges, and assault and charge.

You must have missed the stream. He's worse than a Daemon Prince isn't he?

He fluffed all his shooting and failed his 2+ on MW on the charge. Then got 4 damage through in total. An unbuffed DP in the same scenario averages 4.7 (boss average is 4.9).

He wouldn't have survived against a warglaive much better, either.

Honestly the guy at the end said it was his first time playing Orks. I think he saw the giant Stompa and Gorkanaut and went "That's cool" and decided to play it without really knowing the Codex.

Which to be fair, isn't great on the part of GW but it is what it is.

I do not play Orks but I am still excited about them and the codex and I will finally be restarting an Ork army with this Codex. They were my original army when I started playing back when 3rd edition dropped. Everything I have seen has me excited and feels very Orky and that's how my group plays (minus the one guy we know who is THAT GUY). I was just hoping to hear some tidbits from the stream and that's what I got.

As a Space Wolves player, I learned to really take the streams with a truckload of salt. It did not reflect our Codex very well and I was worried until I got my hands on it. I am happy with it and I am sure I will be happy with this Ork codex and the new adventure I am about to strike out on.

Evil Sunz here I come!

For what its worth, they were playing a PL game.

"My list started with a Stompa, a Gorkanaut, and a Morkanaut, but then I realized that was 120pl"

He also said that he was a new ork player, and wanted to make a Stompa list; and then afterwards, he said he still wanted to make a Stompa list work - so; can't blame it too much, the Stompa is overpriced scrap; and he was battling against Knights...

fe40k wrote:

 techsoldaten wrote:
Correct me if I'm wrong, but the Tellyporta strategy in the new Codex allows players to drop 90 Choppa Boys within 9 inches of their opponent turn 2 for 3 CP.

And this is not Codex Creep.

Rumor is 20pl worth of models.

20boyz is 9 PL, and 30boyz is 13pl.

So, at best, you're getting 20+20boyz, plus a random 2pl model.

It says a unit though, so you would have to invest 6 CP to do it on 3 30 man units.

 Billagio wrote:
Just speculation though

Pretty much everything at this point.

All we can do is be honest about whether what we are hearing is good or bad in and of itself.

For example the KFF rumor is just going to bring back 5th ed KFF being mandatory. 7 point boys negative, and so on.

But we legitimately can't know how all of that comes together until codex is in hand and we have a good SOLID read through plus games played.
Good or bad.

mhalko1 wrote:

fe40k wrote:

 techsoldaten wrote:
Correct me if I'm wrong, but the Tellyporta strategy in the new Codex allows players to drop 90 Choppa Boys within 9 inches of their opponent turn 2 for 3 CP.

And this is not Codex Creep.

Rumor is 20pl worth of models.

20boyz is 9 PL, and 30boyz is 13pl.

So, at best, you're getting 20+20boyz, plus a random 2pl model.

It says a unit though, so you would have to invest 6 CP to do it on 3 30 man units.

Did we get the exact wording? If so, can you post it?

Because 3PL to deepstrike a unit is not in-line with other codecii standards - I suppose the fact it can apply to (any?) unit gives it options, but...

Orks are going to be very CP limited - Grot farmz it is.

 Tibs Ironblood wrote:
Yeah it's sad that knights exist the way they do in the game because anything even close to their close is going to be compared to them and fall short. Knights are just plain undercosted in addition to having an entire codex dedicated to them meaning more options are tailor made for them plus they are under the giant umbrella of the IMPERIUM keyword. Nothing can really stand up to them in this regard. Personally I politely decline games that feature knights because they are just anti-fun to play against and invalidate every other choice from every other army that tries to rival them.

They could fix this in CA by taking a page from the horus heresy and saying LoW cannot be more than 25% of the points in your 2K army. As far as I'm concerned, LoW don't belong in 2K games at all, but this would still make room for those who want them.

 Togusa wrote:

They could fix this in CA by taking a page from the horus heresy and saying LoW cannot be more than 25% of the points in your 2K army. As far as I'm concerned, LoW don't belong in 2K games at all, but this would still make room for those who want them.

I agree entirely, but there's a full Knight codex out there, GW will never axe them as an army.

 TedNugent wrote:

 Billagio wrote:
Just speculation though

Pretty much everything at this point.

All we can do is be honest about whether what we are hearing is good or bad in and of itself.

For example the KFF rumor is just going to bring back 5th ed KFF being mandatory. 7 point boys negative, and so on.

But we legitimately can't know how all of that comes together until codex is in hand and we have a good SOLID read through plus games played.
Good or bad.

Agreed, the main thing that will make or break a unit is points, and we dont know a lot of those yet. Its just weird that people are on opposite ends of the spectrum about the codex while knowing the same information.

 TedNugent wrote:


But we legitimately can't know how all of that comes together until codex is in hand and we have a good SOLID read through plus games played.
Good or bad.

Solidly agreed.

Well looking at the new strats, the points for buggies and a few other things I think we will be pretty fine as an army. I'm still a bit salty over 7 ppm boys but I assume some other units will get a hike with CA2018 as well, If not I can always grumble then. The stream was well...
it was bad. Showing both that the Stompa will continue to be bad as well as the fact that Knights should never have been made available for 2,000 point games. Especially not as a stand-alone army. I'm pretty confident my planned mechanized/dreadmob list will be in a good spot though. Probably as Evil Sunz but the 3 rerolls a unit Death Skullz look pretty enticing too right now. From the rumors I was assuming it'd be 1 reroll a unit but 1 of each (hit, dmg, wound) is pretty good.

 lord_blackfang wrote:

 Togusa wrote:

They could fix this in CA by taking a page from the horus heresy and saying LoW cannot be more than 25% of the points in your 2K army. As far as I'm concerned, LoW don't belong in 2K games at all, but this would still make room for those who want them.

I agree entirely, but there's a full Knight codex out there, GW will never axe them as an army.

Depends, they could easily put such a prohibition in place and then note that certain <KEYWORDS> are exempt from it.

And then make sure every LoW, or at least every Imperial one with a recently released model gets the keyword to make it exempt

Yeah the deathskulls have a place for sure and have replaced the Bad Moonz for the shooty support unit in terms of KMK/dragsta fire support. The re-rolling for each unit (each kannon being it's own unit) is a massive boost to the firepower and the 6++ never hurt. 6++ gretchin lets go! As far a whole army I don't think they would be all that bad either. Their HQs would be that little bit better and Nobs that little bit extra killy with their klaws. I don't favor them overall however and still give that to the evil sunz because at the end of the day you want to get stuck in and they do it best. Blood Axes might have a range stipulation to their cover and can be shut down by ignore cover.

Heck I could say some decent artillery, walker and then goff skarboy jump/teleport lists being pretty decent.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

leopard wrote:

 lord_blackfang wrote:

 Togusa wrote:

They could fix this in CA by taking a page from the horus heresy and saying LoW cannot be more than 25% of the points in your 2K army. As far as I'm concerned, LoW don't belong in 2K games at all, but this would still make room for those who want them.

I agree entirely, but there's a full Knight codex out there, GW will never axe them as an army.

Depends, they could easily put such a prohibition in place and then note that certain <KEYWORDS> are exempt from it.

And then make sure every LoW, or at least every Imperial one with a recently released model gets the keyword to make it exempt

Yeah because all those non-imperial titans sure are a problem right now lol.

Did anyone else catch them say grots are 5 pts per model on stream?

 lord_blackfang wrote:
Did anyone else catch them say grots are 5 pts per model on stream?

Even if I did I would see a hearing aid specialist before I would believe that.

My main takeaway from watching the game was: nothing. We saw some knights massacre a kind of a joke list, which they did without breaking a sweat. It tells us nothing at all about the state of orks in competition excet not to take stompas. We can be sure that they got half the new rules wrong, too... and probably some of the old ones.

Usually they manage to find people who play like they've never used their armies before for all these streams. This time the knight player actually looked like maybe he'd got a clue what he was doing, so what was already a complete missmatch became a three-turn tabling. A 400 point knight Errant killed a Morkanaught and a Stompa with the paragon gauntlet, and the orks didn't really have anything else to start with.

The interesting thing is going to see the interaction of the new rules with actually competitive lists. There are already ork lists that can do well in tournaments. They will be better with the codex, in ways that we don't really know yet.

So I know it's really boring, but the only option is to wait until you've got the book in your hand and play some games with it. Or let a couple of months go by and see what (if anything) does well at tournaments.