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 TedNugent wrote:

So you could conceivably oneshot a knight. For 425 points, plus grot shields, for however many CPs it takes to pop both more dakka and showing off after a mob up on 25 lootas.

I think you've answered your own question there. You have a 44% chance to get enough shots to 1 round a knight.

If you roll 2 shots it will put the knight at half health with 11 to 12 wounds.

Two Las Preds w/ BobbyG - 11 wounds
3 Killshot Las Preds - 15 wounds
3 Killshot Las Preds w/ BobbyG - 18.6 wounds
3 Lance Ravagers - 5.2
3 Lance Ravagers w/ Doom - 7.9

Either you're achieving the result through CP, spells, or auras - pick your poison.

Furthermore - Lootas are nearly undiminishable while the grot shield is up. You'll have a hard time finding a unit in this game that has that same advantage.

 Jidmah wrote:
Well, in that case, they could just add "other" to the rule.

I really doubt they have given it any thought at all.

I think they gave it plenty of thought. Something along the lines of "we need to sell the new trike, so we can't give its unique rule to some old model people have".

And for gak and giggles -

A Castellan on max shots with Cawl's Wrath does 23 (with missile; more depending on house).

tneva82 wrote:


Simple. They are tougher. 10 gets wiped out when somebody looks at them with evil eye. 2 units of 30 with runtherd making morale non-issue? That actually starts to be tough one to remove without it feeling like waste of points for enemy to remove S2 T2 no real damage output buggers.

Now albeit you can have 10 block units as well. 2x30 and as many 10 strong as I can fit(up to max 120 I own) is common feature in my lists.

(oh and for added flexibility 30 creates one hell of a long wall to set up with da jump if you feel like creating 62" long "you shall not pass!" area(well not pass without killing them anyway)

Genuine question- why is 3 units of ten less durable than one unit of 30? Is it just ease of buffing with auras?

 tvih wrote:


At any rate some actually like using a variety of units and don't even want to paint 200 models for a 2000p list, or buy a million more troop boxes just to get more CP. I was really hoping this codex would make other means than spamming troops viable, but I guess not. don't really play competitively for that and other reasons. Not really specific to this codex but they in general went too over the top with this CP stuff. What started out as an interesting minor gameplay mechanism has turned out into an all out CP-farming fest. Reminiscent of the formation fiasco. Chasing the ever-changing perfect meta lists is far too much for my wallet.

You don't need to spam troops. It's just something you need if you want to be bleeding edge effective with CP hungry units.

20 grots, 2 x 10 boyz, and 2 HQs will get you 5 CP. The grots can be shields and the boyz can help guard Mek Gunz. The rest of your army can be in their face.

A couple Deffrolla Battlewagons or Gorknauts deepstriking (4 CP each to deepstrike and then charge) plus buggies, dreads, or whatever else you want should do just fine in a non-competitive setting (and actually pretty brutal - most people can't handle a T8 walker on their front lines very easily). Jump a Big Mek out and start fixing them as you crunch their faces.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Haighus wrote:

tneva82 wrote:


Simple. They are tougher. 10 gets wiped out when somebody looks at them with evil eye. 2 units of 30 with runtherd making morale non-issue? That actually starts to be tough one to remove without it feeling like waste of points for enemy to remove S2 T2 no real damage output buggers.

Now albeit you can have 10 block units as well. 2x30 and as many 10 strong as I can fit(up to max 120 I own) is common feature in my lists.

(oh and for added flexibility 30 creates one hell of a long wall to set up with da jump if you feel like creating 62" long "you shall not pass!" area(well not pass without killing them anyway)

Genuine question- why is 3 units of ten less durable than one unit of 30? Is it just ease of buffing with auras?

Let's say I shoot each unit of 10 enough to cause a morale test on each of them. If they all fail then the Runtherd causes them to lose D3 each.

If I did the same number of wound to a blob of 30 and they fail they only lose D3 once.

Now the likelihood of that happening is pretty low so, it's not usually a big deal unless you have no Runtherd at all.

 Haighus wrote:

tneva82 wrote:


Simple. They are tougher. 10 gets wiped out when somebody looks at them with evil eye. 2 units of 30 with runtherd making morale non-issue? That actually starts to be tough one to remove without it feeling like waste of points for enemy to remove S2 T2 no real damage output buggers.

Now albeit you can have 10 block units as well. 2x30 and as many 10 strong as I can fit(up to max 120 I own) is common feature in my lists.

(oh and for added flexibility 30 creates one hell of a long wall to set up with da jump if you feel like creating 62" long "you shall not pass!" area(well not pass without killing them anyway)

Genuine question- why is 3 units of ten less durable than one unit of 30? Is it just ease of buffing with auras?

Key being runtherd there(not sure does warboss still provide same effect). Grots have LD4. That's laughably small. If you have 3x10 enemy will direct some fire to each killing most but not all and then come morale phase you are failing morale test on every unit you have. With 3x10 that's 3d3 dead gretchin. When they are in one blob that's 1d3.

Those extra casualties add up fast. Even with basic boyz. Even in index version with 6x30 boyz the morale actually plays surprisingly big role when opponent learned out to hit up multiple nearby squads hard enough. Losing 20 ork per squad resulted in additional moraletests. Even with warboss that adds up to multiple units losing extra guys at surprising frequency. And all attempts with just 10 strong grot squads resulted in annoying amount of extra casualties constantly. It's too easy for opponents to ensure they spread out damage to maximize # of units that fail morale test. Especially with unit like grot that has very bad LD...

Oh and easier to buff indeed. 30 grots you can cover far wider and keep the unit under role. Did you know you could use 30 strong unit to basically wall your entire backfield from say space wolves Until enemy kills all but last handful? You can cover the entire 72" board and if you remove casualties you don't have to keep them in coherency(That's when you move. Not when you remove casualties). 1 model causes 18" radius "no deepstrike" so spacing models 18" gapped means your backfield is safe of space wolf type of abilities...Albeit too many casualties and your unit becomes immobile group as they can't form up coherency again but they have done their job then.

For these reasons 30 strong gretchins I tend to include squad or two. Just too useful. Of course I also have 10 strong squads! And more so now that boyz got killed off except for deep strike. 2 battallions=6 troops. 180 boyz for deep strike is too expensive point and CP wise so grots it is!

tneva82 wrote:
How little troops you have? 3 troop choices alone gives you 8CP. I would at least go to shop and get 3 boxes of grots. Not THAT expensive and they give you them 13CP to begin with while being good at objective grabbing etc. Sure they die easily but at least enemy has to spend firepower clearing 90 pts total. 6 CP is super thin(I'm still struggling to see how you come with that many. Battallion+1 extra relic comes to 7 CP. Aux detachment? What you need that for?)

(and where we have gone if 30 grots is considered spamming)

It's "spamming" in terms of model count compared to my marine lists for example which traditionally have had roughly around or less than 30 infantry models in total even though all told I have more marines than orks (just not nearly all of them painted). So 30 models just for "chaff" is kind of a lot for me (especially since I'm such a slow painter). For my orks I have about 60 boyz and 10 grots for troops. That makes one somewhat proper battalion and so 5 CP, possibly add in a heavy support detachment (I have many units for that slot) and it's 6 CP from detachments like I originally said. Plus of course the baseline 3 CP which I didn't include in the figure.

As for the lootas specifically, I checked and I indeed have 4 boxes, so a maximum of 16 deffgun models. Used to have two more boxes back in the day, but they got sold. Might sneak in a unit of 5 somewhat painted ones into my first hodge podge test list, not that they'd achieve much.

so a while back i posted some things i noticed from watching youtube codex reviews. i may or may not have the codex so i noticed there was one mistake so here is the correction.

nerf=tankbustas (8pt) reroll tohit of 1s instead on failed hits (possible mistake)

this was a mistake, tankbustas still get to reroll all failed to hits. my bad.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
just started a new thread for new codex strategies talk
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766225.page#10215663
you welcome to bring the tactics discussion there for now.
let us WAAAAAAGH!

I got my copy of Speed Freeks this week, and just opened it. Components look good, and the rules look like it will be a fun game. Unfortunately my copy is missing the data cards. Anyone else have this problem? Is GW decent at fixing issues like this?

 CptJake wrote:
I got my copy of Speed Freeks this week, and just opened it. Components look good, and the rules look like it will be a fun game. Unfortunately my copy is missing the data cards. Anyone else have this problem? Is GW decent at fixing issues like this?

Very. Drop them a line and they'll sort you out.

 Binabik15 wrote:
I like stratagems giving back "new tactics" and all, but some things should've stayed special rules, IMO. That existed years ago already. Bilowing Smoke for bikes at least. Maybe Grot Shield.

I'm just really unhappy with stratagems which should be changes to the model's appearance, but are instead attainable with CP. I think it breaks immersion, and creates confusion.

The big offenders, for Orks, are Ardboys and Skarboys.


Why wouldn't a unit of Skarboys be visually noticeable to the opponent? Why would they look exactly like every other ork unit? If this was a unit upgrade option, then the modeler could do something to make his Skarboys visually distinct, since they were always going to be that way (and if you chose not to, it would be no different than the current situation).

Ardboys is even worse. These orks have additional armor plates! This is an easy unit upgrade to model (given that orks come with helmeted and unhelmeted heads, and shoulder plates). Why would your opponent need to remember which unit you spent a CP on to get a better save? It should be a unit upgrade that you can purchase. Modelers could represent it as they see fit, and players who didn't want to do so could handle it the exact way they do with this strategem now.

I'm super glad the options are still there (since I have my unit of Goff chain-choppa wielding Skarboys and my up-armored unit of Ard Boys from previous editions), but I feel that taking wargear options and making them abstract game purchases weakens the appeal of a miniature wargame.

so ... am I getting it correct that a 45pt mek gun can dish one 48" s8 ap-2 d6 autohit that reroll dmg on skimmerz, and it ain't broken?

 aracersss wrote:
so ... am I getting it correct that a 45pt mek gun can dish one 48" s8 ap-2 d6 autohit that reroll dmg on skimmerz, and it ain't broken?

Not as broken as the one that gives 1-1/6 hits at 48" for "strength" 2d6 ap-4 d6, and 31 points.

 aracersss wrote:
so ... am I getting it correct that a 45pt mek gun can dish one 48" s8 ap-2 d6 autohit that reroll dmg on skimmerz, and it ain't broken?

Against most targets, it's comparable to an astartes missile launcher with Gulliman re-rolls. It's only better if -1 to hit is involved.

One auto-hitting shot sounds much better than it is.

 Jidmah wrote:

 aracersss wrote:
so ... am I getting it correct that a 45pt mek gun can dish one 48" s8 ap-2 d6 autohit that reroll dmg on skimmerz, and it ain't broken?

Against most targets, it's comparable to an astartes missile launcher with Gulliman re-rolls. It's only better if -1 to hit is involved.

One auto-hitting shot sounds much better than it is.

it already sounds broken when you think you can have 5 of them for 225pts only ... ma' skimmerz are totaled

About as broken as a unit of devastators with full re-rolls.

When shooting 5, you wound 3.33, 2.22 get past armor.

5 Missile launchers near gulliman hit 4.44, wound 3.47, and 2.3 past armor.

It's basically a lascannon that's better at shooting vehicles with fly and worse at shooting vehicles without.
Lascannons are not overpowered.

 aracersss wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:

 aracersss wrote:
so ... am I getting it correct that a 45pt mek gun can dish one 48" s8 ap-2 d6 autohit that reroll dmg on skimmerz, and it ain't broken?

Against most targets, it's comparable to an astartes missile launcher with Gulliman re-rolls. It's only better if -1 to hit is involved.

One auto-hitting shot sounds much better than it is.

it already sounds broken when you think you can have 5 of them for 225pts only ... ma' skimmerz are totaled

Good - maybe people won't take so many or rely on stacking minus to hit as much.

Codex and minis are out now, so this thread has served it's purpose.

Further discussion in the appropriate board then folks.