Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I really hope Outlanders doesn't see us get 4 books in a year, one for the Reds, one for the Ratskins, one for the Scavvies and one for the Spyrers.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
I really hope Outlanders doesn't see us get 4 books in a year, one for the Reds, one for the Ratskins, one for the Scavvies and one for the Spyrers.

I think they've suggested Outlanders as a unified concept probably won't happen first, if at all. Certain things from it will happen, I am sure, but some of the Guild stuff has already been shown in concept and it has been made to seem a lot of that will come before any Outlander-analogous stuff.

 Gobbla wrote:
, I'm not one of you young, impatient, participation-prize generation that wants it all, and wants it right now.

Those prizes were invented and handed out by your generation because you fragile boomers could not stand the idea of your spawn not winning.
Now you mock them for your own actions and we inherited a world ruined by your selling out of your grandparents sacrifices to build up unions and a strong middle class in exchange for a pat on the head and a little flag to wave.

But you are spot on calling out the product model. It’s garbage.

 usernamesareannoying wrote:
So after collecting all 4 books and having read none of them yet i was just wondering if the rules are as daunting as they seem?

Really?
Sit down and read.
Daunting by who's standards?

Are the books lots of repetition, add ons, updates or something else entirely?

They were trying to have "everything" self contained to play BUT are releasing new product so does tend to be a bit of a mix doing it that way.

I think I'm just having some overload.

Hard to do when you have not read the rules.
Read one word at a time.
The new Necromunda seems simple in comparison to the old (mind it is "easy" for me since I have known and played the game for literally over a decade: published 1995).

This is not a disaster, they got product out and did not completely drop the ball with the rules but it may not have been as well supported a launch we would have liked.

At least they did not pull a scale change like old Inquisitor (54mm) or Titanicus (8mm).

 Strg Alt wrote:
Kill-team will be buried and forgotten in one year much like SWA. Necromunda on the other hand will last another twenty years even without support from GW.

SWA was launched at a bad time. I still think it's a great idea, and it was a good litmus test for 8th edition. That said, it landed just as 7th was dying and all the talk was around 8th. Trying to put out a boxed game when people were soaking up every 8th leak they could get their hands on and ramping up for 8th was just bad timing.

Necromunda, however, completely and totally bombed at my local GW. I walked through my local GW to see if they had anything Necromunda (including the core game) as I wanted to give it a shot... nothing Necromunda was on the shelves... not a thing. I even asked the manager something like, "Did Necromunda just not take off at all here?" He emphatically replied, "Not at all."

I think it all has to do with your LGS's meta. If there are more Skirmish gamers there, then you're probably going to see SWA still played as well as Necromunda. My store, on the other hand, you'll see them play the occasional Blood Bowl game or more often a Shadespire game, but the vast majority of what goes on in that store is full 40K or AoS games. There really isn't any in between.

At least at my local GW store, I've been burned SO MANY TIMES by buying boxed games, rulesets for skirmish style games, new models for them, and taking the long hours to paint them just the way I want them only to play maybe once (if I'm lucky) before it just dies. That annoys me to no end.

That said, I have just recently married and have a two year old stepson, so my time to paint and play has dropped dramatically. So, I'm shooting for Skirmish style games regardless. I'm truly hoping that, without too much direct effort from me, I can get some skirmish style games being played locally to make it much easier for me to play.

SG

 ServiceGames wrote:

 Strg Alt wrote:
Kill-team will be buried and forgotten in one year much like SWA. Necromunda on the other hand will last another twenty years even without support from GW.

SWA was launched at a bad time. I still think it's a great idea, and it was a good litmus test for 8th edition. That said, it landed just as 7th was dying and all the talk was around 8th. Trying to put out a boxed game when people were soaking up every 8th leak they could get their hands on and ramping up for 8th was just bad timing.

Necromunda, however, completely and totally bombed at my local GW. I walked through my local GW to see if they had anything Necromunda (including the core game) as I wanted to give it a shot... nothing Necromunda was on the shelves... not a thing. I even asked the manager something like, "Did Necromunda just not take off at all here?" He emphatically replied, "Not at all."

I think it all has to do with your LGS's meta. If there are more Skirmish gamers there, then you're probably going to see SWA still played as well as Necromunda. My store, on the other hand, you'll see them play the occasional Blood Bowl game or more often a Shadespire game, but the vast majority of what goes on in that store is full 40K or AoS games. There really isn't any in between.

At least at my local GW store, I've been burned SO MANY TIMES by buying boxed games, rulesets for skirmish style games, new models for them, and taking the long hours to paint them just the way I want them only to play maybe once (if I'm lucky) before it just dies. That annoys me to no end.

That said, I have just recently married and have a two year old stepson, so my time to paint and play has dropped dramatically. So, I'm shooting for Skirmish style games regardless. I'm truly hoping that, without too much direct effort from me, I can get some skirmish style games being played locally to make it much easier for me to play.

SG

Beginners won´t invest in mass battle systems anymore. It is just too expensive. Even I wouldn´t recommend to do it. The way to go are therefore skirmish games. What are SWA and Kill-Team? Poor disguised 40K clones to ease the way into playing full blown 40K. In addiiton, they try to sell you overpriced plastic terrain crap which shouldn´t be around anyway. I don´t know how many years ago I have seen the last forest or hill on a store 40K table.
These two games don´t have any meat on their bones like Necromunda. That´s why Necromunda still has to this day a very solid fanbase. Just go over to yaktribe and see for yourself. Do you think SWA and Kill-Team will have such a devout following in twenty years without support? Well, it´s more likely that Squats will be reintroduced to 40K.
Besides that, GW store managers are not allowed to push Necromunda in the way they have to push 40K & AoS. Therefore new Necromunda stuff won´t hit the store shelves but is only available via online store.

It'll be dead not long from now.
Train wrecks never last long. It's only lasted this long because fans won't speak out about its poor handling.
GW CAN DO NO WRONG!!!

 Strg Alt wrote:
Beginners won´t invest in mass battle systems anymore. It is just too expensive. Even I wouldn´t recommend to do it. The way to go are therefore skirmish games. What are SWA and Kill-Team? Poor disguised 40K clones to ease the way into playing full blown 40K.

I think SWA was a way to ease people into the dramatic rule changes between 7th and 8th. Either way, I think it still has a lot of potential to it.

My GW's meta seems to be centered around 40K and AoS (and this is the players not the manager pushing certain products). I rarely hear about and almost never have seen anything other than the full 40K and AoS being played. I *think* Silver Tower was played two or three times at my store, and one of them was when I brought my copy of the game to introduce people to it. When it comes to games like AoS Skirmish, Necromunda, SWA, Kill Team, etc., my store will usually have a tournament (small prize donated by a player at the end of it) to kick things off. That tournament will run, someone will win, and the game is never even heard from again in the store. Supposedly Necromunda just completely bombed at my local store, and SWA, Kill Team, AoS Skirmish, they had one tournament for each, and after that... poof into nothingness.

See, with me, I like to have about four or five (or more) Kill Team's ready before going in to play a game of something like Kill Team or SWA. So, I take my time, pick out models I want, paint them the way I want, put a lot of time and detail into them over about a month period. By the time that month of getting ready to play the game, there's no one left playing it anymore. It's really depressing for me.

I'd love to pick up the box set of Necromunda as well as a Van Saar box to get started. Even if I had the money to do all of that when it launched (assuming Van Saar were out then), I would have taken my time painting all three gangs, then when I had gotten to my store, even if it had taken off, it wouldn't be there anymore.

All that said, Escalation Leagues tend to take off and fly high at that store. Yes, they will eventually thin out and possibly die before they reach the 2000 point mark, but the first few months go well as people move from maybe just an HQ to an HQ and Troops, then they look forward to being able to add their first transport when they reach maybe the 500 point mark, etc.

 Strg Alt wrote:
In addiiton, they try to sell you overpriced plastic terrain crap which shouldn't be around anyway. I don´t know how many years ago I have seen the last forest or hill on a store 40K table.

I currently have zero terrain, no table to play on, etc. I lived maybe about 1.5 miles away from my closest GW store until I got married. I'm not complaining at all, but it's now more like a 45 to 50 minute drive to anywhere that plays or sells Warhammer anything. So, the idea of having my own table so that I can invite friends over to play is very appealing. The Necromunda terrain as well as the Kill Team terrain would be wonderful to have. I would have absolutely loved to have the SWA terrain as well had it not been produced in such small quantities at that price. As far as hills and trees go, you are right. There are very few of those. That said, I think that's because GW has hills built into their game boards (though they are very expensive). Trees... depends on the type of game you are playing. There are trees for Sylvaneth armies as well as Death I believe. And, maybe a few for the Death World Forest?

tl;dr - Skirmish games are either dead on arrival or die within a month after hitting my local GW. The main AoS and 40K games, expensive and time consuming as they may be, are the ones that really seem to flourish. While I love my wife and stepson more than any piece of plastic, the lack of Skirmish games makes it tough for me to find time to play.

SG

 ServiceGames wrote:

At least at my local GW store, I've been burned SO MANY TIMES by buying boxed games, rulesets for skirmish style games, new models for them, and taking the long hours to paint them just the way I want them only to play maybe once (if I'm lucky) before it just dies. That annoys me to no end.

After the test of time, we know what boxed games are going to last or not. I don't think SW:A is going to last.

Necromunda and Bloow Bowl are provene to last. The same models you painted in the late 80's or 90's can be used today with moden rules BB2016, N17, as is! You won't get more certainty than that when it comes to guaranteed play time with the minis you spent time painting. Even in the big games I imagine there are some old models no longer usable.

 ServiceGames wrote:

Necromunda, however, completely and totally bombed at my local GW. I walked through my local GW to see if they had anything Necromunda (including the core game) as I wanted to give it a shot... nothing Necromunda was on the shelves... not a thing. I even asked the manager something like, "Did Necromunda just not take off at all here?" He emphatically replied, "Not at all."

What products you'll find on GW shelves are determined by their economic company policy, what they want to push. I don't have a local GW (closest one is 5 hour drive away), but my logal gaming store still got Necromunda on the shelf. Their shelf policy is obviously determined by coolness.

Baxx wrote:
What products you'll find on GW shelves are determined by their economic company policy, what they want to push.

From what I gathered (in not so many words) from the GW store manager is that rather than sending the same product out to all GW stores like they used to (based on what they wanted to push at that time as you mentioned), they now take a look at what sells in that particular store. Then, they use that data to decide what to send the store to stock on their shelves. At my local store, Shadespire seems to be pretty popular, so you'll find the core game and every expansion hanging on the wall. No problem walking in and buying one. That said, since Necromunda just didn't do anything for that store, no Necromunda stuff is shipped to that store... as in none. Last time I went into the other LGS near me (still like 50 mins or so), I was with my wife and son. My wife was nice enough to let me run in, grab a box of Rubric Marines (for Kill Team) and a couple of paints. So, rather than make them sit in the car forever while I looked around, I scanned the wall, found a box of Rubrics, found the paints, grabbed the Thousand Sons Blue and Ahriman Blue I needed, walked up, paid for them, and left. So, I honestly don't know if they have any Necromunda stuff at that store.

I do know that if I wanted to get all of the Necromunda stuff, I could order it today off the website (or wait until Wed when the store opens so that they get the sale) and have the core game, all additional gangs that have been released, and all four Gang War books in the store with no shipping cost by like Thursday or Saturday (depending on when I ordered it). I don't think the other LGS can guarantee that speed on delivery at no delivery cost. But, all of that that's like $300+ now, and seeing that there's absolutely no one interested at the game store I usually frequent, I can't bring myself to even attempt to convince my wife to let me buy it all.

Yes, there's a chance that I'll be able to get back into tabletop wargaming in full in a few years when my son is 5 or 6. He may get interested in building his own army. But, if my wife and I decide to have another one, it'll be longer. Now, again, I don't mind this at all as my wife and stepson come before any piece of plastic. But, the best thing for me would be able to find a group of people who just want to play Skirmish games. Scenery would be tough, but I could pack up probably six or seven kill teams just in the GW Skirmish case. And, if I carry the Crusade Case with me, I could probably fit five or six kill teams, three or four Necromunda Gangs, and probably 1000 points of 40K and 1000 points of AoS. But again, unless it's Blood Bowl or Shadespire, there's no one that I know at my store that would even attempt to play. I mean, if I could afford to buy everything N17 and bring it into my local store teaching them how to play as well, there's a chance we might get more interest. But, that'd take me being in that store multiple nights each week and probably all day Saturday and Sunday which defeats the purpose of spending time with my new family.

SG

 ServiceGames wrote:

 Strg Alt wrote:
Beginners won´t invest in mass battle systems anymore. It is just too expensive. Even I wouldn´t recommend to do it. The way to go are therefore skirmish games. What are SWA and Kill-Team? Poor disguised 40K clones to ease the way into playing full blown 40K.

I think SWA was a way to ease people into the dramatic rule changes between 7th and 8th. Either way, I think it still has a lot of potential to it.

My GW's meta seems to be centered around 40K and AoS (and this is the players not the manager pushing certain products). I rarely hear about and almost never have seen anything other than the full 40K and AoS being played. I *think* Silver Tower was played two or three times at my store, and one of them was when I brought my copy of the game to introduce people to it. When it comes to games like AoS Skirmish, Necromunda, SWA, Kill Team, etc., my store will usually have a tournament (small prize donated by a player at the end of it) to kick things off. That tournament will run, someone will win, and the game is never even heard from again in the store. Supposedly Necromunda just completely bombed at my local store, and SWA, Kill Team, AoS Skirmish, they had one tournament for each, and after that... poof into nothingness.

See, with me, I like to have about four or five (or more) Kill Team's ready before going in to play a game of something like Kill Team or SWA. So, I take my time, pick out models I want, paint them the way I want, put a lot of time and detail into them over about a month period. By the time that month of getting ready to play the game, there's no one left playing it anymore. It's really depressing for me.

I'd love to pick up the box set of Necromunda as well as a Van Saar box to get started. Even if I had the money to do all of that when it launched (assuming Van Saar were out then), I would have taken my time painting all three gangs, then when I had gotten to my store, even if it had taken off, it wouldn't be there anymore.

All that said, Escalation Leagues tend to take off and fly high at that store. Yes, they will eventually thin out and possibly die before they reach the 2000 point mark, but the first few months go well as people move from maybe just an HQ to an HQ and Troops, then they look forward to being able to add their first transport when they reach maybe the 500 point mark, etc.

 Strg Alt wrote:
In addiiton, they try to sell you overpriced plastic terrain crap which shouldn't be around anyway. I don´t know how many years ago I have seen the last forest or hill on a store 40K table.

I currently have zero terrain, no table to play on, etc. I lived maybe about 1.5 miles away from my closest GW store until I got married. I'm not complaining at all, but it's now more like a 45 to 50 minute drive to anywhere that plays or sells Warhammer anything. So, the idea of having my own table so that I can invite friends over to play is very appealing. The Necromunda terrain as well as the Kill Team terrain would be wonderful to have. I would have absolutely loved to have the SWA terrain as well had it not been produced in such small quantities at that price. As far as hills and trees go, you are right. There are very few of those. That said, I think that's because GW has hills built into their game boards (though they are very expensive). Trees... depends on the type of game you are playing. There are trees for Sylvaneth armies as well as Death I believe. And, maybe a few for the Death World Forest?

tl;dr - Skirmish games are either dead on arrival or die within a month after hitting my local GW. The main AoS and 40K games, expensive and time consuming as they may be, are the ones that really seem to flourish. While I love my wife and stepson more than any piece of plastic, the lack of Skirmish games makes it tough for me to find time to play.

SG

The thing about terrain is that it costs a tiny fraction of GW costs, if you take the effort to build it yourself. There were ideas and instructions in the first cityfight ruleset how to construct your own stuff. But sadly this is a craft which most of today´s hobbyists are unaware of.
Your run of the mill 40K players in the stores are vets who have been playing the game for years and not beginners.

 Strg Alt wrote:
The thing about terrain is that it costs a tiny fraction of GW costs, if you take the effort to build it yourself. There were ideas and instructions in the first cityfight ruleset how to construct your own stuff. But sadly this is a craft which most of today´s hobbyists are unaware of.
Your run of the mill 40K players in the stores are vets who have been playing the game for years and not beginners.

I've seen the Trash Terrain videos up on YouTube, but I haven't seen anything about setting up Terrain that's as detailed or fitting to the 40K or AoS Universe as what GW sells. I'm sure there's much less expensive terrain out there that would serve the same goals. But, no one has pointed me to them.

SG

Necromunda was never a game that filled all the tables in the room. It's a offshoot of a much larger game. And, most 40K players aren't Necromunda players. Or, vice versa. The LGS might promote it. Or, not. But, mostly it's a small group of like-minded enthusiasts who form and play in a campaign. Usually takes a dedicated guy to gather them and run the thing.

 ServiceGames wrote:

 Strg Alt wrote:
The thing about terrain is that it costs a tiny fraction of GW costs, if you take the effort to build it yourself. There were ideas and instructions in the first cityfight ruleset how to construct your own stuff. But sadly this is a craft which most of today´s hobbyists are unaware of.
Your run of the mill 40K players in the stores are vets who have been playing the game for years and not beginners.

I've seen the Trash Terrain videos up on YouTube, but I haven't seen anything about setting up Terrain that's as detailed or fitting to the 40K or AoS Universe as what GW sells. I'm sure there's much less expensive terrain out there that would serve the same goals. But, no one has pointed me to them.

SG

Trash? No, all the stuff you need is available from your local home improvement store. There are a lot of them in Germany and you don´t have to rummage in your trash can to gather any parts for your project.

Though, to be fair, packing material often has neat shapes that suggest uses as terrain.

Maybe it's just me.

At our GW-Store here in Germany you can buy all the Necromunda-Stuff you'd like. And of course I have used it everytime. I literally have every gang but the Genestealers. Unfortunately I am lazy as hell - not a single model is painted/finished. And I refuse to play a campaign with unpainted models.
The game itself is so much fun. We played several testgames and it feels very similar to the original game.
The main problem is indeed, that the main-houses have been missing for too long. We wanted to play from the beginning. But only with Escher or Goliath? No, thank you...

With Warhammer Fest right near my place, I could even buy some hired guns. I am poor now. ^^ But I hope, it will get better now.

 ServiceGames wrote:


That said, I have just recently married and have a two year old stepson, so my time to paint and play has dropped dramatically. So, I'm shooting for Skirmish style games regardless. I'm truly hoping that, without too much direct effort from me, I can get some skirmish style games being played locally to make it much easier for me to play.

SG

There are others like you in your area.... many other...find them, free them..... together you can rule the game store!

Forewarning: Necromunda is not a game you play with super-competitive types, WAAC players, 'TFG', or the 'Git Gud M8' type of people. In fact- I'd honestly say it's a game you gather your buddies up and go in on together to play. Otherwise a campaign isn't going to be much fun.

There's no FAQ that I am aware of, or wasn't he last time I played- some people had questions answered about certain things, but if you get in there with the people who treat GW's official printed word in rulebooks and FAQ's as the Pax Imperialis and Lectivio Divinitatus, and all other sources of information may as well be chipmunk farts in a windstorm? Well, get ready for some ridiculously broken stuff and a game that's gonna last about 10 minutes. And you're gonna hate it.

The game has flaws, but it's not 'Matched Play' 40k. It's simply a fast and loose game with a good helping of rules with a few things here and there that either aren't clear or are buried in one of the five books (and you want the updated version of said rule, too). It's not as fast and loose as, say, 'Narrative Kill Team' where you're adding silly rules as you go- but you aren't going to be able to remember every rule for everything, you're going to go insane trying to find out which of the five books has this specific rule, and it might just be one of those rules that doesn't make any sense at all when you do find it. So you improvise, have fun, move along.

In all honesty? If you can't sit and play a game where you're just goofing off and laughing at the antics taking place in a game- and your opponent forgets a rule and you can't just say 'let's do what makes sense and go with it'? You'll wanna stay away from Necromunda for the sake of your own enjoyment and everyone else's, to. Not being jerk, that's just the way it is. It doesn't sit well with a lot of competitive or 'by the book' types because of what it is. Not because it sucks, but because it's just not that kind of game.

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:
Forewarning: Necromunda is not a game you play with super-competitive types, WAAC players, 'TFG', or the 'Git Gud M8' type of people. In fact- I'd honestly say it's a game you gather your buddies up and go in on together to play. Otherwise a campaign isn't going to be much fun.

There's no FAQ that I am aware of, or wasn't he last time I played- some people had questions answered about certain things, but if you get in there with the people who treat GW's official printed word in rulebooks and FAQ's as the Pax Imperialis and Lectivio Divinitatus, and all other sources of information may as well be chipmunk farts in a windstorm? Well, get ready for some ridiculously broken stuff and a game that's gonna last about 10 minutes. And you're gonna hate it.

The game has flaws, but it's not 'Matched Play' 40k. It's simply a fast and loose game with a good helping of rules with a few things here and there that either aren't clear or are buried in one of the five books (and you want the updated version of said rule, too). It's not as fast and loose as, say, 'Narrative Kill Team' where you're adding silly rules as you go- but you aren't going to be able to remember every rule for everything, you're going to go insane trying to find out which of the five books has this specific rule, and it might just be one of those rules that doesn't make any sense at all when you do find it. So you improvise, have fun, move along.

In all honesty? If you can't sit and play a game where you're just goofing off and laughing at the antics taking place in a game- and your opponent forgets a rule and you can't just say 'let's do what makes sense and go with it'? You'll wanna stay away from Necromunda for the sake of your own enjoyment and everyone else's, to. Not being jerk, that's just the way it is. It doesn't sit well with a lot of competitive or 'by the book' types because of what it is. Not because it sucks, but because it's just not that kind of game.

I think you are correct, which is part of the reason that this game has just been DoA in my local area. The rules are so long, convoluted, and expensive that most of the casual gamers in my area just cannot be bothered to deal with it. If the rules were tighter but still as expensive I think it would have done better as the more power gaming focused players are already used to paying out to buy the latest and greatest.

 vonjankmon wrote:
I think you are correct, which is part of the reason that this game has just been DoA in my local area. The rules are so long, convoluted, and expensive that most of the casual gamers in my area just cannot be bothered to deal with it. If the rules were tighter but still as expensive I think it would have done better as the more power gaming focused players are already used to paying out to buy the latest and greatest.

The rules have their flaws, and it's easy enough to get a compiled version 'out there in the wild of the internet', and it's structured much better and often updated. The books are good for the visual aids inside. Even then, you might not even need them.

Playing with Competitive People in Necromunda for me just does not work. That's the kind of group that ends up with some of the most rickshaw conversions, models that stay grey, and gang lists that come out quite obviously broken because 'rules as intended' and 'common sense' may as well be heretical phrases. We still have an individual that simply couldn't process exactly why he wasn't invited to play in our campaign. I'll give you a hint- he got a box of models and spent the next day or so, flipping through the book and on the internet looking to create the most broken list imaginable and announcing every ridiculous exploit he could find. He played exactly as you would have expected him to play, gloated about his lead in the campaign, and then it simply didn't occur to him that it was 'odd' when we all started bowing out right around the same time.

This is not a competitive game. This is a buddy game to have fun, and I can't tell you how awesome and rewarding that is- you'd have to see it for yourself to appreciate it.

The desire for clear rules has nothing to do with competition.

Improvising game design while playing is an entirely different kind of play then playing by rules.

If I want to be a game designer I will work on one of my many projects. If I bother buying something it had better well already be a game.

TylerT wrote:
The desire for clear rules has nothing to do with competition.

Improvising game design while playing is an entirely different kind of play then playing by rules.

If I want to be a game designer I will work on one of my many projects. If I bother buying something it had better well already be a game.

And that's fair that you want clear and concise rules, absolutely no one is saying that this doesn't need to be address and that we don't need a clarified and consolidated ruleset for the game in ONE book. I'm an avid player and I can't be assed to go and buy the new book, to be honest.

I'm hoping they figure this out sooner than later.

 vonjankmon wrote:

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:
Forewarning: Necromunda is not a game you play with super-competitive types, WAAC players, 'TFG', or the 'Git Gud M8' type of people. In fact- I'd honestly say it's a game you gather your buddies up and go in on together to play. Otherwise a campaign isn't going to be much fun.

There's no FAQ that I am aware of, or wasn't he last time I played- some people had questions answered about certain things, but if you get in there with the people who treat GW's official printed word in rulebooks and FAQ's as the Pax Imperialis and Lectivio Divinitatus, and all other sources of information may as well be chipmunk farts in a windstorm? Well, get ready for some ridiculously broken stuff and a game that's gonna last about 10 minutes. And you're gonna hate it.

The game has flaws, but it's not 'Matched Play' 40k. It's simply a fast and loose game with a good helping of rules with a few things here and there that either aren't clear or are buried in one of the five books (and you want the updated version of said rule, too). It's not as fast and loose as, say, 'Narrative Kill Team' where you're adding silly rules as you go- but you aren't going to be able to remember every rule for everything, you're going to go insane trying to find out which of the five books has this specific rule, and it might just be one of those rules that doesn't make any sense at all when you do find it. So you improvise, have fun, move along.

In all honesty? If you can't sit and play a game where you're just goofing off and laughing at the antics taking place in a game- and your opponent forgets a rule and you can't just say 'let's do what makes sense and go with it'? You'll wanna stay away from Necromunda for the sake of your own enjoyment and everyone else's, to. Not being jerk, that's just the way it is. It doesn't sit well with a lot of competitive or 'by the book' types because of what it is. Not because it sucks, but because it's just not that kind of game.

I think you are correct, which is part of the reason that this game has just been DoA in my local area. The rules are so long, convoluted, and expensive that most of the casual gamers in my area just cannot be bothered to deal with it. If the rules were tighter but still as expensive I think it would have done better as the more power gaming focused players are already used to paying out to buy the latest and greatest.

This could be easily circumvented, if there was a real interest in this game. One guy (Arbitrator) buys most of the rules stuff and the other players purchase just the minis which enable them to play the game. The Arbitrator has to sit down, read the rules and teach them to the other players. It is like with rpgs. You have a dungeon master with all the books and the other players just bring a pencil, rubber and their character sheet to the session. Though some players are not even able to bring the latter along ( I speak out of experience).
Also people who cannot figure out a simple ruleset like N17 must have the attention span of fruit flies. How do they get through their daily lives? It is not rocket science after all. Gaming culture has taken a big nosedive. Just imagine these guys trying to figure out how to play D&D? It would be like watching apes trying to write a novel with a typewriter.

Part of the problem is that Forgeworld just doesn’t have a great rules writing team. I played a lot of 30k, and while it was fun to be honest it was always hideously imbalanced. That didn’t matter at first because everyone played marines, but as other armies were added it really, really did. And it was still better than 6th or 7th ed 40k, just because there was less stuff to go wrong. The game was supposedly about space marines fighting each other but they gave everyone guns that were really good at killing marines in vast numbers, so you didn’t actually want to bring them. That experience doesn’t fill me with hope for Necromunda or Titanicus.

So my approach now is to wait and see with FW games. Is it any good, and does anyone near me play it? If so I’ll get a copy. Necromunda could be saved with a single rulebook once all the gangs are out, or even a automatically-updating one like the GW enhanced edition codexes. But having to buy 6 rulebooks is a joke.

 Strg Alt wrote:
This could be easily circumvented, if there was a real interest in this game. One guy (Arbitrator) buys most of the rules stuff and the other players purchase just the minis which enable them to play the game. The Arbitrator has to sit down, read the rules and teach them to the other players. It is like with rpgs. You have a dungeon master with all the books and the other players just bring a pencil, rubber and their character sheet to the session. Though some players are not even able to bring the latter along ( I speak out of experience).

Easier said than done, 'teach someone the rules' doesn't mesh well with 'ok now go take $35.00 worth of models and assemble your dudes'. I'm sorry, I don't start clipping models out to assemble them until I've sat down with the book and know what I'm about to build. I like to study up, see how things work, and then decide how I'm going to build things. ONE rulebook would be a welcome change. But it's there if people look for it.

 Strg Alt wrote:
Also people who cannot figure out a simple ruleset like N17 must have the attention span of fruit flies. How do they get through their daily lives? It is not rocket science after all. Gaming culture has taken a big nosedive. Just imagine these guys trying to figure out how to play D&D? It would be like watching apes trying to write a novel with a typewriter.

You're not wrong. The rules aren't complicated- I don't consider myself brilliant by a long shot, but between flipping through a book and watching a couple Youtube videos I can generally get the grasp of any game on the market. I think a lot of the screeching about Necromunda is always honest. Some people just love to screech about everything. GW could be handing out stacks of $100.00 bills to everyone, and the customers would find a way to complain- "My rubber band isn't blue! What do you mean I have to go over there and take it, why can't you bring it to me?! His are crisper bills than mine! WAAAA!"

 ServiceGames wrote:

At least at my local GW store, I've been burned SO MANY TIMES by buying boxed games, rulesets for skirmish style games, new models for them, and taking the long hours to paint them just the way I want them only to play maybe once (if I'm lucky) before it just dies. That annoys me to no end.

That is more of a gamer problem than a game problem. As a friend of mine who owns an FLGS says- Gamers are the flakiest bunch of people I've ever met.

You can have a really popular game and a bunch of your customers will commit to it initially then just drop off. especially if the game is campaign centric. You'd think 40k was a dead game around here with the sheer amount of people that say they're going to play it yet just either sit at home playing WoW or only want to play MTG or the DBZ ccg. Organising a bunch of gamers to do anything is like herding cats; there's a reason I've only played half a dozen games of 8th since it dropped, and it's not through lack of trying.

To circle it back to Necromunda, there was a guy trying to get a campaign started and I straight up said I didn't want to join in (not least because my gang of choice is also Scavvies...) as, like the OP I don't feel it is a complete game and I'll take a second look at it when GW decide to release a consolidated book.

I've decided I want to play this game but I do think it's at a cycle like you see on Apple speculation websites where it should say in red "WAIT - DON'T BUY NOW - UPDATE TO COME" because surely they are just about at the point where they could easily do a 2.0.

New box with two new gangs to entice current players, with new stand alone big rulebook that incorporates everything that came in the 4 gang books and streamlines it all.

I'd buy that and i bet a lot of people would. Would it piss off everyone who bought the previous stuff? Maybe a different fanbase, but GW players seem to be cool with this kind of stuff...

 Strg Alt wrote:


This could be easily circumvented, if there was a real interest in this game. One guy (Arbitrator) buys most of the rules stuff and the other players purchase just the minis which enable them to play the game. The Arbitrator has to sit down, read the rules and teach them to the other players. It is like with rpgs. You have a dungeon master with all the books and the other players just bring a pencil, rubber and their character sheet to the session. Though some players are not even able to bring the latter along ( I speak out of experience).
Also people who cannot figure out a simple ruleset like N17 must have the attention span of fruit flies. How do they get through their daily lives? It is not rocket science after all. Gaming culture has taken a big nosedive. Just imagine these guys trying to figure out how to play D&D? It would be like watching apes trying to write a novel with a typewriter.

So after I spend $245 getting all of the rules for N17 ($125 for the box, then another $120 for the 4 gang wars, and who knows where the Gang Wars end) is there an FAQ that tells me which versions of the various weapon stats in each Gang War I should use if they are different? This is a legit question, because I have heard that there is something on Reddit like that but I can't find any FAQ from GW that addresses it. Playing casually or competitively, it is not fun for your opponent to play a weapon differently than you believe it should be played and both of you be correct when you each pull out a different Gang War book. And building your gang is a fair bit of Necromunda, only being able to do it when the person with the rules is around is not something that is going to entice a bunch of people in an area to play Necromunda.

Again this isn't an "OMG N17 is totally unplayable!", this is a "Wow GW made this a bit difficult to play and there are a lot of games that want my time, I think I'll go play those instead." I live in an area that literally has a 40K tournament 2-3 weekends in a month, with a local Facebook group of around 350 people. When someone posted whether anyone was playing N17 there were 3 responses, one of which was mine, and we all stated the same thing, we're interested but between the price point and effort involved we're going to wait until a consolidated rule set is released or just pass on it. So you're right, gaming culture has changed, there are loads of easier to play games out there (many by GW themselves!) and frankly gamers do not have to deal with the type of thing GW tried with N17, I've got a dozen other games that are competing for my time (D&D being one of them) The nature of table top games is a social one, if there's no community around it for whatever reason then it's DOA unless you enjoy playing the game by yourself. GW has made getting into it difficult, which in turn has killed interest off in many people. I'm legit jealous of people who have a community to play N17 with, because as annoyed as I am with the release of it, I am a big enough fan that I would shell out the $245 if there was a community to play it with in my area.

 vonjankmon wrote:

 Strg Alt wrote:


This could be easily circumvented, if there was a real interest in this game. One guy (Arbitrator) buys most of the rules stuff and the other players purchase just the minis which enable them to play the game. The Arbitrator has to sit down, read the rules and teach them to the other players. It is like with rpgs. You have a dungeon master with all the books and the other players just bring a pencil, rubber and their character sheet to the session. Though some players are not even able to bring the latter along ( I speak out of experience).
Also people who cannot figure out a simple ruleset like N17 must have the attention span of fruit flies. How do they get through their daily lives? It is not rocket science after all. Gaming culture has taken a big nosedive. Just imagine these guys trying to figure out how to play D&D? It would be like watching apes trying to write a novel with a typewriter.

So after I spend $245 getting all of the rules for N17 ($125 for the box, then another $120 for the 4 gang wars, and who knows where the Gang Wars end) is there an FAQ that tells me which versions of the various weapon stats in each Gang War I should use if they are different? This is a legit question, because I have heard that there is something on Reddit like that but I can't find any FAQ from GW that addresses it. Playing casually or competitively, it is not fun for your opponent to play a weapon differently than you believe it should be played and both of you be correct when you each pull out a different Gang War book. And building your gang is a fair bit of Necromunda, only being able to do it when the person with the rules is around is not something that is going to entice a bunch of people in an area to play Necromunda.

Again this isn't an "OMG N17 is totally unplayable!", this is a "Wow GW made this a bit difficult to play and there are a lot of games that want my time, I think I'll go play those instead." I live in an area that literally has a 40K tournament 2-3 weekends in a month, with a local Facebook group of around 350 people. When someone posted whether anyone was playing N17 there were 3 responses, one of which was mine, and we all stated the same thing, we're interested but between the price point and effort involved we're going to wait until a consolidated rule set is released or just pass on it. So you're right, gaming culture has changed, there are loads of easier to play games out there (many by GW themselves!) and frankly gamers do not have to deal with the type of thing GW tried with N17, I've got a dozen other games that are competing for my time (D&D being one of them) The nature of table top games is a social one, if there's no community around it for whatever reason then it's DOA unless you enjoy playing the game by yourself. GW has made getting into it difficult, which in turn has killed interest off in many people. I'm legit jealous of people who have a community to play N17 with, because as annoyed as I am with the release of it, I am a big enough fan that I would shell out the $245 if there was a community to play it with in my area.

What have I bought? Basic box, GW 1-3, Badzone-Delta-7 board tiles and Escher & Goliath dice & GTC.
Was it worth it? Yes, every game was exciting due to the nature of alternate activations.

How many players are in my group? It is a two player campaign (2D).
Just before Necromunda hit the stores, many people bragged what kind of gang they would lead into the Underhive. When it hit the stores, the store manager made a grievous mistake in not doing a demo. I arrived there and rummaged through the store box set to have a look at the game components. There were also other people present which stood transfixed around the center store table and witnessed the unfolding of a run of the mill 40K battle on a never changing battlefield. None of them were interested in the new Necromunda because it didn´t contain any Spess Mehreens and therefore was categorized as an inferior product not worthy of any attention. As I checked the box contents another fellow sat across me at a table and applied lazily paint on a AoS mini. He didn´t even raise once his head to see for himself what kind of new great game enriched GW´s gaming universe. When I closed the lid on the Necromunda box a thought crossed my mind as my gaze drifted across the shop:
Throwing pearls to swine.

Do I try to market the game to other players? Yes, all the time.
But all players say the same thing: I am already invested in 40K. Only having two players for the campaign is not a disadvantage. My acquaintance is reliable and when the next scenario is supposed to take place it actually occurs.

Who is doing the work of the Arbitrator? That´s me.
I read all the rules and checked the yaktribe forum for help when GW´s writers couldn´t word the rules properly. If some of the rules are not to my liking they are marked for discussion. Marked rules will be discussed with my fellow before we start to play. Up to this day we had three test games and three campaign scenarios. I taught the rules to my fellow and he always borrows the painted Goliath minis from our local GW. Up to now he only managed to lose two Goliath minis from the box set. Let´s see how many of the brutes will remain at the end of our campaign.

Is it tiresome for me to read all the stuff? No, I am used to it.
I have been a dungeon master for a long time. We played GURPS, D&D (Ravenloft, Forgotten Realms, Dark Sun), Warhammer Fantasy, Judge Dredd and even Macho Women with Guns.

 usernamesareannoying wrote:
So after collecting all 4 books and having read none of them yet i was just wondering if the rules are as daunting as they seem?
Are the books lots of repetition, add ons, updates or something else entirely?
I think I'm just having some overload.

Ok, just to give my response to the OP:

- The basic set is designed as a Space Hulk-style mini-campaign, with enough basic rules to get started and play your 10 games with the two pre-set gangs.
- Gang War 1 is a must for the Campaign rules
- The rest are mostly add-ons and optional rules, however some of those add-ons are quite important ones. For example, GW3 includes a much expanded Trading Post with all the weapon rules, etc etc.

Generally, the problem with the rules comes from them being spread out too much. Even in the basic set, the switch between 'basic' and 'advanced' rules means you're flipping back and forth through the book too much. I can totally see the logic in producing a 'complete game' boxed set, and then a separate book for campaign play, but then GW1 should have included a full trading post, weapons lists, etc right from the start.

Personally, I bought the rulebook and basic cards/dice from a friend's second set, and bought GW1, and then stopped buying. I've been using the Reddit Compilation (which basically lays out the rules in an easy-to-follow way) since then. I'm totally up for buying a BB-style 'Annual' if they release one, but I don't want to have to cart loads of books around.

Our campaign has been running pretty smoothly, and we restrict which GW we're working with each Turf War - so the next Turf War starts in August, which will be the first time we use GW3 and GW4. That way some people aren't fighting with GW2 rules against someone with surprise GW4 weapons, etc etc. We've had about 20 people playing consistently since the start of the year with a single FB group to manage any issues.

So yes, I think the organisation of the releases has been poor, and they could have done this better even with the model of release a new gang per quarter. But the game itself is great. Just the right balance of action and detail. It has some drawbacks compared to the original, but many more benefits.