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 Togusa wrote:

 Excommunicatus wrote:
I have called a waaahmbulance.

No kidding, the level of salt in this thread is higher than that of a McDonalds Cheesburger.

Mistakes happen, either accept that people aren't perfect, or go find some other hobby to entertain your mind and take your hard earned cash.

The codex isn't invalid, it has a mistake in it, one that has now been corrected.

And once again, no-one is mad the mistake was fixed. They are mad that these mistakes keep happening. Literally ONE 8th edition book of theirs is still valid as printed, out of 22. Not even their Errata book could be printed without mistakes.

When your big book of errata needs errata, you've officially given up any right to be taken seriously as a rules publisher.

I'm not really mad the mistake happened, i'm more annoyed that GW insists on this antiquated system for rules.

It'd be entirely different if they offered a rules subscription like I mentioned, and also sold codexes. Then I can pay $5 a month or something, saving money, having up-to-date books with erratas, FAQs, etc, that are fully searchable and with links to make reading and referencing easy. Meanwhile, book lovers can circle jerk over how inaccurate and error filled their codexes are, while they buy 3-4 a year to the tune of ~$160.

Apologies if I've missed it - I think I've gone through most of this thread ...

But have GW confirmed that the epub version from warhammerdigital.com will have the fix in it or not?

daisy666 wrote:
Apologies if I've missed it - I think I've gone through most of this thread ...

But have GW confirmed that the epub version from warhammerdigital.com will have the fix in it or not?

IDK - what program do you use to read those dreaded files anyways?

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 Togusa wrote:

 Excommunicatus wrote:
I have called a waaahmbulance.

No kidding, the level of salt in this thread is higher than that of a McDonalds Cheesburger.

Mistakes happen, either accept that people aren't perfect, or go find some other hobby to entertain your mind and take your hard earned cash.

The codex isn't invalid, it has a mistake in it, one that has now been corrected.

And once again, no-one is mad the mistake was fixed. They are mad that these mistakes keep happening. Literally ONE 8th edition book of theirs is still valid as printed, out of 22. Not even their Errata book could be printed without mistakes.

When your big book of errata needs errata, you've officially given up any right to be taken seriously as a rules publisher.

I'm not sure I understand, because my group doesn't play competitively, we never bother with FAQ's and just play the rules as they're printed in the BRB and the Codex.

Also, isn't there a difference between an errata designed to expand on rules issues, vs. actual typos that need to be reprinted such as the space wolf book?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Marmatag wrote:
I'm not really mad the mistake happened, i'm more annoyed that GW insists on this antiquated system for rules.

It'd be entirely different if they offered a rules subscription like I mentioned, and also sold codexes. Then I can pay $5 a month or something, saving money, having up-to-date books with erratas, FAQs, etc, that are fully searchable and with links to make reading and referencing easy. Meanwhile, book lovers can circle jerk over how inaccurate and error filled their codexes are, while they buy 3-4 a year to the tune of ~$160.

I mean lets be honest here, the rules could easily just be released in PDF form, and the codex books could be switched to lore, art, painting etc only. That might be the absolute best way to handle this option, make the rules free and then get people with the lore and what not.

crzylgs wrote:
I think there are a few things GW could do to tackle this issue:

A very fair and simple solution would be when you buy a physical Codex for ~£25 you should get the digital version included. With the current model of regular FAQs, balance changes [...]

GW don't really lose anything here because I'm sure there can't me many people at all who buy a physical Codex and the digital version? Seeing as books are put together digitally anyway the conversion from whichever software they use to digital copy for the public requires very little work.

This way you get to buy your physical copy, without the potential 'buyers remorse' if/when you have to reference the digital version.

I work for a publisher as a digital assistant and get asked why this isn't standard practice across the industry. There are so many articles/ Twitter threads out there that answer the question better, but here goes.

There isn't a viable delivery method for providing your free ebooks! TLDR; it's not feasible because of boring DRM stuff.

1. Vendors add the DRM, they own the algorithm things. And I don't see GW giving away DRM free epubs for everybody to pirate any time soon. And the cost for licensing Adobe DRM is insane (the only one I have heard about licensing).

2. Say vendors did get on board, they'd probably charge the publisher for delivery costs (KDP charges by the MB, which for fixed layouts would be insane) as they aren't making money off giveaways...

3. Where are you getting the physical books from, that also sells digital editions? Amazon is the only place I can think of, but last time I checked, GW only do fixed layout epubs, due to mobi and KF8 being [insert dumpster fire gif here]. Why not sell a wider market of ebook consumers? Because kindle is literally only any good for reflowable ebooks, because its CSS support is straight out of 1998. Amongst other things, but I could rant about Kindle being for days.

I bet that was full of typos and ranty but I'm on a train, tapping at a tiny screen and very sleepy. Will probably reread and edit later if I remember.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 Togusa wrote:

 Excommunicatus wrote:
I have called a waaahmbulance.

No kidding, the level of salt in this thread is higher than that of a McDonalds Cheesburger.

Mistakes happen, either accept that people aren't perfect, or go find some other hobby to entertain your mind and take your hard earned cash.

The codex isn't invalid, it has a mistake in it, one that has now been corrected.

And once again, no-one is mad the mistake was fixed. They are mad that these mistakes keep happening. Literally ONE 8th edition book of theirs is still valid as printed, out of 22. Not even their Errata book could be printed without mistakes.

When your big book of errata needs errata, you've officially given up any right to be taken seriously as a rules publisher.

I don't think anybody was realistically taking them seriously in the first place - it's a game about tiny plastic army men. Taking it too seriously is how you get a signature block like yours.

I feel like those most upset about this aren't even Space Wolf players in the first place.

 Marmatag wrote:
I'm not really mad the mistake happened, i'm more annoyed that GW insists on this antiquated system for rules.

It'd be entirely different if they offered a rules subscription like I mentioned, and also sold codexes. Then I can pay $5 a month or something, saving money, having up-to-date books with erratas, FAQs, etc, that are fully searchable and with links to make reading and referencing easy. Meanwhile, book lovers can circle jerk over how inaccurate and error filled their codexes are, while they buy 3-4 a year to the tune of ~$160.

I think they should just follow the approach they have with AoS and Kill Team - everybody in AoS and Kill Team have access to the unit rules for everything. In AoS it's through online PDFs linked from the army tool, and in KT it's part of the main book, but in either case the basic component stands - a unit's rules are available outside of the army book. KT box sets give you extra rules and abilities, though, and in some ways that's similar to a codex. But you don't need to buy every box set to get the rules for every unit.

Sure, there are third party sources for that information - but GW should be the source, not some other completely unrelated community.

I think they should establish that concept directly by revamping their codex design - remove data sheets, points lists, and wargear profile lists. Those should be available via access to an app - where they can be updated and balanced independently and at any time they wish, without the need for a yearly supplemental rule book.

And like the KT boxes, the codex should be the home of army specific special rules, stratagems, warlord traits, and relics - all of which are unlocked on the app upon the codex purchase. This approach obviously wouldn't have resolved anything in this particular case, but less is more here. Trim the fat from codexes and you'll have an opportunity to put more care into what's left. The rest of the codex should be devoted to supplementing the rest of the hobby for your army. The lore is key here, but I'd like to see more hobby related content - kitbash ideas, awesome paint tutorials or examples, and maybe even a cool battle report using unique narrative campaign focused missions specific to that faction.

I do dislike buying a codex and knowing that only the lore is relevant past a certain point. But I know that it's far better than the alternative - a broken, unwieldy codex that cannot learn from mistakes at all.

I guess I'm one of the few people (if not the only one) who thinks this is a positive?

GW could have easily just kept quiet about sagas in their previews. They could have easily kept all Space Wolf codexes the same and released them without.

Then, when it was time for something like Chapter Approved they could have released it in that and charged you for the privilege. And you'd be none the wiser.

Instead, they admitted to making a mistake, corrected their codexes with smaller volumes (non-English) and offered a free errata before the codex is even released for those they could not justify fixing themselves.

There is perhaps an argument to say that they should have printed the errata and included it themselves with every codex but I don't think we can realistically expect them to reprint thousands of books for the sake of one page?

It's not ideal, but the reaction here is quite bizarre and over the top.

I also disagree that it's the hallmark of an unprofessional company as so many of you claim. Not many companies have the balls to admit they have made a mistake and take steps to correct it. For me it has only increased my trust. This the open, transparent GW we all wanted and begged for, is it not?

Yeah, I agree with the Englishman. Remember 7th. edition where that kind of mistake would have never been fixed. Remember not working Ork upgrades, the formation rule of heldrakes that never could come into play... these things. And they would stay unfixed for years.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
I guess I'm one of the few people (if not the only one) who thinks this is a positive?

GW could have easily just kept quiet about sagas in their previews. They could have easily kept all Space Wolf codexes the same and released them without.

Then, when it was time for something like Chapter Approved they could have released it in that and charged you for the privilege. And you'd be none the wiser.

Instead, they admitted to making a mistake, corrected their codexes with smaller volumes (non-English) and offered a free errata before the codex is even released for those they could not justify fixing themselves.

There is perhaps an argument to say that they should have printed the errata and included it themselves with every codex but I don't think we can realistically expect them to reprint thousands of books for the sake of one page?

It's not ideal, but the reaction here is quite bizarre and over the top.

I also disagree that it's the hallmark of an unprofessional company as so many of you claim. Not many companies have the balls to admit they have made a mistake and take steps to correct it. For me it has only increased my trust. This the open, transparent GW we all wanted and begged for, is it not?

It's not that they made a mistake, they didn't. A mistake is a typo. This is them changing their mind between sending it to print and release.

Sgt. Cortez wrote:
Yeah, I agree with the Englishman. Remember 7th. edition where that kind of mistake would have never been fixed. Remember not working Ork upgrades, the formation rule of heldrakes that never could come into play... these things. And they would stay unfixed for years.

What DID that Heldrake formation do? 7th feels so long ago haha!

 Xenomancers wrote:

daisy666 wrote:
Apologies if I've missed it - I think I've gone through most of this thread ...

But have GW confirmed that the epub version from warhammerdigital.com will have the fix in it or not?

IDK - what program do you use to read those dreaded files anyways?

Azardi for Windows is the most compatible, but Chrome's Readium extension is the most featured and user friendly.

You are right - the epub file is horrible - specifcially epub3 standard is so poorly fully implemented - you either have Readium with its mashing of text together, or Azardi with its lack of zoom.

Wish they released them as PDFs ...

 trephines wrote:

crzylgs wrote:
I think there are a few things GW could do to tackle this issue:

A very fair and simple solution would be when you buy a physical Codex for ~£25 you should get the digital version included. With the current model of regular FAQs, balance changes [...]

GW don't really lose anything here because I'm sure there can't me many people at all who buy a physical Codex and the digital version? Seeing as books are put together digitally anyway the conversion from whichever software they use to digital copy for the public requires very little work.

This way you get to buy your physical copy, without the potential 'buyers remorse' if/when you have to reference the digital version.

I work for a publisher as a digital assistant and get asked why this isn't standard practice across the industry. There are so many articles/ Twitter threads out there that answer the question better, but here goes.

There isn't a viable delivery method for providing your free ebooks! TLDR; it's not feasible because of boring DRM stuff.

1. Vendors add the DRM, they own the algorithm things. And I don't see GW giving away DRM free epubs for everybody to pirate any time soon. And the cost for licensing Adobe DRM is insane (the only one I have heard about licensing).

2. Say vendors did get on board, they'd probably charge the publisher for delivery costs (KDP charges by the MB, which for fixed layouts would be insane) as they aren't making money off giveaways...

3. Where are you getting the physical books from, that also sells digital editions? Amazon is the only place I can think of, but last time I checked, GW only do fixed layout epubs, due to mobi and KF8 being [insert dumpster fire gif here]. Why not sell a wider market of ebook consumers? Because kindle is literally only any good for reflowable ebooks, because its CSS support is straight out of 1998. Amongst other things, but I could rant about Kindle being for days.

I bet that was full of typos and ranty but I'm on a train, tapping at a tiny screen and very sleepy. Will probably reread and edit later if I remember.

Osprey/Warlord makes their rulebooks available as PDFs (I’ve bought several) or ePubs, and several other companies parter with DriveThruRPG to deliver PDF versions of their older, and often current, offerings. Heck, I’m a vendor on DriveThruRPG; it’s not hard at all these days to export your book design out to PDF format and either lock it down yourself or get a 3rd party involved to add protection to it.

Not that all the DRM in the world is going to do much to protect it anyways - GW’s current Codexes in all their glory are out there for those who look for it for five minutes. Even the ones they didn’t put up (for the likes of past editions, like 3rd and such). I know, I know - “If all of this is just available for free, why should GW bother?” ‘Cuz most people prefer the inferred quality from the original publisher and the ease by which it could be obtains vs. finding some crooked phone-picture scan with people’s thumbs holding the book open on a possibly virus-laden website.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Sgt. Cortez wrote:
Yeah, I agree with the Englishman. Remember 7th. edition where that kind of mistake would have never been fixed. Remember not working Ork upgrades, the formation rule of heldrakes that never could come into play... these things. And they would stay unfixed for years.

What DID that Heldrake formation do? 7th feels so long ago haha!

Well, I don't really know anymore, too
I think it gave a penalty to leadership at a point in the game round where you'd never had to do a leadership test...

Sgt. Cortez wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Sgt. Cortez wrote:
Yeah, I agree with the Englishman. Remember 7th. edition where that kind of mistake would have never been fixed. Remember not working Ork upgrades, the formation rule of heldrakes that never could come into play... these things. And they would stay unfixed for years.

What DID that Heldrake formation do? 7th feels so long ago haha!

Well, I don't really know anymore, too
I think it gave a penalty to leadership at a point in the game round where you'd never had to do a leadership test...

Like Tyranid SiTW in 7th? Penalty to a psykers leadership when casting powers which is when they don't need it ever.

 IronBrand wrote:
It's not that they made a mistake, they didn't. A mistake is a typo. This is them changing their mind between sending it to print and release.

They are entitled to change their own rules on a whim, particularly when it's for the benefit of the game.

As my previous post, it's better than the alternative (which is them charging for these changes).

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

They are entitled to change their own rules on a whim, particularly when it's for the benefit of the game.

A local hero needs to save this quote for when they nerf the pants off of Orks in like 6 months.

 Marmatag wrote:
A local hero needs to save this quote for when they nerf the pants off of Orks in like 6 months.

You've obviously not seen my lists. If winning was my sole aim I would run more Boyz.

Just do what I'm doing with the codex

And once again GW gets a free pass just for being GW, and the white knight responses cover the full spectrum from "It's only toy soldiers bruh why so triggered?" to "be thankful you get anything at all, filthy peasants".

The bare minimum fix for a sanfu like this is an errata sheet bundled with each book. When this happened to PP in the early days, they actually covered the offending paragraph with a sticker in each copy. And far more expensive books have been pulped and reprinted for this sort of error.

As for accountability, I got 1 country name wrong in an atlas once as a translator and you can be sure I'll never get work with that publisher again. There should be heads rolling for this level of snafu.

Not everyone defending them for this is a White Knight.

But to be on topic for once...

This printing error is proof of the power of the medium and in fact GW has made the right call. I have to say I'm sure the "extra playtesting" was just a nice way of saying "we noticed we fethed up".

Sure a pdf would be easier to fix but, I think my point about ownership still stands.

 lord_blackfang wrote:
And once again GW gets a free pass just for being GW, and the white knight responses cover the full spectrum from "It's only toy soldiers bruh why so triggered?" to "be thankful you get anything at all, filthy peasants".

The bare minimum fix for a sanfu like this is an errata sheet bundled with each book. When this happened to PP in the early days, they actually covered the offending paragraph with a sticker in each copy. And far more expensive books have been pulped and reprinted for this sort of error.

As for accountability, I got 1 country name wrong in an atlas once as a translator and you can be sure I'll never get work with that publisher again. There should be heads rolling for this level of snafu.

the sticker etc ideas would proably take time, GW proably assumes we'd rather get the book this week instead of mid september

 Stormonu wrote:

 darkcloak wrote:

 AndrewGPaul wrote:

 darkcloak wrote:
A rules subscription? What are you people crazy?

So 9th comes around and it's digital only, or better yet on an app. Now when 10th comes out and invalidates my army and I want to play 9th? Go to the library like a schlep and print out everything?

You know, when I was a teenager you paid one internet bill and got unlimited access. Now you pay for data.

When I was a teenager, I paid per minute for internet access. Now it's unlimited. What's your point?

My experience with GW's digital codexes is that they're updated with errata, but that a new edition is a new product.

The point is that the internet used to be quite a bit cheaper and based on the same monthly usage/billing setup as say, cable TV. You paid the bill and got access based on a set amount of time. Now they sell internet by the bit. If you have Shaw hi-speed you get x amount of data per month and pay for any overages. So GW now gives you an option, book or digital. That's fine and that's how it should continue, but what if GW were given complete control over what data you accessed and when? Do you really trust them to treat you fairly? Digital copies are fine, but at the end of the day you are trusting GW with your property. It's stewardship of information.

Overblown paranoia. I can get PDFs of Battletech TROs with the long-removed Unseen mechs with no difficulty at all. Don’t even get me started on the conversion from 8-track (yes, I’ve been around since the days I had the Star Wars soundtrack on 8 track) or LP to cassette to CD to MP3 and having to rebuy the same damn music each time the media changed.

And as for internet access “being cheaper”, I recall the days of it taking 24 hours to download the trailer for Phantom Menace - and if you wanted to rewatch it, you had to download it AGAIN. Now, I can download something like that in seconds (or stream it) and a couple hundred gigs of other stuff to boot before coming near any sort of cap. Internet access, speed and data caps have gotten better, not worse.

I remember those days. Stealing IP off Ubuntu used to take hours! But in reality, that didn't really matter at that time because hours was actually an improvement over days! It's only now that we look back and go oh wow dial up was slow. Back then we were glad a webpage opened in under 10 seconds, now we aren't even willing to wait two seconds for content. Which, given the actual inner workings of the internet, is pretty freaking amazing. Yes, I do remember getting frustrated about the internet back in the day, but it was never really a problem. In 2009 it was feasible to not use the internet for a few hours, but now we can't go five minutes.

You can call it overblown paranoia if you want, I probably am being paranoid. However, there is a lot to be paranoid about! Major corporations know more about me than most people I know. They know more about you than your friends do. Even here on dakka there is a record of everything you ever typed. Is dakka selling your information to nefarious entities? No, but it begs the question, why the need for such intensive data collecting? To sell us products better? If Coca Cola decided to stop collecting information on its customers, how many people would stop drinking coke? Would we even notice? We might wonder why we don't see so many Cola ads on our Facebook but when we go to the grocery store we are still going to buy Coca Cola. But we allow such things when we click okay to TOS agreements that we never ever read, and if we do read them they are designed to be confusing unless we know business jargon, which is often different from one company to another. Think about copyright infringement for a second, those blue screened warnings on every dvd ever. You could be prosecuted and imprisoned for violating copyrights. How many of us have downloaded a movie or a cd? That's jail time should the authorities decide it. I know I could go to jail for downloading Spore, which I believe is still the most pirated game, thanks to inbuilt DRM protection. So, what's to stop GW from pressing charges against people who steal their IP? I have several copies of codices on my PC that could land me in hot water. I also have spent a slew of cash of GWs books too by the way.

Now I'm sure you think I'm insane! But really when you look into the reality of life in a technological world there are some surprisingly Orwellian problems arising and we are not equipped to deal with them. Not as individuals. Not when global media can sway literally millions of minds. It's not just about GW at this point. We need to take a long hard look at how social media functions and how we are going to interact with it going forward. When companies you've never even heard of can decide what content is on the internet and what isn't, we need to do some serious debating.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 Togusa wrote:

 Excommunicatus wrote:
I have called a waaahmbulance.

No kidding, the level of salt in this thread is higher than that of a McDonalds Cheesburger.

Mistakes happen, either accept that people aren't perfect, or go find some other hobby to entertain your mind and take your hard earned cash.

The codex isn't invalid, it has a mistake in it, one that has now been corrected.

And once again, no-one is mad the mistake was fixed. They are mad that these mistakes keep happening. Literally ONE 8th edition book of theirs is still valid as printed, out of 22. Not even their Errata book could be printed without mistakes.

When your big book of errata needs errata, you've officially given up any right to be taken seriously as a rules publisher.

I look foward to playing your game.

Seriously, BCB, you seem to have a good head for game design, make your own game, design your own rules. I bet you'd produce something solid.

 Marmatag wrote:
I'm not really mad the mistake happened, i'm more annoyed that GW insists on this antiquated system for rules.

It'd be entirely different if they offered a rules subscription like I mentioned, and also sold codexes. Then I can pay $5 a month or something, saving money, having up-to-date books with erratas, FAQs, etc, that are fully searchable and with links to make reading and referencing easy. Meanwhile, book lovers can circle jerk over how inaccurate and error filled their codexes are, while they buy 3-4 a year to the tune of ~$160.

Not possible.

There's a sister thread with people talking about how they don't trust digital nor the people using it.
I don't think that kind of attitude can change in any short amount of time.

 Marmatag wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

They are entitled to change their own rules on a whim, particularly when it's for the benefit of the game.

A local hero needs to save this quote for when they nerf the pants off of Orks in like 6 months.

oof

I'm not White Knight, but you have to love that GW can't win.

GW rushes to get the Codex to the printer as soon as possible because "Where is my Space Wolf Codex? GW hates me!"

GW continues play-testing (if you believe them) and realizes the Warlord Traits are not up to snuff and comes up with better rules. They are even fast enough with the update to get the new rules into the translated versions of the codex. They then release it to the fans before they get the Codex in their hands.

"It is inexcusable for GW to put out rules that need correction before we even get them in our hands. They suck."

I guess they should have just left the bad rules in place and not worked to give us a better product, even if it means we need to print out one piece of paper.

Or maybe they should have save it for Chapter Approved 2018 to make it worth the cost for Space Wolf players

 alextroy wrote:
I'm not White Knight, but you have to love that GW can't win.

GW rushes to get the Codex to the printer as soon as possible because "Where is my Space Wolf Codex? GW hates me!"

GW continues play-testing (if you believe them) and realizes the Warlord Traits are not up to snuff and comes up with better rules. They are even fast enough with the update to get the new rules into the translated versions of the codex. They then release it to the fans before they get the Codex in their hands.

"It is inexcusable for GW to put out rules that need correction before we even get them in our hands. They suck."

I guess they should have just left the bad rules in place and not worked to give us a better product, even if it means we need to print out one piece of paper.

Or maybe they should have save it for Chapter Approved 2018 to make it worth the cost for Space Wolf players

Or maybe they could have printed the rules on time, and printed them correctly? Shocking I know, but that's what a competent company would have done. They've only got 40+ years of experience at this.

Hello to everyone. But this post applies mostly to vets:
I was once addicted to seeing 40k as being dictated by GW. I saw the light and got out. I have enjoyed the 40k universe since 2nd ed and still do but I realised that from my perspective it has been run into the ground. The fact of the matter is that it depends on your perspective as to whether they are doing a good job. For me, as a SW vet player, they have fuc*ed us for some time now. I'm talking about the horus heresy books, the rules for various eds not representing the faction at all, the models, everything. The constant nerfing of the legend of Russ, the replacing of the noble savage Fenrisian princes with trampy looking unwashed thug cun*s, the book 'blood of Asaheim' by Chris Wraight which claims that SW don't actually have acute senses!!! I got fed up with it. So you know what my friends and I did? WE wrote our own codices. It's not like GW make balanced codices/editions anyway. Talk with your friends, write your own dexes, playtest them and amend them. If your friends are di*ks about the rules then you need new friends so that's no excuse. GW have proved now (and not just with SW) that the current staff are not worthy of the IP. You don't need them. If you are reasonable about it you will find writing and playing with your own dex amazingly liberating and more fun than putting up with the trash GW has been producing for years.
Once again, If you are a teen or a 20-something this probably doesn't apply to you but you might still consider it.

EDIT: Just to give you an idea of what you can do: Wolf scouts are vets who roam the wastes of Fenris. They take an elite slot. They should be good at eluding and surviving confrontations with the abundant monstrous creatures that roam the wastes of Fenris. My scouts have monster hunter and the statline of a wolf guard. Because that's what makes sense. It's also incredibly fun to play with but I pay the points cost for them. Just try it guys. Free yourself from these stale rules.

Meh. I'll stick with GW's stuff because I can pick up and play with anyone.