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Can the Rotate Ion Shields strategem be used during overwatch?

It's supposed to be used after an enemy declares it's targets. Does this ever take place during overwatch?

Riggs wrote:
Can the Rotate Ion Shields strategem be used during overwatch?

It's supposed to be used after an enemy declares it's targets. Does this ever take place during overwatch?

Yes, you may use this stratagem against Overwatch and Yes, it does.

3. Overwatch
Each time a charge is declared against a unit, the target unit can immediately fire Overwatch at the would-be attacker. A target unit can potentially fire Overwatch several times a turn, though it cannot fire if there are any enemy models within 1" of it. Overwatch is resolved like a normal shooting attack (albeit one resolved in the enemy’s Charge phase) and uses all the normal rules except that a 6 is always required for a successful hit roll, irrespective of the firing model’s Ballistic Skill or any modifiers

Since it's a normal shooting attack, you go though every step, it's just that you have to pick the unit who is charging you as the target. Emphasis mine.

No you cant because the targetting phase is not used. The best way to illustrate this is by using characters as an example. You may not target a character unless it is the closest visible target, yet during overwatch you can. If as BCB states it is a normal shooting attack then you can never target a charging character, which we know is not the case.

As further proof, if it is a normal shooting phase the charged unit can happily split fire at any unit it wants, following a 6 to hit.

Cheers

Andrew

What is the targeting phase ? I dont find it anywhere in the rules.

Sorry, step 2 choose targets

 AndrewC wrote:
No you cant because the targetting phase is not used. The best way to illustrate this is by using characters as an example. You may not target a character unless it is the closest visible target, yet during overwatch you can. If as BCB states it is a normal shooting attack then you can never target a charging character, which we know is not the case.

As further proof, if it is a normal shooting phase the charged unit can happily split fire at any unit it wants, following a 6 to hit.

Cheers

Andrew

First, it isn't Mr. CatBug who's stating Overwatch functions as a normal shooting attack--it's the Overwatch rule. It includes the exact words "Overwatch is resolved like a normal shooting attack" and yet here we are, apparently debating whether Overwatch is resolved like a normal shooting attack.

Second, you can fire Overwatch at a charging character because the main rule book FAQ specifically permits this. [Personally, I think the Overwatch rule itself was probably enough without a FAQ--I see the bit that says "the target unit
can immediately fire Overwatch at the would-be attacker" as a case of a specific authorization overruling a general prohibition, but I'm glad they clarified it. Mainly because of discussions like this.] In any case, in no way does the ability to fire Overwatch at a charging character bear on the analysis of the OP's question or suggest that you otherwise skip any of the steps of resolving a shooting attack.

Finally, you can't split Overwatch fire because of, again, what the Overwatch rule itself actually says. The rule authorizes fire "at the would-be attacker" and then it then tells you to resolve that fire "like a normal shooting attack." Key: FIRST it authorizes you to do something you can't normally do (shoot in the enemy's turn) but only under specific circumstances (unit being charged may fire at the charger), THEN it tells you how to resolve that specifically authorized attack. The fact that Overwatch authorizes fire only at the charger is why you can't split Overwatch fire, NOT because Overwatch is a shooting attack that somehow doesn't follow the shooting rules. Again, the "proof" you offered has no bearing on the question at hand and does not in any way suggest that you skip any of the steps in resolving the attack.

Not quite Greywing. the question centers around the RIS stratagem which activates when the Knight is chosen as a target. And your explanation perfectly illustrates why overwatch isn't a normal shooting phase, you have what? 3 exceptions listed.

Step 2 choosing targets is not used at any point during overwatch, so a target is never chosen. Overwatch overrides that section of the process. And if I never target then the RIS has no activation key.

 AndrewC wrote:


Step 2 choosing targets is not used at any point during overwatch, so a target is never chosen. Overwatch overrides that section of the process. . . . .

This is incorrect. You are misinterpreting a relatively clear batch of rules in service of supporting a nonsensical result. ["Yes, you get to shoot at me, but you never targeted me! Gotcha!"]

In any event, the stuff I quoted above from your last post is categorically incorrect. I thought it was in the FAQ but I couldn't find what I was looking for when I made my first post in this thread. It's actually in the Designer's Commentary [emphasis added]:

"Q: Can you declare charges against units that are not visible to the charging unit?
A: Yes.
Note however that the unit being charged still obeys the normal rules for targeting when it fires Overwatch, and so, if a model cannot see the charging unit, it will not be able to fire Overwatch."

This is not reasonably debatable.

AndrewC: a set target via overwatch, does not mean that the overwatched unit is not targeted.

Overwatch means that only the declared charging unit can be targeted; but it is still targeted.

You cannot, for example, declare overwatch and then target a non charging unit within range of one of your guns.

Overwatch uses part of the targetting rules as you are required to check range which only happens in step 2 (the targeting step). Since it is resolved as normal shooting attack it would require targeting.

However due to brilliant GW wording what constitutes a normal shooting attacks isn't clearly defined and following the normal shooting rules litterally you could overwatch and choose any target (overwatch rules don't define the unit as having to target the charger) only that you fire overwatch in responce to being charged

RAI wise we know from previous editions what is intended by overwatch and so you have to target

U02dah4 wrote:

However due to brilliant GW wording what constitutes a normal shooting attacks isn't clearly defined and following the normal shooting rules litterally you could overwatch and choose any target (overwatch rules don't define the unit as having to target the charger) only that you fire overwatch in responce to being charged

Not True. Read step 3 of the charge phase. It says to fire at the would be attacker.

It says against the attacker but it also says useing the normal shooting rules which would give you the option to choose target. No exemption is made to not permit you to do step 2 in its entirety. It can't be both.

Point is its not clearly written by raw but the RAI is and you target the attacker and cant target someone else

What about step 2 can you not fulfill?
You select target or targets. Your options for selection are restricted (to a single choice).

It does make me curious what it means by "resolved like a normal shooting attack". It does specify that you use all the shooting rules, though.

Do you do step 2? I'd argue that you do, although the choice is made for you - you must select the charger as the target. Alternately, you could say you may select the target, with the caveat that the only valid target is the charging model. Third option is that, because the target is known, you skip step two. Do we know which way this goes? I Think the first, due to the wording of the rule.

Resolved like a normal shooting attack means you have to to able to see the chargers, and they have to be within weapons range. This has been confirmed by the FAQ.

Bharring wrote:
What about step 2 can you not fulfill?
You select target or targets. Your options for selection are restricted (to a single choice).

It does make me curious what it means by "resolved like a normal shooting attack". It does specify that you use all the shooting rules, though.

Do you do step 2? I'd argue that you do, although the choice is made for you - you must select the charger as the target. Alternately, you could say you may select the target, with the caveat that the only valid target is the charging model. Third option is that, because the target is known, you skip step two. Do we know which way this goes? I Think the first, due to the wording of the rule.

Definitely agree that you're still targeting but you are forced to choose the charging unit as the target.

Nothing tells you skip the step why would you? You are told that you are making the shooting attack against the charging unit though, so you can't target another unit.

That seems the most likely correct interpretation.

I am perfectly happy to admit that the tide is against me on this one, and that the majority position is that the knight is targeted as a result of overwatch.

Acceding to a position does not mean that I have to agree with it. Prior to the FAQ the majority position was that characters couldn't be shot at during overwatch if there was a closer unit. Because they couldn't be targeted. Interestingly, to me at least, the FAQ didn't address the issue by saying that the character could be targeted, they simply said "Yes" to the question "Can he be shot, when there is a closer unit?" The question of targeting was never asked or addressed. It may be implied, but it is never spelt out.

The fact that we are debating rather that the more usual shouting at each other would suggest that there is a degree of 'laxitiy' in the rules writing of GW on this subject. The issue cannot be both and neither at the same time.

So in the meantime, I will not protest when my opponents RIS on overwatch, but watch the boards for further clarifications or explanations as they become available.

Cheers gents!

Andrew

 AndrewC wrote:
Acceding to a position does not mean that I have to agree with it. Prior to the FAQ the majority position was that characters couldn't be shot at during overwatch if there was a closer unit. Because they couldn't be targeted. Interestingly, to me at least, the FAQ didn't address the issue by saying that the character could be targeted, they simply said "Yes" to the question "Can he be shot, when there is a closer unit?" The question of targeting was never asked or addressed. It may be implied, but it is never spelt out.

I don't recall any such majority position. A CHARACTER model can be shot at during Overwatch even if they are not the closest unit because the CHARACTER targeting restriction refers only to the Shooting phase, which Overwatch explicitly is not.