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You should write for the Imperial Times

Thanks for the compliment

Justyn wrote:

So when the wolves arrive all full of righteous fury they go straight on the attack,

That is blatantly untrue. Please read the relevant material.

The Space Wolves are a bunch of flea-bitten, mangy beasts who were only too happy to follow Horus's orders, as they already didn't like the TKsons. They followed Horus's orders to the letter, without question (you know, "wipe your brothers out, cuz I said so"; I'm pretty sure if the Marines were told to wipe out the National Guard, they'd go "wait, wtf?!" and ask questions before doing so).

Granted, Magnus disobeyed his father; but he did it to save the Imperium. He disobeyed to save the universe and lost, meanwhile Russ obeyed insane orders to the letter, and lost an entire chapter of marines to Chaos. Bad dog!

The mongrels also have a history of saying "this is bad, but it's okay for us to do cuz we do it differently" in regards to psykers. They're hypocrites, donkey-caves, and they deserved to have Magnus return with a vengeance to wipe out most of their chapter. Too bad he didn't get all of them.

They get literally zero forgiveness. Except on the grounds that I have an awesome Daemon Primarch model. So...I guess there's that!

Ah so thoughtful a piece of prose was never written. Also blatantly wrong. Again read the material. Thousand Sons were already consorting with daemons. They just hadn't realized how corrupted they had become.

Russ, however, being small and furry of mind and slow of wit could not see that the wishes of a brother could not, did not and should not countermand the wishes of his father emperor, and that the very act of trying to countermand them in fact should have placed Horus under a deep shadow of suspicion.

This was compounded by Russ' barbaric and insatiable blood-lust - which is to say that a lower creature, such as him, cannot fairly be held to the same standards of reason, honour and word given as can the average human. Therefore, while his actions and that of his pack of rabid dogs cannot be 'defended', they can at least be excused as the effect of brutal and instinctive minds. You might as well blame the sea for rising - it has no self control or reason.

Think that about sums it up?

I think it shows that maybe you need to simplify things then insult and make caricatures of things you don't like for some reason.

Actually, I did read A Thousand Sons and Prospero Burns. Having read the source material, I’m glad Magnus came back as a Daemon Primarch to skin the furries. Bloody well deserved it. Damn “Team Jacob” apologists...

^^

This pretty much sums up peoples usual opinions on the matter. Its either 'Russ was just following orders that suited his preferences', or 'Magnus did nuh-thing rong and btw SW players have a furry fetish'.

When it comes to whose fault everything was... it was the Word Bearers continuing their debased practises in spite of the harshest censure and basic instruction possible, and Horus for believing the lies they thrust upon him in turn. Everything after that was a mix of unhappy circumstance, Big-E negligence and 'Chaos did it'.

 Elbows wrote:
Eh, Space Wolves have been made out to me (at least in the HH books) to basically be the stereotypical "I was only following orders" goons you see in a lot of silly military movies. While it's a reasonable excuse for a lot of stuff, it makes the Space Wolves one of the most shallow and uninteresting factions in HH.

unfortunately Space Wolves fluff in general, despite having some of the coolest potential, is broadly across the board so poorly written, contradictory, ridiculous, and incoherent that its among the worst across GW's IP portfolio, both during the HH and the 41st millenium.

I disagree. some of the latest space wolf stuff is pretty good.

BrianDavion wrote:
I disagree. some of the latest space wolf stuff is pretty good.

How new? I'll confess I haven't read anything in the last couple of years so newer stuff may be better.

Between the 5E SW codex, the HH books, and FW's SW stuff, that was all painfully stupid and just poorly written, and particularly when taken as a whole is so contradictory it hurts.

The OP was about who was at fault for the destruction of Prospero, so discussions of SW hypocrisy about rune priests vs. librarians is irrelevant.
I think alextroy has summarized the primary points very well.

I would add that this was again confirmed in Ashes of Prospero when Bulveye is reminded by one of his wolfguard that the order to kill Magnus came from Horus. Since Njal has informed them that it was Horus who was the real traitor they realize they were misled.
The primary fault for the destruction of Prospero lies with Horus. Even believing he was supposed to kill Magnus, Russ still tried to get Magnus to surrender.

I cannot understand the mentality of Magnus in this. After bursting into the throne room from the webway, the emperor contacted his mind and revealed the purpose of the secret project and his role within that project.
He saw the destruction he had wrought.
He would have known that the Emperor could have used his help to save the project.
He know the purpose of the Space Wolves, so he had to know what was coming.
But despite his great genius he chose to sulk and allow his world to be destroyed instead of being proactive. He should have contacted Russ and Valdor the moment they entered the system and surrendered to them. Tell them what happened and why.

 Vaktathi wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
I disagree. some of the latest space wolf stuff is pretty good.

How new? I'll confess I haven't read anything in the last couple of years so newer stuff may be better.

Between the 5E SW codex, the HH books, and FW's SW stuff, that was all painfully stupid and just poorly written, and particularly when taken as a whole is so contradictory it hurts.

As opposed to any other bit of 40k lore?

The latest codex is actually pretty good and really addresses the "growing pains" of introducing Primaris Marines quite well. Much better then Codex Space Marines did.
I've also enjoyed most of the HH space wolf fiction (Prosperio burns had some weird moments, but a lot of that was due to the nature of the narraitive. that book was the ultimate in unreliable narriation)

I think its funny how thousand son's call Wolves furries while having birdmen in their mids.

SetantaSilvermane wrote:
I cannot understand the mentality of Magnus in this. After bursting into the throne room from the webway, the emperor contacted his mind and revealed the purpose of the secret project and his role within that project.
He saw the destruction he had wrought.
He would have known that the Emperor could have used his help to save the project.
He know the purpose of the Space Wolves, so he had to know what was coming.
But despite his great genius he chose to sulk and allow his world to be destroyed instead of being proactive. He should have contacted Russ and Valdor the moment they entered the system and surrendered to them. Tell them what happened and why.

Magnus intended to die. He intended to have the entire Thousand Sons Legion die with him. Magnus's defining characteristic is hubris. He thought he was more knowledge, powerful, and wily than both the Emperor and the Denizens of the Warp. He thought he had put one over on the Chaos Gods to protect his legion from the Flesh Curse. He thought he could show the Emperor that he know better. And he was fatally wrong on both points.

And so, he decided that it was best of both he and the legion died. He opened Prospero to attack and clouded the vision of the Thousand Sons to prevent them form seeing the impending attack. He then hid away to allow the slaughter of all he loved, knowing that if he saw what was happening he would intervene.

And so it was not until the final hour that he finally took the field, after the destruction of the Prospero, the sacking Tizca, and the death of the vast majority of his Legion. Once again, his hubris prevented him from seeing his intended path to the end.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
As for what the Space Wolves did, despite the Wolves being more and more painted as hypocritical furry fetishists with each passing day by GW, Russ was absolutely and unequivocally in the right. As far as Russ was concerned, Horus was still the Warmaster and loyal to the Emperor, and if the Emperor told Horus to tell Russ "It's time for purge number 3 go do what you were designed for." then that is what Russ would do. Russ had no obligation to show the slightest hint of mercy to Magnus, but he did because that is what brothers do.

No. The emperor told Russ to go to Prospero and arrest Magnus and disarm the thousand sons. He was to bring Magnus to Terra to stand trial. On his way Horus contacted him and said "the emperor changed his mind, kill Magnus and kill all of the Thousand Sons." Russ thought to himself it was odd that his orders were being changed, but due to his and Valdor's utter hatred for Magnus (Magnus got a lot of custodes killed) they didn't think about these new orders too hard. They wanted to kill Magnus and burn Prospero, and Horus gave them an excuse that was too good to pass up.

Russ also targeted the civilian population for termination and also burned all of the libraries despite not being ordered to do either of those things by either the Emperor OR Horus. Russ was always itching for an excuse to fight Magnus and Horus used that to his advantage to turn a legion to chaos and sow confusion. The fact that Russ was manipulated so easily is all on him.

The attack was so needlessly brutal that many of the other legions thought that Russ turned traitor. The White Scars and Blood Angels (the two legions friendliest towards the Thousand Sons) were gearing up for a retaliatory campaign against the wolves until Khan went to Prospero to figure out what happened.

Magnus wasn't squeaky clean by a long shot either, but the Wolves were NOT the good guys on Prospero. Russ never felt bad about it because he is Russ and he never feels bad about anything. But... it was always my impression that many of the rune priests and higher ranking Space Wolves always secretly believed deep down that they behaved dishonorably on that day, and that the Burning of Prospero was a stain on the otherwise glorious history of the legion. They would never say that to Russ' face of course, except for maybe Bjorn. Bjorn never gave a gak what Russ thought about him.

SetantaSilvermane wrote:
Even believing he was supposed to kill Magnus, Russ still tried to get Magnus to surrender.

It was more of a "surrender yourself for execution and I may take it easy on your planet". When Russ didn't get a response he went ape because he thought Magnus was ignoring him.

SetantaSilvermane wrote:
But despite his great genius he chose to sulk and allow his world to be destroyed instead of being proactive. He should have contacted Russ and Valdor the moment they entered the system and surrendered to them. Tell them what happened and why.

The Space Wolves started shooting the moment they entered orbit. There was no chance to contact Russ over conventional channels because Russ thought that Magnus had already refused his surrender demand. Try surrendering to a Navy Seal team that bursts into your house and starts shooting everyone and see how that goes. Russ was never known to be one to sit back and calmly listen to explanations about things he had no way of comprehending.

Magnus also felt somewhat that he SHOULD die for what he did. He had just ruined centuries of work by the emperor and possibly destroyed humanity's best chance of defeating chaos. You don't come back from that, and there was no "fixing" that. Magnus knew that he would either be executed or imprisoned indefinitely by the emperor and he saw death at the hands of the wolves as a preferable alternative. Turning off the orbital defenses and keeping the Space Wolf fleet a secret until right up before the attack was his last little way of proving his loyalty until right up to the end.

Magnus' "sulking" was an effort at martyrdom.

BrianDavion wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
I disagree. some of the latest space wolf stuff is pretty good.

How new? I'll confess I haven't read anything in the last couple of years so newer stuff may be better.

Between the 5E SW codex, the HH books, and FW's SW stuff, that was all painfully stupid and just poorly written, and particularly when taken as a whole is so contradictory it hurts.

As opposed to any other bit of 40k lore?

I mean, there's some bad 40k fluff (the Militarum Tempestus codex and it's "Hostel/Saw's interpretation of Hogwarts" vision of the Schola for example), but even for 40k there was a lot of awful stuff in there. Overboard wolf motifs, absurd characteriziations of things like firing artillery by smell then rushing forward to go see the results, etc. I guess mostly in that, even poor writing aside, they just can't seem to actually decide on what they want to be, in multiple different respects. Their range of looney-cartoony to deadly-serious didn't mesh well the way it's presented, like a kid that insists their make-believe superhero has every superpower

The latest codex is actually pretty good and really addresses the "growing pains" of introducing Primaris Marines quite well. Much better then Codex Space Marines did.

I'll have to check it out, I haven't seen it yet.

There is no justification for chapter: Space Wolves. Not as GW has written them.

Martel732 wrote:
There is no justification for chapter: Space Wolves. Not as GW has written them.

Meanwhile the Blood angels with their blood missles and blood swords and their blood rage are perfectly ok cause Martel likes them

There's more to it than that, but sure.

Martel732 wrote:
There's more to it than that, but sure.

honestly people are IMHO too hung up on thunder wolf cavlary. looking at the space wolf codex in it's entrity they have... (not counting special characters) 64 units. of these you have a grand total of 3 that are wolves, and 2 more that are "totally not werewolves" weapon wise for all the mockery they have a SINGLE weapon that refers to wolves. (wolf claws) and the raven guard have a pattern of lighting claw called "raven's talons" so they're hardly unique in that regard.

BrianDavion wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
There's more to it than that, but sure.

honestly people are IMHO too hung up on thunder wolf cavlary. looking at the space wolf codex in it's entrity they have... (not counting special characters) 64 units. of these you have a grand total of 3 that are wolves, and 2 more that are "totally not werewolves" weapon wise for all the mockery they have a SINGLE weapon that refers to wolves. (wolf claws) and the raven guard have a pattern of lighting claw called "raven's talons" so they're hardly unique in that regard.

It was much worse before when I could have a Wolf Lord on Thunderwolf with Wolves and Wolf Claws and a Wolf tooth necklace and Wolf talisman. GW needs to use words that aren't wolf.

pm713 wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
There's more to it than that, but sure.

honestly people are IMHO too hung up on thunder wolf cavlary. looking at the space wolf codex in it's entrity they have... (not counting special characters) 64 units. of these you have a grand total of 3 that are wolves, and 2 more that are "totally not werewolves" weapon wise for all the mockery they have a SINGLE weapon that refers to wolves. (wolf claws) and the raven guard have a pattern of lighting claw called "raven's talons" so they're hardly unique in that regard.

It was much worse before when I could have a Wolf Lord on Thunderwolf with Wolves and Wolf Claws and a Wolf tooth necklace and Wolf talisman. GW needs to use words that aren't wolf.

How about Canis? LOLjk


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Asherian Command wrote:

I truly loved Magnus as a character, but we have to be real here Magnus did everything wrong. Its where the joke "Magnus did nothing wrong" comes from. Its making fun of how magnus literally screwed the imperium over with his idioicy (blowing up the psychic defenses of the imperial webway and leading to the deaths of the Custodes, and various others in the construction of the imperial webway .)

This is the post of the thread.

Nobody disagrees that Magnus screwed up. Everyone knows he made a mistake. The furry apologists just can’t accept that Russ’s curs were bloodthirsty psychopaths who eagerly accepted the order to kill their brothers instead of just capturing them.

Can you explain how you capture superhuman psyker marines corrupted by chaos gods, that are armed with the best weapons and armor the Imperium has to offer, while they are turning into mutated chaos monsters?

Would you offer them chocolate? Does chocolate have the necessary disarming effect to placate a savage chaos monster?

Given the fact that Magnus had already given up and wasn’t even fighting back until his children started getting slaughtered, and the wolves were killing civvies as well...that point is moot. They didn’t ask questions, they just came in blasting. There wasn’t even an attempt to do what the emperor wanted; just the bloodbath they were easily duped into.

 timetowaste85 wrote:
Given the fact that Magnus had already given up and wasn’t even fighting back until his children started getting slaughtered, and the wolves were killing civvies as well...that point is moot. They didn’t ask questions, they just came in blasting. There wasn’t even an attempt to do what the emperor wanted; just the bloodbath they were easily duped into.

Giving up would be surrendering. Magnus did not surrender.

 Marmatag wrote:

 timetowaste85 wrote:
Given the fact that Magnus had already given up and wasn’t even fighting back until his children started getting slaughtered, and the wolves were killing civvies as well...that point is moot. They didn’t ask questions, they just came in blasting. There wasn’t even an attempt to do what the emperor wanted; just the bloodbath they were easily duped into.

Giving up would be surrendering. Magnus did not surrender.

Nah, he was suiciding by cop basically. He knew the emperor was either going to have him executed or imprisoned indefinitely for what he did, and he was so distraught over it he thought letting the space wolves kill him was the better option. As for "surrendering and coming out with his hands up"... that was never really an option once the wolves started shooting (which they did the second they arrived, believing their previous surrender demand was being ignored when in reality it never reached Magnus).

The wolves wouldn't have just stopped shooting even if they had Magnus in custody, they thought their orders were to kill the entire legion. Killing the entire civilian populace was just sheer bloodlust (they were not ordered to do that by either the Emperor OR Horus), and burning the libraries was "pissing on the body afterwards" so to speak.

w1zard wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:

 timetowaste85 wrote:
Given the fact that Magnus had already given up and wasn’t even fighting back until his children started getting slaughtered, and the wolves were killing civvies as well...that point is moot. They didn’t ask questions, they just came in blasting. There wasn’t even an attempt to do what the emperor wanted; just the bloodbath they were easily duped into.

Giving up would be surrendering. Magnus did not surrender.

Nah, he was suiciding by cop basically. He knew the emperor was either going to have him executed or imprisoned indefinitely for what he did, and he was so distraught over it he thought letting the space wolves kill him was the better option. As for "surrendering and coming out with his hands up"... that was never really an option once the wolves started shooting (which they did the second they arrived, believing their previous surrender demand was being ignored when in reality it never reached Magnus).

The wolves wouldn't have just stopped shooting even if they had Magnus in custody, they thought their orders were to kill the entire legion. Killing the entire civilian populace was just sheer bloodlust (they were not ordered to do that by either the Emperor OR Horus), and burning the libraries was "pissing on the body afterwards" so to speak.

except that the 1k sons stored all their knowledge, knowledge that was deemed "bad" in the libraries, and had been teaching the civilian population.

BrianDavion wrote:
except that the 1k sons stored all their knowledge, knowledge that was deemed "bad" in the libraries, and had been teaching the civilian population.

Deemed "bad" by whom? The wolves? That was not their decision to make.

Neither the emperor nor Horus told them to burn the libraries, that was something they did extrajudiciously because they had a long-standing grudge against the 1K sons hoarding knowledge that they considered "bad". Same thing with the civilian population. They don't just get to decide they want to slaughter a whole planet worth of people because they don't like them. Both Perturabo and Curze conducted bloody genocides of their home planets (which were in open rebellion) and were called war criminals for it, but when the Wolves do it on a peaceful planet despite having no orders to it's perfectly acceptable?

Easily, they were ordered to do what they did. And before you say 'yeah but Russ should have questioned it or said no' Russ was the executioner, he'd done it before, its what they were made for and wouldn't be an unthinkable thing, in fact it was predicted and reasonable to follow that order given how seriously the Emperor warned against breaking the council of nikaea:

'"Woe betide he who ignores my warning or breaks faith with me. He shall be my enemy, and I will visit such destruction upon him and all his followers that, until the end of all things, he shall rue the day he turned from my light."

'"If you treat with the Warp, Magnus, I shall visit destruction upon you. And your Legion's name will be struck from the Imperial records for all time"

End of.

My only problem with the 30k Wolves (*) is the "we don't use the warp" and that no one of importance calls them out on this at the time.

By the above statement - both Legions should have been destroyed.

(*) the completely flanderised remnants that are the 40k ones are a different matter

 Mr Morden wrote:
My only problem with the 30k Wolves (*) is the "we don't use the warp" and that no one of importance calls them out on this at the time.

By the above statement - both Legions should have been destroyed.

(*) the completely flanderised remnants that are the 40k ones are a different matter

The Ultramarines, Blood Angels, Dark Angels all broke the council of nikaea after the heresy. The difference though is that Magnus was using sorcery and destroyed the Imperiums future with that decision. The Wolves were continued with their use of the warp because of their belief that there use was pure, no one did anything about it because Nikaea was obviously for Magnus, Nikaea only happened because Magnus and his legion were using sorcery, the Emperor was probably keeping up appearances of fairness by banning them all from using the powers,

Magnus destroyed the Imperiums future by... wanting to warn the Emperor about Horus, who basically massacred the Imperiums future.

Generally, given how Magnus really did care for the Emperor, if he had mentioned even a teeny bit of what he was doing Magnus probably would've tried other methods, given his whole reason for trying to contact Emperor was "Okay, I can show dad Psykers have a good use afterall!"