Persuasive argument - Can you defend the Space Wolves for the Prospero incident?

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**Mr Morden**

BrianDavion wrote:
Mr Morden wrote:

Lets also be real, it's not like anyone else stuck to Nikea. Almost all the chapter's today have their Librarians in defiance of the Council, the few exceptions largely do so out of prejudice and not a word about the Emperor's sacred decree at Nikea is ever raised, and the Wolves never felt it applied to them in the first place and kept right on mucking with the Warp the whole time with their Rune Priests that were identical to Librarians in basically all but name, and pretty much all the other Legions kept theirs around in some form as well.

Not from my reading - only a few legions allowed Librarians to practice Warpcraft - the rest allowed them to continue as marines but not to use their powers.

Loyalists
Space Wolves - cos our Rune Priests are "different and special" (Space Wolves 101 about anything and everything)
Thousand Sons - Cos we "know better" and our Primarch said its fine.

White Scars - The Khan was a bit unsure about this and anyway way out on the edge of nowhere where no-one would notice - mostly.

I can't recall but assuming the Traitor Legions did continue before they turned traitor.

and then you had Dorn who locked his Libby's up because Dorn was a dick

Well your not wrong....

**Delvarus Centurion**

w1zard wrote:
Delvarus Centurion wrote:
Russ did not disobey any order from the Emperor. New orders come in and they have to be acted on straight away especially with the drawbacks of astrophathic orders, for instance, maybe Horus got new orders and Russ failed to get them due to warp storms or the astropaths not being able to decipher the message. Horus gave him new orders and his orders are just as valid when it comes to affairs of the great crusade. You are just flat out wrong.

The emperor gives you an order, and Horus gives you another order that directly contradicts the Emperor's. Which one do you follow? If you are a loyalist, the Emperor's. That is pretty cut and dried and I really don't see how that can be argued.

pm713 wrote:
He ran into a barrier and made a deal with an unknown entity to smash it. Hardly unintentional.

He could very easily have contacted him through other means. Or taken any action to avoid the Burning of Prospero. The whole thing is 90% his fault.

It is very explicitly stated that going to Terra himself would take too long (and would be to dangerous as he would be opening himself up for assassination attempts along the way), and that he didn't know who he could trust among the astropaths (some of whom may have been loyal to Horus), or that an astropathic message could have even been delivered to the emperor (who was in seclusion and seeing nobody, not even his custodes). The only way to 100% reliably contact the Emperor and get his message across was to do so through telepathy.

I'm not sure why people think "Lol he should have just flown to Terra" is an acceptable criticism when the books bend over backwards to close that loophole.

Vaktathi wrote:
Expecting Magnus to have known all this is kind of as silly as expecting Russ to have known that Horus was manipulating him with changed orders and blaming him for not bringing Magnus back to stick in the GT so the Emperor could then go do his own thing, when nobody told him that was the plan.

I don't think it is 100% Russ fault that Horus tricked him. Merely pointing out that Horus was able to trick Russ by using Russ' prejudices and hatred of Magnus against him.

If I get two conflicting sets of orders, I am going to call home and clarify. Even if they both come from people I trust.

Russ saw an excuse to fight Magnus and took it.

Russ didn't know that Horus had turned traitor when he followed his order.

**BrianDavion**

Mr Morden wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
Mr Morden wrote:

Lets also be real, it's not like anyone else stuck to Nikea. Almost all the chapter's today have their Librarians in defiance of the Council, the few exceptions largely do so out of prejudice and not a word about the Emperor's sacred decree at Nikea is ever raised, and the Wolves never felt it applied to them in the first place and kept right on mucking with the Warp the whole time with their Rune Priests that were identical to Librarians in basically all but name, and pretty much all the other Legions kept theirs around in some form as well.

Not from my reading - only a few legions allowed Librarians to practice Warpcraft - the rest allowed them to continue as marines but not to use their powers.

Loyalists
Space Wolves - cos our Rune Priests are "different and special" (Space Wolves 101 about anything and everything)
Thousand Sons - Cos we "know better" and our Primarch said its fine.

White Scars - The Khan was a bit unsure about this and anyway way out on the edge of nowhere where no-one would notice - mostly.

I can't recall but assuming the Traitor Legions did continue before they turned traitor.

and then you had Dorn who locked his Libby's up because Dorn was a dick

Well your not wrong....

the sad thing is I was hoping I had misremembered that and someone would correct me

**Scott-S6**

w1zard wrote:
If we are going to use real life military examples as some have started to... If you are ordered by a superior officer to slaughter civilians you have a duty to disobey that order. If you follow it and use the excuse "but I was just following orders" you are just as culpable.

If you want to use that analogy then explore it fully. You're a soldier that was born and bred to slaughter civilians, you've been told by your CiC that is your express purpose.

On two previous occasions you've done it before on his order.

There's a bunch of civilians who were told to stop what they're doing or else they get slaughtered.

When your CiC's 2iC tells you to go slaughter those civilians what's your grounds for questioning that? It's business as usual.

**Mr Morden**

Scott-S6 wrote:
w1zard wrote:
If we are going to use real life military examples as some have started to... If you are ordered by a superior officer to slaughter civilians you have a duty to disobey that order. If you follow it and use the excuse "but I was just following orders" you are just as culpable.

If you want to use that analogy then explore it fully. You're a soldier that was born and bred to slaughter civilians, you've been told by your CiC that is your express purpose.

On two previous occasions you've done it before on his order.

There's a bunch of civilians who were told to stop what they're doing or else they get slaughtered.

When your CiC's 2iC tells you to go slaughter those civilians what's your grounds for questioning that? It's business as usual.

Yeah the idea that enemy (or even neutral) civilians are not there to be looted, abused and likely slaughtered - especially during a siege - is very modern and not very Warhammer 30/40k.

**Scott-S6**

Mr Morden wrote:
Scott-S6 wrote:
w1zard wrote:
If we are going to use real life military examples as some have started to... If you are ordered by a superior officer to slaughter civilians you have a duty to disobey that order. If you follow it and use the excuse "but I was just following orders" you are just as culpable.

If you want to use that analogy then explore it fully. You're a soldier that was born and bred to slaughter civilians, you've been told by your CiC that is your express purpose.

On two previous occasions you've done it before on his order.

There's a bunch of civilians who were told to stop what they're doing or else they get slaughtered.

When your CiC's 2iC tells you to go slaughter those civilians what's your grounds for questioning that? It's business as usual.

Yeah the idea that enemy (or even neutral) civilians are not there to be looted, abused and likely slaughtered - especially during a siege - is very modern and not very Warhammer 30/40k.

This is something about the two forgotten primarchs that I think people overlook - in order to expunge them from history you need to kill a whole lot of bystanders.

**BrianDavion**

Scott-S6 wrote:
Mr Morden wrote:
Scott-S6 wrote:
w1zard wrote:
If we are going to use real life military examples as some have started to... If you are ordered by a superior officer to slaughter civilians you have a duty to disobey that order. If you follow it and use the excuse "but I was just following orders" you are just as culpable.

If you want to use that analogy then explore it fully. You're a soldier that was born and bred to slaughter civilians, you've been told by your CiC that is your express purpose.

On two previous occasions you've done it before on his order.

There's a bunch of civilians who were told to stop what they're doing or else they get slaughtered.

When your CiC's 2iC tells you to go slaughter those civilians what's your grounds for questioning that? It's business as usual.

Yeah the idea that enemy (or even neutral) civilians are not there to be looted, abused and likely slaughtered - especially during a siege - is very modern and not very Warhammer 30/40k.

This is something about the two forgotten primarchs that I think people overlook - in order to expunge them from history you need to kill a whole lot of bystanders.

you'd need to kill off the fleet crew, the soldiers operating beside them... it'd be messy. this of course is assuming they didn't get themselves 100% killed. people take it as a given Russ killed them, but I'd caution against that. when russ talks about sanctioning another legion, astartes fighting astartes, he could simply have been refering to the "Night of the Wolf"

**Delvarus Centurion**

Mr Morden wrote:
Scott-S6 wrote:
w1zard wrote:
If we are going to use real life military examples as some have started to... If you are ordered by a superior officer to slaughter civilians you have a duty to disobey that order. If you follow it and use the excuse "but I was just following orders" you are just as culpable.

If you want to use that analogy then explore it fully. You're a soldier that was born and bred to slaughter civilians, you've been told by your CiC that is your express purpose.

On two previous occasions you've done it before on his order.

There's a bunch of civilians who were told to stop what they're doing or else they get slaughtered.

When your CiC's 2iC tells you to go slaughter those civilians what's your grounds for questioning that? It's business as usual.

Yeah the idea that enemy (or even neutral) civilians are not there to be looted, abused and likely slaughtered - especially during a siege - is very modern and not very Warhammer 30/40k.

Not true, the Wolves loot, its part of their culture. There is just nothing really to loot from average humans. They've been known to loot allied chapters destroyed or abandoned battleships even traitor battleships. Logan's own axe is looted from a Khorne champion.

**w1zard**

Scott-S6 wrote:
If you want to use that analogy then explore it fully. You're a soldier that was born and bred to slaughter civilians, you've been told by your CiC that is your express purpose.

On two previous occasions you've done it before on his order.

There's a bunch of civilians who were told to stop what they're doing or else they get slaughtered.

When your CiC's 2iC tells you to go slaughter those civilians what's your grounds for questioning that? It's business as usual.

Russ' purpose was to be an astarte killer, a troubleshooter. He (maybe) purged two legions before, that is different than slaughtering an entire world full of innocent civilians just because they happen to be in the general vicinity of his target. There is nothing in the lore to suggest that Russ was ever ordered to participate in the wholesale slaughter of civilians at any point in his history.

Mr Morden wrote:
Yeah the idea that enemy (or even neutral) civilians are not there to be looted, abused and likely slaughtered - especially during a siege - is very modern and not very Warhammer 30/40k.

They were not enemy or neutral civilians, they were loyal imperial citizens.

Prospero was an Imperial world last time I checked.

Delvarus Centurion wrote:
Russ didn't know that Horus had turned traitor when he followed his order.

I am aware.

He still should have treated the countermand with more suspicion, and at the very least sent an astropathic message to the Emperor to confirm the order change. The fact that Horus basically said "go kill your brother" and Russ said "yep sure!" without as much as a seconds hesitation or doubt really illustrates that Russ wanted the fight. Sure he made a pretty feeble surrender demand, but it was more of a "come quietly or this gets messy" rather than a "please, for the love of the emperor I don't want to do this".

**Delvarus Centurion**

w1zard wrote:
Scott-S6 wrote:
If you want to use that analogy then explore it fully. You're a soldier that was born and bred to slaughter civilians, you've been told by your CiC that is your express purpose.

On two previous occasions you've done it before on his order.

There's a bunch of civilians who were told to stop what they're doing or else they get slaughtered.

When your CiC's 2iC tells you to go slaughter those civilians what's your grounds for questioning that? It's business as usual.

Russ' purpose was to be an astarte killer, a troubleshooter. He (maybe) purged two legions before, that is different than slaughtering an entire world full of innocent civilians just because they happen to be in the general vicinity of his target. There is nothing in the lore to suggest that Russ was ever ordered to participate in the wholesale slaughter of civilians at any point in his history.

Mr Morden wrote:
Yeah the idea that enemy (or even neutral) civilians are not there to be looted, abused and likely slaughtered - especially during a siege - is very modern and not very Warhammer 30/40k.

They were not enemy or neutral civilians, they were loyal imperial citizens.

Prospero was an Imperial world last time I checked.

Delvarus Centurion wrote:
Russ didn't know that Horus had turned traitor when he followed his order.

I am aware.

He still should have treated the countermand with more suspicion, and at the very least sent an astropathic message to the Emperor to confirm the order change. The fact that Horus basically said "go kill your brother" and Russ said "yep sure!" without as much as a seconds hesitation or doubt really illustrates that Russ wanted the fight. Sure he made a pretty feeble surrender demand, but it was more of a "come quietly or this gets messy" rather than a "please, for the love of the emperor I don't want to do this".

No he shouldn't of, he shouldn't of treated it with any suspicion. You're are just completely biased here there is no point in arguing with you.

**w1zard**

Delvarus Centurion wrote:
No he shouldn't of, he shouldn't of treated it with any suspicion. You're are just completely biased here there is no point in arguing with you.

I have already said the Magnus was not blameless in this whole thing either. Merely pointing out the fact that Russ was way too trigger happy, and willing to drop a command from the Emperor at a seconds notice when confronted with an excuse to visit destruction upon Magnus. He hated Magnus, badly. I think the only two Primarchs that hated each other anywhere as closely were Perturabo and Dorn. Had Russ stopped to consider things more carefully, followed the emperor's original orders, or made more of an attempt to get into touch with Magnus and speak with him then Horus would have been down a legion for the heresy and the loyalists may have even been up one.

The wolves slaughtered a loyalist legion, and an entire planet full of Imperial citizens that day and they were hailed as heroes because of it. The 1K Sons were definitely not the most perfect loyalists (and probably deserved to be heavily censured or made to do a penance crusade or something for breaking the edict) but they were still loyal to the Imperium at heart.

**Delvarus Centurion**

w1zard wrote:
Delvarus Centurion wrote:
No he shouldn't of, he shouldn't of treated it with any suspicion. You're are just completely biased here there is no point in arguing with you.

I have already said the Magnus was not blameless in this whole thing either. Merely pointing out the fact that Russ was way too trigger happy, and willing to drop a command from the Emperor at a seconds notice when confronted with an excuse to visit destruction upon Magnus. He hated Magnus, badly. I think the only two Primarchs that hated each other anywhere as closely were Perturabo and Dorn. Had Russ stopped to consider things more carefully, followed the emperor's original orders, or made more of an attempt to get into touch with Magnus and speak with him then Horus would have been down a legion for the heresy and the loyalists may have even been up one.

The wolves slaughtered a loyalist legion, and an entire planet full of Imperial citizens that day and they were hailed as heroes because of it. The 1K Sons were definitely not the most perfect loyalists (and probably deserved to be heavily censured or made to do a penance crusade or something for breaking the edict) but they were still loyal to the Imperium at heart.

You are biased against Russ I mean, probably because you are a thousand sons player.

He wasn't trigger happy at all, he said he wanted Magnus to receive the least amount of punishment before Nikaea, that is not triggeer happy. He only hated Magnus after Magnus killed his warriors, it was nothing compared to Perty and Dorn. There was no reason for Russ to consider things more carefully. You think that because you know Horus went traitor, If Horus never went traitor why would Russ consider it at all. That's where your logic falls away, you are thinking with hindsight. Because Horus went traitor you think Russ should have known that somehow and therefore not trusted his orders. Imagine the Emperor turned to chaos, should Russ have considered not following the Emperors orders. That Horus would turn was nearly as unthinkable as the Emperor himself turning.

Russ and his wolves slaughters loyalists before, they killed many World Eaters, it was their job.

**w1zard**

Delvarus Centurion wrote:
You are biased against Russ I mean, probably because you are a thousand sons player.

For the record, I play guard, and I have a few old necrons laying around from third edition. I don't even own a single Thousand Sons mini. If I had to pick a chaos legion to play I'd pick Iron Warriors. I'll tell you what, if you don't believe me I'll give you my address and you can come over to my house and check.

I just really enjoyed Magnus' story, and felt that he was one of the few Primarchs that actually had a valid reason to turn traitor, him and Angron.

I do know you are a Space Woof player, so that explains your stance.

**Delvarus Centurion**

w1zard wrote:
Delvarus Centurion wrote:
You are biased against Russ I mean, probably because you are a thousand sons player.

For the record, I play guard, and I have a few old necrons laying around from third edition. I don't even own a single Thousand Sons mini. If I had to pick a chaos legion to play I'd pick Iron Warriors. I'll tell you what, if you don't believe me I'll give you my address and you can come over to my house and check. I just really enjoyed Magnus' story, and felt that he was one of the few Primarchs that actually had a valid reason to turn traitor, him and Angron.

I do know you are a Space Woof player, so that explains your stance.

I say you are biased because you are not arguing from a logical basis, if you are not biased then you are just holding on to not being proven wrong. Not that you are wrong as you can't prove this one way or the other, but logically and what we know of the lore, it is futile to suggest it was Russ' fault in any way, even if he desperately wanted to kill Magnus, which he didn't.

**Scott-S6**

w1zard wrote:

Russ' purpose was to be an astarte killer, a troubleshooter. He (maybe) purged two legions before, that is different than slaughtering an entire world full of innocent civilians just because they happen to be in the general vicinity of his target. There is nothing in the lore to suggest that Russ was ever ordered to participate in the wholesale slaughter of civilians at any point in his history.

How do you erase a legion and it's primarch so thoroughly that no-one except the primarchs and custodes remember they exist without a lot of collateral damage?

It's incredibly naive to think that didn't involve slaughtering their serfs, their fleet crew, the inhabitants of the primarch's homeworld, possibly even the inhabitants of worlds they've brought into compliance.

Furthermore, all of the legions have slaughtered worlds full of innocents for the terrible crimes of not wanting to join the Imperium, of being friendly with their xenos neighbours, of having different ideas about technology than the mechanicum, etc. None of them have clean hands.

**BrianDavion**

Delvarus Centurion wrote:
w1zard wrote:
Delvarus Centurion wrote:
You are biased against Russ I mean, probably because you are a thousand sons player.

For the record, I play guard, and I have a few old necrons laying around from third edition. I don't even own a single Thousand Sons mini. If I had to pick a chaos legion to play I'd pick Iron Warriors. I'll tell you what, if you don't believe me I'll give you my address and you can come over to my house and check. I just really enjoyed Magnus' story, and felt that he was one of the few Primarchs that actually had a valid reason to turn traitor, him and Angron.

I do know you are a Space Woof player, so that explains your stance.

I say you are biased because you are not arguing from a logical basis, if you are not biased then you are just holding on to not being proven wrong. Not that you are wrong as you can't prove this one way or the other, but logically and what we know of the lore, it is futile to suggest it was Russ' fault in any way, even if he desperately wanted to kill Magnus, which he didn't.

disagreeing with you is not "not arguing from a logical basis" He's simply looking at it from a differant view then you are. IMHO the Wolves did what they where trained to do and the Emperor knew damn well what would happen. If he had wanted a differant result he wouldn't have sent a buncha violent killers who had a known feud with the 1k sons, but would have instead sent, I dunno... the Ultramarines or something, (who you'll note The Emperor used when he censored Lorgar, presumably because he DIDN'T want an uncontrolled slaughter)

**w1zard**

Scott-S6 wrote:
Furthermore, all of the legions have slaughtered worlds full of innocents for the terrible crimes of not wanting to join the Imperium, of being friendly with their xenos neighbours, of having different ideas about technology than the mechanicum, etc. None of them have clean hands.

Those civilians weren't loyal Imperials though, so they don't really matter. It makes no sense why Curze and Perturabo would get 40k arrest warrants for genociding their home worlds, but when Russ does it (despite not being ordered to by the emperor) it's perfectly fine apparently.

Delvarus Centurion wrote:
...it is futile to suggest it was Russ' fault in any way, even if he desperately wanted to kill Magnus, which he didn't.

I think it is certainly debatable that Russ bears responsibility for what happened on Prospero. I think so, but I concede that it is very much a matter of opinion... which is the point of this thread. What is indisputable though was that Russ hated Magnus. I'm not sure how you are even arguing that after reading the HH books. I cannot think of two Primarchs who detested each other more (apart from the already aforementioned Dorn and Perturabo).

**BrianDavion**

One differance between Russ on Prosperio, and Cruz and Pert, is that Cruz and Pert slaughtered their home worlds in response to uprisings on it. this was basicly them failing one of their core responsaibilities. it IS a differance

**w1zard**

BrianDavion wrote:
One differance between Russ on Prosperio, and Cruz and Pert, is that Cruz and Pert slaughtered their home worlds in response to uprisings on it. this was basicly them failing one of their core responsaibilities. it IS a differance

So the crime is letting a rebellion happen on their homeworld and not the indiscriminate slaughter of Imperial citizens? That is not what the HH books made it seem like.

**Scott-S6**

w1zard wrote:
Scott-S6 wrote:
Furthermore, all of the legions have slaughtered worlds full of innocents for the terrible crimes of not wanting to join the Imperium, of being friendly with their xenos neighbours, of having different ideas about technology than the mechanicum, etc. None of them have clean hands.

Those civilians weren't loyal Imperials though, so they don't really matter. It makes no sense why Curze and Perturabo would get 40k arrest warrants for genociding their home worlds, but when Russ does it (despite not being ordered to by the emperor) it's perfectly fine apparently.

But all of the civilians that would have needed slaughtering to expunge all trace of the missing primarchs were. So it's not exactly a big surprise for Russ to not blink at those orders.

I'm also not sure what sort of censure you expected Russ to get at that point when Prospero was immediately followed by the full extent of the Heresy being revealed. Different priorities at that point.

**BrianDavion**

w1zard wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
One differance between Russ on Prosperio, and Cruz and Pert, is that Cruz and Pert slaughtered their home worlds in response to uprisings on it. this was basicly them failing one of their core responsaibilities. it IS a differance

So the crime is letting a rebellion happen on their homeworld and not the indiscriminate slaughter of Imperial citizens? That is not what the HH books made it seem like.

we've heard multiple stories of worlds slaughtered indiscriminatly during the crusade, some primarchs had their own opinions but the Emperor did not seem inclined to step in and apply punishment. IF we accept that Pert and Cruz really where going to be punished (i never happened after all. and in Pert's case it's ENTIRELY possiable it was all in his head) then we must look at the various factors at play here, and yes it does seem that the rebellion on their homeworld is an important distinction. this isn't to say the loss of life isn't a factor, but rather it's a matter of "as the appointed governer of this world you let the system get so out of hand, there was no apparent recourse other then the complete annialation of your world?" ANY Imperial governer who let that happen to a world would be on the chopping block.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Scott-S6 wrote:
w1zard wrote:
Scott-S6 wrote:
Furthermore, all of the legions have slaughtered worlds full of innocents for the terrible crimes of not wanting to join the Imperium, of being friendly with their xenos neighbours, of having different ideas about technology than the mechanicum, etc. None of them have clean hands.

Those civilians weren't loyal Imperials though, so they don't really matter. It makes no sense why Curze and Perturabo would get 40k arrest warrants for genociding their home worlds, but when Russ does it (despite not being ordered to by the emperor) it's perfectly fine apparently.

But all of the civilians that would have needed slaughtering to expunge all trace of the missing primarchs were. So it's not exactly a big surprise for Russ to not blink at those orders.

you're assuming mass purges of citizens would be nesscary. likely the only things purged would be fleet and army elements that accompanied those legions, and if the legions where destroyed fighting a xenos force like some have suggested (yet again the proof Russ had a hand in their demise? it's thin) then there wouldn't be much to clean up. the Rememeberances frtom what I've been able to read, a new thing towards the end of the crusade

**Scott-S6**

The legion's homeworld is going to just forget that the legion and the primarch were a thing? And never mention that to anyone ever? Seems pretty implausible.

As for the suggestion that they just got beaten by an enemy - the traitor legions were not expunged as thoroughly as the two lost legions. Simple failure seems utterly inadequate to explain their legacy.

**Delvarus Centurion**

BrianDavion wrote:
Delvarus Centurion wrote:
w1zard wrote:
Delvarus Centurion wrote:
You are biased against Russ I mean, probably because you are a thousand sons player.

For the record, I play guard, and I have a few old necrons laying around from third edition. I don't even own a single Thousand Sons mini. If I had to pick a chaos legion to play I'd pick Iron Warriors. I'll tell you what, if you don't believe me I'll give you my address and you can come over to my house and check. I just really enjoyed Magnus' story, and felt that he was one of the few Primarchs that actually had a valid reason to turn traitor, him and Angron.

I do know you are a Space Woof player, so that explains your stance.

I say you are biased because you are not arguing from a logical basis, if you are not biased then you are just holding on to not being proven wrong. Not that you are wrong as you can't prove this one way or the other, but logically and what we know of the lore, it is futile to suggest it was Russ' fault in any way, even if he desperately wanted to kill Magnus, which he didn't.

disagreeing with you is not "not arguing from a logical basis" He's simply looking at it from a differant view then you are. IMHO the Wolves did what they where trained to do and the Emperor knew damn well what would happen. If he had wanted a differant result he wouldn't have sent a buncha violent killers who had a known feud with the 1k sons, but would have instead sent, I dunno... the Ultramarines or something, (who you'll note The Emperor used when he censored Lorgar, presumably because he DIDN'T want an uncontrolled slaughter)

Yes it is, if he keeps ignoring the evidence he isn't arguing from logic. He keeps saying Russ was trigger happy but if he was, why did he wish for Magnus to get the lowest punishment at Nikaea, if he was trigger happy he'd want Magnus sanctioned there heavily. Maleficarum scares the fenrisians, its obvious that he just wanted Magnus to stop, if he let his anger towards Magnus cloud his actions he'd advocated a very extreme punishment at Nikaea.

**SHUPPET**

I really dislike w1zard, but he's not being bias here... He just disagrees. You on the other hand seem far too invested. Your opinion here is not some objectively correct wisdom, he is not being irrational for disagreeing, and from someone with no bias either way, I gotta say his interpretation seems fair enough to me

**Table**

Delvarus Centurion wrote:
w1zard wrote:
Delvarus Centurion wrote:
No he shouldn't of, he shouldn't of treated it with any suspicion. You're are just completely biased here there is no point in arguing with you.

I have already said the Magnus was not blameless in this whole thing either. Merely pointing out the fact that Russ was way too trigger happy, and willing to drop a command from the Emperor at a seconds notice when confronted with an excuse to visit destruction upon Magnus. He hated Magnus, badly. I think the only two Primarchs that hated each other anywhere as closely were Perturabo and Dorn. Had Russ stopped to consider things more carefully, followed the emperor's original orders, or made more of an attempt to get into touch with Magnus and speak with him then Horus would have been down a legion for the heresy and the loyalists may have even been up one.

The wolves slaughtered a loyalist legion, and an entire planet full of Imperial citizens that day and they were hailed as heroes because of it. The 1K Sons were definitely not the most perfect loyalists (and probably deserved to be heavily censured or made to do a penance crusade or something for breaking the edict) but they were still loyal to the Imperium at heart.

You are biased against Russ I mean, probably because you are a thousand sons player.

He wasn't trigger happy at all, he said he wanted Magnus to receive the least amount of punishment before Nikaea, that is not triggeer happy. He only hated Magnus after Magnus killed his warriors, it was nothing compared to Perty and Dorn. There was no reason for Russ to consider things more carefully. You think that because you know Horus went traitor, If Horus never went traitor why would Russ consider it at all. That's where your logic falls away, you are thinking with hindsight. Because Horus went traitor you think Russ should have known that somehow and therefore not trusted his orders. Imagine the Emperor turned to chaos, should Russ have considered not following the Emperors orders. That Horus would turn was nearly as unthinkable as the Emperor himself turning.

Russ and his wolves slaughters loyalists before, they killed many World Eaters, it was their job.

Don't fling around the "bias" argument. You are not looking so un-biased yourself. I mean its probably because you are a space wolf player.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Delvarus Centurion wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
Delvarus Centurion wrote:
w1zard wrote:
Delvarus Centurion wrote:
You are biased against Russ I mean, probably because you are a thousand sons player.

For the record, I play guard, and I have a few old necrons laying around from third edition. I don't even own a single Thousand Sons mini. If I had to pick a chaos legion to play I'd pick Iron Warriors. I'll tell you what, if you don't believe me I'll give you my address and you can come over to my house and check. I just really enjoyed Magnus' story, and felt that he was one of the few Primarchs that actually had a valid reason to turn traitor, him and Angron.

I do know you are a Space Woof player, so that explains your stance.

I say you are biased because you are not arguing from a logical basis, if you are not biased then you are just holding on to not being proven wrong. Not that you are wrong as you can't prove this one way or the other, but logically and what we know of the lore, it is futile to suggest it was Russ' fault in any way, even if he desperately wanted to kill Magnus, which he didn't.

disagreeing with you is not "not arguing from a logical basis" He's simply looking at it from a differant view then you are. IMHO the Wolves did what they where trained to do and the Emperor knew damn well what would happen. If he had wanted a differant result he wouldn't have sent a buncha violent killers who had a known feud with the 1k sons, but would have instead sent, I dunno... the Ultramarines or something, (who you'll note The Emperor used when he censored Lorgar, presumably because he DIDN'T want an uncontrolled slaughter)

Yes it is, if he keeps ignoring the evidence he isn't arguing from logic. He keeps saying Russ was trigger happy but if he was, why did he wish for Magnus to get the lowest punishment at Nikaea, if he was trigger happy he'd want Magnus sanctioned there heavily. Maleficarum scares the fenrisians, its obvious that he just wanted Magnus to stop, if he let his anger towards Magnus cloud his actions he'd advocated a very extreme punishment at Nikaea.

Russ is a attack dog. Its not his fault. He was written that way. Magnus did nothing wrong 2018.

Look. Everyone was wrong. No one was right. The only winner was chaos. And in reality, Tzeentch. He perfectly played the massive egos of the primmys to chaos's own end. And for that, your beloved Russ is as guilty as Magnus.

**Delvarus Centurion**

SHUPPET wrote:
I really dislike w1zard, but he's not being bias here... He just disagrees. You on the other hand seem far too invested. Your opinion here is not some objectively correct wisdom, he is not being irrational for disagreeing, and from someone with no bias either way, I gotta say his interpretation seems fair enough to me

I never said it was an objective position, I actually said the opposite a few comments before... But the arguments he's made are contrary to the lore.

**Delvarus Centurion**

Table wrote:
Delvarus Centurion wrote:
w1zard wrote:
Delvarus Centurion wrote:
No he shouldn't of, he shouldn't of treated it with any suspicion. You're are just completely biased here there is no point in arguing with you.

I have already said the Magnus was not blameless in this whole thing either. Merely pointing out the fact that Russ was way too trigger happy, and willing to drop a command from the Emperor at a seconds notice when confronted with an excuse to visit destruction upon Magnus. He hated Magnus, badly. I think the only two Primarchs that hated each other anywhere as closely were Perturabo and Dorn. Had Russ stopped to consider things more carefully, followed the emperor's original orders, or made more of an attempt to get into touch with Magnus and speak with him then Horus would have been down a legion for the heresy and the loyalists may have even been up one.

The wolves slaughtered a loyalist legion, and an entire planet full of Imperial citizens that day and they were hailed as heroes because of it. The 1K Sons were definitely not the most perfect loyalists (and probably deserved to be heavily censured or made to do a penance crusade or something for breaking the edict) but they were still loyal to the Imperium at heart.

You are biased against Russ I mean, probably because you are a thousand sons player.

He wasn't trigger happy at all, he said he wanted Magnus to receive the least amount of punishment before Nikaea, that is not triggeer happy. He only hated Magnus after Magnus killed his warriors, it was nothing compared to Perty and Dorn. There was no reason for Russ to consider things more carefully. You think that because you know Horus went traitor, If Horus never went traitor why would Russ consider it at all. That's where your logic falls away, you are thinking with hindsight. Because Horus went traitor you think Russ should have known that somehow and therefore not trusted his orders. Imagine the Emperor turned to chaos, should Russ have considered not following the Emperors orders. That Horus would turn was nearly as unthinkable as the Emperor himself turning.

Russ and his wolves slaughters loyalists before, they killed many World Eaters, it was their job.

Don't fling around the "bias" argument. You are not looking so un-biased yourself. I mean its probably because you are a space wolf player.

I'm not emotionally invested in my legions Primarchs etc. I accept their weaknesses failures etc. I accept for instance Russ was a hypocrite when it came to his own use of the warp, because the lore shows that. I know that the Lion even though he sucker punched Russ is at least his equal and is possibly even better in a dual.

**ZebioLizard2**

Delvarus Centurion wrote:
SHUPPET wrote:
I really dislike w1zard, but he's not being bias here... He just disagrees. You on the other hand seem far too invested. Your opinion here is not some objectively correct wisdom, he is not being irrational for disagreeing, and from someone with no bias either way, I gotta say his interpretation seems fair enough to me

I never said it was an objective position, I actually said the opposite a few comments before... But the arguments he's made are contrary to the lore.

We've seen your comments in the background lore section, you tend to argue contrary from lore as well.

**Orblivion**

BrianDavion wrote:
disagreeing with you is not "not arguing from a logical basis" He's simply looking at it from a differant view then you are. IMHO the Wolves did what they where trained to do and the Emperor knew damn well what would happen. If he had wanted a differant result he wouldn't have sent a buncha violent killers who had a known feud with the 1k sons, but would have instead sent, I dunno... the Ultramarines or something, (who you'll note The Emperor used when he censored Lorgar, presumably because he DIDN'T want an uncontrolled slaughter)

It is interesting to me though, that in both of those situations the Emperor chose the offending legion's rival as the enforcer. Was he just trying to humiliate them that much more by demonstrating their mistakes had placed their rivals in his favor?

**Delvarus Centurion**

ZebioLizard2 wrote:
Delvarus Centurion wrote:
SHUPPET wrote:
I really dislike w1zard, but he's not being bias here... He just disagrees. You on the other hand seem far too invested. Your opinion here is not some objectively correct wisdom, he is not being irrational for disagreeing, and from someone with no bias either way, I gotta say his interpretation seems fair enough to me

I never said it was an objective position, I actually said the opposite a few comments before... But the arguments he's made are contrary to the lore.
We've seen your comments in the background lore section, you tend to argue contrary from lore as well.

Yeah, go find a comment/quote where I do that. I here that a lot, never once been quoted doing that though, out of all of you 'we'. So forgive me If I don't take that seriously. If you had ever had an argument with me you'd know I admit I'm wrong all the time (I have an immense amount of people that would love to prove me wrong), if someone shows me lore that contradicts my argument, I'll admit I'm wrong. Even the people that can't stand me will admit that. I mean its ridiculous, people say I am too literal with the lore all the time and then they say I argue contrary to the lore. I quote from the lore more than anyone, so much so that people have started moaning about the length of the quotes I use. I mean you're just wrong, you've never even had an argument with me and you are just parroting what other people say, yeah people who have at least argued with me.