Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Magnus destroyed his Legion.

He made sure that they had no warning of the oncoming fleet and only came out of hiding when almsot all were dead and the planet was burning. Up untilo that point he did everything posisble to ensure that he and his legion were destroyedby the Emperor's forces - apparently out of shame and knowledge ot his own misjudgement,

He could have thrown himself on the mercy of the oncoming fleet or warned the Thousand Sons and the population. He did neither

 Manchu wrote:
I don't think you correctly apprehend the statement, which speaks to the latest possible date of Magnus's corruption - and emphatically NOT as to whether there is any question of his corruption. In short, far from that penultimate moment amid the fires of Tizca, we should look farther back to the period before Nikaea. And that's only sensible, considering why the Council was held to begin with, and further considering the extreme pronouncement of the Emperor at its conclusion.

But by all means, you would not be the first to ignore facts that don't suit you.

Are you this obnoxious with every disagreement you have? I'm entirely neutral... but your "facts" aren't facts however. There is literally zero confirmation of Magnus's corruption, just the "suspicions" of "probable" behavior from a single writer. Give me something legitimate I can actually reference to end this dispute and I'm all the way behind it, I'm not against you here.

Regardless of who was most at fault for Prospero i think that its safe to conclude that Magnus was entirely the wrong advocate for the Librarius .

The Khan Sanguinus and yes even stubborn jackass Russ could have worked together to create a Librarius that would have been palpable to the Emperor.

Magnus a man who did'nt believe that there where limits and who laughed off warnings about the dangers of the Warp doomed the Librarius project from the start due to his presence alone.

Yes Magnus was the greatest psyker next to the emperor but he lacked the humbleness to effectively win people over who did not already agree with him.

godking wrote:
Regardless of who was most at fault for Prospero i think that its safe to conclude that Magnus was entirely the wrong advocate for the Librarius .

The Khan Sanguinus and yes even stubborn jackass Russ could have worked together to create a Librarius that would have been palpable to the Emperor.

Magnus a man who did'nt believe that there where limits and who laughed off warnings about the dangers of the Warp doomed the Librarius project from the start due to his presence alone.

Yes Magnus was the greatest psyker next to the emperor but he lacked the humbleness to effectively win people over who did not already agree with him.

something essentially said outright in Wolfsbane BTW

 SHUPPET wrote:
Are you this obnoxious with every disagreement you have?

Ignoring arguments, shrugging off sources, and slinging insults - the trifecta of bad faith.

Prior to wolfbane I firmly believed Russ to be a traitor, not to the emperor but to his brothers and imperium at large, after realising his mistake he showed no remorse for his actions and continued to hound the surviving thousand sons, finally wolfsbane showed that Russ knew he had wronged Magnus and felt remorse for it, he knew he was a hypocrite and showed genuine remorse, this has made him a much more relatable character and I no longer hate the character, good job done expanding his character.

Acting like your interpretative meaning of a writers speculation and musings on the probability of something, turns your perspective into a hard fact that cannot be disputed

Declaring anyone with a differing opinion including neutral parties to be "picking the facts that suits them" while at the same time displaying a blatant bias and disregard for nuance

Rewriting the definition of emphyrical evidence to mean "anything that suits my perspective no matter how shaky"

Doing it all in an unnecessarily combative tone and then declaring yourself the victim when someone points out the obnoxious manner in which you're talking to people.






Why are you so invested in this? Try to be a bit more rational because your argument is very far from as concrete as you seem to think it is. Again I'm entirely neutral, and if there was hard proof of Magnus's corruption, I'm all the way behind it, it's entirely possible he was so I'd love to hear it so I have something to reference during these conversations to try put the hard questions to one of the people who seem to think they have all the answers. However, a writer saying that "some people speculated it was probable", is not the showstopper that you want it to be.

 Manchu wrote:
I don't think you correctly apprehend the statement, which speaks to the latest possible date of Magnus's corruption - and emphatically NOT as to whether there is any question of his corruption. In short, far from that penultimate moment amid the fires of Tizca, we should look farther back to the period before Nikaea. And that's only sensible, considering why the Council was held to begin with, and further considering the extreme pronouncement of the Emperor at its conclusion.

But by all means, you would not be the first to ignore facts that don't suit you.

There is also a lot of evidence of Astartes turning before they even realise they had. Perturabo for instance wanted nothing to do with daemons, being disgusted by the III legion, still showing concern for loyalists and having a big problem with the fact he was a traitor. Angron as well, he never spoke to daemons or used intermediaries, never cared at all about chaos until he turned into a daemon prince at Cath. I think turning to chaos is more complex and drawn out than making a deal, it seems to be a long process in most cases.

 Mr Morden wrote:
He could have thrown himself on the mercy of the oncoming fleet or warned the Thousand Sons and the population. He did neither.

Excellent point, and well said. Magnus was so deeply in denial about his own limitations, morally as well as psychically, that he sacrificed everything on an alter to Tzeentch.

godking wrote:
Magnus a man who did'nt believe that there where limits and who laughed off warnings about the dangers of the Warp doomed the Librarius project from the start due to his presence alone.

Completely correct. In the same vein, the Council of Nikaea was about him. We talk about it like it was about the legions generally, like for the sake of polite relations among the leaders of the Imperium, but the Emperor made it completely clear that this was actually about Magnus personally.

 Formosa wrote:
finally wolfsbane showed that Russ knew he had wronged Magnus and felt remorse for it

Yes indeed, there is after all a difference between heroes and villains. Magnus is a villain. He's an interesting one, and not a moustache twirler. In his arrogance, he hoped for better things and longed for his ideals. The road to hell ...

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
I think turning to chaos is more complex and drawn out than making a deal, it seems to be a long process in most cases.

This certainly true. Seeds are sown long before the harvest is finally reaped.

thing is good villians with more depth then mustach twirling disney villians do tend to have people sympathize for them, even when the author thinks maybe they shouldn't. I remember reading an interview with the writers for DS9 that they where SHOCKED how much support Gul Dukat had among fans, because yeah he could justify it. even though the intent was always "villians are not people who think they are evil, they can always justify their actions"

Yes, it's one thing to like the character becausehe's entertaining and fascinating; it's quite another thing to claim the character's actions are justified. Gul Dukat is a really good example.

 Formosa wrote:
Prior to wolfbane I firmly believed Russ to be a traitor, not to the emperor but to his brothers and imperium at large, after realising his mistake he showed no remorse for his actions and continued to hound the surviving thousand sons, finally wolfsbane showed that Russ knew he had wronged Magnus and felt remorse for it, he knew he was a hypocrite and showed genuine remorse, this has made him a much more relatable character and I no longer hate the character, good job done expanding his character.

Lol then why are people here trying to pretend that Russ didn't do "wrong" by Magnus? This whole discussion was never about Magnus deserving it (he probably did), or what Magnus did to put himself in that situation (a lot). It was about the Wolves and their actions on Prospero.

 SHUPPET wrote:
Again I'm entirely neutral, and if there was hard proof of Magnus's corruption, I'm all the way behind it, it's entirely possible he was so I'd love to hear it so I have something to reference during these conversations to try put the hard questions to one of the people who seem to think they have all the answers. However, a writer saying that "some people speculated it was probable", is not the showstopper that you want it to be.

In all fairness, I agree that Magnus was WAY corrupted by that point, probably even to the point where he was irredeemable. My argument was simply that Russ overstepped his authority by attempting to kill Magnus and purge Prospero, when he was explicitly ordered to do otherwise by the Emperor. I also don't think that "well Horus tricked him" is a strong enough excuse to let Russ off the hook entirely, because in all likelihood the reason WHY Horus was able to trick him successfully was because of Russ' strong hatred of Magnus. I also was trying to point out that what Russ did could have very well gotten him and his entire legion declared traitors if it happened at a different time, which people are trying to debate and I don't understand why.

You can't understand why the SW and the Emperor's Talons did what they did without understanding what provoked and justified it.

 Manchu wrote:
You can't understand why the SW and the Emperor's Talons did what they did without understanding what provoked and justified it.

Provoked? Absolutely. Justified? No. Stepping outside of your authority to mete out extrajudicial punishment to someone you have a vendetta against is never justified no matter what they did. Horus didn't have the authority to order Russ to attack another legion, only the Emperor had the power to order that and we know that he did NOT order Russ to attack the Thousand Sons. Russ was empowered to bring Magnus back to Terra alive, nothing more.

w1zard wrote:

 Formosa wrote:
Prior to wolfbane I firmly believed Russ to be a traitor, not to the emperor but to his brothers and imperium at large, after realising his mistake he showed no remorse for his actions and continued to hound the surviving thousand sons, finally wolfsbane showed that Russ knew he had wronged Magnus and felt remorse for it, he knew he was a hypocrite and showed genuine remorse, this has made him a much more relatable character and I no longer hate the character, good job done expanding his character.

Lol then why are people here trying to pretend that Russ didn't do "wrong" by Magnus? This whole discussion was never about Magnus deserving it (he probably did), or what Magnus did to put himself in that situation (a lot). It was about the Wolves and their actions on Prospero.

 SHUPPET wrote:
Again I'm entirely neutral, and if there was hard proof of Magnus's corruption, I'm all the way behind it, it's entirely possible he was so I'd love to hear it so I have something to reference during these conversations to try put the hard questions to one of the people who seem to think they have all the answers. However, a writer saying that "some people speculated it was probable", is not the showstopper that you want it to be.

In all fairness, I agree that Magnus was WAY corrupted by that point, probably even to the point where he was irredeemable. My argument was simply that Russ overstepped his authority by attempting to kill Magnus and purge Prospero, when he was explicitly ordered to do otherwise by the Emperor. I also don't think that "well Horus tricked him" is a strong enough excuse to let Russ off the hook entirely, because in all likelihood the reason WHY Horus was able to trick him successfully was because of Russ' strong hatred of Magnus. I also was trying to point out that what Russ did could have very well gotten him and his entire legion declared traitors if it happened at a different time, which people are trying to debate and I don't understand why.

the only person trying to pretend is you if you think Russ did anything wrong.

Dude you are sooooooo not neutral. Okay still think he did something wrong but saying this "when he was explicitly ordered to do otherwise by the Emperor. " when multiple people have proven you wrong, Horus had full authority to order Russ to do what he did and Russ had no authority not to do what he ordered. Horus was warmaster, he had 'full' authority when it comes to issues of the Great Crusade. Ask yourself this, if Horus did not have the authority to do what he did, why was Russ never called into dispute because of it, not even a mention, Malcador talked to him after that, he never said 'yeah you shouldn't have dome that.' The Emperor even condoned what Russ did:


Malcador and the Emperor:

"Alpharius… my son, what chance did you give my dream? Ah, even when war presses in from all
sides, my sons still seek to press their advantage. They are like the feudal lords of old, scenting
opportunity for their own advancement in the fires of adversity.
The regret pained Malcador’s thoughts.
‘Russ still plans to fight Horus eye to eye,’ said Malcador. ‘He sends my Knights to guide his blade and
no words of mine can sway him from his course.’
You think he should not fight Horus?
‘Russ is your executioner,’ said Malcador tactfully. ‘But his axe falls a little too readily these days.
Magnus felt it, now Horus will feel it.’
Two rebel angels. His axe falls on those deserving its smile.
‘And what happens when Russ takes it upon himself to decide who is loyal and who deserves
execution?’
Russ is true-hearted, one of the few I know will never fall.
‘You suspect others may prove false?’
To my eternal regret, I do.
‘Who?’
Another long pause made Malcador fear his question would remain unanswered, but at last the Emperor
replied.
The Khan makes a virtue of being unknowable, of being the mystery that none can answer. Some
among his Legion have already embraced treachery, and others may yet.
‘What would you have me do, my lord?’
Keep watching him, Malcador. Watch the Khan more closely than any other.

what books that quote from Del? I'm curious.

BrianDavion wrote:
what books that quote from Del? I'm curious.

Vengeful Spirit.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
what books that quote from Del? I'm curious.

Vengeful Spirit.

thanks, I've been meaning to re-read that one

BrianDavion wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
what books that quote from Del? I'm curious.

Vengeful Spirit.

thanks, I've been meaning to re-read that one

Its a page turner.

I got to thinking if sending the Space Wolves was the worst decision the Emperor could have made regarding Magnus.

I decided no. It'd be pretty funny to read an alt-history version where the Death Guard, World Eaters, or Night Lords had been tasked with bringing the Thousand Sons back to Terra.

The Alpha Legion might have sent a party barge to Prospero with a sign saying "Free Magick books inside!" filled with Sisters of Silence.

 EmpNortonII wrote:
I got to thinking if sending the Space Wolves was the worst decision the Emperor could have made regarding Magnus.

I decided no. It'd be pretty funny to read an alt-history version where the Death Guard, World Eaters, or Night Lords had been tasked with bringing the Thousand Sons back to Terra.

The Alpha Legion might have sent a party barge to Prospero with a sign saying "Free Magick books inside!" filled with Sisters of Silence.

Depends, if they got the same message from Horus I think it would have ended up the same.

w1zard wrote:

 Formosa wrote:
Prior to wolfbane I firmly believed Russ to be a traitor, not to the emperor but to his brothers and imperium at large, after realising his mistake he showed no remorse for his actions and continued to hound the surviving thousand sons, finally wolfsbane showed that Russ knew he had wronged Magnus and felt remorse for it, he knew he was a hypocrite and showed genuine remorse, this has made him a much more relatable character and I no longer hate the character, good job done expanding his character.

Lol then why are people here trying to pretend that Russ didn't do "wrong" by Magnus? This whole discussion was never about Magnus deserving it (he probably did), or what Magnus did to put himself in that situation (a lot). It was about the Wolves and their actions on Prospero.

 SHUPPET wrote:
Again I'm entirely neutral, and if there was hard proof of Magnus's corruption, I'm all the way behind it, it's entirely possible he was so I'd love to hear it so I have something to reference during these conversations to try put the hard questions to one of the people who seem to think they have all the answers. However, a writer saying that "some people speculated it was probable", is not the showstopper that you want it to be.

In all fairness, I agree that Magnus was WAY corrupted by that point, probably even to the point where he was irredeemable. My argument was simply that Russ overstepped his authority by attempting to kill Magnus and purge Prospero, when he was explicitly ordered to do otherwise by the Emperor. I also don't think that "well Horus tricked him" is a strong enough excuse to let Russ off the hook entirely, because in all likelihood the reason WHY Horus was able to trick him successfully was because of Russ' strong hatred of Magnus. I also was trying to point out that what Russ did could have very well gotten him and his entire legion declared traitors if it happened at a different time, which people are trying to debate and I don't understand why.

Stop talking nonsense, I’m not pretending anything and if that’s what you got from what I wrote then I agree with others here and you are showing very clear bias.

w1zard wrote:

 Manchu wrote:
You can't understand why the SW and the Emperor's Talons did what they did without understanding what provoked and justified it.

Provoked? Absolutely. Justified? No. Stepping outside of your authority to mete out extrajudicial punishment to someone you have a vendetta against is never justified no matter what they did. Horus didn't have the authority to order Russ to attack another legion, only the Emperor had the power to order that and we know that he did NOT order Russ to attack the Thousand Sons. Russ was empowered to bring Magnus back to Terra alive, nothing more.

False Gods p405
'But what of Magnus' asked Maloghurst urgently, 'What happens when Russ returns him to Terra?'

Horus smiled. 'Calm yourself, Mal. I have already contacted my brother Russ and illuminated him with the full breadth of Magnus's treacherous use of daemonic spells and conjurations. He was... suitably angry, and I believe I have convinced him that to return Magnus to Terra would be a waste of time and effort'

There are other quotes I have in regards to this but the search function does not want to work for me at all. One about what Ahriman reveals to Wyrdmake before he feeds his soul to the terrors of the warp, where Russ receives the order from Horus and Valdor urges Russ to follow his command.

Horus is Warmaster and speaks with the authority of the Emperor to disobey Horus is to disobey the Emperor. At this moment in time Russ has no reason to not trust the words of Horus, even though one of his own troops warned him of Horus betrayal in Prospero Burns before he had received the decree from the Emperor.

 Pilau Rice wrote:

w1zard wrote:

 Manchu wrote:
You can't understand why the SW and the Emperor's Talons did what they did without understanding what provoked and justified it.

Provoked? Absolutely. Justified? No. Stepping outside of your authority to mete out extrajudicial punishment to someone you have a vendetta against is never justified no matter what they did. Horus didn't have the authority to order Russ to attack another legion, only the Emperor had the power to order that and we know that he did NOT order Russ to attack the Thousand Sons. Russ was empowered to bring Magnus back to Terra alive, nothing more.

False Gods p405
'But what of Magnus' asked Maloghurst urgently, 'What happens when Russ returns him to Terra?'

Horus smiled. 'Calm yourself, Mal. I have already contacted my brother Russ and illuminated him with the full breadth of Magnus's treacherous use of daemonic spells and conjurations. He was... suitably angry, and I believe I have convinced him that to return Magnus to Terra would be a waste of time and effort'

There are other quotes I have in regards to this but the search function does not want to work for me at all. One about what Ahriman reveals to Wyrdmake before he feeds his soul to the terrors of the warp, where Russ receives the order from Horus and Valdor urges Russ to follow his command.

Horus is Warmaster and speaks with the authority of the Emperor to disobey Horus is to disobey the Emperor. At this moment in time Russ has no reason to not trust the words of Horus, even though one of his own troops warned him of Horus betrayal in Prospero Burns before he had received the decree from the Emperor.

the problem is that the warning about Horus' treachery came from a space wolves rune preist who'd been trying to unmuck Hawser. which made it largely suspect as Russ belvied at the time Hawser had been corrupted by 1K son "Malificarium" in short "was that warning real?" "Nah, just Magnus trying to confuse us"

BrianDavion wrote:
the problem is that the warning about Horus' treachery came from a space wolves rune preist who'd been trying to unmuck Hawser. which made it largely suspect as Russ belvied at the time Hawser had been corrupted by 1K son "Malificarium" in short "was that warning real?" "Nah, just Magnus trying to confuse us"

Indeed, but then you get a a message to go and bring your brother back because he's risked everything by sending a psychic message to your father about your other brother going traitor. Hadn't he heard something like that before ... Erring on the side of caution might have been prudent. But it is Russ after all. Imagine the outcome if Russ had had a tea and a biscuit with Magnus and good natter. Tzeentch would be like dóh

 Pilau Rice wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
the problem is that the warning about Horus' treachery came from a space wolves rune preist who'd been trying to unmuck Hawser. which made it largely suspect as Russ belvied at the time Hawser had been corrupted by 1K son "Malificarium" in short "was that warning real?" "Nah, just Magnus trying to confuse us"

Indeed, but then you get a a message to go and bring your brother back because he's risked everything by sending a psychic message to your father about your other brother going traitor. Hadn't he heard something like that before ... Erring on the side of caution might have been prudent. But it is Russ after all. Imagine the outcome if Russ had had a tea and a biscuit with Magnus and good natter. Tzeentch would be like dóh

Yeah but Russ knew that involved Melfecarum so he didn't take it seriously.

"e had been right all along. All along. This is his ploy.’
‘Do you know what was so unthinkable? asked Hawser.
‘Magnus claimed that great Horus was about to turn against the Imperium,’said Russ. ‘From the look
on your face, Ahmad Ibn Rustah, I see you recognise how ridiculous that sounds.’
Hawser switched his gaze to Helwintr. The priest’s masked face was unreadable.
‘Wolf King, great lord,’ Hawser began, ‘that’s not the first time that warnings concerning the
Warmaster have been voiced. Please, lord—’
‘Our skjald refers to the incident involving Eada Haelfwulf, lord,’said Helwintr.
‘I know of it,’ said Russ. ‘It seems corroborative, I grant you. But once again, consider the strategy.
It involved maleficarum turning and twisting one of our own gothi, in the immediate vicinity of you,
an identified conduit for the enemy’s power. Of course poor Haelfwulf would gabble out the same
damned lie with his dying breath. It’s supposed to make Magnus’s story sound more credible by
coming from a secondary source.’


Russ himself didn't want to kill Magnus:

"The Wolf King turned to Helwintr and the escort. ‘Take him away, but keep him with us, right to the advance. I want that channel to my brother left open. My poor brother. I want him to see us coming. I want him to know it’ll never be too late for him to beg for mercy.’ ‘My lord,’said Hawser. ‘What happens now?’ ‘Now?’ Leman Russ replied. ‘Now, Prospero falls.’"

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

 Pilau Rice wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
the problem is that the warning about Horus' treachery came from a space wolves rune preist who'd been trying to unmuck Hawser. which made it largely suspect as Russ belvied at the time Hawser had been corrupted by 1K son "Malificarium" in short "was that warning real?" "Nah, just Magnus trying to confuse us"

Indeed, but then you get a a message to go and bring your brother back because he's risked everything by sending a psychic message to your father about your other brother going traitor. Hadn't he heard something like that before ... Erring on the side of caution might have been prudent. But it is Russ after all. Imagine the outcome if Russ had had a tea and a biscuit with Magnus and good natter. Tzeentch would be like dóh

No, that happened after the burning of Prospero, there as no warning of Horus turning until after the city had been sacked.

Pretty sure there was, one that wasn't heeded and as BrianDavion points out, probably put down to Magnus meddling.

 Pilau Rice wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

 Pilau Rice wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
the problem is that the warning about Horus' treachery came from a space wolves rune preist who'd been trying to unmuck Hawser. which made it largely suspect as Russ belvied at the time Hawser had been corrupted by 1K son "Malificarium" in short "was that warning real?" "Nah, just Magnus trying to confuse us"

Indeed, but then you get a a message to go and bring your brother back because he's risked everything by sending a psychic message to your father about your other brother going traitor. Hadn't he heard something like that before ... Erring on the side of caution might have been prudent. But it is Russ after all. Imagine the outcome if Russ had had a tea and a biscuit with Magnus and good natter. Tzeentch would be like dóh

No, that happened after the burning of Prospero, there as no warning of Horus turning until after the city had been sacked.

Pretty sure there was, one that wasn't heeded and as BrianDavion points out, probably put down to Magnus meddling.

I edited my comment, you're right that did happen before, but read the edit ^^

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

I edited my comment, you're right that did happen before, but read the edit ^^

That's the one.

He puts it down to being malificarum at the hands of Magnus, which turns out to be entirely wrong. If he had paid even a little heed to the chance that Horus might have turned from the Emperor then things would have been a lot different for both Legions. Hindsight is a bitch

 Pilau Rice wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

I edited my comment, you're right that did happen before, but read the edit ^^

That's the one.

He puts it down to being malificarum at the hands of Magnus, which turns out to be entirely wrong. If he had paid even a little heed to the chance that Horus might have turned from the Emperor then things would have been a lot different for both Legions. Hindsight is a bitch

Yeah I don't know, I mean they know the warp can't be trusted so, still unthinkable for Horus to have gone traitor in the eyes of his brothers, not just that but the whole Imperium.