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2018/09/06 02:30:09
Subject: Re:Persuasive argument - Can you defend the Space Wolves for the Prospero incident?
It's a HUGE if. Plus it's way easier said than done to find a gateway. Humans can't interact with them so they're useless so he has to use the one in the Throne. So humanity is funnelled down a single path. So they have no numbers advantage because they're bottlenecked, they can't bring their superior firepower because they're limited to scout Titans whereas the Eldar have starships to use, the terrain itself is changing to block humans and even if humans get past this first bottleneck they're still trapped by the fact the Eldar can seal off the parts they lose.
Taking the Webway would be a very long, very bloody war that was incredibly hard to win and at the end of it the Eldar could just destroy it. If they're going to lose the Webway they can just destroy parts of it which maintains their advantage and leaves the Imperium massively drained with no gain.
It's not an if - a gateway and webway section linking it the existing webway was constructed. The ability to do that means that a settled is portion of what is not catastrophic.
The eldar didn't create the webway - try found it and learned how to work with it, no reason that humanity can't do the same.
It was actually going pretty well up to the point that it was filled with daemons thanks to magnus.
2018/09/06 12:44:55
Subject: Persuasive argument - Can you defend the Space Wolves for the Prospero incident?
It's a HUGE if. Plus it's way easier said than done to find a gateway. Humans can't interact with them so they're useless so he has to use the one in the Throne. So humanity is funnelled down a single path. So they have no numbers advantage because they're bottlenecked, they can't bring their superior firepower because they're limited to scout Titans whereas the Eldar have starships to use, the terrain itself is changing to block humans and even if humans get past this first bottleneck they're still trapped by the fact the Eldar can seal off the parts they lose.
Taking the Webway would be a very long, very bloody war that was incredibly hard to win and at the end of it the Eldar could just destroy it. If they're going to lose the Webway they can just destroy parts of it which maintains their advantage and leaves the Imperium massively drained with no gain.
It's not an if - a gateway and webway section linking it the existing webway was constructed. The ability to do that means that a settled is portion of what is not catastrophic.
The eldar didn't create the webway - try found it and learned how to work with it, no reason that humanity can't do the same.
It was actually going pretty well up to the point that it was filled with daemons thanks to magnus.
There's a lot of difference between the Emperor making a new path between A and B and rebuilding the entire Webway almost from scratch while it's full of demons which the Eldar could very easily do.
I think it's more accurate to say the Eldar inherited it than found it.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
BrianDavion wrote: keep in mind the emperor was so long lived his plan proably was a matter of "thousands of years"
But he either lacked the patience or ability to work in that time frame otherwise we wouldn't have crazy Mechanicus. The Emperor is incredibly inconsistent because of how 40k is written.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/09/06 12:45:45
tremere47-fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate, leads to triple riptide spam
2018/09/06 13:07:58
Subject: Persuasive argument - Can you defend the Space Wolves for the Prospero incident?
Delvarus Centurion wrote: the only person trying to pretend is you if you think Russ did anything wrong.
Dude you are sooooooo not neutral. Okay still think he did something wrong but saying this "when he was explicitly ordered to do otherwise by the Emperor. " when multiple people have proven you wrong, Horus had full authority to order Russ to do what he did and Russ had no authority not to do what he ordered. Horus was warmaster, he had 'full' authority when it comes to issues of the Great Crusade. Ask yourself this, if Horus did not have the authority to do what he did, why was Russ never called into dispute because of it, not even a mention, Malcador talked to him after that, he never said 'yeah you shouldn't have dome that.' The Emperor even condoned what Russ did:
I'm sure if Horus started to order the legions to attack each other the Emperor would have something to say about it. Horus wields his authority because the Emperor granted it to him, it doesn't give Horus the right to do whatever he wants if it runs contrary to the Imperium's interest. Horus had no authority to order the wolves to attack Prospero, especially since the EMPEROR order the wolves to arrest Magnus.
Delvarus Centurion wrote: ‘And what happens when Russ takes it upon himself to decide who is loyal and who deserves execution?’
Malcador had a point... The Emperor's only response to that was "nah I trust him", which is kind of foolish in my mind. This exchange only proves that Imperium looked the other way when it came to the wolves, not that the wolves can do no wrong. Are you seriously arguing that Russ could have done whatever he wanted and that makes it ok because the Emperor trusts him?
Formosa wrote: Prior to wolfbane I firmly believed Russ to be a traitor, not to the emperor but to his brothers and imperium at large, after realising his mistake he showed no remorse for his actions and continued to hound the surviving thousand sons, finally wolfsbane showed that Russ knew he had wronged Magnus and felt remorse for it, he knew he was a hypocrite and showed genuine remorse, this has made him a much more relatable character and I no longer hate the character, good job done expanding his character.
Lol then why are people here trying to pretend that Russ didn't do "wrong" by Magnus? This whole discussion was never about Magnus deserving it (he probably did), or what Magnus did to put himself in that situation (a lot). It was about the Wolves and their actions on Prospero.
Stop talking nonsense, I’m not pretending anything and if that’s what you got from what I wrote then I agree with others here and you are showing very clear bias.
What??? You are the one saying Russ felt bad for wronging Magnus, I thought you were agreeing with me. In order to feel bad for "wronging" someone you have to do "wrong".
Horus had the authority to do whatever he wanted, after the fact he'd be rebuked for extreme wrong doing on part of his orders. How is Russ to decide in advance of the legitimacy of Horus' orders?
No the Emperor condoned Russ' actions at Prospero. People down play Magnus' actions because he was trying to help. He appeared to the Emperor as a daemon and the devastation he caused was unparalleled. Plus his actions when confronted by the Wolves obviously made the Emperor agree with Russ killing him even though he never ordered him to do it.
I never argued that Russ could do what ever the he wanted because the Emperor trust him.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/09/06 14:05:48
2018/09/06 20:03:52
Subject: Persuasive argument - Can you defend the Space Wolves for the Prospero incident?
I always wondered why this was. Did he finally realize that Magnus was too far gone? Was it because the Emperor didn't want to alienate Russ? Was it because Horus tricked Russ? Was it some combination of the three?
I always assumed that the Emperor wanted Magnus arrested instead of killed because Magnus could have helped repair the damage to the webway project and then be forced to sit on the Golden Throne as punishment so the Emperor wouldn't have to. It seems kind of odd that Russ turns up back at Terra without Magnus and says "nah I blew up his planet and tried to kill him instead of arresting him like you said" and the Emperor just went "sure that's fine!"
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/09/06 20:04:19
2018/09/06 21:14:33
Subject: Persuasive argument - Can you defend the Space Wolves for the Prospero incident?
BrianDavion wrote: keep in mind the emperor was so long lived his plan proably was a matter of "thousands of years"
But he either lacked the patience or ability to work in that time frame otherwise we wouldn't have crazy Mechanicus. The Emperor is incredibly inconsistent because of how 40k is written.
you mean his lack of patiencve as in where her interred a the dragon under Mars in ~300 AD as part of a long term plan to ensure Mars became a center of technological development for mankinds future empire?
Yeah you're gonna have to prove the emperor lacked patience because we have ample examples of his capability for long term planning
Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two
2018/09/06 21:20:48
Subject: Persuasive argument - Can you defend the Space Wolves for the Prospero incident?
BrianDavion wrote: keep in mind the emperor was so long lived his plan proably was a matter of "thousands of years"
But he either lacked the patience or ability to work in that time frame otherwise we wouldn't have crazy Mechanicus. The Emperor is incredibly inconsistent because of how 40k is written.
you mean his lack of patiencve as in where her interred a the dragon under Mars in ~300 AD as part of a long term plan to ensure Mars became a center of technological development for mankinds future empire?
Yeah you're gonna have to prove the emperor lacked patience because we have ample examples of his capability for long term planning
How does the dragon do that?
Okay. He finds the Mechanicum as a bunch of crazy tech priets. Rather than spend some time fixing it so they became competent he did nothing. Now we have an empire where it takes 200 years to okay swapping guns around on a tank.
tremere47-fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate, leads to triple riptide spam
2018/09/06 21:38:06
Subject: Persuasive argument - Can you defend the Space Wolves for the Prospero incident?
I always wondered why this was. Did he finally realize that Magnus was too far gone? Was it because the Emperor didn't want to alienate Russ? Was it because Horus tricked Russ? Was it some combination of the three?
I always assumed that the Emperor wanted Magnus arrested instead of killed because Magnus could have helped repair the damage to the webway project and then be forced to sit on the Golden Throne as punishment so the Emperor wouldn't have to. It seems kind of odd that Russ turns up back at Terra without Magnus and says "nah I blew up his planet and tried to kill him instead of arresting him like you said" and the Emperor just went "sure that's fine!"
He never told Russ he condoned it, he told Malcador so definitely not so as not to alienate him, seems like he realised how far gone Magnus was.
Russ thought he could take Magnus as a prisoner, it wasn't till he got to Prospero that he realised that he couldn't. The emperor wanted him arrested when he made the order but maybe he changed his mind after talking with Russ. Maybe he knew the last act could only be done by turning into a daemon prince who knows.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/09/06 21:47:41
2018/09/06 22:39:00
Subject: Persuasive argument - Can you defend the Space Wolves for the Prospero incident?
Delvarus Centurion wrote: Russ thought he could take Magnus as a prisoner, it wasn't till he got to Prospero that he realised that he couldn't. The emperor wanted him arrested when he made the order but maybe he changed his mind after talking with Russ. Maybe he knew the last act could only be done by turning into a daemon prince who knows.
When Russ set out from Terra, yes I agree he fully intended to arrest Magnus. After he spoke to Horus on the way though he fully intended not to... Valdor even argued with him saying it wasn't what the emperor wanted. It's not like Russ showed up to Prospero and then made the hard descision not to take Magnus alive, Russ made that decision well before he got there. By the time Russ got to Prospero he was locked and loaded and started shooting immediately.
Proof:
Spoiler:
"At Beta-Garmon, Russ was met not only by those warriors of his own Legion who had heeded his call, namely the battle-scarred warriors of the Third, Ninth and Eleventh Great Companies, but also by a detachment of warriors in the sea-green armour of the newly anointed Sons of Horus. At the behest of the Warmaster himself these warriors were pledged to aid the Wolf King in his dire task- their leader, Overseer Boros Kurn, bore personal communications from Horus to his brother, Leman Russ. The exact contents of these missives have never been made available to scholars of the later Imperium, indeed it is highly likely that no one other than Leman Russ and Horus themselves will ever know what arguments were brought to bear. But what is known now by the dire events which were to transpire on Prospero is that after viewing the contents of the message and hearing the words of his brother, Leman Russ let it be known among his sons that he no longer intended simply to capture Magnus, but instead to see him slain.
Before leaving Beta-Garmon, a quantity of phosphex equal to that consumed commonly by a full system-wide life purge campaign was transferred to the Space Wolves ships, along with a variety of Exterminatus grade capital ship munitions, including several bio-alchemical warheads of a classification previously deemed too dangerous to be used within the borders of the Imperium. These and other acquisitions speak of the Wolf King's new intentions for Magnus and the people of Prospero."
What I want to know is why the Emperor was so forgiving afterward, especially when he knew Russ didn't do what he ordered. I highly suspect it was because the wolves were needed for the upcoming Horus Heresy and the Emperor couldn't afford to alienate them, or Russ by extension.
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2018/09/06 22:45:43
2018/09/06 22:45:19
Subject: Persuasive argument - Can you defend the Space Wolves for the Prospero incident?
Delvarus Centurion wrote: Russ thought he could take Magnus as a prisoner, it wasn't till he got to Prospero that he realised that he couldn't. The emperor wanted him arrested when he made the order but maybe he changed his mind after talking with Russ. Maybe he knew the last act could only be done by turning into a daemon prince who knows.
When Russ set out from Terra, yes I agree he fully intended to arrest Magnus. After he spoke to Horus on the way though he fully intended not to... Valdor even argued with him saying it wasn't what the emperor wanted. It's not like Russ showed up to Prospero and then made the hard descision not to take Magnus alive, Russ made that decision well before he got there.
Proof:
Spoiler:
"At Beta-Garmon, Russ was met not only by those warriors of his own Legion who had heeded his call, namely the battle-scarred warriors of the Third, Ninth and Eleventh Great Companies, but also by a detachment of warriors in the sea-green armour of the newly anointed Sons of Horus. At the behest of the Warmaster himself these warriors were pledged to aid the Wolf King in his dire task- their leader, Overseer Boros Kurn, bore personal communications from Horus to his brother, Leman Russ. The exact contents of these missives have never been made available to scholars of the later Imperium, indeed it is highly likely that no one other than Leman Russ and Horus themselves will ever know what arguments were brought to bear. But what is known now by the dire events which were to transpire on Prospero is that after viewing the contents of the message and hearing the words of his brother, Leman Russ let it be known among his sons that he no longer intended simply to capture Magnus, but instead to see him slain.
Before leaving Beta-Garmon, a quantity of phosphex equal to that consumed commonly by a full system-wide life purge campaign was transferred to the Space Wolves ships, along with a variety of Exterminatus grade capital ship munitions, including several bio-alchemical warheads of a classification previously deemed too dangerous to be used within the borders of the Imperium. These and other acquisitions speak of the Wolf King's new intentions for Magnus and the people of Prospero."
Well that is new lore contradicting the old so I'll have to concede ,which is ignorance of the writer (hate it when that happens) but we have to all agree on new lore trumping old, but that wasn't so before as this quote was after the message, :
""The Wolf King turned to Helwintr and the escort. ‘Take him away, but keep him with us, right to the advance. I want that channel to my brother left open. My poor brother. I want him to see us coming. I want him to know it’ll never be too late for him to beg for mercy.’ ‘My lord,’said Hawser. ‘What happens now?’ ‘Now?’ Leman Russ replied. ‘Now, Prospero falls."
But you arguing that is actually you agreeing that Russ did nothing wrong. Russ intended to Arrest him and then Horus told him to kill him and added information that convinced him. This isn't 'Russ wanted him dead because he hated him' kind of evidence that you were originally presenting. I think now you'd have to admit, it was fethed up what happened to Magnus, but Russ was only the tool.
This message was edited 6 times. Last update was at 2018/09/06 22:49:34
2018/09/06 22:50:34
Subject: Persuasive argument - Can you defend the Space Wolves for the Prospero incident?
Delvarus Centurion wrote: But you arguing that is actually you agreeing that Russ did nothing wrong. Russ intended to Arrest him and then Horus told him to kill him and added information that convinced him.
Sure, Horus tricked Russ or convinced him into attacking Magnus, and I don't deny that.
My point was that why is it ok for Russ to get a pass when he gets tricked into serving chaos, but not anyone else? I mean come on, if it were anyone else but Russ who led the attack on Prospero they'd be declared excommunicate traitoris before they could even blink, especially since it went in defiance of a direct order from the Emperor himself. Exterminating an Imperial world (even in open rebellion, which Prospero certainly was not) was also something that previous Primarchs (Curze and Perturabo) had gotten into massive trouble over in the past.
And why was the emperor so forgiving to Russ afterward, when Russ showed up empty handed? I cannot help but think that the Emperor knew that the feud between Magnus and Russ was too great, and that it was better to have the wolves on the loyalist side during the heresy then have both the wolves AND the 1k sons be traitors. Magnus was fethed either way, so condoning Russ' actions post-facto was the Emperor's way of salvaging what he could from the situation.
This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2018/09/06 23:02:30
2018/09/06 23:00:25
Subject: Persuasive argument - Can you defend the Space Wolves for the Prospero incident?
Delvarus Centurion wrote: Russ thought he could take Magnus as a prisoner, it wasn't till he got to Prospero that he realised that he couldn't. The emperor wanted him arrested when he made the order but maybe he changed his mind after talking with Russ. Maybe he knew the last act could only be done by turning into a daemon prince who knows.
When Russ set out from Terra, yes I agree he fully intended to arrest Magnus. After he spoke to Horus on the way though he fully intended not to... Valdor even argued with him saying it wasn't what the emperor wanted. It's not like Russ showed up to Prospero and then made the hard descision not to take Magnus alive, Russ made that decision well before he got there. By the time Russ got to Prospero he was locked and loaded and started shooting immediately.
Proof:
Spoiler:
"At Beta-Garmon, Russ was met not only by those warriors of his own Legion who had heeded his call, namely the battle-scarred warriors of the Third, Ninth and Eleventh Great Companies, but also by a detachment of warriors in the sea-green armour of the newly anointed Sons of Horus. At the behest of the Warmaster himself these warriors were pledged to aid the Wolf King in his dire task- their leader, Overseer Boros Kurn, bore personal communications from Horus to his brother, Leman Russ. The exact contents of these missives have never been made available to scholars of the later Imperium, indeed it is highly likely that no one other than Leman Russ and Horus themselves will ever know what arguments were brought to bear. But what is known now by the dire events which were to transpire on Prospero is that after viewing the contents of the message and hearing the words of his brother, Leman Russ let it be known among his sons that he no longer intended simply to capture Magnus, but instead to see him slain.
Before leaving Beta-Garmon, a quantity of phosphex equal to that consumed commonly by a full system-wide life purge campaign was transferred to the Space Wolves ships, along with a variety of Exterminatus grade capital ship munitions, including several bio-alchemical warheads of a classification previously deemed too dangerous to be used within the borders of the Imperium. These and other acquisitions speak of the Wolf King's new intentions for Magnus and the people of Prospero."
What I want to know is why the Emperor was so forgiving afterward, especially when he knew Russ didn't do what he ordered. I highly suspect it was because the wolves were needed for the upcoming Horus Heresy and the Emperor couldn't afford to alienate them, or Russ by extension.
It's also perfectly possible Russ had a change of heart on the way to Prospero. Otherwise he wouldn't have made his lame attempt at diplomacy or not used all that phosphex and forbidden weaponry.
tremere47-fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate, leads to triple riptide spam
2018/09/06 23:03:48
Subject: Persuasive argument - Can you defend the Space Wolves for the Prospero incident?
pm713 wrote: It's also perfectly possible Russ had a change of heart on the way to Prospero. Otherwise he wouldn't have made his lame attempt at diplomacy or not used all that phosphex and forbidden weaponry.
I was under the Impression that he did use that weaponry to wipe the planet, just not in the areas that the wolves were fighting.
2018/09/06 23:26:31
Subject: Persuasive argument - Can you defend the Space Wolves for the Prospero incident?
pm713 wrote: It's also perfectly possible Russ had a change of heart on the way to Prospero. Otherwise he wouldn't have made his lame attempt at diplomacy or not used all that phosphex and forbidden weaponry.
I was under the Impression that he did use that weaponry to wipe the planet, just not in the areas that the wolves were fighting.
He definitely bombarded Prospero but my understanding was it was with fairly standard weaponry. The only significant difference was the amount of them firing.
It might be GW overselling things but it sounds like if they'd used the forbidden weapons and such then there wouldn't be a Prospero left. But even in 40k it's still there.
tremere47-fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate, leads to triple riptide spam
2018/09/06 23:28:16
Subject: Persuasive argument - Can you defend the Space Wolves for the Prospero incident?
Delvarus Centurion wrote: But you arguing that is actually you agreeing that Russ did nothing wrong. Russ intended to Arrest him and then Horus told him to kill him and added information that convinced him.
Sure, Horus tricked Russ or convinced him into attacking Magnus, and I don't deny that.
My point was that why is it ok for Russ to get a pass when he gets tricked into serving chaos, but not anyone else? I mean come on, if it were anyone else but Russ who led the attack on Prospero they'd be declared excommunicate traitoris before they could even blink, especially since it went in defiance of a direct order from the Emperor himself. Exterminating an Imperial world (even in open rebellion, which Prospero certainly was not) was also something that previous Primarchs (Curze and Perturabo) had gotten into massive trouble over in the past.
And why was the emperor so forgiving to Russ afterward, when Russ showed up empty handed? I cannot help but think that the Emperor knew that the feud between Magnus and Russ was too great, and that it was better to have the wolves on the loyalist side during the heresy then have both the wolves AND the 1k sons be traitors. Magnus was fethed either way, so condoning Russ' actions post-facto was the Emperor's way of salvaging what he could from the situation.
"I mean come on, if it were anyone else but Russ who led the attack on Prospero they'd be declared excommunicate traitoris before they could even blink, especially since it went in defiance of a direct order from the Emperor himself." complete speculation and you are being dishonest saying Russ disobayed the Emperor, he didn't in any way shape or form he was given new orders. Why would any legion rebuke the legion killing Magnus when the Emperor condoned the killing of Magnus.
"Then maybe it is time to consider doing what the Emperor suggested,’ Sanguinius said.Horus shook his head emphatically. ‘I refused that on Ullanor, honour though it was. I’ll not contemplate it again.’‘Things change. You are Warmaster now. All the Legions As-tartes must recognise the pre-eminence of the XVI Legion. Per-haps some need to be reminded.’Horus snorted. ‘I don’t see Russ trying to clean up his berserk horde and rebrand them to court respect.’‘Leman Russ is not Warmaster,’ said Sanguinius. ‘Your title changed, brother, at the Emperor’s command, so that all the rest of us would be in no mistake as to the power you wield and the trust the Emperor placed in you. Perhaps the same thing must happen to your Legion."
"‘At Ullanor,’ the first captain answered, ‘the beloved Emperor advised our commander to rename the XVI Legion, so there might be no mistake as to the power of our authority.’‘What name did he wish us to take?’ Loken asked.‘The Sons of Horus,’ Abaddon replied"
"That is what you must master. One day, you must command my armies, my instruments of war, as if they were an extension of your own person. Man and horse, as one, galloping the heavens, submitting to no foe. At Ullanor, he gave me this."
"Cassar gave him a withering glare, and said, 'Enough. The War Council will be done soon, and I'll not have it said that the Legio
Mortis wasn't ready to do the Emperor's bidding.'
'You mean Horus's bidding,' corrected Jonah.
'We have been over this before, my friend,' said Cassar. 'Horus's authority comes from the Emperor. We forget that at our peril.'
'That's as maybe, but it's been many a dark and bloody day since we've fought with the Emperor beside us, hasn't it? But hasn't Horus
always been there for us on every battlefield?"
"'No,' said Horus. 'I was not. I was simply the one who most embodied the Emperor's need at that time. You see, for the first three
decades of the Great Crusade I fought alongside the Emperor, and I alone felt the full weight of his ambition to rale the galaxy. He
passed that vision to me and I carried it with me in my heart as we forged our path across the stars. It was a grand adventure we were
on, system after system reunited with the Master of Mankind. You cannot imagine what it was like to live in such times, Miss Vivar.'
'It sounds magnificent."
To say Russ 'disobeyed Horus is seriously dishonest. You are ignoring that Horus had full authority when it came to the crusade. If Horus didn't give new orders then you could call that disobeying. I mean He changed his mind about taking Magnus prisoner, so the new orders had new information so obviously he'd follow the new orders.
pm713 wrote: It's also perfectly possible Russ had a change of heart on the way to Prospero. Otherwise he wouldn't have made his lame attempt at diplomacy or not used all that phosphex and forbidden weaponry.
I was under the Impression that he did use that weaponry to wipe the planet, just not in the areas that the wolves were fighting.
He only bombarded and fought in Tizca. So no he didn't destroy the planet or use virus bombs as there were some thousand sons and Wolves left on Prospero. And the Wolves went back to Prospero to save the 13th.
This message was edited 6 times. Last update was at 2018/09/06 23:34:27
2018/09/06 23:43:24
Subject: Persuasive argument - Can you defend the Space Wolves for the Prospero incident?
Delvarus Centurion wrote: He only bombarded and fought in Tizca. So no he didn't destroy the planet or use virus bombs as there were some thousand sons and Wolves left on Prospero. And the Wolves went back to Prospero to save the 13th.
This is incorrect...
Proof:
Spoiler:
Taking up orbit themselves, the Space Wolves' vessels commenced saturation orbital strikes upon the entire planet. Magma Bombs, directed energy-weapons, mass-drivers and even ballistic cannons were unleashed upon the surface of Prospero, in an assault that literally changed the surface of the world forever: mountains were levelled, valleys filled with their rubble; the seas were boiled away, flashed into steam; the very bedrock of Prospero was pounded and heated into new shapes, like metal upon the anvil; boiling hot winds swept across the world, bringing with them the smell of heated metals and oils.
This bombardment was so sudden and so strong that moments after it began, only one population centre still survived on Prospero: a standing unit of Thousand Sons from the Raptora Cult kept a telekinetic shield generated over the city of Tizca. This shield, as hard and impenetrable as those generating it could mentally conceive, proved completely proof against the fearsome orbital bombardment directed at Tizca, even though sympathetic damage to the kine-shield killed several members of the cult maintaining the shield.
He definitely bombarded Prospero but my understanding was it was with fairly standard weaponry. The only significant difference was the amount of them firing.
It might be GW overselling things but it sounds like if they'd used the forbidden weapons and such then there wouldn't be a Prospero left. But even in 40k it's still there.
See my quote above.
Delvarus Centurion wrote: ...complete speculation and you are being dishonest saying Russ disobayed the Emperor, he didn't in any way shape or form he was given new orders. Why would any legion rebuke the legion killing Magnus when the Emperor condoned the killing of Magnus.
It is not complete speculation to say that people in the 30K and 40K universe who unwttingly aid chaos are often treated the same as willing traitors. Magnus is a prime example. The Space Marines who fought against the Imperium under orders from the Astral Claws during the badab war where harshly punished despite having no way of knowing their orders were traitorous. Only Russ seems to get special treatment in this regard.
Also, the Emperor condoned the attack on Prospero after the fact, not before. In my mind it was a move motivated by the political reality of the Horus Heresy rather than the Emperor really changing his mind about wanting Magnus arrested, but I fully admit that is speculation. I see no reason why the Emperor would order Magnus arrested, and then when Russ comes back saying "I burned his world and tried to kill him instead of arresting him" the emperor says "ok that's perfectly fine".
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/09/06 23:52:39
2018/09/06 23:53:43
Subject: Persuasive argument - Can you defend the Space Wolves for the Prospero incident?
Delvarus Centurion wrote: He only bombarded and fought in Tizca. So no he didn't destroy the planet or use virus bombs as there were some thousand sons and Wolves left on Prospero. And the Wolves went back to Prospero to save the 13th.
This is incorrect...
Proof:
Spoiler:
Taking up orbit themselves, the Space Wolves' vessels commenced saturation orbital strikes upon the entire planet. Magma Bombs, directed energy-weapons, mass-drivers and even ballistic cannons were unleashed upon the surface of Prospero, in an assault that literally changed the surface of the world forever: mountains were levelled, valleys filled with their rubble; the seas were boiled away, flashed into steam; the very bedrock of Prospero was pounded and heated into new shapes, like metal upon the anvil; boiling hot winds swept across the world, bringing with them the smell of heated metals and oils.
This bombardment was so sudden and so strong that moments after it began, only one population centre still survived on Prospero: a standing unit of Thousand Sons from the Raptora Cult kept a telekinetic shield generated over the city of Tizca. This shield, as hard and impenetrable as those generating it could mentally conceive, proved completely proof against the fearsome orbital bombardment directed at Tizca, even though sympathetic damage to the kine-shield killed several members of the cult maintaining the shield.
He definitely bombarded Prospero but my understanding was it was with fairly standard weaponry. The only significant difference was the amount of them firing.
It might be GW overselling things but it sounds like if they'd used the forbidden weapons and such then there wouldn't be a Prospero left. But even in 40k it's still there.
See my quote above.
Delvarus Centurion wrote: ...complete speculation and you are being dishonest saying Russ disobayed the Emperor, he didn't in any way shape or form he was given new orders. Why would any legion rebuke the legion killing Magnus when the Emperor condoned the killing of Magnus.
It is not complete speculation to say that people in the 30K and 40K universe who unwttingly aid chaos are often treated the same as willing traitors. Magnus is a prime example. The Space Marines who fought against the Imperium under orders from the Astral Claws during the badab war where harshly punished despite having no way of knowing their orders were traitorous. Only Russ seems to get special treatment in this regard.
Also, the Emperor condoned the killing of Magnus after the fact, not before. In my mind it was a move motivated by the political reality of the Horus Heresy rather than the Emperor really changing his mind about wanting Magnus arrested, but I fully admit that is speculation. I see no reason why the Emperor would order Magnus arrested, and then when Russ comes back saying "I burned his world and tried to kill him instead of arresting him" the emperor says "ok that's perfectly fine".
Still complete speculation.
Doesn't matter if it was after the fact, he wouldn't rebuke Russ after the fact if he condoned it is the point. Well Russ never met the Emperor when he came back, he met with Magnus. But it was obviously perfectly fine if he condoned it. I mean you are being so biased, the emperor condoned it and you won't accept that because you are obviously biased against Russ.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/09/06 23:55:16
2018/09/07 00:04:20
Subject: Persuasive argument - Can you defend the Space Wolves for the Prospero incident?
Delvarus Centurion wrote: But it was obviously perfectly fine if he condoned it. I mean you are being so biased, the emperor condoned it and you won't accept that because you are obviously biased against Russ.
From the Imperium's point of view yes it's perfectly fine and Russ was absolved of responsibility. But the point I am trying to make is "WHY?" I am saying that I think that Russ got off the hook for something that he shouldn't have done, something that could have and DID get people into trouble, even other Primarchs.
My personal speculation was simply that the Emperor didn't want to alienate Russ, especially with the outbreak of the Horus Heresy, the Emperor needed every legion possible. I could very well be wrong, but if you disagree with me I'd like to hear why instead of claiming that I am biased.
2018/09/07 00:10:45
Subject: Persuasive argument - Can you defend the Space Wolves for the Prospero incident?
Delvarus Centurion wrote: But it was obviously perfectly fine if he condoned it. I mean you are being so biased, the emperor condoned it and you won't accept that because you are obviously biased against Russ.
From the Imperium's point of view yes it's perfectly fine and Russ was absolved of responsibility. But the point I am trying to make is "WHY?" I am saying that I think that Russ got off the hook for something that he shouldn't have done, something that could have and DID get people into trouble, even other Primarchs.
My personal speculation was simply that the Emperor didn't want to alienate Russ, especially with the outbreak of the Horus Heresy, the Emperor needed every legion possible. I could very well be wrong, but if you disagree with me I'd like to hear why instead of claiming that I am biased.
You aren't saying why, otherwise you wouldn't have said 'if any other legion had done that they'd be censured' if you weren't being biased you'd simply say 'Why did the Emperor not censure him.' Again the Emperor told Malcador that he condoned his actions not Russ so he isn't trying to not alienate him. Whats to alienate anyway, he could have shown his disapproval without censuring him, I mean this is the person that humiliated Lorgar in incredible fashion and the Emperor said while the Heresy was happening that Russ would never turn traitor, he wasn't afraid of that, I don't think he treats the Primarchs with kid gloves.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/09/07 00:12:04
2018/09/07 00:12:39
Subject: Persuasive argument - Can you defend the Space Wolves for the Prospero incident?
Delvarus Centurion wrote: But it was obviously perfectly fine if he condoned it. I mean you are being so biased, the emperor condoned it and you won't accept that because you are obviously biased against Russ.
From the Imperium's point of view yes it's perfectly fine and Russ was absolved of responsibility. But the point I am trying to make is "WHY?" I am saying that I think that Russ got off the hook for something that he shouldn't have done, something that could have and DID get people into trouble, even other Primarchs.
My personal speculation was simply that the Emperor didn't want to alienate Russ, especially with the outbreak of the Horus Heresy, the Emperor needed every legion possible. I could very well be wrong, but if you disagree with me I'd like to hear why instead of claiming that I am biased.
Also the emperor was basicly stuck in the dungeon at the time. he may have intended to discuss the matter with Russ but obviously preventing deamons from eating earth took precidance
Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two
2018/09/07 00:15:42
Subject: Persuasive argument - Can you defend the Space Wolves for the Prospero incident?
Delvarus Centurion wrote: But it was obviously perfectly fine if he condoned it. I mean you are being so biased, the emperor condoned it and you won't accept that because you are obviously biased against Russ.
From the Imperium's point of view yes it's perfectly fine and Russ was absolved of responsibility. But the point I am trying to make is "WHY?" I am saying that I think that Russ got off the hook for something that he shouldn't have done, something that could have and DID get people into trouble, even other Primarchs.
My personal speculation was simply that the Emperor didn't want to alienate Russ, especially with the outbreak of the Horus Heresy, the Emperor needed every legion possible. I could very well be wrong, but if you disagree with me I'd like to hear why instead of claiming that I am biased.
Also the emperor was basicly stuck in the dungeon at the time. he may have intended to discuss the matter with Russ but obviously preventing deamons from eating earth took precidance
Exactly the only people he talked to were Malcador and Ra, and Corax once.
2018/09/07 00:32:34
Subject: Persuasive argument - Can you defend the Space Wolves for the Prospero incident?
BrianDavion wrote: Also the emperor was basicly stuck in the dungeon at the time. he may have intended to discuss the matter with Russ but obviously preventing deamons from eating earth took precidance
Sure, but that still means Russ got off the hook because of the political situation.
Delvarus Centurion wrote: You aren't saying why, otherwise you wouldn't have said 'if any other legion had done that they'd be censured' if you weren't being biased you'd simply say 'Why did the Emperor not censure him.' Again the Emperor told Malcador that he condoned his actions not Russ so he isn't trying to not alienate him. Whats to alienate anyway, he could have shown his disapproval without censuring him, I mean this is the person that humiliated Lorgar in incredible fashion and the Emperor said while the Heresy was happening that Russ would never turn traitor, he wasn't afraid of that, I don't think he treats the Primarchs with kid gloves.
I still maintain that censuring Russ for Prospero, even not to his face would have been very alienating... But, I would like to hear your theory then, why Russ was not censured for Prospero?
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/09/07 00:40:17
2018/09/07 00:37:50
Subject: Persuasive argument - Can you defend the Space Wolves for the Prospero incident?
BrianDavion wrote: Also the emperor was basicly stuck in the dungeon at the time. he may have intended to discuss the matter with Russ but obviously preventing deamons from eating earth took precidance
Sure, but that still means Russ got off the hook because of the political situation.
Delvarus Centurion wrote: You aren't saying why, otherwise you wouldn't have said 'if any other legion had done that they'd be censured' if you weren't being biased you'd simply say 'Why did the Emperor not censure him.' Again the Emperor told Malcador that he condoned his actions not Russ so he isn't trying to not alienate him. Whats to alienate anyway, he could have shown his disapproval without censuring him, I mean this is the person that humiliated Lorgar in incredible fashion and the Emperor said while the Heresy was happening that Russ would never turn traitor, he wasn't afraid of that, I don't think he treats the Primarchs with kid gloves.
I would like to hear your theory then, why Russ was not censured for Prospero?
Because the Emperor condoned his actions. And the Emperor knew he was following orders.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/09/07 00:38:24
2018/09/07 00:43:28
Subject: Persuasive argument - Can you defend the Space Wolves for the Prospero incident?
Delvarus Centurion wrote: Because the Emperor condoned his actions. And the Emperor knew he was following orders.
If the Emperor truly wanted Prospero destroyed, then why did he not order it? He has done it before, (possibly to two legions), why then did he order Magnus arrested and not killed, and made it SPECIFIC that he wanted Magnus arrested?
Also, I have already pointed out that "just following orders" is not a valid excuse for aiding chaos in 30k or 40k, and have given multiple examples in the lore where other people were punished harshly for unwittingly aiding chaos. Magnus being the prime example.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/09/07 00:44:00
2018/09/07 01:01:02
Subject: Persuasive argument - Can you defend the Space Wolves for the Prospero incident?
Delvarus Centurion wrote: Because the Emperor condoned his actions. And the Emperor knew he was following orders.
If the Emperor truly wanted Prospero destroyed, then why did he not order it? He has done it before, (possibly to two legions), why then did he order Magnus arrested and not killed, and made it SPECIFIC that he wanted Magnus arrested?
Also, I have already pointed out that "just following orders" is not a valid excuse for aiding chaos in 30k or 40k, and have given multiple examples in the lore where other people were punished harshly for unwittingly aiding chaos. Magnus being the prime example.
He didn't, after the fact he condoned it. Just following orders is a valid excuse you think its not because you want Russ to be wrong in his decision, he wasn't told to aid chaos, he didn't know he was aiding them. This is absurd to say Russ followed chaos, I mean I'll say it again you are so biased. Magnus knew on some level he was following chaos, the daemon on Aghoru told him he sold his soul and yet he still used sorcery, even after the Emperor told him not to and he did. Magnus was not called into censure for following chaos though, he was called into censure for using sorcery when told not to. Magnus got what he deserved, he turned to chaos, that you can sympathise with him and not Russ is ridiculous for merely following orders. Look what Magnus has done to the Ipmerium now and yet all you care about is Russ following orders and trying to say he meant for what happened.
This message was edited 8 times. Last update was at 2018/09/07 01:09:36
2018/09/07 05:07:16
Subject: Persuasive argument - Can you defend the Space Wolves for the Prospero incident?
Delvarus Centurion wrote: He didn't, after the fact he condoned it. Just following orders is a valid excuse you think its not because you want Russ to be wrong in his decision, he wasn't told to aid chaos, he didn't know he was aiding them. This is absurd to say Russ followed chaos, I mean I'll say it again you are so biased. Magnus knew on some level he was following chaos, the daemon on Aghoru told him he sold his soul and yet he still used sorcery, even after the Emperor told him not to and he did. Magnus was not called into censure for following chaos though, he was called into censure for using sorcery when told not to. Magnus got what he deserved, he turned to chaos, that you can sympathise with him and not Russ is ridiculous for merely following orders. Look what Magnus has done to the Ipmerium now and yet all you care about is Russ following orders and trying to say he meant for what happened.
Setting aside your babbling about me being biased, and your irrelevant remarks about Magnus "deserving it" you haven't answered my question.
If as you say, the Emperor really wanted Prospero destroyed and Magnus killed, why did he not order Russ to do that?
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/09/07 06:14:16
2018/09/07 06:36:36
Subject: Re:Persuasive argument - Can you defend the Space Wolves for the Prospero incident?
Everything hinges on how Magnus reacted to the approach of Leman Russ. If the Cyclops truly was what many of wish he was, he would have turned himself and his Legion over to the Wolf King. Propsero would have been spared annihilation. The splendor of Tizca would not be just a tragic memory.
Magnus was indeed manipulated by Chaos but that was not the immediate conflict between the VIth and XVth Legions. The shadow of the Ruinous Powers loomed in the background but the foreground of this clash was the issue of Magnus's stark disobenience. In the first part, Magnus had in peril of utter destruction sworn before the face of the Emperor to honor the Edict of Nikaea. Please let's not kid ourselves about what fate awaited Magnus on Terra. There would be no trial in the sense that Magnus could be found innocent and absolved or even pardoned. The Cyclops had already transgressed the most dire command of the Emperor and the consequence had already been spelled out between them, face to face, from the Master of Mankind's own lips. In the second part, the disobedience of Magnus in not surrendering to the duly appointed enforcer of his fate was not a remote, unforseen possibility. The Emperor did not dispatch an emissary to invite Magnus to judgment but rather an executioner to demand his submission on pain of death. It was always possible that Magnus would die before submitting. Of course the Emperor did not send Leman Russ without knowing as much.
Therefore the Emperor would not balk at the actual outcome. The issue of Horus's intervening order is secondary, but in any case would not reflect poorly on Russ. Treachery is more readily perceived by the treacherous than the faithful.
Delvarus Centurion wrote: He only bombarded and fought in Tizca. So no he didn't destroy the planet or use virus bombs as there were some thousand sons and Wolves left on Prospero. And the Wolves went back to Prospero to save the 13th.
This is incorrect...
Proof:
Spoiler:
Taking up orbit themselves, the Space Wolves' vessels commenced saturation orbital strikes upon the entire planet. Magma Bombs, directed energy-weapons, mass-drivers and even ballistic cannons were unleashed upon the surface of Prospero, in an assault that literally changed the surface of the world forever: mountains were levelled, valleys filled with their rubble; the seas were boiled away, flashed into steam; the very bedrock of Prospero was pounded and heated into new shapes, like metal upon the anvil; boiling hot winds swept across the world, bringing with them the smell of heated metals and oils.
This bombardment was so sudden and so strong that moments after it began, only one population centre still survived on Prospero: a standing unit of Thousand Sons from the Raptora Cult kept a telekinetic shield generated over the city of Tizca. This shield, as hard and impenetrable as those generating it could mentally conceive, proved completely proof against the fearsome orbital bombardment directed at Tizca, even though sympathetic damage to the kine-shield killed several members of the cult maintaining the shield.
He definitely bombarded Prospero but my understanding was it was with fairly standard weaponry. The only significant difference was the amount of them firing.
It might be GW overselling things but it sounds like if they'd used the forbidden weapons and such then there wouldn't be a Prospero left. But even in 40k it's still there.
See my quote above.
Delvarus Centurion wrote: ...complete speculation and you are being dishonest saying Russ disobayed the Emperor, he didn't in any way shape or form he was given new orders. Why would any legion rebuke the legion killing Magnus when the Emperor condoned the killing of Magnus.
It is not complete speculation to say that people in the 30K and 40K universe who unwttingly aid chaos are often treated the same as willing traitors. Magnus is a prime example. The Space Marines who fought against the Imperium under orders from the Astral Claws during the badab war where harshly punished despite having no way of knowing their orders were traitorous. Only Russ seems to get special treatment in this regard.
Also, the Emperor condoned the attack on Prospero after the fact, not before. In my mind it was a move motivated by the political reality of the Horus Heresy rather than the Emperor really changing his mind about wanting Magnus arrested, but I fully admit that is speculation. I see no reason why the Emperor would order Magnus arrested, and then when Russ comes back saying "I burned his world and tried to kill him instead of arresting him" the emperor says "ok that's perfectly fine".
What am I supposed to see in that quote? None of that is a special weapon. Nothing suggests that was special beyond the amount of weapons used and the time they were used for.
tremere47-fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate, leads to triple riptide spam
2018/09/07 16:32:48
Subject: Persuasive argument - Can you defend the Space Wolves for the Prospero incident?
Delvarus Centurion wrote: He didn't, after the fact he condoned it. Just following orders is a valid excuse you think its not because you want Russ to be wrong in his decision, he wasn't told to aid chaos, he didn't know he was aiding them. This is absurd to say Russ followed chaos, I mean I'll say it again you are so biased. Magnus knew on some level he was following chaos, the daemon on Aghoru told him he sold his soul and yet he still used sorcery, even after the Emperor told him not to and he did. Magnus was not called into censure for following chaos though, he was called into censure for using sorcery when told not to. Magnus got what he deserved, he turned to chaos, that you can sympathise with him and not Russ is ridiculous for merely following orders. Look what Magnus has done to the Ipmerium now and yet all you care about is Russ following orders and trying to say he meant for what happened.
Setting aside your babbling about me being biased, and your irrelevant remarks about Magnus "deserving it" you haven't answered my question.
If as you say, the Emperor really wanted Prospero destroyed and Magnus killed, why did he not order Russ to do that?
I actually did answer your question. He didn't order it because after the fact he condoned it. So why would he order it before... Your question makes no sense, he would only order the burning of Prospero if he knew what was going to happen, he did know what happened after Russ did what he did, that's why he condoned it 'then'.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/09/07 16:36:00
