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w1zard wrote:


My point was that why is it ok for Russ to get a pass when he gets tricked into serving chaos, but not anyone else?

Because he wasn't tricked - he followed the chain of command exactly as he was supposed to?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

w1zard wrote:
and have given multiple examples in the lore where other people were punished harshly for unwittingly aiding chaos. Magnus being the prime example.

Magnus was punished first and foremost for disobeying the emperor. Regardless of being tricked by chaos he knowingly disobeyed a crystal clear edict from the emperor.

So let me get this straight...

The emperor totally meant for Prospero to be destroyed and Magnus to be killed, so instead of ordering it (like he presumably did twice before) he instead orders Russ to arrest Magnus, knowing that Magnus would resist and get himself killed... He did this convoluted gak for seemingly no reason. The fact that Horus intervened and convinced Russ to do something that would benefit chaos is completely irrelevant and probably what the Emperor wanted anyway...

This is your argument? You can't be serious...

 Scott-S6 wrote:
Because he wasn't tricked - he followed the chain of command exactly as he was supposed to?

It doesn't matter. I have also given examples where the people involved were doing exactly that and still harshly "dealt with" afterwards if what they did hurt the Imperium.

OK we have two issues here:

(1) arrest of Magnus

Magnus was "WANTED" for a capital offense. Magnus refused to come quietly. Magnus used deadly force to resist. Deafly force would naturally be required to respond. This was always one (LIKELY) way his arrest could have gone, independently of Horus's intervening orders. It's for that reason that the Emperor explictly dispatched his Anti-Primarch Primarch to do this job.

I'm not arguing that the Emperor ordered Russ to arrest Magnus in order that Russ would kill Magnus. I'm saying that the warrant was necessarily made out to bring him in dead or alive. Escape was not something Russ could allow, so the ball was naturally in Magnus's court: if Magnus was truly loyal then he would have submitted to the authority of the Emperor - if not, Russ would force Magnus submit, up to and including killing him if Russ had to.

(2) destruction of Prospero

You're going to have to first make a case as to why the Emperor would even care about the destruction of Propsero before any of us need to explain why he wouldn't.

w1zard wrote:
So let me get this straight...

The emperor totally meant for Prospero to be destroyed and Magnus to be killed, so instead of ordering it (like he presumably did twice before) he instead orders Russ to arrest Magnus, knowing that Magnus would resist and get himself killed... He did this convoluted gak for seemingly no reason. The fact that Horus intervened and convinced Russ to do something that would benefit chaos is completely irrelevant and probably what the Emperor wanted anyway...

This is your argument? You can't be serious...

 Scott-S6 wrote:
Because he wasn't tricked - he followed the chain of command exactly as he was supposed to?

It doesn't matter. I have also given examples where the people involved were doing exactly that and still harshly "dealt with" afterwards.

No, that isn't my argument, I don't know what is so hard to understand. The Emperor wanted Magnus taken alive, then Russ got new orders from Horus to kill him, then Russ kills him. The Emperor then condoned what Russ did, obviously from reading reports made by Russ about what happened on Prospero. I don't know why you are confused. The lore states this, the Emperor wanted him taken alive, after it all happened he then condoned Russ' actions, he changed his mind, its fact. You aren't making any sense.

Again why would Russ be punished if the Emperor condoned what he did.

Even considering that the Emperor's preferred scenario was Russ bringing Magnus to Terra alive, there was always the high probability that Magnus would die resisting. In other words, the Emperor had to be comfortable with the possible outcome of Magnus's death in order to send Russ in the first place.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

No, that isn't my argument, I don't know what is so hard to understand. The Emperor wanted Magnus taken alive, then Russ got new orders from Horus to kill him, then Russ kills him. The Emperor then condoned what Russ did, obviously from reading reports made by Russ about what happened on Prospero.

But, WHY?

"Oh hey Emps, yeah I didn't arrest Magnus like you asked me to, instead I carpet bombed his world, killed every innocent person there and tried to kill him. Why? Because Horus told me to of course. Oh, Horus is leading a rebellion against you? Uh... what I did is totally justified I swear, and you can take my word for it that I did what needed to be done."

No.

I think it is far more likely that the Emperor completely intended Magnus to be arrested and brought back to Terra to sit on the golden throne. Russ overstepped his directive and acted on a very old vendetta with the sanction of Horus. The Emperor realized this and thought to himself that Magnus was probably a lost cause anyway and there was no use crying over spilled milk, and then post-facto pardoned Russ because it was important Russ be on his side for the coming Heresy and not having to deal with being censured. Either that or the Emperor was too busy with the political situation or sitting on the Golden Throne to deal with it. That is the simplest and most plausible explanation in my mind.

 Manchu wrote:

I'm not arguing that the Emperor ordered Russ to arrest Magnus in order that Russ would kill Magnus. I'm saying that the warrant was necessarily made out to bring him in dead or alive. Escape was not something Russ could allow, so the ball was naturally in Magnus's court: if Magnus was truly loyal then he would have submitted to the authority of the Emperor - if not, Russ would force Magnus submit, up to and including killing him if Russ had to.

No the warrant was to SPECIFICALLY bring him alive.

Proof:

Nowhere in there does it say. "Kill him if he resists" It says bring him alive by any means necessary. Russ very specifically and very purposely did not do that, nor attempted to.

 Manchu wrote:
You're going to have to first make a case as to why the Emperor would even care about the destruction of Propsero before any of us need to explain why he wouldn't.

Because it was a planet full of loyal Imperial citizens. I already brought up the examples of Curze and Perturabo destroying their homeworlds and getting into massive trouble for it, and their homeworlds were in open rebellion which means they had more of an excuse than Russ did.

w1zard wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

No, that isn't my argument, I don't know what is so hard to understand. The Emperor wanted Magnus taken alive, then Russ got new orders from Horus to kill him, then Russ kills him. The Emperor then condoned what Russ did, obviously from reading reports made by Russ about what happened on Prospero.

But, WHY?

"Oh hey Emps, yeah I didn't arrest Magnus like you asked me to, instead I carpet bombed his world, killed every innocent person there and tried to kill him. Why? Because Horus told me to of course. Oh, Horus is leading a rebellion against you? Uh... what I did is totally justified I swear, and you can take my word for it that I did what needed to be done."

No.

I think it is far more likely that the Emperor completely intended Magnus to be arrested and brought back to Terra to sit on the golden throne. Russ overstepped his directive and acted on a very old vendetta with the sanction of Horus. The Emperor realized this and thought to himself that Magnus was probably a lost cause anyway and there was no use crying over spilled milk, and then post-facto pardoned Russ because it was important Russ be on his side for the coming Heresy and not having to deal with being censured. Either that or the Emperor was too busy with the political situation or sitting on the Golden Throne to deal with it. That is the simplest and most plausible explanation in my mind.

 Manchu wrote:

I'm not arguing that the Emperor ordered Russ to arrest Magnus in order that Russ would kill Magnus. I'm saying that the warrant was necessarily made out to bring him in dead or alive. Escape was not something Russ could allow, so the ball was naturally in Magnus's court: if Magnus was truly loyal then he would have submitted to the authority of the Emperor - if not, Russ would force Magnus submit, up to and including killing him if Russ had to.

No the warrant was to SPECIFICALLY bring him alive.

Proof:

Spoiler:

By the Word and the Will of the Master of Mankind, Imperatoris, Terra Regnum, It is hereby decreed that Magnus, Primarch of the XV" Legiones Astartes, be bought forth in censure and bound by law to stand before the Throne Imperial of Terra, there to answer for his actions and those of his gene-sons. To this end is Leman Russ, Primarch of the VI1" legiones Astartes, so charged upon the deliverance of his ·brother, by any and all means he may find needful, without limit in law, sanction or imposition of attainder, unto the limitless void and the last day. So it is written, so it shall be.

Nowhere in there does it say. "Kill him if he resists" It says bring him alive by any means necessary. Russ very specifically and very purposely did not do that, nor attempted to.

 Manchu wrote:
You're going to have to first make a case as to why the Emperor would even care about the destruction of Propsero before any of us need to explain why he wouldn't.

Because it was a planet full of loyal Imperial citizens. I already brought up the examples of Curze and Perturabo destroying their homeworlds and getting into massive trouble for it, and their homeworlds were in open rebellion which means they had more of an excuse than Russ did.

Why, because in Magnus' last act he turned to sorcery and chaos. The Emperor most likely knew he'd never stop using sorcery from that and decided that Russ did the right thing. Again Russ never had words with the Emperor about it. Russ did not overstep his directive, and he didn't act on his vendetta as already proven as he originally wanted to take Magnus alive. I'm not going to argue with you if you don't accept facts and continue to be dishonest, you have been shown that Russ was only following orders and that he wasn't acting on a vendetta, even in Nikaea he wanted him to have a very limited and weak punishment.. You are just biased and you aren't accepting facts there is no point arguing anymore.

Today you will learn about COERCIVE POWER.

COERCIVE POWER is when you make someone do what you want by threatening them with violence, up to and including killing them.

The problem with COERCIVE POWER is that if someone would rather die than do what you want them to then you end up killing them and still not getting what you want.

The Emperor, through Leman Russ, tried to assert COERCIVE POWER over Magnus. Because he was an arrogant traitor, Magnus was (initially) prepared to fight to the death rather than submit. Not being stupid, the Emperor would have understood and accepted this possible outcome before deciding to send Russ.

Being willing and authorized to kill Magnus is a necessary and essential component of Russ's mission, just as a matter of logic. It can in no way form the basis of any censure against Russ.

It seems like what you are really asking is more simple: why didn't the Emperor censure Russ for being tricked by Horus? That's, hopefully, self evident.

Regarding Propsero, I don't believe the Emperor cared about "loyal subjects" one way or the other. Even had Magnus submitted and gone quietly when Russ arrived, the probable outcome would be

(1) Magnus enthroned

(2) XVth Legion destroyed to the last man

(3) Prospero purged of any memory of Magnus and the XVth Legion, possibly up to Exterminatus

w1zard wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
Also the emperor was basicly stuck in the dungeon at the time. he may have intended to discuss the matter with Russ but obviously preventing deamons from eating earth took precidance

Sure, but that still means Russ got off the hook because of the political situation.

Daemons don't tend to do politics

Well, unless they're of the moustache-twirling Tzeentch variety, anyway.

 Manchu wrote:
Today you will learn about COERCIVE POWER.

COERCIVE POWER is when you make someone do what you want by threatening them with violence, up to and including killing them.

The problem with COERCIVE POWER is that if someone would rather die than do what you want them to then you end up killing them and still not getting what you want.

The Emperor, through Leman Russ, tried to assert COERCIVE POWER over Magnus. Because he was an arrogant traitor, Magnus was (initially) prepared to fight to the death rather than submit. Not being stupid, the Emperor would have understood and accepted this possible outcome before deciding to send Russ.

Being willing and authorized to kill Magnus is a necessary and essential component of Russ's mission, just as a matter of logic. It can in no way form the basis of any censure against Russ.

No.

What part of "take him alive by any means necessary" don't you understand? That didn't give Russ carte blanche to kill him if he resists, and your assertions that the Emperor intended for Russ to kill Magnus if he resisted are speculative at best.

All that is a moot point however, because of the fact that Magnus was never offered the chance to surrender. Russ came into the system guns blazing with no intention of taking Magnus back alive.

 Manchu wrote:
It seems like what you are really asking is more simple: why didn't the Emperor censure Russ for being tricked by Horus? That's, hopefully, self evident.

No.

There have been plenty of other Imperials throughout history that have followed orders in good faith and have had no reason to doubt them, and it turns out those orders were being given by corrupted superiors with the intention of serving chaos. These individuals were dealt with harshly, with no regard to their actual intentions. Why is Russ so special that he warrants such treatment?

 Manchu wrote:
Regarding Propsero, I don't believe the Emperor cared about "loyal subjects" one way or the other. Even had Magnus submitted and gone quietly when Russ arrived, the probable outcome would be

(1) Magnus enthroned

(2) XVth Legion destroyed to the last man

(3) Prospero purged of any memory of Magnus and the XVth Legion, possibly up to Exterminatus

Now THIS is speculation. The crux of your argument seems to be "well Magnus deserved it and it was probably going to happen anyway, so Russ really didn't do anything wrong". All of that is irrelevant.

The point I am trying to make, is that killing a man on death row is still considered murder. (So to speak)

 Dysartes wrote:
Daemons don't tend to do politics

Well, unless they're of the moustache-twirling Tzeentch variety, anyway.

What I mean by "political situation" is the realities of what is happening at the time regardless of whether or not they actually have to do with politics. But I get your point

First, let's deal with this alleged argument that it's fine that Russ killed Magnus because Magnus was a dead man walking anyhow. I totally agree that it's a bad argument. So let's just get past the mistaken notion that I'm making that argument.

Next, let's go over this point about coercive power and deadly force once more. Don't even think about Magnus and Russ, put them out of your mind for a moment. Just reflect on this simple narrative example. Imagine a police officer pursuing a suspect. The officer catches up with the suspect. The suspect opens fire on the officer. The officer returns fire, killing the suspect. The police officer is not guilty of murder. The death of dangerous fugitives is always a foreseeable possible outcome of pursuing them.

Likewise the death of Magnus would necessarily be a foresseable possible outcome of sending a giant military expedition, armed to the ever-loving teeth, to capture him. To be clear, this point is NOT meant to justify Russ attacking Prospero. All this establishes is that the Emperor necessarily must have known that it was reasonably possible that Magnus would die as a result of the Emperor sending Russ to capture Magnus.

Finally, as to the fate of Prospero had Magnus duly surrendered to Russ and been taken back to Terra. It is NOT speculation to assert that the Emperor would have destroyed Magnus - killing him or lobotomizing him and/or shackling him to the Golden Throne. And the XVth Legion would likewise be destroyed. This was made explicit by the Emperor himself at Nikaea:

If you treat with the Warp, Magnus, I shall visit destruction upon you. And your Legion's name will be struck from the Imperial records for all time.

The allusion there is obviously to the IInd and XIth Legions. It is speculative to suggest that as part of eliminating the XVth from history, Prospero would be purged or even simply annhiliated. But it is not unfounded or even improbable.

 Manchu wrote:
Next, let's go over this point about coercive power and deadly force once more. Don't even think about Magnus and Russ, put them out of your mind for a moment. Just reflect on this simple narrative example. Imagine a police officer pursuing a suspect. The officer catches up with the suspect. The suspect opens fire on the officer. The officer returns fire, killing the suspect. The police officer is not guilty of murder. The death of dangerous fugitives is always a foreseeable possible outcome of pursuing them.

Likewise the death of Magnus would necessarily be a foresseable possible outcome of sending a giant military expedition, armed to the ever-loving teeth, to capture him. To be clear, this point is NOT meant to justify Russ attacking Prospero. All this establishes is that the Emperor necessarily must have known that it was reasonably possible that Magnus would die as a result of the Emperor sending Russ to capture Magnus.

Your analogy is flawed.

Your hypothetical police officer was ordered by the police chief to apprehend the criminal alive by any means necessary.

Also, in order to be completely accurate... your hypothetical police officer showed up at the scene with his gun already drawn and no intention of following those orders after speaking to a dirty supervisor beforehand. (Again we don't know what Horus said to Russ)

 Manchu wrote:
It is speculative to suggest that as part of eliminating the XVth from history, Prospero would be purged or even simply annhiliated. But it is not unfounded or even improbable.

Even if that was to be Prospero's ultimate fate (and I still maintain that it is speculation to assume that it was), that was not Russ' prerogative to enact. The executioner in a prison isn't supposed to just start offing death row inmates willy nilly, even though that is ultimately his job. There are procedures and clear sequences of events that need to take place before something like that can be done and still have it considered "just". The emperor had not ordered it yet.

You're not reading carefully enough. The fact that the arrest of Magnus could have always entailed the death of Magnus is unrelated to what Russ thought his orders were by the time he arrived at Prospero.

There is no fluff anywhere, so far as I know, indicating that the Emperor personally approved or did not approve of each deployment of the exterminatus sanction.

To bring this back into focus, your question was: why didn't the Emperor censure Russ?

But you have not established why the question would even arise, other than censuring Russ for being tricked by Horus. The Emperor would be hard pressed to criticize Russ for being deceived by Horus, considering the Emperor was also apparently deceived.

 Manchu wrote:
You're not reading carefully enough. The fact that the arrest of Magnus could have always entailed the death of Magnus is unrelated to what Russ thought his orders were by the time he arrived at Prospero.

And you aren't understanding my point. The emperor ordered Russ to bring Magnus back to Terra, ALIVE. Assuming that the Emperor meant for Russ to kill Magnus if he resisted is pure speculation, and arguably not even good speculation as the orders specifically said ALIVE.

Again, we don't know what Horus said to Russ to get him to disobey the Emperor's directive, but disobey he did.

Continuing your police analogy... you can't justify killing a suspect who fought back, when you never gave them the chance to surrender in the first place and never intended to.

 Manchu wrote:
There is no fluff anywhere, so far as I know, indicating that the Emperor personally approved or did not approve of each deployment of the exterminatus sanction.

But there IS fluff that says that Primarchs aren't allowed to enact exterminatus sanction without permission from the emperor, at least on Imperial worlds. Curze was arrested for it, and Perturabo would have been had he not joined Horus in exchange for a pardon if Horus won.

What you have to understand is, it may not have been possible to bring Magnus back alive. Magnus and the XVth Legion are extremely dangerous. That's why the Emperor sent a literal army. This is the nature of coercive power: sometimes threats are eefective but the ultimate threat sometimes must be carried out.

Olympia did not suffer exterminatus. Curze was meant to be brought to heel for a whole pattern of psychotic behavior, including his destruction of Nostramo.

 Manchu wrote:
Olympia did not suffer exterminatus. Curze was meant to be brought to heel for a whole pattern of psychotic behavior, including his destruction of Nostramo.

Sure, but exterminatus is worse than what happened to Olympia an Perturabo was still going to get the Curze treatment for it, it was the entire plot point behind why Perturabo turned traitor.

You have to admit, just exterminatus-ing a loyal Imperial planet because they happen to be in your way is not something the Emperor would have accepted, even from Primarchs.

I can accept that Russ was manipulated or fooled by Horus into thinking that what he was doing had Imperial sanction. I can even accept that Magnus might have even been needed to killed, or maybe even deserved it. But the fact of the matter was that Magnus was never given a chance to surrender, and thus fighting back was his only option. You cannot then use his fighting back as a justification for trying to kill him in the first place. Not only that, but what Russ did to the people of Propsero was jumping the gun at BEST, or a warcrime that could have gotten him treated like Curze otherwise. The fact of the matter is that the Emperor condoned it afterward, and so we have to accept the fact that Russ didn't do anything wrong from an Imperial perspective. I am just curious as to why Russ seems to have gotten off so easily from a debacle that could (or should) have gotten him declared a traitor.

w1zard wrote:

 Manchu wrote:
Olympia did not suffer exterminatus. Curze was meant to be brought to heel for a whole pattern of psychotic behavior, including his destruction of Nostramo.

Sure, but exterminatus is worse than what happened to Olympia an Perturabo was still going to get the Curze treatment for it, it was the entire plot point behind why Perturabo turned traitor.

You have to admit, just exterminatus-ing a loyal Imperial planet because they happen to be in your way is not something the Emperor would have accepted, even from Primarchs.

I can accept that Russ was manipulated or fooled by Horus into thinking that what he was doing had Imperial sanction. I can even accept that Magnus might have even been needed to killed, or maybe even deserved it. But the fact of the matter was that Magnus was never given a chance to surrender, and thus fighting back was his only option. You cannot then use his fighting back as a justification for trying to kill him in the first place. Not only that, but what Russ did to the people of Propsero was jumping the gun at BEST, or a warcrime that could have gotten him treated like Curze otherwise. The fact of the matter is that the Emperor condoned it afterward, and so we have to accept the fact that Russ didn't do anything wrong from an Imperial perspective. I am just curious as to why Russ seems to have gotten off so easily from a debacle that could (or should) have gotten him declared a traitor.

Yes and no - Magnus however did know the fleet was coming, he could have surrended himself at any point but he did willfully set up the whole battle, making his own forces as weak as possible but not actually surrendering himself or them.

Even with the Custodes and Sisters of Silence I am not sure that Russ could have taken him alive and if the Legion and all its assets had been on full battle alert the battle could have gone either way.

Instead, Magnus made sure that his people and Legion were devestated. Even some of his own Legion balme him for what happened.

 Mr Morden wrote:
Yes and no - Magnus however did know the fleet was coming, he could have surrended himself at any point but he did willfully set up the whole battle, making his own forces as weak as possible but not actually surrendering himself or them.

Even with the Custodes and Sisters of Silence I am not sure that Russ could have taken him alive and if the Legion and all its assets had been on full battle alert the battle could have gone either way.

Instead, Magnus made sure that his people and Legion were devestated. Even some of his own Legion balme him for what happened.

Magnus felt (through the use of his psychic powers) that Russ was coming to kill him and not take him prisoner, instead of surrendering (which was impossible from his perspective, he was going to be killed by the Imperium one way or another) he did the next best thing by disabling the orbital defense grid and making sure that nobody knew the Space Wolf fleet was coming. I also highly doubt that trying to bust into Russ' head to psychically communicate with him, or to break the wards on Russ' flagship to appear and psychically communicate with him would have gone over well, especially after the webway incident. Russ was also not known as the greatest of listeners, and from Magnus' perspective wouldn't have stopped to listen anyway. There was also the pride thing, Magnus surrendering to his brother whom he considered the most ignorant and savage of his contemporaries... the idea galled him.

w1zard wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:
Yes and no - Magnus however did know the fleet was coming, he could have surrended himself at any point but he did willfully set up the whole battle, making his own forces as weak as possible but not actually surrendering himself or them.

Even with the Custodes and Sisters of Silence I am not sure that Russ could have taken him alive and if the Legion and all its assets had been on full battle alert the battle could have gone either way.

Instead, Magnus made sure that his people and Legion were devestated. Even some of his own Legion balme him for what happened.

Magnus felt (through the use of his psychic powers) that Russ was coming to kill him and not take him prisoner, instead of surrendering (which was impossible from his perspective, he was going to be killed by the Imperium one way or another) he did the next best thing by disabling the orbital defense grid and making sure that nobody knew the Space Wolf fleet was coming. I also highly doubt that trying to bust into Russ' head to psychically communicate with him, or to break the wards on Russ' flagship to appear and psychically communicate with him would have gone over well, especially after the webway incident. Russ was also not known as the greatest of listeners, and from Magnus' perspective wouldn't have stopped to listen anyway. There was also the pride thing, Magnus surrendering to his brother whom he considered the most ignorant and savage of his contemporaries... the idea galled him.

Have you read A thousands Sons - all this is covered.

No I think Magnus was looking to die - and his Legion and people with him - he killled Ulthizzar when he went to warn his brothers and then for a week he had .

... almost given in to his self-destructive yrges and turned his powers upon himself

As to comunicating with Russ and co and breaking the wards - he and Amon travelled and stood on the bridge of the Russ's own ship, the Hrafnkel flagship of the fleet and watched them as they approached!

He refuses to do anything to defend the planet but also does not surrender himself in that moment despite also saying he and the Legion should accept whatever punishment that the Emperor will dish out to prove their loyalty. He choses not to do anyting other than accept the attack

As the bombardment begins he says:

Now I know how you felt father......I am here. Do what you will.

Its clear as far as Magnus is concerned this is all rightful punishment by the Emperor! But wants someone to take his life and expunge his mistakes - granting him some form of salvation

Lastly he could have simply gone to meet them in a ship boradcasting his surrender.....

 Mr Morden wrote:
No I think Magnus was looking to die - and his Legion and people with him - he killled Ulthizzar when he went to warn his brothers and then for a week he had

Oh yes, definitely. But he didn't know that surrender was an option, nor that the emperor ordered his arrest not his death. All he saw was Russ coming to kill him. Even if he did know that surrender was an option he was most likely going to be put to death anyway so why bother?

 Mr Morden wrote:
As to comunicating with Russ and co and breaking the wards - he and Amon travelled and stood on the bridge of the Russ's own ship, the Hrafnkel flagship of the fleet and watched them as they approached!

I don't ever remember this happening in any of the depictions of the battle of Prospero. Can you please post a quote? I highly doubt that Russ would let Magnus aboard his flagship during the battle, only to allow him to leave and start the fight on the surface.

 Mr Morden wrote:
He refuses to do anything to defend the planet but also does not surrender himself in that moment despite also saying he and the Legion should accept whatever punishment that the Emperor will dish out to prove their loyalty. He choses not to do anyting other than accept the attack

Because he thought the attack WAS the punishment. It wasn't, it was Russ acting out a vendetta with the sanction of Horus. The emperor wanted Magnus arrested, not killed, Magnus did not know this. He only knew Russ was coming to kill him, not why.

 Mr Morden wrote:
Lastly he could have simply gone to meet them in a ship boradcasting his surrender.....

Remember, Russ was not there to arrest Magnus, he was there to kill him. There was no safe way for Magnus to surrender himself once the shooting started, which it did the second the Space Wolves entered the system.

If Magnus boarded a shuttle and flew toward the Space Wolf fleet broadcasting surrender on all channels, he would have been most likely shot out of the sky.

He and Amon travel to the flagship before it even arrives in system: A Thousand Sons p 462 - 465

The book describes them entering the Warp and reaching the fleet in transit in it

Leading them was a feral blade of a ship

long bit describing the fleet and the Hrafnkel

The two pass through all the defences -

the protectove shields that kept void-predators at bay no match for travellers of such power

They "stand" and lisen to the masters of the fleet discuss the destruction of Prospero, but do nothing alhough Magnus answers the question to his companion

The Council of Nikea were they right to name us warlocks

with

I fear they may have been but only now do i undertand that

He could have revelaed himself there and then.

He comfirms that he has "Blinded " the Thousand Sons and that both he and the Legion (and presumably the planet) should accept the punishment. The TS fleet is ordered to disperse some days later.

Note at this point he could have minimised casulties - even ecavuated part of the planet.

Even if he did know that surrender was an option he was most likely going to be put to death anyway so why bother?

Because his planet and Legion might be spared? or at lest the latter. He makes no attempt to do anyhing to save the planet and all his people only enacting a final safeguard to save Legionaries at the last moment when he finally turns to Chaos in his heart.

 Mr Morden wrote:

He could have revelaed himself there and then.

He comfirms that he has "Blinded " the Thousand Sons and that both he and the Legion (and presumably the planet) should accept the punishment. The TS fleet is ordered to disperse some days later.

Note at this point he could have minimised casulties - even ecavuated part of the planet.

I think you are reaching here. Magnus was using his powers to scry, and may not have been able to communicate. Any attempt to breach the minds of the Space Wolves or Russ may have been construed as an attack anyway.

Regardless, you said it yourself, Magnus initially wanted to accept the Emperor punishment. He just thought that the Emperor's punishment was his death and the death of his legion and world. When it really wasn't. What good would surrendering have done if Russ was under orders to kill him and his planet anyway? Evacuating or trying to hide his forces could have been construed as trying to escape his punishment. If the police are coming for you, it's best to let them come to you instead of rushing out to meet them or trying to hide.

Continuing with the police analogy from before... Police officer shows up who has no intention of arresting suspect and plans on shooting him on sight. *Police officer shoots suspect* Police officer says "He was resisting arrest, it was a justified shooting". My response: "You can't call it a justified shooting when you never gave him a chance to surrender in the first place". Your response: "Well he should have tried harder to evade the police or something, or surrendered himself to the police officer who had no intention of trying to take him alive, it's his fault".

w1zard wrote:

 Manchu wrote:
Olympia did not suffer exterminatus. Curze was meant to be brought to heel for a whole pattern of psychotic behavior, including his destruction of Nostramo.

Sure, but exterminatus is worse than what happened to Olympia an Perturabo was still going to get the Curze treatment for it, it was the entire plot point behind why Perturabo turned traitor.

You have to admit, just exterminatus-ing a loyal Imperial planet because they happen to be in your way is not something the Emperor would have accepted, even from Primarchs.

I can accept that Russ was manipulated or fooled by Horus into thinking that what he was doing had Imperial sanction. I can even accept that Magnus might have even been needed to killed, or maybe even deserved it. But the fact of the matter was that Magnus was never given a chance to surrender, and thus fighting back was his only option. You cannot then use his fighting back as a justification for trying to kill him in the first place. Not only that, but what Russ did to the people of Propsero was jumping the gun at BEST, or a warcrime that could have gotten him treated like Curze otherwise. The fact of the matter is that the Emperor condoned it afterward, and so we have to accept the fact that Russ didn't do anything wrong from an Imperial perspective. I am just curious as to why Russ seems to have gotten off so easily from a debacle that could (or should) have gotten him declared a traitor.

would what Russ did qualify as exterminatus? Extermintus is defined as whiping out all life on the world, did Russ do that or just crack all the cities?

BrianDavion wrote:
would what Russ did qualify as exterminatus? Extermintus is defined as whiping out all life on the world, did Russ do that or just crack all the cities?

Sounds like an exterminatus to me.

Russ set out from Terra to bring back Magnus alive, something that might not actually be possible and could result in Magnu's death (or Russ's death for that matter). By the time Russ reached Propsero, thanks to Horus's intervening orders, Russ understood his mission to be, to paraphrase the Emperor on Nikaea, visit destruction on Magnus and strike the XVth Legion from history. So the police officer metaphor only works when we're talking about the Emperor's initial orders. If we're talking about what Russ believed he was ordered to do after Horus contacted him, we're not dealing with anything like a police action. Rather, we're talking about an execution. Even so, Leman Russ wanted to give Magnus a chance to surrender. The only shred of insubordination Russ possibly showed was in hoping his brother was not as bad as Horus must have made him out to be.

 Manchu wrote:
Russ set out from Terra to bring back Magnus alive, something that might not actually be possible and could result in Magnu's death (or Russ's death for that matter). By the time Russ reached Propsero, thanks to Horus's intervening orders, Russ understood his mission to be, to paraphrase the Emperor on Nikaea, visit destruction on Magnus and strike the XVth Legion from history. So the police officer metaphor only works when we're talking about the Emperor's initial orders. If we're talking about what Russ believed he was ordered to do after Horus contacted him, we're not dealing with anything like a police action. Rather, we're talking about an execution. Even so, Leman Russ wanted to give Magnus a chance to surrender. The only shred of insubordination Russ possibly showed was in hoping his brother was not as bad as Horus must have made him out to be.

Again, we don't know what Horus said to Russ. It could be something as simple as "I know the emperor ordered you to do this, but I think Magnus is too dangerous to be kept alive, so if you go kill him like I know you want to, I'll back you up politically."

All we know is Horus spoke to Russ and then afterward, Russ disobeyed the emperor's directives. If you want to make that argument... Russ' culpability is tied to what was said between them. Since we do not know this... From the way I see it we can only judge Russ on his actions. I don't think Russ would intentionally betray the Emperor or the Imperium... but I do think that his prejudice toward Magnus allowed Horus to easily manipulate him, and caused him to be way too 'trigger happy' with the whole situation.

Exterminatus-ing Propsero was also needlessly brutal.

You won't find any reasonable person willing to take that silly bait.

 Manchu wrote:
You won't find any reasonable person willing to take that silly bait.

we know from Russ' own lips whatever Horus told him was eneugh to provoke a more agressive response, perhaps Horus simply told him the truth? that Magnus' actions directly threatened Terra, that he has been consorting with and making deals with denzines of the warp. The truth, the FULL truth about Magnus would be IMHO eneugh to damn him

It seemed to me that w1zard was suggesting treachery on tye part of Russ, which is fan fiction levels of absurd.

w1zard wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

He could have revelaed himself there and then.

He comfirms that he has "Blinded " the Thousand Sons and that both he and the Legion (and presumably the planet) should accept the punishment. The TS fleet is ordered to disperse some days later.

Note at this point he could have minimised casulties - even ecavuated part of the planet.

I think you are reaching here. Magnus was using his powers to scry, and may not have been able to communicate. Any attempt to breach the minds of the Space Wolves or Russ may have been construed as an attack anyway.

Regardless, you said it yourself, Magnus initially wanted to accept the Emperor punishment. He just thought that the Emperor's punishment was his death and the death of his legion and world. When it really wasn't. What good would surrendering have done if Russ was under orders to kill him and his planet anyway? Evacuating or trying to hide his forces could have been construed as trying to escape his punishment. If the police are coming for you, it's best to let them come to you instead of rushing out to meet them or trying to hide.

Continuing with the police analogy from before... Police officer shows up who has no intention of arresting suspect and plans on shooting him on sight. *Police officer shoots suspect* Police officer says "He was resisting arrest, it was a justified shooting". My response: "You can't call it a justified shooting when you never gave him a chance to surrender in the first place". Your response: "Well he should have tried harder to evade the police or something, or surrendered himself to the police officer who had no intention of trying to take him alive, it's his fault".

Hmm I am pretty sure level of power that Magnus has allows him to manifest and communicate. You don;t need to breech minds to do that - he was standing right there - having breached all the wards and such that you were worried about before and when the fleet was weeks away. They could not have done much to a image - maybe the sisters of silence could have disrupted his sending but that's about it.

From the same part of the book, Magnus repeatedly states its HIS punishment and his legionaries ask - why do we have to suffer it?

He did send the entire fleet away already and he does have a backup plan to save some of his Legion - or perhaps a part of him does. If he had stayed and been broadcasting we surrender on all channels - he might have got a response - I am not sure he would have but he never tried. Whether that's pride, self destruction, shame or the fact that his legion would not have stood for it - as they didn't despite his specific orders not to resist.

I need to read the companion book and see what Russ and co thought was happening at the same time.

If Magnus and his Legion had been on full battle muster and resisted - I do really think that the outcome was in doubt.

I don't think that the police analogy works that well given that this is military dominated state ruled by an old testament style God.

Continuing with the police analogy from before... Police officer shows up who has no intention of arresting suspect and plans on shooting him on sight. *Police officer shoots suspect* Police officer says "He was resisting arrest, it was a justified shooting". My response: "You can't call it a justified shooting when you never gave him a chance to surrender in the first place". Your response: "Well he should have tried harder to evade the police or something, or surrendered himself to the police officer who had no intention of trying to take him alive, it's his fault

It more. "A emissary of God is on his way to you, you know you have gravely offended Him and that the penalty he has decreed for this is death. You use your forbidden powers to view the armada and the leaders but this does nothing more than confirm your guilt and the punishment that is coming. As such a grave sinner you have several options - repent and throw yourself on the mercy of the emissary - knowing that they may have none or resist and confirm your heresy.

He kinda tries to do both but succeeds at neither - its a pretty human reaction but his culpability is clear in all respects.