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I'm not a tournament/meta gamer, but I also don't run Alaitoc or Eldar Soup.

The Wraithknight is one of the few "garbage" units in the Eldar codex in that it's simply so expensive and so unimpressive I wouldn't buy or build one (which is a shame, since I'd like one "centrepiece" model...and thought the Wraithknight would be it.).

All you need to do is look at the datasheet to see how poor it is. It's a genuine penalty you're instilling on yourself. Do I really care? Not tremendously, I just thought it'd be a fun hobby project. It sucks I don't have anything to take to silly super-heavy slugfests though.

Humm - when an ability is so good you have to nerf units that can use them. Seems like the problem is the ability. The ability of -1 to hit stacking needs removed from the game - straight up removed. Did they learn nothing from invisibility? I guess not.

 Xenomancers wrote:
Humm - when an ability is so good you have to nerf units that can use them. Seems like the problem is the ability. The ability of -1 to hit stacking needs removed from the game - straight up removed. Did they learn nothing from invisibility? I guess not.

I don't think they should be removed as much as the game needs ways to balance them (say, being able to ready a unit instead of moving for a +1 to hit as an example). We have too many penalties and not enough bonuses in the game in my opinion.

Why should you be able to fire at Rangers with a heavy bolter on the move without the movement penalty? Should Rangers be unable to be Concealed?

Stacking -to-hit isn't necessarily a problem. CWE do it too easily too cheaply, and there's no hardcap. Those are the problems.

The title of this thread is confusing. You have posited a question you clearly believe you know the answer to and suggest fixes. Why not just call the topic "What's wrong the WK and how to fix it"?

Regardless, my main bud and 40k opponent is an Eldar player and we have discussed at length the weaknesses of the Wraithknight in comparison to the IK.

I completely agree that it is one or multiple of the following things;

1. Overcosted.
2. Not durable enough.
3. Not enough versatility compared to the IK (though no heavy unit of equivalent class has this, because they don't have their own special codex with stratagems, warlord traits etc).

Something needs to change for sure. The WK cannot exist as it is now when IK exist as they are. Similarly with Riptides. The Stompa is in a similar position to the WK in that it is massively overcosted and underperforming.

WKs do not have FLY, so cannot benefit from Lightning Fast reflexes. I am ok with this, but it is important to note that a WK can only receive -1 to be hit and even that can be ignored within 12".
Considering a WK SHOULD be getting close to take advantage of it's melee potential (that it is paying for) I find it hard to count that -1 to hit as being of value enough to merit a points increase. Also consider that Ulthwe or Iyanden are far better traits for the WK. And IKs can get similar abilities as those traits

Point is, just because Eldar can buff the bejesus out of other units, doesn't mean the WK is part of that. Most buffs only affect Infantry, Bikes or units that FLY. The WK isn't any of those things. The last CA made Eldar Psykers more expensive for good reason, because THOSE are the source of most buffs

So why is the WK paying for buffs it cannot benefit from again?
Oh yeah, it isn't. It's paying for being OP last edition

-

Three things for this discussion:

1. GW doesn't use calculations when determining points; they use "this feels about right" - and this has been stated by their design team(s).
2. Codex creep
3. 8th edition is not 7th edition - arguments about "your army was OP in that edition, making it fine for it to be overprice", are not relevant. -- Unless, you believe armies should come and go in cycles, from OP to UP. Which is just... wrong.

GW simply cannot design a balanced, or even close to it, game; this has been evident since 3rd/3.5 edition.

It's a real shame, but what can you do? Best thing you've got is hope - hope that your army is the one that gets to play this edition; and hope that they're not blatantly overpowered (so they're not "fotm", and can be enjoyed).

Bharring wrote:
Well, combining the Alaitoc strat with Lightning Reflexes (I believe it's got Fly) would give you -2 to hit. But where are you getting -3?

Conceal? Not infantry, can't target.
Drain? CC only, can't stack with Alaitoc
Baharroth? No way to make that impact ranged attacks

The army can do a -3 or worse (much worse), but not many at once, and I'm not sure they can do it on the Wraithknight.

It doesn't even have fly so it can get a -1 to hit at best.

fe40k wrote:
Three things for this discussion:

1. GW doesn't use calculations when determining points; they use "this feels about right" - and this has been stated by their design team(s).
2. Codex creep
3. 8th edition is not 7th edition - arguments about "your army was OP in that edition, making it fine for it to be overprice", are not relevant. -- Unless, you believe armies should come and go in cycles, from OP to UP. Which is just... wrong.

1) we aren't discussing GW using calculations, we are stating that 100pts more than an IK does NOT "feel right"
2) WKs were more expensive than IKs in their Indexes. Codex creep made this even worse
3) We are not saying this is how it is supposed to be, we are saying this is clearly how it is. And yes, it is wrong
GW saw the outcry for the WK being OP in 7th and over-corrected, by a long shot.

-

So, wouldn't that mean it gets less direct faction support than IKs?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Grav weaponry and Dev Cents went same way. OP last edition, trash now.

I think all Titan class units should be great at killing other titans, rather than making them super good against everything. Then the game just turns into my giant smashy things against your giant smashy things. Basically, I guess I am arguing that they should shine in large games and suffer terribly in smaller games. But...that's just my personal preference.

 Grumblewartz wrote:
I think all Titan class units should be great at killing other titans, rather than making them super good against everything. Then the game just turns into my giant smashy things against your giant smashy things. Basically, I guess I am arguing that they should shine in large games and suffer terribly in smaller games. But...that's just my personal preference.

I'd be ok with this.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
Similarly with Riptides. The Stompa is in a similar position to the WK in that it is massively overcosted and underperforming.

The Riptides and other stupid big Tau suits just shouldn't exist.

With the Stompa, I'm willing to wait for the Ork 'dex and see what changes with it before shouting that it needs tweaks as well - at least it has that opportunity

Short answer? No you don't.

You could add a Wraithknight to your already top-tier soup army and the rest of us would still struggle against your list.

The WK should be about a hundred points cheaper, and maybe some tweaks to weapons options.

That said, for a multitude of reasons, it's probably not super high on most people's lists of problems to solve. It does need a fix though.

 Vaktathi wrote:
The WK should be about a hundred points cheaper, and maybe some tweaks to weapons options.

That said, for a multitude of reasons, it's probably not super high on most people's lists of problems to solve. It does need a fix though.

Your last point is one I hear a lot, and one I'll never understand. GW is a huge company when compared against other companies within it's industry. Why is the narrative that they simply don't have the man power to analyze every unit so robust and dispersed so easily. They are a huge company, with a lot of resources at there disposal. My expectation is that before each chapter approved or even big FAQ, they should have analyzed every single unit in

the game they created and considered how they could better tweak said unit. And beyond that I just want brutal honesty and transparency from this company, almost always we get the exact opposite. Consider WOTC. When they update their banned and restricted lists, they include sentences similar to this: "when we banned X a few months ago we thought it would have Y effect and make Z healthier. We were wrong, it didn't have the desired effect, and

as such we are now unbanning X." I would love to read something like that from GW just once. Such as: "We understand a segment of the community wanted to see Dark Reapers points cost increase far more severely, but we feel comfortable with the adjustment we made." Or, "we understand the Wraithknight feels overcosted and underpowered given the newer knight class unit rule sets, however we still feel they shouldn't be adjusted (pretty awful

explanation but at least they admit people are having this consternation over the issue." Or God-forbid, "We felt this unit was so good and so over-represented in the recent past we are purposefully pricing it at a very noncompetitive rate."

GW should be looking at what Imperial Knights have done for all Imperial forces and be going "hmmmm"

Then they release an Aeldari knight codex that has several classes of knights.

Make the current one into 3 separate classes...

Assault (sword and board, +1 attack and WS)
Guardian (shield and either suncannon/hvy wraithcannon)
Heavy (Hvy wraithcannon and either second wraithcannon or suncannon)
Add Spirit stones as standard and adjust points

Create new smaller scout class knight with twin pulse laser, or lance and secondary weapon.

Done

I'd really rather not get more Eldar knight plastic kits (and I don't imagine we will). If they ever do another, a form of Eldar super heavy tank would be nice if they do another kit - again, I doubt it.

There was an interesting AMA on reddit with an ex GW employee who spoke about when they first created the WK and how they costed it in the then points system to be about 450 pts but the execs said make it cheaper so more people will buy it.

The WK was the bogeyman model in previous edition but I'm sure it sold bucket loads. It got nerfed. It will stay nerfed for sometime because they don't need to sell more kits of it.

It will gather dust on the shelves of countless try hard eldar players around the globe which is sad. If you're not a tournament player who cares, run it and enjoy it for it is and its hallowed OP memories.

Its the Eldar Drop Pod.

There was an interesting AMA on reddit with an ex GW employee who spoke about when they first created the WK and how they costed it in the then points system to be about 450 pts but the execs said make it cheaper so more people will buy it.

The WK was the bogeyman model in previous edition but I'm sure it sold bucket loads. It got nerfed. It will stay nerfed for sometime because they don't need to sell more kits of it.

It will gather dust on the shelves of countless try hard eldar players around the globe which is sad. If you're not a tournament player who cares, run it and enjoy it for it is and its hallowed OP memories.

Its the Eldar Drop Pod.

Yup, exactly my thoughts.

I think that's the primary beef for me...it's not even "fun" in casual games. It's so bad you'll just be angry all game watching it wander around (or dying immediately). I run almost every unit in the Eldar codex at some point, the WK gets a frustrating pass.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=afDzcXSZVl0
^SS82's most recent battle report.

Pretty accurate representation of WKs in most games. Their durability is quite pathetic especially compared to IKs.

Considering how much of the eldar codex is suboptimal, I'd love a few units to be more viable. Vypers, bikers, banshees, walkers are all close but just not there. However, these can all be used at some point. Elbows said it best, it's not even remotely fun to take a WK casually.

Marmatag, going to heartily disagree with you there. You'd be fighting a 1600 point soup army with 2000 points. WKs are just deadweight currently.

 bullyboy wrote:
GW should be looking at what Imperial Knights have done for all Imperial forces and be going "hmmmm"

Then they release an Aeldari knight codex that has several classes of knights.

Make the current one into 3 separate classes...

Assault (sword and board, +1 attack and WS)
Guardian (shield and either suncannon/hvy wraithcannon)
Heavy (Hvy wraithcannon and either second wraithcannon or suncannon)
Add Spirit stones as standard and adjust points

Create new smaller scout class knight with twin pulse laser, or lance and secondary weapon.

Done

Technically the smaller version already exists in the wraithlord. Two heavy weapons, a melee upgrade, and two lighter defensive weapons.

 Nithaniel wrote:
There was an interesting AMA on reddit with an ex GW employee who spoke about when they first created the WK and how they costed it in the then points system to be about 450 pts but the execs said make it cheaper so more people will buy it.

The WK was the bogeyman model in previous edition but I'm sure it sold bucket loads. It got nerfed. It will stay nerfed for sometime because they don't need to sell more kits of it.

It will gather dust on the shelves of countless try hard eldar players around the globe which is sad. If you're not a tournament player who cares, run it and enjoy it for it is and its hallowed OP memories.

Its the Eldar Drop Pod.

Except Drop Pods weren't ever broken.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Except Drop Pods weren't ever broken.

Yea the top lists weren't all space marines with free drop pods.

 Mmmpi wrote:

 bullyboy wrote:
GW should be looking at what Imperial Knights have done for all Imperial forces and be going "hmmmm"

Then they release an Aeldari knight codex that has several classes of knights.

Make the current one into 3 separate classes...

Assault (sword and board, +1 attack and WS)
Guardian (shield and either suncannon/hvy wraithcannon)
Heavy (Hvy wraithcannon and either second wraithcannon or suncannon)
Add Spirit stones as standard and adjust points

Create new smaller scout class knight with twin pulse laser, or lance and secondary weapon.

Done

Technically the smaller version already exists in the wraithlord. Two heavy weapons, a melee upgrade, and two lighter defensive weapons.

nah, the wraithlord is the dreadnought equivalent, but I see your point that there may not be a place for something between a wraithlord and wraithknight (although something sitting at around 14 wounds wouldn't be bad). Plus the mini knight should be manned, unlike the wraithlord, which would make it different (in lore at least).

At the very least, I would like to see the wraithknight addressed in Chapter Approved with the weapon options being more relaxed and points adjusted accordingly.

Az,
To be fair, only the OP Gladius were free pods. The pre-Gladius obsec spam and the later Skyhammer were OP flavors of Pods where the Pods weren't free.

Minor technical point, but same conclusion.

 peteralmo wrote:
The little fluff argument is that the eldar are supposed to be exponentially more advanced in there technology, far outpacing astartes, admech, and tau, and really only being rivaled by necrons, with even they lagging behind a bit...

Woah now, sir. Necrons are most certainly more advanced than the Eldar. We've mastered immortality and regeneration! Enslaved the gods! Time itself is our plaything!

... just don't look at our Codex for proof of that.

In all seriousness, we're suffering from a pretty similar thing. Our Monoliths and Obelisks are supposed to be our big super-advanced vehicles, but no one uses them because they are absolute garbage. I'm hoping that once all the factions are released, GW will take a good balancing pass that lets players use their toys. Even if it's not competitive, it can at least be fun.

The fluff is very consistant about Necrons being much more advanced than Eldar in tech.

It seems like, on a scale from 1 to 10:

1. Kroot
2. IoM on backwater planets, IG, PDFs
3. IoM best tech - Mechnicum, Assasins, etc
4. Tau
6. DAoT

Pre-fall Eldar dialed it up to 11.

Necrons sit comfortably at a 16.

 Nithaniel wrote:
There was an interesting AMA on reddit with an ex GW employee who spoke about when they first created the WK and how they costed it in the then points system to be about 450 pts but the execs said make it cheaper so more people will buy it.

The WK was the bogeyman model in previous edition but I'm sure it sold bucket loads. It got nerfed. It will stay nerfed for sometime because they don't need to sell more kits of it.

It will gather dust on the shelves of countless try hard eldar players around the globe which is sad. If you're not a tournament player who cares, run it and enjoy it for it is and its hallowed OP memories.

Its the Eldar Drop Pod.

That was the era of Tom Kirby so I'd believe it. Supposibly Roundtree has a different approach to the business (the bundles via games and starter boxes being a way around the board not letting him just cut prices), but it doesn't mean the studio doesn't innately take a heavier hand to units that were too good in the past, though with the playtesters being involved I feel that the situation is based on some feedback that showed it was really good with some combo (a combo that may have even been nerfed separately without adjusting the WK back down to compensate). Considering how GW rolls currently they'll likely give it a points drop in CA to get them at least on the table in casual play.