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CA already happened and no CW units were improved in any way, so to me it seems like everything there is like GW wants it. And price is not the only problem with WK. Compared to better super heavies, he always had that flaw in design where you have to choose between either carrying big guns or having an actual invul. In modern meta I don't think super heavy can allow itself having that leisure. Plus, touching on WK can wake up flashbacks in some players, like Imperial Knight players, as they can go all HOLY RAEG, feeling threatened that story is repeating itself.

I'd be happy to be proven wrong of course, but imo, WKs are now where GW wants them to be.

 Shadenuat wrote:
CA already happened and no CW units were improved in any way, so to me it seems like everything there is like GW wants it. And price is not the only problem with WK. Compared to better super heavies, he always had that flaw in design where you have to choose between either carrying big guns or having an actual invul. In modern meta I don't think super heavy can allow itself having that leisure. Plus, touching on WK can wake up flashbacks in some players, like Imperial Knight players, as they can go all HOLY RAEG, feeling threatened that story is repeating itself.

I'd be happy to be proven wrong of course, but imo, WKs are now where GW wants them to be.

CA 2017 happened. I was talking about CA 2018, or are you choosing to pretend we're not getting one of those every years to allow yourself an excuse to be saltier?

Seriously, I swear people like to pretend things are worse than they are just to complain.

I am being realistic - price change, even if happens, would not change WK overall design, its underwhelming guns, problem with getting invul, no stratagems to increase that invul, or quite a big amount of psychic powers not affecting it at all. But re-designing that big of a unit shouldn't be a priority while some factions still even lack codices, so that's why I am betting more on newer edition than current one bandaging stuff.

While I agree to an extent...a points reduction would be far better than nothing. It's a start, and would assuage a lot of peoples hesitation to take them in casual or narrative events.

At 400 points, I'd take one on occasion for fun.

 Shadenuat wrote:
I am being realistic - price change, even if happens, would not change WK overall design, its underwhelming guns, problem with getting invul, no stratagems to increase that invul, or quite a big amount of psychic powers not affecting it at all. But re-designing that big of a unit shouldn't be a priority while some factions still even lack codices, so that's why I am betting more on newer edition than current one bandaging stuff.

I wouldn't bet on a new edition until wee know what GW is going to do with this edition next year once the codexes are finished getting rolled out. For all we know we'll be seeing an 8.5 ed or campaign expansions to act as replacements for codexes going forward for the forseeable future.

I think that's why I'm so curious to see what Chapter Approved 2018 'does'. We've seen a few changes in rules, a few changes in points, etc. over the past year, but we haven't seen much in the way of fixing actual units. Now granted they could simply re-do the weapons and re-do the points and the Wraithknight might become "okay", but I think Chapter Approved for this year will give a large hint at how the game will be going forward.

CA 2017 was focused more on stuff that was ready to go out of the gate for the edition from what I can tell. CA 2018 has more potential to be where they start doing things like updating rules and giving us special stuff beyond what we've seen.

The real problem with the wraithknight (and wraithlord) is primarily lack of dakka for the points. It's a huge chunk of your army wasted on something that barely shoots/swings. None of the big wraith constructs really do damage compared to actual competitive Aeldari units.

For the less than the price of 1 double starcannon wraithknight, you could literally take 15 Dark Reapers, 10 of which will double shoot with Yvraine. The latter is an absurd amount of dakka, the former, not so much. Literally spent 500+ points for 8 shots. It's insanely bad. Even with perfect rolls one squad of Iron Warriors cultists could literally tie it up for the whole game.

Wraith units are (ideally) anvils in an army of glass hammers. Having a lower damage output isn't exactly a bad thing, the problem is the game focuses largely on having damage output being the main means of winning the game.

Yeah I agree. I'm speaking from the standpoint of why no 8th edition competitive player will ever take them. They are simply awful in the competitive scene. "Anvils" aren't very well represented in the competitive scene due the prevalence of high AP units in every codex. The only thing I've really seen lately that serve that purpose are haemonculus-buffed grotesques/talos and.... blightlord terminators in that one BAO list? Today's competitive meta is all about dakka.

barboggo wrote:
Yeah I agree. I'm speaking from the standpoint of why no 8th edition competitive player will ever take them. They are simply awful in the competitive scene. "Anvils" aren't very well represented in the competitive scene due the prevalence of high AP units in every codex. The only thing I've really seen lately that serve that purpose are haemonculus-buffed grotesques/talos and.... blightlord terminators in that one BAO list? Today's competitive meta is all about dakka.

Pretty much. The game is too heavilly skewed towards negative modifiers with a lack of positive modifiers to make anvil units worth taking.

What Competitive environment are you speaking of? The horde forces of Jan-March? The Flyrant forces till the FAQ hit? The Rule of Three forces til Knights jumped in and bent the meta? The current IK Soup till Space Wolves hits a stride? The most likely upcoming Orktober meta till CA is released?

What one?

It's massively overcosted and needs a points drop. If you're really scared it might be OP, just make it 0-1.

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Wraith units are (ideally) anvils in an army of glass hammers. Having a lower damage output isn't exactly a bad thing, the problem is the game focuses largely on having damage output being the main means of winning the game.

I'd prefer to see more anvil brought to the wraith constructs. they are suppossed to be extremely durable. from reading it seems they should be harder than power armor and on par with a land raider or terminator. I think thay should have a 2+ armor and adjust points from there rather than more dakka. that and given the size of the wraithsheld it should be a 4++ suddenly that sword and board wraithknight might be able to make its points back. and be a fast assaulting machine, or use the 2 wraithcannons to drop things that have a harder time takign it down.

on the previously mentioned Stompa I actually think it is more overcosted currently than a WK but maybe the codex will fix that. The stompas issue is a ton of shots but some weapons average less than one hit. I have 2 Wk and 1 Stompa both just sit pretty on a shelf currently.

I think the more durable option would be good. Then again I'm all for more anvil options existing as the game seems to be gearing too far towards being about who does the most damage first.

Probably, yes. It was stupid broken in 7th so GW makes it unplayable. Par for the course.