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 Adeptus Doritos wrote:
For the life of me, I can't figure out why Space Wolf players believed that being the last Space Marine release meant they were going to be treated significantly better than everyone else.

Because they always are.

Martel732 wrote:

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:
For the life of me, I can't figure out why Space Wolf players believed that being the last Space Marine release meant they were going to be treated significantly better than everyone else.

Because they always are.

Except when they aren't. Like restricting them from the anti-flyer tanks and certain varieties of terminator armour for no valid reason.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Excommunicatus wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

First off, the issue is trademarks, not copyrights. And that was solved by officially claiming "Adeptus Astartes" as a trademark to fix the issue. Primaris Marines seem to take their name from the fact that they have a Primarch organ implanted into them.

Copyrights and trademarks are largely indistinguishable to the layperson so when I'm around laypeople I use the layterm 'copyright' to cover all aspects of IP.

Good catch though, officer. Write it down in your notebook.

Whether Adeptus Astartes works or not remains to be seen. Space Marine used to have a TM after it, too. A claim means nothing.

Sorry, after the Chapterhouse fiasco and Spots the Space Marine I've developed a sort of annoyance for when people mix the two things up since, legally speaking, they are very different from each other (trademarks don't expire for example). And unlike "Space Marine", "Adeptus Astartes" is unique enough to be upheld in court since GW is the only one using that term for marketing and it wasn't really a public lexicon thing before hand.

De nada.

For my part, after the Chapter House fiasco I've gotten rather sick of every armchair IP lawyer on every 40k forum pointlessly policing IP terminology, so that's why my response formerly included some snarkiness.

Apologies. I guess we both assumed.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:
For the life of me, I can't figure out why Space Wolf players believed that being the last Space Marine release meant they were going to be treated significantly better than everyone else.

Because they always are.

Except when they aren't. Like restricting them from the anti-flyer tanks and certain varieties of terminator armour for no valid reason.

Maybe those pages were just stuck together from all the developer goo.

Martel732 wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:
For the life of me, I can't figure out why Space Wolf players believed that being the last Space Marine release meant they were going to be treated significantly better than everyone else.

Because they always are.

Except when they aren't. Like restricting them from the anti-flyer tanks and certain varieties of terminator armour for no valid reason.

Maybe those pages were just stuck together from all the developer goo.

No. Just no.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:
For the life of me, I can't figure out why Space Wolf players believed that being the last Space Marine release meant they were going to be treated significantly better than everyone else.

Because they always are.

Except when they aren't. Like restricting them from the anti-flyer tanks and certain varieties of terminator armour for no valid reason.

Yeah heaven forbid the Vanilla codex have stuff kept unique to them huh?

Yeah i'll trade useless terminators and marginal aa tanks for 7th ed twc. I think the sw came out on top there, just as they always do.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:
For the life of me, I can't figure out why Space Wolf players believed that being the last Space Marine release meant they were going to be treated significantly better than everyone else.

Because they always are.

Except when they aren't. Like restricting them from the anti-flyer tanks and certain varieties of terminator armour for no valid reason.

Yeah heaven forbid the Vanilla codex have stuff kept unique to them huh?

I was just saying they weren't the golden sons who got everything (other than meme status as they wolfed their wolves across wolfing tables to wolf tournaments) and were left out in the cold (insert Fenris reference here) a number of times on new releases.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:
For the life of me, I can't figure out why Space Wolf players believed that being the last Space Marine release meant they were going to be treated significantly better than everyone else.

Because they always are.

Except when they aren't. Like restricting them from the anti-flyer tanks and certain varieties of terminator armour for no valid reason.

Yeah heaven forbid the Vanilla codex have stuff kept unique to them huh?

So... you want unique 'vanilla'?

It's a bold strategy, Cotton.

I can definitely see how 'vanilla' marines should have unique SCs, Traits and Strategems, like every Faction does, but I cannot for the life of me think of a single decent reason why basic SM tech wouldn't be available to all Chapters.

 Excommunicatus wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:
For the life of me, I can't figure out why Space Wolf players believed that being the last Space Marine release meant they were going to be treated significantly better than everyone else.

Because they always are.

Except when they aren't. Like restricting them from the anti-flyer tanks and certain varieties of terminator armour for no valid reason.

Yeah heaven forbid the Vanilla codex have stuff kept unique to them huh?

So... you want unique 'vanilla'?

It's a bold strategy, Cotton.

I can definitely see how 'vanilla' marines should have unique SCs, Traits and Strategems, like every Faction does, but I cannot for the life of me think of a single decent reason why basic SM tech wouldn't be available to all Chapters.

And that's the excuse to keep Blood and Dark Angels as separate codices. I'm annoyed by that too I promise.

I can live with Vanilla Marines being the baseline and the less codex compliant chapters being that baseline plus their unique stuff, but considering that even codex chapters tend to have things that take them beyond the codex (Tyrannic War Vets for example), I feel like there should be a unit or two for each of the codex chapters that is unique to that chapter. Just something to give them a bit more flavor and variety while not straying into "needs a whole codex to hold all their extra stuff" territory.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

And that's the excuse to keep Blood and Dark Angels as separate codices. I'm annoyed by that too I promise.

Ok.

You can't have 'unique' 'vanilla'. It's a contradiction in terms.

 Excommunicatus wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

And that's the excuse to keep Blood and Dark Angels as separate codices. I'm annoyed by that too I promise.

Ok.

You can't have 'unique' 'vanilla'. It's a contradiction in terms.

Vanilla is its own unique flavor, compared to Chocolate or Strawberry for Dark and Blood Angels. Some things will be the same but they're different. What GW just did by throwing a bunch of Vanilla unique items in their codices was basically give those flavors a vanilla swirl. So why are you going to have Vanilla by itself now?

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Excommunicatus wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

And that's the excuse to keep Blood and Dark Angels as separate codices. I'm annoyed by that too I promise.

Ok.

You can't have 'unique' 'vanilla'. It's a contradiction in terms.

Vanilla is its own unique flavor, compared to Chocolate or Strawberry for Dark and Blood Angels. Some things will be the same but they're different. What GW just did by throwing a bunch of Vanilla unique items in their codices was basically give those flavors a vanilla swirl. So why are you going to have Vanilla by itself now?

Probably to keep the size of the book down. If all the Astartes who have a splash to swirl of vanilla were added to the regular vanilla book we'd have a Neapolitan tome of options, and a higher price tag and longer development time to match.

There are just too many extra things that exist in those books to mix them into the regular Marine book anymore without going the route of forcing people to buy two books (the Astartes one and then a supplement book) to make it work without overdoing the main book.

Basically it's just too many flavors to go that far. Heck at this point I almost want to kick the Ultramarines out of the codex to be their own thing and let the less codex compliant chapter get their own Guillimanless book.

Chaos has its own seperate codexes for Thousand Sons, Deathguard, (Soon Khorne), Chaos Space Marines / Regenades, and soon Slaanesh (Emperor's Children).

WE'd hope that each space marine codex that is now the normal codex is as different from one another as the chaos codexes are.

 Asherian Command wrote:
Chaos has its own seperate codexes for Thousand Sons, Deathguard, (Soon Khorne), Chaos Space Marines / Regenades, and soon Slaanesh (Emperor's Children).

WE'd hope that each space marine codex that is now the normal codex is as different from one another as the chaos codexes are.

Unlike Chaos who jealously guards it's secrets, the Imperium is based on standard template construction meaning that for the most part everyone should have the same core for their army in a given faction with only the special stuff taking it in new and different ways. The core of the Imperial faction limits diversity to an extent and it really comes down to "Vanilla + stuff" in the setting.

Dang, why is everyone so hostile to the OP? I don't play marines so I have no idea what's in the codexes, but there's no need treat him like he's what's wrong with the world. Besides his opinion isn't even that wrong imo. It's just that there was very little relative value from switching between index to codex for basically anyone. Points tweaks and some unique abilities don't really cover $40. This does go back to the rules needing to be free if GW wants to have a living edition. But that's just me.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Asherian Command wrote:
Chaos has its own seperate codexes for Thousand Sons, Deathguard, (Soon Khorne), Chaos Space Marines / Regenades, and soon Slaanesh (Emperor's Children).

WE'd hope that each space marine codex that is now the normal codex is as different from one another as the chaos codexes are.

Unlike Chaos who jealously guards it's secrets, the Imperium is based on standard template construction meaning that for the most part everyone should have the same core for their army in a given faction with only the special stuff taking it in new and different ways. The core of the Imperial faction limits diversity to an extent and it really comes down to "Vanilla + stuff" in the setting.

Honestly I would love to play 30k Legion in 40k. And if they could bridge that gap they would make so much money.

Like a Unified Dark Angels Legion using legion tactics would give so much interesting diversity to the marines as the way marines fought in 30k is very different.

I dislike the current gw strategy of removing the uniqueness from a chapter codex.

The reality is that space marines are all bad codex in this sense. They are all elites forces with dynamic fighting styles that are not represented in the codex at all.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also - anyone claiming that space wolves are a bad codex in terms of power level are totally insane. All their power units got better. Wolfen dreads are totally insane. 6 inch heroic intervention is insane. Hitting on 2's in Melle is insane. 6" -1 to hit auras are insane. 50 point drops on flyers is insane. They are going to outperform every space marine chapter by a long shot.

 Xenomancers wrote:
The reality is that space marines are all bad codex in this sense. They are all elites forces with dynamic fighting styles that are not represented in the codex at all.

Agreed.

Each (First Founding) First Chapters all have different fighting styles as emphasized in 30k, and in the fluff.

Dark Angels are ranged fighters with their *wings*

Blood Angels are the Vanguard

Space Wolves are the beatstick and that is not represented at all apart from strategems.

We cannot take what made them very unique or gave them character. The Marine Codexes though have always been the 'baby' armies which sucks but this edition has made them less and less viable to play with each new codex.

Dandelion wrote:
Dang, why is everyone so hostile to the OP? I don't play marines so I have no idea what's in the codexes, but there's no need treat him like he's what's wrong with the world. Besides his opinion isn't even that wrong imo. It's just that there was very little relative value from switching between index to codex for basically anyone. Points tweaks and some unique abilities don't really cover $40. This does go back to the rules needing to be free if GW wants to have a living edition. But that's just me.

We're 20 codexes into this edition counting Space Wolves and somehow he inflated expectations to an unreasonable level and blames GW for not catering to his desires.

We were never going to get formations as a mass release of strategems. There wasn't enough new stuff to show off beyond mini-marine kits we already had being given to the Wolves too, and while the points values are the most obvious change, the massed addition of new relics, SAGAS (which work differently than warlord traits in ANY OTHER ARMY), strategems and a gak ton of new lore (including the most indepth look at how Primaris work in a chapter we've go to date). Did they get a lot new in terms of rules? No. There wasn't much you could add when you're not adding new stuff to the game as a whole. But in terms of the most overall update to a single faction, they got what is basically the most extensive updates we've got date.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Asherian Command wrote:
Honestly I would love to play 30k Legion in 40k. And if they could bridge that gap they would make so much money

I feel like the Primaris Marines are the best way for them to bridge in Legion style army options, especially considering the way the Primaris run units being very similar to how Legions run units.

That said, I'm marking my Imperial Fists up like the VII Legion regardless.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

Dandelion wrote:
Dang, why is everyone so hostile to the OP? I don't play marines so I have no idea what's in the codexes, but there's no need treat him like he's what's wrong with the world. Besides his opinion isn't even that wrong imo. It's just that there was very little relative value from switching between index to codex for basically anyone. Points tweaks and some unique abilities don't really cover $40. This does go back to the rules needing to be free if GW wants to have a living edition. But that's just me.

We're 20 codexes into this edition counting Space Wolves and somehow he inflated expectations to an unreasonable level and blames GW for not catering to his desires.

We were never going to get formations as a mass release of strategems. There wasn't enough new stuff to show off beyond mini-marine kits we already had being given to the Wolves too, and while the points values are the most obvious change, the massed addition of new relics, SAGAS (which work differently than warlord traits in ANY OTHER ARMY), strategems and a gak ton of new lore (including the most indepth look at how Primaris work in a chapter we've go to date). Did they get a lot new in terms of rules? No. There wasn't much you could add when you're not adding new stuff to the game as a whole. But in terms of the most overall update to a single faction, they got what is basically the most extensive updates we've got date.

Well, it almost sounded like this was his first codex after being index only. If it is, then I can understand some inflated expectations. As for the update, codexes are just poor value in general. Minor points tweaks, some faction abilities (stratagems, relics) and that's about it. This doesn't mean the SW codex is worse, just that it's also a victim of GW's rules distribution policy.

We've got 20 codexes (going on 21 in Orktober) in the span of two years. If they weren't a little weak in terms of updates over the indexes and lacking massive releases of new units I would have been a lot more shocked.

 ClockworkZion wrote:
We've got 20 codexes (going on 21 in Orktober) in the span of two years. If they weren't a little weak in terms of updates over the indexes and lacking massive releases of new units I would have been a lot more shocked.

See, now that's [Expletive Deleted].

Why should we be grateful that GW were forced to rush codexes as a result of their own lack of foresight? We should accept mistakes and lessened content because they couldn't do the job properly or, more likely, didn't want to pay to get the job done right first time?

Nah. GW is not doing us a favour by releasing products.

I feel like the Primaris Marines are the best way for them to bridge in Legion style army options, especially considering the way the Primaris run units being very similar to how Legions run units.

That said, I'm marking my Imperial Fists up like the VII Legion regardless

I'm more saying : "Lets have forgeworld 30k armies be viable in 40k as well"

It would be cool but we'll see.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

Karol wrote:
Not a SW player, but isn't the problem with the primaris in their codex, not the fact that they are in it, but that GW gave a stupid explanation why they took them in? Guys that did play SW here told me, I know not the best kind of an argument, that SW gene seed works only with fenrisian human. Cawls SW primaris would either have to be ultramarine geneseed bearers, or die durning the proces of implanation. Same with Primaris Officers,wolf priests are picked out of Long Fangs by other priests, there is no way for a 100year old primaris to become a wolf priest. Rune Priest spend 50 fenrisian years as skalds, so there would be no way for a primaris psyker to be old enough to leave the novitate to become a full fledged priest. Plus a Priest would have to take a primaris in as a pupil,because they only take people in through co optation.
From what people say about the SW fluff here and at my store. It looks like the codexs fluff was writen by someone who didn't knew much about SW fluff, was told to implement primaris in to the codex no matter what, and just wrote stuff he or she thought to be "cool". It is like a fanfiction made legal by GW, or the last jedi.

Not true! The original VI Legion had members from a wide range of sources before Russ was found (to include Terra), so the problem seems to be the geneseed was tainted over time by Ferensian stock to only work on Ferensians. Additionally, Cawl used Ferensians to make the Primaris Wolves too.

And let's not forget that these guys were fighting up to a hundred years before rejoining the boys on Fenris and it's been a good chunk of time since then. I think in total the older Primaris have about 300 years of combat experiance now? Even if it's only 200, it's still enough to meet requirements.

No, the real complaint should be that we didn't get anything about the only confirmed Space Wolf successors out of the Primaris. Where the heck is the Wolfspear!?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Excommunicatus wrote:
Isn't that just the problem with Primaris in general, though?

You have a society that's notably suspicious of new technology and new things and always on the lookout for corruption, but who then suddenly welcome Primaris marines with open arms and don't ask questions about their dodgy origins 'cause you can't copyright 'space marine'.

First off, the issue is trademarks, not copyrights. And that was solved by officially claiming "Adeptus Astartes" as a trademark to fix the issue. Primaris Marines seem to take their name from the fact that they have a Primarch organ implanted into them.

The geneseed wasn't tainted over time, it was tainted from the start, the 13th knew and Bulveye tried to hide it from Russ but Russ already knew.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

Karol wrote:
Not a SW player, but isn't the problem with the primaris in their codex, not the fact that they are in it, but that GW gave a stupid explanation why they took them in? Guys that did play SW here told me, I know not the best kind of an argument, that SW gene seed works only with fenrisian human. Cawls SW primaris would either have to be ultramarine geneseed bearers, or die durning the proces of implanation. Same with Primaris Officers,wolf priests are picked out of Long Fangs by other priests, there is no way for a 100year old primaris to become a wolf priest. Rune Priest spend 50 fenrisian years as skalds, so there would be no way for a primaris psyker to be old enough to leave the novitate to become a full fledged priest. Plus a Priest would have to take a primaris in as a pupil,because they only take people in through co optation.
From what people say about the SW fluff here and at my store. It looks like the codexs fluff was writen by someone who didn't knew much about SW fluff, was told to implement primaris in to the codex no matter what, and just wrote stuff he or she thought to be "cool". It is like a fanfiction made legal by GW, or the last jedi.

Not true! The original VI Legion had members from a wide range of sources before Russ was found (to include Terra), so the problem seems to be the geneseed was tainted over time by Ferensian stock to only work on Ferensians. Additionally, Cawl used Ferensians to make the Primaris Wolves too.

And let's not forget that these guys were fighting up to a hundred years before rejoining the boys on Fenris and it's been a good chunk of time since then. I think in total the older Primaris have about 300 years of combat experiance now? Even if it's only 200, it's still enough to meet requirements.

No, the real complaint should be that we didn't get anything about the only confirmed Space Wolf successors out of the Primaris. Where the heck is the Wolfspear!?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Excommunicatus wrote:
Isn't that just the problem with Primaris in general, though?

You have a society that's notably suspicious of new technology and new things and always on the lookout for corruption, but who then suddenly welcome Primaris marines with open arms and don't ask questions about their dodgy origins 'cause you can't copyright 'space marine'.

First off, the issue is trademarks, not copyrights. And that was solved by officially claiming "Adeptus Astartes" as a trademark to fix the issue. Primaris Marines seem to take their name from the fact that they have a Primarch organ implanted into them.

The geneseed wasn't tainted over time, it was tainted from the start, the 13th knew and Bulveye tried to hide it from Russ but Russ already knew.

the fact that the curse first appered in the 13th company makes me suspect the taint went in when they started applying the canis Helix to adults.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
We've got 20 codexes (going on 21 in Orktober) in the span of two years. If they weren't a little weak in terms of updates over the indexes and lacking massive releases of new units I would have been a lot more shocked.

except they're not weak at all. Unless you mean from a "new units" POV. In fact I'd argue that the codices right now are, when taken together, the best we've gotten from GW since I started playing, with one or two notable exceptions the balance of power between the codexes is MUCH MUCH more even. sure some codices are better then others, but by and large, we're in a better condition then past editions that way. Which to my mind is the OPs problem. he didn't want an army "on par" with everyone else. he wanted to be better in every way. Given his focus on formations etc I kinda wonder if he's a newer 40k player who just liked that space wolves where the "better then space marines in every way" codex.

BrianDavion wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

Karol wrote:
Not a SW player, but isn't the problem with the primaris in their codex, not the fact that they are in it, but that GW gave a stupid explanation why they took them in? Guys that did play SW here told me, I know not the best kind of an argument, that SW gene seed works only with fenrisian human. Cawls SW primaris would either have to be ultramarine geneseed bearers, or die durning the proces of implanation. Same with Primaris Officers,wolf priests are picked out of Long Fangs by other priests, there is no way for a 100year old primaris to become a wolf priest. Rune Priest spend 50 fenrisian years as skalds, so there would be no way for a primaris psyker to be old enough to leave the novitate to become a full fledged priest. Plus a Priest would have to take a primaris in as a pupil,because they only take people in through co optation.
From what people say about the SW fluff here and at my store. It looks like the codexs fluff was writen by someone who didn't knew much about SW fluff, was told to implement primaris in to the codex no matter what, and just wrote stuff he or she thought to be "cool". It is like a fanfiction made legal by GW, or the last jedi.

Not true! The original VI Legion had members from a wide range of sources before Russ was found (to include Terra), so the problem seems to be the geneseed was tainted over time by Ferensian stock to only work on Ferensians. Additionally, Cawl used Ferensians to make the Primaris Wolves too.

And let's not forget that these guys were fighting up to a hundred years before rejoining the boys on Fenris and it's been a good chunk of time since then. I think in total the older Primaris have about 300 years of combat experiance now? Even if it's only 200, it's still enough to meet requirements.

No, the real complaint should be that we didn't get anything about the only confirmed Space Wolf successors out of the Primaris. Where the heck is the Wolfspear!?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Excommunicatus wrote:
Isn't that just the problem with Primaris in general, though?

You have a society that's notably suspicious of new technology and new things and always on the lookout for corruption, but who then suddenly welcome Primaris marines with open arms and don't ask questions about their dodgy origins 'cause you can't copyright 'space marine'.

First off, the issue is trademarks, not copyrights. And that was solved by officially claiming "Adeptus Astartes" as a trademark to fix the issue. Primaris Marines seem to take their name from the fact that they have a Primarch organ implanted into them.

The geneseed wasn't tainted over time, it was tainted from the start, the 13th knew and Bulveye tried to hide it from Russ but Russ already knew.

the fact that the curse first appered in the 13th company makes me suspect the taint went in when they started applying the canis Helix to adults.

It didn't first appear in the 13th, all great companies had the curse. Though I think that was why so many of the 13th turned Wulfen as Bulveye had to clean up a lot of bodies so the Rout wouldn't find out.

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:
For the life of me, I can't figure out why Space Wolf players believed that being the last Space Marine release meant they were going to be treated significantly better than everyone else.

SW players are used to be Codex: SM+1. Not getting it means tantrums

 SHUPPET wrote:

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:
For the life of me, I can't figure out why Space Wolf players believed that being the last Space Marine release meant they were going to be treated significantly better than everyone else.

SW players are used to be Codex: SM+1. Not getting it means tantrums

whoa whoa whoa guys, let's not refer to this as "Space Wolf Players" this is "A Space Wolf player"