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BrianDavion wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:
For the life of me, I can't figure out why Space Wolf players believed that being the last Space Marine release meant they were going to be treated significantly better than everyone else.

SW players are used to be Codex: SM+1. Not getting it means tantrums

whoa whoa whoa guys, let's not refer to this as "Space Wolf Players" this is "A Space Wolf player"

Nah I gotta agree with Shuppet on this one. Space Wolves are always consistently better and their players are super entitled because of it.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:
For the life of me, I can't figure out why Space Wolf players believed that being the last Space Marine release meant they were going to be treated significantly better than everyone else.

SW players are used to be Codex: SM+1. Not getting it means tantrums

whoa whoa whoa guys, let's not refer to this as "Space Wolf Players" this is "A Space Wolf player"

Nah I gotta agree with Shuppet on this one. Space Wolves are always consistently better and their players are super entitled because of it.

I shall get the salt mines producing as much as I can!

But we all have to agree at some point that at least the new 8th edition lore for space wolves for primaris integration should at least be better than it currently is.

 Asherian Command wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:
For the life of me, I can't figure out why Space Wolf players believed that being the last Space Marine release meant they were going to be treated significantly better than everyone else.

SW players are used to be Codex: SM+1. Not getting it means tantrums

whoa whoa whoa guys, let's not refer to this as "Space Wolf Players" this is "A Space Wolf player"

Nah I gotta agree with Shuppet on this one. Space Wolves are always consistently better and their players are super entitled because of it.

I shall get the salt mines producing as much as I can!

But we all have to agree at some point that at least the new 8th edition lore for space wolves for primaris integration should at least be better than it currently is.

read the new codex yet?

 Asherian Command wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:
For the life of me, I can't figure out why Space Wolf players believed that being the last Space Marine release meant they were going to be treated significantly better than everyone else.

SW players are used to be Codex: SM+1. Not getting it means tantrums

whoa whoa whoa guys, let's not refer to this as "Space Wolf Players" this is "A Space Wolf player"

Nah I gotta agree with Shuppet on this one. Space Wolves are always consistently better and their players are super entitled because of it.

I shall get the salt mines producing as much as I can!

But we all have to agree at some point that at least the new 8th edition lore for space wolves for primaris integration should at least be better than it currently is.

Nah it's done fine. The fact Aggressors are said to be cheerful is just amazing in my mind.

Wouldn't you be happy being suited with some of the best armor in the game with a veritable armory on your hand?

read the new codex yet?

Yes! Infact I liked it!

Its just... With the wolves I don't really see them as the "Lets keep it the name everyone else does." Maybe one day we will have a unique primaris unit for each chapter.

Its the best so far of the primaris integration storyline.... (if that is my only noteworthy praise I can say so far! haven't completely finished reading it, I still don't like the format they have for it)

ah it's done fine. The fact Aggressors are said to be cheerful is just amazing in my mind.

Wish we had more honestly, the lore so far in the books is kind of lack luster. No new giant battle narratives at all which sucks and very little mention of the siege of fenris apart from a few quips here and there. ITs not as substantial as I hoped it would be.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Quickjager wrote:
Wouldn't you be happy being suited with some of the best armor in the game with a veritable armory on your hand?

Aggressors are still the silliest models i've ever seen but yes with that much fire power!

(But i rather they were gattling guns or a good ole assault cannon!)

One thing I'm wondering going forward is how interested GW is in making space marines more homogeneous model wise while using cheap/essentially free options like warlord traits and other print abilities to have the chapters be different. So far outside of one off LT releases chapters are not getting any really unique primaris units.

HoundsofDemos wrote:
One thing I'm wondering going forward is how interested GW is in making space marines more homogeneous model wise while using cheap/essentially free options like warlord traits and other print abilities to have the chapters be different. So far outside of one off LT releases chapters are not getting any really unique primaris units.

Which is funny considering how different each chaos legion is compared to one another in terms of rules.... So homogenizing the imperial space marines, but not the chaos legions. K cool.

BrianDavion wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
We've got 20 codexes (going on 21 in Orktober) in the span of two years. If they weren't a little weak in terms of updates over the indexes and lacking massive releases of new units I would have been a lot more shocked.

except they're not weak at all. Unless you mean from a "new units" POV. In fact I'd argue that the codices right now are, when taken together, the best we've gotten from GW since I started playing, with one or two notable exceptions the balance of power between the codexes is MUCH MUCH more even. sure some codices are better then others, but by and large, we're in a better condition then past editions that way. Which to my mind is the OPs problem. he didn't want an army "on par" with everyone else. he wanted to be better in every way. Given his focus on formations etc I kinda wonder if he's a newer 40k player who just liked that space wolves where the "better then space marines in every way" codex.

Did you even read the OPs post? Even just the second sentence?

I'm not talking about competitive power level.

None of it had to do with relative power, but just general content in the book. The last sentence summed it up:

I can't help but be very underwhelmed by this codex. It feels like I paid $40 for 3 pages at the back beyond what I already had in my index and one of those pages was a misprint.

His problem isn't that wolves aren't better, it's that he feels the codex itself isn't worth the $40 and year long wait.

 Asherian Command wrote:

HoundsofDemos wrote:
One thing I'm wondering going forward is how interested GW is in making space marines more homogeneous model wise while using cheap/essentially free options like warlord traits and other print abilities to have the chapters be different. So far outside of one off LT releases chapters are not getting any really unique primaris units.

Which is funny considering how different each chaos legion is compared to one another in terms of rules.... So homogenizing the imperial space marines, but not the chaos legions. K cool.

My comment wasn't so much complaining about it, so much as it's clear GW wants to reduce it's model line. Between the Forge World purge, Index to Codex purge and the Primaris kits having few options compared to the older models, it's clear GW wants to clean house and make things relatively simple.

HoundsofDemos wrote:

 Asherian Command wrote:

HoundsofDemos wrote:
One thing I'm wondering going forward is how interested GW is in making space marines more homogeneous model wise while using cheap/essentially free options like warlord traits and other print abilities to have the chapters be different. So far outside of one off LT releases chapters are not getting any really unique primaris units.

Which is funny considering how different each chaos legion is compared to one another in terms of rules.... So homogenizing the imperial space marines, but not the chaos legions. K cool.

My comment wasn't so much complaining about it, so much as it's clear GW wants to reduce it's model line. Between the Forge World purge, Index to Codex purge and the Primaris kits having few options compared to the older models, it's clear GW wants to clean house and make things relatively simple.

What models were purged during the Index and Codex switch?

I was of the belief that they purged units that didn't have models, not models.

My double auto cannon dread and chaplain on a bike to start. Let me rephrase, anything that they don't sell an exact model for in one kit at this particular moment got an ax. Going forward, I assume this will likely be an ongoing theme.

 Excommunicatus wrote:

HoundsofDemos wrote:

 Asherian Command wrote:

HoundsofDemos wrote:
One thing I'm wondering going forward is how interested GW is in making space marines more homogeneous model wise while using cheap/essentially free options like warlord traits and other print abilities to have the chapters be different. So far outside of one off LT releases chapters are not getting any really unique primaris units.

Which is funny considering how different each chaos legion is compared to one another in terms of rules.... So homogenizing the imperial space marines, but not the chaos legions. K cool.

My comment wasn't so much complaining about it, so much as it's clear GW wants to reduce it's model line. Between the Forge World purge, Index to Codex purge and the Primaris kits having few options compared to the older models, it's clear GW wants to clean house and make things relatively simple.

What models were purged during the Index and Codex switch?

I was of the belief that they purged units that didn't have models, not models.

Well he's going off the fact Forgeworld purged alot of upgrade sprues and the Entire Elysian Line.

More are coming we are going to see more and more purges and them scaling back the space marine line... Which is honestly fine. I want them to decommission the Centurions the most honestly.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

HoundsofDemos wrote:
My double auto cannon dread and chaplain on a bike to start. Let me rephrase, anything that they don't sell an exact model for in one kit at this particular moment got an ax. Going forward, I assume this will likely be an ongoing theme.

Yes which stinks. Cause I loved doing those conversions / kitbashing. Thats the fun of playing space marines was being able to do that with any unit.

What annoys me the most, neither of those for me were. I bought the AC arms from FW and the chaplain on a bike was a model they sold. I have a ton of kit bashed Marines, including both my Librarians . Its also clear that they want to simplify characters. Compare back in the day when any HQ choice had multiple kits or options. Now it's static clam pack.

I get that certain options might not be legal edition to edition but this is another level.

Final annoyed thought, the only White Scars special character lost the ability to take a bike in the codex, that's just BS.

I'm honestly glad that every other army in the game gets the same treatment the Space Marines get; one unique book per Chapter, instead of one book period containing all the Craftworlds/Hive Fleets/Dynasties, etc.

I'm also glad I can just grab a different codex for my Xenos, and have access to a brand new ruleset with the exact same models.

To throw my 2 cents into the ring, I'm rather disappointed lore-wise with the new book, it hasn't really added anything new, doesn't mention that Wolves have Ultima founding successors now and I swear they've cut out some of the lore and timeline sections that were in the previous codex. Again art wise, I'm disappointed there's no mention of successors and I think it's a shame that we've not got much new stuff painted up. Rules wise, the warlord trait botch is really disappointing and the change with wulfen dreadnoughts feels a bit weirdly done. I don't get why it wasn't just a dread with a beefed up statline and maybe a gimicky rule that has access to all the SW dread weapons. Instead it's the only way to field an axe and shield dread, which just feels completely weird lore-wise. Why would a regular dread not have access to the axe and shield (especially when they used to be able to), I sort of get the wulfen dread not having ranged weapons (given their nature) but I thought they'd be a little more customisable. Overall it's an alright book but if I were to compare it to another recent and fantastic GW book like the Stormcast battletome I'd say it really pales in comparison, but then I'd say that about all the 8th ed codecies I've seen to be completely honest.

It is really strange they didn't mention the Ultima Founding successors at all. And instead had the primariis integrate directly into the great companies. Seems odd.

I feel like the delay on the Space Wolves was more because of balance than anything else. Length of time it takes to a codex doesn't mean you're getting new stuff or more stuff, it just means it took longer to get the book. Correlation isn't causation and that.

That said, I know some people have some salt over how weak the codex updates are, but considering the codexes are being rushed out likely to allow the indexes to be discontinued and the game being moved in a new direction which will be interesting to see.

There is DEFINITELY a lack of some things in terms of lore and how small the model image sections are, but at the same time the books are functional, pretty closely balanced (at least compared to past editions but it's worth noting there are less outright crap choices these days with the only true crap choice being Grey Knights) and it gets us closer to having the game being fully functional instead of being the bare bones start the edition gave us.

Look, I get it that people want more every time their codex is updated, but with a release cycle this dense and the new codex updates being focused on getting full rulesets out over new kits means that "more" for most books will be coming later, not now.

Rule-wise SW was an extremely cautious codex that nerfed more than it buffed, list of major nerfs that I've found from a quick scan:
- Blizzard shield from 3++ to 4++
- Arjac's thunderhammer dealing D3 damage instead of flat 3 except against characters and monsters
- Herald's +1 to save doesn't apply to invul saves anymore
- Wolves went from 6 points to 8 points
- Grey Hunters can't take chainswords anymore
- Bjorn can't take twin lascannons, his best loadoutby far
- Fenrisian great axe now has a -1 to hit penalty and lost the +1 attack bonus

The wolves point increase is especially frustrating because marines are notoriously lacking in cheap chaff options and the wolves could have been a great answer to that issue.

There are also plenty of obvious design decision to curtail any potential for powerful combos:
- Wulfen dreadnoughts mysteriously lacking smoke launchers
- The Wulfen stone relic writing out a novel's worth of text just to make sure it can never stack with the curse of the wulfen buff
- Writing out a novel's worth of text to make sure a unit can never benefit from both curse of the wulfen buffs at the same turn, even though it's completely fluffy and sensible to do so
- Cloaked in Storm stratagem requiring a psychic power to go off successfully and cannot be used during an opponent's shooting phase
- Chooser of the Slain is a strictly worse version of an Eldar stratagem

My theory for the SW book is that it is the victim of GW aggressively reining back the potential power creep created by knights and dark eldar, resulting in an extremely safe and sanitized book where 'muh balance' is everything. SW has the potential to be an absolute monster for mono-marine lists (and it still is right now, that's how bad marines are by themselves). If that's the case I applaud GW's attempt but the genie is out of the bottle when you made dissy ravagers and 4 point guardsmen. Hopefully SW was written with the upcoming chapter approved and FAQ in mind so it has been adjusted in preparation for that.

Edit: Got a couple of points wrong here, skimmed the book too fast and jumped to conclusions

 Continuity wrote:
Rule-wise SW was an extremely cautious codex that nerfed more than it buffed, list of major nerfs that I've found from a quick scan:
- Blizzard shield from 3++ to 4++
- Arjac's thunderhammer dealing D3 damage instead of flat 3 except against characters and monsters
- Herald's +1 to save doesn't apply to invul saves anymore
- Wolves went from 6 points to 8 points
- Grey Hunters can't take chainswords anymore
- Bjorn can't take twin lascannons, his best loadout by far
- Fenrisian great axe now has a -1 to hit penalty and lost the +1 attack bonus

The wolves point increase is especially frustrating because marines are notoriously lacking in cheap chaff options and the wolves could have been a great answer to that issue.

There are also plenty of obvious design decision to curtail any potential for powerful combos:
- Wulfen dreadnoughts mysteriously lacking smoke launchers
- The Wulfen stone relic writing out a novel's worth of text just to make sure it can never stack with the curse of the wulfen buff
- Writing out a novel's worth of text to make sure a unit can never benefit from both curse of the wulfen buffs at the same turn, even though it's completely fluffy and sensible to do so
- Cloaked in Storm stratagem requiring a psychic power to go off successfully and cannot be used during an opponent's shooting phase
- Chooser of the Slain is a strictly worse version of an Eldar stratagem

My theory for the SW book is that it is the victim of GW aggressively reining back the potential power creep created by knights and dark eldar, resulting in an extremely safe and sanitized book where 'muh balance' is everything. SW has the potential to be an absolute monster for mono-marine lists (and it still is right now, that's how bad marines are by themselves). If that's the case I applaud GW's attempt but the genie is out of the bottle when you made dissy ravagers and 4 point guardsmen. Hopefully SW was written with the upcoming chapter approved and FAQ in mind so it has been adjusted in preparation for that.

Bjorn can still take twin lascannons.
Grey hunters can still take chainswords.
Arjac:s hammer was always like that.

 beir wrote:

 Continuity wrote:
Rule-wise SW was an extremely cautious codex that nerfed more than it buffed, list of major nerfs that I've found from a quick scan:
- Blizzard shield from 3++ to 4++
- Arjac's thunderhammer dealing D3 damage instead of flat 3 except against characters and monsters
- Herald's +1 to save doesn't apply to invul saves anymore
- Wolves went from 6 points to 8 points
- Grey Hunters can't take chainswords anymore
- Bjorn can't take twin lascannons, his best loadout by far
- Fenrisian great axe now has a -1 to hit penalty and lost the +1 attack bonus

The wolves point increase is especially frustrating because marines are notoriously lacking in cheap chaff options and the wolves could have been a great answer to that issue.

There are also plenty of obvious design decision to curtail any potential for powerful combos:
- Wulfen dreadnoughts mysteriously lacking smoke launchers
- The Wulfen stone relic writing out a novel's worth of text just to make sure it can never stack with the curse of the wulfen buff
- Writing out a novel's worth of text to make sure a unit can never benefit from both curse of the wulfen buffs at the same turn, even though it's completely fluffy and sensible to do so
- Cloaked in Storm stratagem requiring a psychic power to go off successfully and cannot be used during an opponent's shooting phase
- Chooser of the Slain is a strictly worse version of an Eldar stratagem

My theory for the SW book is that it is the victim of GW aggressively reining back the potential power creep created by knights and dark eldar, resulting in an extremely safe and sanitized book where 'muh balance' is everything. SW has the potential to be an absolute monster for mono-marine lists (and it still is right now, that's how bad marines are by themselves). If that's the case I applaud GW's attempt but the genie is out of the bottle when you made dissy ravagers and 4 point guardsmen. Hopefully SW was written with the upcoming chapter approved and FAQ in mind so it has been adjusted in preparation for that.

Bjorn can still take twin lascannons.
Grey hunters can still take chainswords.
Arjac:s hammer was always like that.

My mistake, somehow I completely missed those options on my first readthrough

Can Primaris Battle Leaders take Fenrisian Wolves as wargear or is that not a thing?

 Kanluwen wrote:
Can Primaris Battle Leaders take Fenrisian Wolves as wargear or is that not a thing?

Nope. Only Ragnar can do that.

- Chooser of the Slain is a strictly worse version of an Eldar stratagem

If by worse you mean different. The Eldar one requires you to choose a friendly <CRAFTWORLD> unit. The Space Wolf one only requires a friendly unit. 'Hello friendly Shadowsword, see captain Slamguinius who just arrived via deepstrike, remove him please."




Automatically Appended Next Post:

Nope. Only Ragnar can do that.

And his have 3 attacks each. The vicious beasts.

Justyn wrote:

If by worse you mean different. The Eldar one requires you to choose a friendly <CRAFTWORLD> unit. The Space Wolf one only requires a friendly unit. 'Hello friendly Shadowsword, see captain Slamguinius who just arrived via deepstrike, remove him please."

True, but given the flavour text on the stratagem, it seems likely this was not the intention and will probably be FAQed. It might not, but I wouldn't rush out right now and buy an army on this stratagem, at least not before the post-Codex-release quick-FAQ.

If you already have Space Wolves + Shadowsword/Castellan/whatever, it might be a fun way to annoy people this weekend, maybe next weekend if you're lucky and GW doesn't get around to the FAQ due to NOVA.

Sunny Side Up wrote:

Justyn wrote:

If by worse you mean different. The Eldar one requires you to choose a friendly <CRAFTWORLD> unit. The Space Wolf one only requires a friendly unit. 'Hello friendly Shadowsword, see captain Slamguinius who just arrived via deepstrike, remove him please."

True, but given the flavour text on the stratagem, it seems likely this was not the intention and will probably be FAQed. It might not, but I wouldn't rush out right now and buy an army on this stratagem, at least not before the post-Codex-release quick-FAQ.

If you already have Space Wolves + Shadowsword/Castellan/whatever, it might be a fun way to annoy people this weekend, maybe next weekend if you're lucky and GW doesn't get around to the FAQ due to NOVA.

I'm actually thinking this is working as intended, it's why it's such a nerfed form of Auspex Scan and whatever the Eldar one is because it's so much more open.

BrianDavion wrote:

I'm actually thinking this is working as intended, it's why it's such a nerfed form of Auspex Scan and whatever the Eldar one is because it's so much more open.

Yeahh, no. The flavour text clearly says the psyber-raven-slain-thing is alerting nearby space wolves units.

It's a deepstriking Magnus-Mortarion-thing all over again.

Sunny Side Up wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

I'm actually thinking this is working as intended, it's why it's such a nerfed form of Auspex Scan and whatever the Eldar one is because it's so much more open.

Yeahh, no. The flavour text clearly says the psyber-raven-slain-thing is alerting nearby space wolves units.

It's a deepstriking Magnus-Mortarion-thing all over again.

sure except it also requires the unit to be within 6 inches of the wolf preist. and given the fluff (the preist can see and hear through the psyber familers ears and eyes) it's clearly the preist warning the unit.

If this warns space wolves it's, frankly a gak stratigium because it's absolute crap compared to auspex scan

BrianDavion wrote:

Sunny Side Up wrote:

Justyn wrote:

If by worse you mean different. The Eldar one requires you to choose a friendly <CRAFTWORLD> unit. The Space Wolf one only requires a friendly unit. 'Hello friendly Shadowsword, see captain Slamguinius who just arrived via deepstrike, remove him please."

True, but given the flavour text on the stratagem, it seems likely this was not the intention and will probably be FAQed. It might not, but I wouldn't rush out right now and buy an army on this stratagem, at least not before the post-Codex-release quick-FAQ.

If you already have Space Wolves + Shadowsword/Castellan/whatever, it might be a fun way to annoy people this weekend, maybe next weekend if you're lucky and GW doesn't get around to the FAQ due to NOVA.

I'm actually thinking this is working as intended, it's why it's such a nerfed form of Auspex Scan and whatever the Eldar one is because it's so much more open.

You think it's a nerfed version of auspex scan? It's different yes but I'm not going to agree that spacewolfs are marines -1.

Seriously most of this thread sounds like the stuff your salty about is stuff that should never have been things in the first place
3++ dreadnaughts
+1 to invulnerable saves (hello 2++ deathstars)

They aren't marine -1 they are just inline with the rest of the marine codex's which leaves room for point drops or other marine wide changes to make them all playable instead of it being play your marines as marines + or loose.

Nah .. you could still unload a Repulsor worth of stuff into Cultists or use it on Long Fangs and even a Space Marine Superheavy.

It's probably about right and what the overpowered Eldar one should've been. It's still more flexible than Auspex scan in that you can set it up with a Rune Priest near a good shooty unit, but not game-changingly powerful as no single stratagem actually should be (but too many sadly are).