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So the rule about disembarking says units can disembark up to 3 inches from a transport and can’t be within 1 inch of another enemy model or that unit/model is destroyed.
What’s the consensus on flying transports that have a decent sized base, ie StormRaven, that death watch flyer or that spaces wolves one? do units disembark from the base or from the hull of the transport? and depending on that, am I able to surround the flyer and prevent disembarking?
I play BA, had a game against a buddy who runs space wolves- has their flyer with a unit of wulfen inside and grimnar on foot. Discussing after our game if this was even a possibility to surround his flyer - I charged it with a slam captain and took it out and his guys popped out. After the game, We were tripping ourselves out on where do we actually measure against for flyers when it comes to disembarking and I guess charges for that matter as well..
So the rule about disembarking says units can disembark up to 3 inches from a transport and can’t be within 1 inch of another enemy model or that unit/model is destroyed.
What’s the consensus on flying transports that have a decent sized base, ie StormRaven, that death watch flyer or that spaces wolves one? do units disembark from the base or from the hull of the transport? and depending on that, am I able to surround the flyer and prevent disembarking?
I play BA, had a game against a buddy who runs space wolves- has their flyer with a unit of wulfen inside and grimnar on foot. Discussing after our game if this was even a possibility to surround his flyer - I charged it with a slam captain and took it out and his guys popped out. After the game, We were tripping ourselves out on where do we actually measure against for flyers when it comes to disembarking and I guess charges for that matter as well..
If it has a base, all measurements are made to and from the base, end of discussion. The only exception is if it has a special rule saying otherwise (e.g. A T'au Devilfish), which the Stormraven does not. Remember you can still disembark if surrounded by only a single rank of 25mm base models in base-to-base contact.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2018/08/27 00:10:23
Malfurious wrote: What’s the consensus on flying transports that have a decent sized base, ie StormRaven, that death watch flyer or that spaces wolves one? do units disembark from the base or from the hull of the transport?
Read the unit's dataslate. It will tell you whether you measure from the hull or have a special rule for disembarking (otherwise you measure from the base). Where you measure from is where you measure for disembarking.
'It is a source of constant consternation that my opponents cannot correlate their innate inferiority with their inevitable defeat. It would seem that stupidity is as eternal as war.'
- Nemesor Zahndrekh of the Sautekh Dynasty Overlord of the Crownworld of Gidrim
Malfurious wrote: Make sense to me.. when shooting, measure to the hull, when assaulting measure to the base for these types of flyers?
All measurements are made to the base. Read the rules for measuring in the core rules. You do not measure to the hull under any circumstances for a Stormraven. You use the Hull for LOS purposes only.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/08/27 00:15:08
Malfurious wrote: Make sense to me.. when shooting, measure to the hull, when assaulting measure to the base for these types of flyers?
All measurements are made to the base. Read the rules for measuring in the core rules. You do not measure to the hull under any circumstances for a Stormraven. You use the Hull for LOS purposes only.
Thanks! I’ll refresh myself on the rules
So basically, if I’m able to surround a stormraven, wolf flyer, et all and able to destroy it in the assault phase, the models inside would be destroyed as they won’t be able to disembark without being more then 1 inch away from my models - assuming I have enough models to surround it
Malfurious wrote: Make sense to me.. when shooting, measure to the hull, when assaulting measure to the base for these types of flyers?
All measurements are made to the base. Read the rules for measuring in the core rules. You do not measure to the hull under any circumstances for a Stormraven. You use the Hull for LOS purposes only.
Thanks! I’ll refresh myself on the rules
So basically, if I’m able to surround a stormraven, wolf flyer, et all and able to destroy it in the assault phase, the models inside would be destroyed as they won’t be able to disembark without being more then 1 inch away from my models - assuming I have enough models to surround it
Yes-ish.
Disembark is "set-up"; not move, so the back edge of your surrounding model's bases have to all be within 1" of the 3" from edge of the transport's base. Example: you completely surround a transport's base with small-based models in a single layer, they destoy said transport;transported unit(s) may then set up-disembark anywhere that leaves a sliver of their base within 3" of the transport's base and not within 1" of your small based models(very doable).
This is my Rulebook. There are many Like it, but this one is mine. Without me, my rulebook is useless. Without my rulebook, I am useless.
Stop looking for buzz words and start reading the whole sentences.
Malfurious wrote: Make sense to me.. when shooting, measure to the hull, when assaulting measure to the base for these types of flyers?
All measurements are made to the base. Read the rules for measuring in the core rules. You do not measure to the hull under any circumstances for a Stormraven. You use the Hull for LOS purposes only.
Thanks! I’ll refresh myself on the rules
So basically, if I’m able to surround a stormraven, wolf flyer, et all and able to destroy it in the assault phase, the models inside would be destroyed as they won’t be able to disembark without being more then 1 inch away from my models - assuming I have enough models to surround it
No because the disembarking unit can be placed anywhere within 3" of the transport's hull/base. This means that they can be set up behind the unit in base contact with the transport, just so long as they're not within 1" of any enemy models.
'It is a source of constant consternation that my opponents cannot correlate their innate inferiority with their inevitable defeat. It would seem that stupidity is as eternal as war.'
- Nemesor Zahndrekh of the Sautekh Dynasty Overlord of the Crownworld of Gidrim
Malfurious wrote: Make sense to me.. when shooting, measure to the hull, when assaulting measure to the base for these types of flyers?
All measurements are made to the base. Read the rules for measuring in the core rules. You do not measure to the hull under any circumstances for a Stormraven. You use the Hull for LOS purposes only.
Thanks! I’ll refresh myself on the rules
So basically, if I’m able to surround a stormraven, wolf flyer, et all and able to destroy it in the assault phase, the models inside would be destroyed as they won’t be able to disembark without being more then 1 inch away from my models - assuming I have enough models to surround it
No because the disembarking unit can be placed anywhere within 3" of the transport's hull/base. This means that they can be set up behind the unit in base contact with the transport, just so long as they're not within 1" of any enemy models.
Not trying to be pedantic, I have most of my models on 32mm bases (approx 1.25 inches) so even if my opponent put his models at the extreme edge of the 3 inches and even if my guys are in base to base with said transport, there won't be any open space for disembarking and not be more than 1 inch away from my models - assuming he's also on 32mm bases, the 'farthest' he would be able to get from my models is 0.5 inches, thus destroyed, no? - All hypothetical but just trying to see if this would actually work in a game
1.25+1=2.25. That leaves you three quarters of an inch to place models so that they're within 3 inches of the transport.
'It is a source of constant consternation that my opponents cannot correlate their innate inferiority with their inevitable defeat. It would seem that stupidity is as eternal as war.'
- Nemesor Zahndrekh of the Sautekh Dynasty Overlord of the Crownworld of Gidrim
You can disembark on the first floor of a ruin, or any other terrain piece, if the transport has no base you measure anywhere from the hull.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ghaz wrote: 1.25+1=2.25. That leaves you three quarters of an inch to place models so that they're within 3 inches of the transport.
Which is not more than 1" away from enemy models.
When a unit disembarks, set it up on the battlefield so that all of
its models are within 3" of the transport and not within 1" of any
enemy models – any disembarking model that cannot be set up in
this way is slain.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/08/27 13:32:17
p5freak wrote: You can disembark on the first floor of a ruin, or any other terrain piece, if the transport has no base you measure anywhere from the hull.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ghaz wrote: 1.25+1=2.25. That leaves you three quarters of an inch to place models so that they're within 3 inches of the transport.
Which is not more than 1" away from enemy models.
When a unit disembarks, set it up on the battlefield so that all of its models are within 3" of the transport and not within 1" of any enemy models – any disembarking model that cannot be set up in this way is slain.
Sorry, but you're wrong. You have three quarters of an inch plus a very infinitesimal distance that it might as well be the same thing.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/08/27 13:41:12
'It is a source of constant consternation that my opponents cannot correlate their innate inferiority with their inevitable defeat. It would seem that stupidity is as eternal as war.'
- Nemesor Zahndrekh of the Sautekh Dynasty Overlord of the Crownworld of Gidrim
p5freak wrote: You can disembark on the first floor of a ruin, or any other terrain piece, if the transport has no base you measure anywhere from the hull.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ghaz wrote: 1.25+1=2.25. That leaves you three quarters of an inch to place models so that they're within 3 inches of the transport.
Which is not more than 1" away from enemy models.
When a unit disembarks, set it up on the battlefield so that all of
its models are within 3" of the transport and not within 1" of any
enemy models – any disembarking model that cannot be set up in
this way is slain.
Sorry, but you're wrong. You have three quarters of an inch plus a very infinitesimal distance that it might as well be the same thing.
What ? 0.75" is within 1". You cant disembark within 1" from enemy models.
For disembarking, models do not have to be wholly within the 3". The back edge of their base is enough. So to absolutely block a unit from getting out, you need to block over 2" completely around the vehicle for the unit inside to not be able to get out. If your bases are wholly withing 2" of the vehicle, that leaves a 1" gap between your models and the disembarking unit.
Or if the unit inside is rather large and cannot fit all it's models at the 3" mark (meaning some models would need to be "inside" the outer models). I cannot remember it that means the unit is destroyed or just the models that cannot deploy. EDIT: It's any model that cannot disembark that is destroyed, not the unit
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This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2018/08/27 14:16:36
Galef wrote: For disembarking, models do not have to be wholly within the 3". The back edge of their base is enough. So to absolutely block a unit from getting out, you need to block over 2" completely around the vehicle for the unit inside to not be able to get out. If your bases are wholly withing 2" of the vehicle, that leaves a 1" gap between your models and the disembarking unit.
Or if the unit inside is rather large and cannot fit all it's models at the 3" mark (meaning some models would need to be "inside" the outer models).
I cannot remember it that means the unit is destroyed or just the models that cannot deploy. EDIT: It's any model that cannot disembark that is destroyed, not the unit
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I thought the rules for disembarking say within 3 inches of the vehicle, to me that means there is a 3 inch bubble around the transport where models can be disembarked into. I'm not sure I can get behind having a fraction of the base inside the bubble with the other 99% outside, effectively giving the model/unit and extra 1 to 1.5 inches plus its general movement - my opinion, but I don't think that's in the spirit of the game
Malfurious wrote: I thought the rules for disembarking say within 3 inches of the vehicle, to me that means there is a 3 inch bubble around the transport where models can be disembarked into. I'm not sure I can get behind having a fraction of the base inside the bubble with the other 99% outside, effectively giving the model/unit and extra 1 to 1.5 inches plus its general movement - my opinion, but I don't think that's in the spirit of the game
Within and Wholly Within are defined game terms, they are clearly explained in the developers commentary. GW Did errata a few errors where they should have used 'wholly within' but disembarking transports wasn't one of them. Units getting out of transport effectively have 1 base diameter - .1mm 'additional' movement. I wind up walking folks through this pretty often when Wulfen hop out of a Stormfang...
As an example of 'blowing up a Rhino' assuming 32mm black legion based marines 1" from the Rhino and 1" apart they STILL leave just enough space to let the juicy Ultramarines inside get out. It's worse with 25mm bases, as 1" plus 25mm plus 1" is less than three so you can edge your base in directly opposite a single rank 25mm unit.
Galef wrote: For disembarking, models do not have to be wholly within the 3". The back edge of their base is enough. So to absolutely block a unit from getting out, you need to block over 2" completely around the vehicle for the unit inside to not be able to get out. If your bases are wholly withing 2" of the vehicle, that leaves a 1" gap between your models and the disembarking unit.
Or if the unit inside is rather large and cannot fit all it's models at the 3" mark (meaning some models would need to be "inside" the outer models).
I cannot remember it that means the unit is destroyed or just the models that cannot deploy. EDIT: It's any model that cannot disembark that is destroyed, not the unit
-
I thought the rules for disembarking say within 3 inches of the vehicle, to me that means there is a 3 inch bubble around the transport where models can be disembarked into. I'm not sure I can get behind having a fraction of the base inside the bubble with the other 99% outside, effectively giving the model/unit and extra 1 to 1.5 inches plus its general movement - my opinion, but I don't think that's in the spirit of the game
From the Warhammer 40,000 Main Rulebook FAQ:
Q: Can you clarify what the difference is between ‘wholly within’ and ‘within’ for rules purposes?
A: If a rule says it affects units/models that are ‘wholly within’ then it only applies if the entire unit/model is within. If it just says ‘within’, however, then it applies so long as any part of the unit/model is within.
Having only a sliver of the disembarking unit's base within 3" is legal and is as intended, otherwise they would have used 'wholly within'.
'It is a source of constant consternation that my opponents cannot correlate their innate inferiority with their inevitable defeat. It would seem that stupidity is as eternal as war.'
- Nemesor Zahndrekh of the Sautekh Dynasty Overlord of the Crownworld of Gidrim
Malfurious wrote: I thought the rules for disembarking say within 3 inches of the vehicle, to me that means there is a 3 inch bubble around the transport where models can be disembarked into. I'm not sure I can get behind having a fraction of the base inside the bubble with the other 99% outside, effectively giving the model/unit and extra 1 to 1.5 inches plus its general movement - my opinion, but I don't think that's in the spirit of the game
Within and Wholly Within are defined game terms, they are clearly explained in the developers commentary. GW Did errata a few errors where they should have used 'wholly within' but disembarking transports wasn't one of them. Units getting out of transport effectively have 1 base diameter - .1mm 'additional' movement. I wind up walking folks through this pretty often when Wulfen hop out of a Stormfang...
As an example of 'blowing up a Rhino' assuming 32mm black legion based marines 1" from the Rhino and 1" apart they STILL leave just enough space to let the juicy Ultramarines inside get out. It's worse with 25mm bases, as 1" plus 25mm plus 1" is less than three so you can edge your base in directly opposite a single rank 25mm unit.
I'm glad you posted that diagram. I didn't think about the 1" within a vehicle that the assaulting unit can be in with my earlier comment. I was still assuming base contact. So it makes it more plausible to deny disembarking, but you have to be very careful with you charge/pile-in moves.
It also presents an interesting possibility that if you have more than 1 unit surrounding the vehicle, and you first unit kills it, even if the unit inside can disembark, it is likely an enemy that hasn't attacked yet could pile into the unit now.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/08/27 15:31:09
You have to disembark within 3" from the transport, not wholly within. Only a little bit from the base has to be within that 3" bubble around the transport. If the rule would say wholly within 3" the whole base of your model(s) would need to be within 3".
As an example of 'blowing up a Rhino' assuming 32mm black legion based marines 1" from the Rhino and 1" apart they STILL leave just enough space to let the juicy Ultramarines inside get out. It's worse with 25mm bases, as 1" plus 25mm plus 1" is less than three so you can edge your base in directly opposite a single rank 25mm unit.
Now fill the gaps between the black circles with more black circles that they touch each other, no more gaps. When thats the case no one can disembark.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/08/27 15:39:02
p5freak wrote: You have to disembark within 3" from the transport, not wholly within. Only a little bit from the base has to be within that 3" bubble around the transport. If the rule would say wholly within 3" the whole base of your model(s) would need to be within 3".
Now fill the gaps between the black circles with more black circles that they touch each other, no more gaps. When thats the case no one can disembark.
Yep, it's quite a large area you have to deny... Assuming the Rhino is 7" x 5"...
Spoiler:
And you could probably do it with fewer models, but here's 18 32mm models, all but 1 could swing.
Spoiler:
It's a super fiddly process to work out and it's pretty tough (without other circumstances, like a rhino up against a board edge) to fully block a disembark, we tend to eyeball it. Needed the diagrams as several folks didn't quite grasp how much table space they had to cover to block emergency evacuation.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/08/27 16:03:14
Also, keep in mind the additional tricks that come in to play when using the transport hull for measurement. For instance a wave serpent can disembark to the second or even third floor of a ruin that might be 2.75 inches away from the top of the rear of the model even if it is completely surrounded on the ground. (learned this watching a tournament)
