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 Karhedron wrote:
For my money, the best moment for avoiding the Heresy going totally pear-shaped would have been after Nikea. Magnus had revealed that he knew about the Webway. He was also in a serious funk. It would have been the perfect opportunity for the Emperor to take him back to Terra and show him the future.

This would have prevented him from later trashing the project. It would have kept the 1K Sons on side and prevented the losses the Wolves suffered in the early part of the Heresy. It would also have freed up the Emperor to confront Horus before he got his power-up on Molech.

Most importantly, it would have preserved the Webway project which was always the end-game of the whole Great Crusade.

But Magnus was in the bad-boy corner. You don't give treats to naughty boys in the bad-boy corner.

The Emperor most likely didn't want Magnus to see his future of being a slave on the Golden Throne. He was probably the Primarch that was intended to experience the worst, most tortured fate in the Emperor's "Grand Design", and would have rebelled even worse if he had known.

The Emperor was a monster far before the Great Crusade ever began, for considering "mistakes".

 AegisGrimm wrote:
The Emperor most likely didn't want Magnus to see his future of being a slave on the Golden Throne. He was probably the Primarch that was intended to experience the worst, most tortured fate in the Emperor's "Grand Design", and would have rebelled even worse if he had known.

The Emperor was a monster far before the Great Crusade ever began, for considering "mistakes".

Interesting point, do we have any fluff on point about how bad the throne would have been if everything wasn't smashed up. I remember reading a few snip its that it wouldn't have been that bad if it had been in good working order. I always assumed that it being a living hell was a combo of Magnus smashing up most of it and the Big E not being in the best of physical health when he got plugged in for the last time.

Controversial view.

The Emperor did not fail. Sure, things didn’t turn out according to best laid plans - but humanity, and His Imperium still ultimately endures. And it’s in a better shape post-Him On Earth against threats such as Necrons and Tyranids than had He not reunited mankind.

Consider how disparate and far flung humanity had become during Old Night. How can any species hope to fight the Tyranids with only a single system, let alone planet’s resources?

How much more would humanity have suffered from the Alien and the Chaos Gods had it not been standing as a more-or-less whole? Psykers would still be appearing in their growing numbers, and Old Night would only have gotten worse.

So no. The Emperor, categorically, did not fail.

I think it went wrong when the Emperor said "I have this idea Malcador, Primarchs!"

And Malcador didn't just put a bolt shell in the Emperors head right then and there.

 Togusa wrote:
I think it went wrong when the Emperor said "I have this idea Malcador, Primarchs!"

And Malcador didn't just put a bolt shell in the Emperors head right then and there.

intreastingly Constantine Valdor largely agrees that the Primarchs where a huuuge mistake. he sincerly wishes he hadn't argued stronger against them...

which come to think of it may be a sign of the REAL problem, the emperor tended to leave too many people in awe of him that he didn't have sufficant nay sayers who could tell him when he made a stupid move

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
The Emperor did not fail.

Finally! Someone around here who's not a heretic.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Controversial view.

The Emperor did not fail. Sure, things didn’t turn out according to best laid plans - but humanity, and His Imperium still ultimately endures. And it’s in a better shape post-Him On Earth against threats such as Necrons and Tyranids than had He not reunited mankind.

Consider how disparate and far flung humanity had become during Old Night. How can any species hope to fight the Tyranids with only a single system, let alone planet’s resources?

How much more would humanity have suffered from the Alien and the Chaos Gods had it not been standing as a more-or-less whole? Psykers would still be appearing in their growing numbers, and Old Night would only have gotten worse.

So no. The Emperor, categorically, did not fail.

The problem with that logic is that we don't know how good things could have been otherwise. For all we know without the Emperor humanity could have formed a multi species galactic empire with enough power and resources to just smash the Tyranids as they arrived.

But how?

The Legionnes Astartes were deployed on an Astra Militarum scale. Thousands of genetically enhanced super soldiers, with technology garnered from Old Earth, Mars and beyond. They were instrumental in forging The Imperium.

Consider the victory on Ullanor. To take down the Warboss took The Emperor and Horus. That was a boil that had to be lanced, lest the Orks spill forth into the wider galaxy. And we know what happens when one Ork Warboss does great things - the Waaagh just keeps on growing. And without any kind of centralised military structure, how do you fight that one planet at a time?

The Emperor was instrumental in mankind’s survival and renaissance. Even though things didn’t go as planned, it simply cannot be labelled as a failed or ultimately futile exercise. Without that initial unification, it would’ve been hundreds if not thousands of individual cultures slowly being eradicated, rather than a species standing more or less United, able to ship in untold millions of trained soldiers to protect its interest in thousands of war zones.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
But how?

The Legionnes Astartes were deployed on an Astra Militarum scale. Thousands of genetically enhanced super soldiers, with technology garnered from Old Earth, Mars and beyond. They were instrumental in forging The Imperium.

Consider the victory on Ullanor. To take down the Warboss took The Emperor and Horus. That was a boil that had to be lanced, lest the Orks spill forth into the wider galaxy. And we know what happens when one Ork Warboss does great things - the Waaagh just keeps on growing. And without any kind of centralised military structure, how do you fight that one planet at a time?

The Emperor was instrumental in mankind’s survival and renaissance. Even though things didn’t go as planned, it simply cannot be labelled as a failed or ultimately futile exercise. Without that initial unification, it would’ve been hundreds if not thousands of individual cultures slowly being eradicated, rather than a species standing more or less United, able to ship in untold millions of trained soldiers to protect its interest in thousands of war zones.

You have things like the Eldar, Interex and other human factions who were easily the equal of Marines. Putting them into an alliance would definitely work well with pure power mixed with foresight. It also has the long term benefit of humanity not being at war with literally everyone so there are far less war zones.

Ullanor was only an issue because of the Imperium. Orks infight constantly except the Imperium started killing all the Warbosses who would rival the Ullanor Orks. Even if that's not true then there's the simple solution of taking orbit and bombarding the Orks into oblivion.

But how else do you rally them to a single banner?

Sure, the Interex could force pacification, but not on a scale to match The Imperium, which leaves open the question of whether they could react in time.

The emperor created the Primarchs to be generals to lead the great crusade. He cannot be everywhere at once and the galaxy is a big place. Needing to have generals with autonomy is a reality of conquering a galaxy.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
The Emperor was instrumental in mankind’s survival and renaissance. Even though things didn’t go as planned, it simply cannot be labelled as a failed or ultimately futile exercise. Without that initial unification, it would’ve been hundreds if not thousands of individual cultures slowly being eradicated, rather than a species standing more or less United, able to ship in untold millions of trained soldiers to protect its interest in thousands of war zones.

Well, in reality, his plan was flawed from the outset, if he did not consider that Chaos couldn't (and shouldn't) be held completely at bey. Whether it was ignorance, or lack of hubris (or overabundance, perhaps), or just the megalomania to think he had the power to keep the Primarchs in the fold, it was a mistake. Chaos is a necessary and generative, no amount of Order can expunge it. Nor should it, as Chaos is needed for Order to not degenerate into outright tyranny. The Chaos that exists "now" is a result of the attempt to expunge it. Magnus and the other traitors are simply pawns in a much bigger struggle.

You are right to credit the Emperor for working to make things better. Others are correct though too, in faulting him for his lack of foresight, his seeming lack of consideration for what the consequences of inaction/apathy/ignorance could/would be. Just making the Primarchs is, most probably, a good idea. Failing to prepare them for their jobs, mentor them appropriately, shepherd them toward the maximally transcendental ideal was the actual mistake, as far as I can tell.

Consider, if you were to have children, but be remiss in raising them, teaching them, and guiding them, should you be very surprised if you would find one doing coke off a hooker's privy bits? If you fail to instantiate the correct moral fundiment, then you can't be all that surprised by subsequent immoral action. I'm not a "lore expert" but possible example would be what happened with the Word Bearers. They wanted a trancendental idea to worship, to strive for. The Emperor flatly denied them it. The trouble is, that "gods" can and did exist. Now, you could credit the Emperor with hubris here, denying the honorific of godhood for himself, but his proscription of Imperial Truth was correctly called out by Lorgar, et. al., as a falsity. Perhaps the Emperor was correct in thinking that Imperial Truth could be a transcendental ideal, but in the presence of the all-too-real Chaos "gods" it simply was not sufficient. Rationality isn't a god, nor is science. Since the Emperor didn't wish to be installed in the place of the godhead, so he allowed Chaos to be so.

TL;DR: The Emperor's plan was a post-modern nightmare and Chaos rightly proved it.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
But how else do you rally them to a single banner?

Sure, the Interex could force pacification, but not on a scale to match The Imperium, which leaves open the question of whether they could react in time.

Common enemies, stronger together than apart, mutual avoidance of needless conflict.

Yet they were rarely, if ever, in contact with each other.

w1zard wrote:
The emperor created the Primarchs to be generals to lead the great crusade. He cannot be everywhere at once and the galaxy is a big place. Needing to have generals with autonomy is a reality of conquering a galaxy.

There is zero need to have your generals be genetically modified frankensteinian super soldiers.

A generals role is not the be charging on the front lines, it is to oversee the war. If the Space Marines could not be relied upon to follow the orders of someone who is not on the same physical level as them, regardless of that persons tactical and strategic acumen, then they are awful soldiers.

ATCM, don't forget that the Primarchs were also designed as the genetic roots of the Space Marine Legions. Indeed, perhaps that was their primary purpose. The creation of the Primarchs is apparently in the once-and-never-again category of technosorcery. No Primarchs, no Legions.

 Manchu wrote:
ATCM, don't forget that the Primarchs were also designed as the genetic roots of the Space Marine Legions. Indeed, perhaps that was their primary purpose. The creation of the Primarchs is apparently in the once-and-never-again category of technosorcery. No Primarchs, no Legions.

Also keep in mind primarchs wheren't just superior physicaly. they where superior MENTALLY. A Primarch was an amazing general, way better then anyone else was capable of being

 Manchu wrote:
ATCM, don't forget that the Primarchs were also designed as the genetic roots of the Space Marine Legions. Indeed, perhaps that was their primary purpose. The creation of the Primarchs is apparently in the once-and-never-again category of technosorcery. No Primarchs, no Legions.

But that doesn't really make sense. If you could make the primarchs, you could make the space marines. If you could create the genetic code of the primarchs, then use that genetic code to make the space marines whilst the space marines are lesser than the primarch, then you could just make the space marine genetic code and make the space marines.

Also, having the primarchs, who are in command of their legion, being "related" to their legion also introduces the issues of the weaknesses of the primarchs being replicated throughout the legion without any alternative. A proud primarch, leading a legion of proud soldiers, has no check to the pride of the force which makes the entire legion susceptible to a tactic which targets that said pride (Imperial Fists being lured into the Iron Cage, for example). Get someone who is not proud in command and they can curb that weakness by providing an alternative viewpoint.


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BrianDavion wrote:

Also keep in mind primarchs wheren't just superior physicaly. they where superior MENTALLY. A Primarch was an amazing general, way better then anyone else was capable of being

But there's no reason you couldn't accomplish that same mental capability without also making them super strong etc.

And really, when have we ever been shown a tactical feat by a primarch that is not something that a human could come up with? From how they've actually been depicted, most west point graduates could outplay the primarchs in a wargames scenario given equal forces.

ATCM, I see the chaplain never set you down for that special talk. It seems to me that what the Emperor really wanted were great big giant legions of great big giant super soldiers. They did pretty great without Primarchs to lead them, sure. But the only way to get them in the first place was to "conjurneer" the Primarchs. I don't know how to respond to "that doesn't make sense" because we're talking about literal sorcery, from an in-universe POV, and as a matter of this being a fictional setting, it's a basic conceit of the universe. This statement of yours "if you can make primarchs then you can make space marines" is un-information. In fact, the Emperor could not make them any other way than he actually did. He tried other plans first, FWIW.

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

 Manchu wrote:
ATCM, don't forget that the Primarchs were also designed as the genetic roots of the Space Marine Legions. Indeed, perhaps that was their primary purpose. The creation of the Primarchs is apparently in the once-and-never-again category of technosorcery. No Primarchs, no Legions.

But that doesn't really make sense. If you could make the primarchs, you could make the space marines. If you could create the genetic code of the primarchs, then use that genetic code to make the space marines whilst the space marines are lesser than the primarch, then you could just make the space marine genetic code and make the space marines.


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BrianDavion wrote:

Also keep in mind primarchs wheren't just superior physicaly. they where superior MENTALLY. A Primarch was an amazing general, way better then anyone else was capable of being

But there's no reason you couldn't accomplish that same mental capability without also making them super strong etc.

And really, when have we ever been shown a tactical feat by a primarch that is not something that a human could come up with? From how they've actually been depicted, most west point graduates could outplay the primarchs in a wargames scenario given equal forces.

no reason no, but primarchs are also best if they're inspirational supermen. as for their ability to come up with things a human couldn't, of course we haven't. that's because of the "fictional military genius problem" to write a military genius when you aren't one is... rather difficult. (The only writer I've seen pull it off has been Timothy Zhan's Thrawn) our best source of the cognative superiority of the Primarchs are things like a scene in a book or two where Gulliman is reading multiple reports which would take the single attention of a person each, at speeds far faster then anyone else could read, and acting on/responding to, all that info. I can't recall seeing other primarchs definatly display this, but I think it's a fair bet they all have that level of processing power

Thrawn? Ha! I'll never get that one but that's a discussion for another Dakka Dakka subforum.

Regarding the Primarchs as leaders: OK bear with me here but what if the Emperor was basically stuck with them? We know that creating them was just barely within the scope of his admittedly awesome abilities and that he could not do it again even if he wanted to, which I'd argue he wouldn't. I've always suspected that he was only able to create them in the first place thanks to cutting a deal with Chaos. What did Chaos get out of it? "OK we will help you but we'll also scatter these dudes all over the place and then we get to play the fun game of seeing how they all turn out. Oh come on, WHAT'S THE WORST THAT COULD HAPPEN?" Typical Chaos lulz.

For his part, the Emperor might have been like, "Well, that introduces a lot of variables buuuuuuut if it's the only way ... plus I can get going on this Crusade in the meantime." Sure, now fast forward to reuniting with Horus. Now what? Well, from the Emperor's POV at the time, this kid didn't turn out too bad. Indeed, he has some pretty great qualities. Instead of just using him as a gene bank, like literally just a specimen in suspended animation, why not give him command over a legion of his genetic beneficiaries?

Precedent established.

I mean, some of these Primarchs aren't suited in any way, shape, or form to lead a discussion much less lead a hundred thou plus super soldiers and uncounted "mortals" across space. COUGH KONRAD COUGH. But once you make this big deal of reuniting Horus with the Luna Wolves then you have nineteen other hosts of super soldiers looking forward to the same Kodak Moment. And more or less it isn't not working. OK sure in two cases, it worked out so terribly that we aren't even allowed to talk about precisely how terrible it was. But then there's Sanguinius, Guilliman, Dorn, Vulcan, Russ, the Lion ... well let's not think too hard about it, it mostly works, at first, for a bit, until more than half of the time it completely breaks down. And oh wait Horus was the ring leader.

But the catastrophe goes directly to my point: having been forced to make Primarchs to get Space Marine Legions, and theoretically having them scattered to randomly become, rarely, super awesome and, less rarely, super fething terrible, and, in one case, seemingly super awesomest but ultimately the worst of all, the Emperor may never have wanted them to be leading his Great Crusade but, you know, that's just sort of the fallout of making deals with weird aliens you meet in the Warp.

And then the rest of history, for 10,000 years and going, is really just about that one lesson: "And that's why you don't make deals with Chaos."

BrianDavion wrote:

no reason no, but primarchs are also best if they're inspirational supermen. as for their ability to come up with things a human couldn't, of course we haven't. that's because of the "fictional military genius problem" to write a military genius when you aren't one is... rather difficult. (The only writer I've seen pull it off has been Timothy Zhan's Thrawn) our best source of the cognative superiority of the Primarchs are things like a scene in a book or two where Gulliman is reading multiple reports which would take the single attention of a person each, at speeds far faster then anyone else could read, and acting on/responding to, all that info. I can't recall seeing other primarchs definatly display this, but I think it's a fair bet they all have that level of processing power

Yes, the GW authors are (by and large) not military genii so writing characters who are is not easy.

Horus has a similar scene in "Galaxy in Flames" where he reads a book in a matter of seconds before deciding to execute the Remembrancer who wrote it.


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 Manchu wrote:

Regarding the Primarchs as leaders: OK bear with me here but what if the Emperor was basically stuck with them? We know that creating them was just barely within the scope of his admittedly awesome abilities and that he could not do it again even if he wanted to, which I'd argue he wouldn't. I've always suspected that he was only able to create them in the first place thanks to cutting a deal with Chaos. What did Chaos get out of it? "OK we will help you but we'll also scatter these dudes all over the place and then we get to play the fun game of seeing how they all turn out. Oh come on, WHAT'S THE WORST THAT COULD HAPPEN?" Typical Chaos lulz.

For his part, the Emperor might have been like, "Well, that introduces a lot of variables buuuuuuut if it's the only way ... plus I can get going on this Crusade in the meantime." Sure, now fast forward to reuniting with Horus. Now what? Well, from the Emperor's POV at the time, this kid didn't turn out too bad. Indeed, he has some pretty great qualities. Instead of just using him as a gene bank, like literally just a specimen in suspended animation, why not give him command over a legion of his genetic beneficiaries?

Various books shed light on this. The deal with Chaos supposedly saw them grant the Emperor power to create the Primarchs. The Emperor's side of the bargain was supposedly to spread knowledge of the Warp (this claim is made by a Daemon so should be treated as questionable). Instead the Emperor went about creating a secular Imperium. By denying Chaos the worship they needed (by squashing religion), the disorder they crave (by creating a stable pan-galactic empire) and stopping humans from needing to use the Warp by conquering the WebWay.

Chaos would have lost access to their food supply/playground. This was not something they wanted to happen so they struck back. They could not attacks the gestating Primarchs directly as the Emperor had carefully warded their incubation capsules. He had also warded the whole laboratory but Chaos managed to break in (possibly through the actions of Argel Tal) and scatter the Primarchs across the galaxy. Chaos has intended to send the primarchs to worlds intended to corrupt them. This is why their was some correlation between the Primarchs and the worlds they landed on. This was not entirely successful though and Lorgar claims at one point that at least some Primarchs ended up in the wrong places.

The Emperor claims in MoM that he always intended to use the Primarchs as generals as it would not have been possible to conduct the Great Crusade in the timeframe the Emperor needed without them. After they had been scattered by Chaos, he considered destroying them but decided it was better to take the risk of using them as per the original plan, even if they had been damaged by Chaos's interference. When examining Angron, he says something along the lines of a damaged Primarch being better than no Primarch. They were always intended to be more than gene banks.

I would say it all went wrong when the eldars took an evolusionistic turn to not keep themselves i check.

For the emperor it comes down to him being bad at delegating responsabilaty and keeping every that needs to be in the loop. He knows the end game is defeating chaos, so that is what he is preparing for. Perhaps others as well like Necrons, Orks and some potensial theoretical threat like the tyranids. Much like Tony Stark makes ultron to beat Thanos in the mcu the emperor makes primarchs to help him with the next big push. But it backfires.

 Karhedron wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

no reason no, but primarchs are also best if they're inspirational supermen. as for their ability to come up with things a human couldn't, of course we haven't. that's because of the "fictional military genius problem" to write a military genius when you aren't one is... rather difficult. (The only writer I've seen pull it off has been Timothy Zhan's Thrawn) our best source of the cognative superiority of the Primarchs are things like a scene in a book or two where Gulliman is reading multiple reports which would take the single attention of a person each, at speeds far faster then anyone else could read, and acting on/responding to, all that info. I can't recall seeing other primarchs definatly display this, but I think it's a fair bet they all have that level of processing power

Yes, the GW authors are (by and large) not military genii so writing characters who are is not easy.

Horus has a similar scene in "Galaxy in Flames" where he reads a book in a matter of seconds before deciding to execute the Remembrancer who wrote it.

was that Karnsky? if so it was a Poem not a book.

The moment Chaos spirited away the Primarchs, the Emperor's downfall was started. Two of his children were gone early on, and then half of the others fall to personality faults that were seeded by their chaos-chosen homeworlds.

Magnus breaks the webway project trying to prove that his predilection to sorcery is the superior philosophy to his brothers.

Kruz and Angron are weak by the time CHaos comes knockin' being driven half-mad by the legacy of thier upbringing.

Lorgar's childhood sets him up as the perfect Chaos patsy.

The spiriting away of the Primarchs was brilliant. Minor personality traits tat were supposed to be tempered by the Emperor became full-fledged psychosis by the time he reclaims them. Even the 'loyal' primarchs are less effective - Dorn is terribly inflexible, Sangiounus is obsessed with the taint in his genecode, and Russ 's self-control is all but gone. Even Gulliman has a tendency to over-confidence and aggrandizement

Believing that humanity could be united.

BrianDavion wrote:

 Togusa wrote:
I think it went wrong when the Emperor said "I have this idea Malcador, Primarchs!"

And Malcador didn't just put a bolt shell in the Emperors head right then and there.

intreastingly Constantine Valdor largely agrees that the Primarchs where a huuuge mistake. he sincerly wishes he hadn't argued stronger against them...

which come to think of it may be a sign of the REAL problem, the emperor tended to leave too many people in awe of him that he didn't have sufficant nay sayers who could tell him when he made a stupid move

What I find more interesting, is that with all the warp trickery, the Emperor of Man never stopped to question his own existence. He just took it as a given that those shamans were doing something good by creating him. But how would we know that he wasn't, himself, a big Chaos ploy from the beginning to direct man down this path of ruin? I still maintain that the worst part of 40K lore is this ridiculous notion of "you can't be friends with the xenos." In reality I don't care how many untold billions of humans there are. When a race like the eldar has guns that literally shoot sun beams, you will be absolutely annihilated by just a handful of their troops.

To paraphrase, I'm saying I'd like it if it were more like Sigmar, where the xenos sometimes could work with the Imperium without the idiotic inquisition coming in and pooping all over the house while screaming "Mah Emperor!"

 Togusa wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 Togusa wrote:
I think it went wrong when the Emperor said "I have this idea Malcador, Primarchs!"

And Malcador didn't just put a bolt shell in the Emperors head right then and there.

intreastingly Constantine Valdor largely agrees that the Primarchs where a huuuge mistake. he sincerly wishes he hadn't argued stronger against them...

which come to think of it may be a sign of the REAL problem, the emperor tended to leave too many people in awe of him that he didn't have sufficant nay sayers who could tell him when he made a stupid move

What I find more interesting, is that with all the warp trickery, the Emperor of Man never stopped to question his own existence. He just took it as a given that those shamans were doing something good by creating him. But how would we know that he wasn't, himself, a big Chaos ploy from the beginning to direct man down this path of ruin? I still maintain that the worst part of 40K lore is this ridiculous notion of "you can't be friends with the xenos." In reality I don't care how many untold billions of humans there are. When a race like the eldar has guns that literally shoot sun beams, you will be absolutely annihilated by just a handful of their troops.

To paraphrase, I'm saying I'd like it if it were more like Sigmar, where the xenos sometimes could work with the Imperium without the idiotic inquisition coming in and pooping all over the house while screaming "Mah Emperor!"

we've never once gotten inside the Emperor's head, for all we know he grapples with the question of existance intently. but a man in a position like the Emperor's CANNOT afford to let that doubt show

BrianDavion wrote:

 Karhedron wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

no reason no, but primarchs are also best if they're inspirational supermen. as for their ability to come up with things a human couldn't, of course we haven't. that's because of the "fictional military genius problem" to write a military genius when you aren't one is... rather difficult. (The only writer I've seen pull it off has been Timothy Zhan's Thrawn) our best source of the cognative superiority of the Primarchs are things like a scene in a book or two where Gulliman is reading multiple reports which would take the single attention of a person each, at speeds far faster then anyone else could read, and acting on/responding to, all that info. I can't recall seeing other primarchs definatly display this, but I think it's a fair bet they all have that level of processing power

Yes, the GW authors are (by and large) not military genii so writing characters who are is not easy.

Horus has a similar scene in "Galaxy in Flames" where he reads a book in a matter of seconds before deciding to execute the Remembrancer who wrote it.

was that Karnsky? if so it was a Poem not a book.

No, Petronella Vivar. She was working on Horus' autobiography and included his "deathbed confessions" after he was wounded on Davin. Horus decided that those thoughts belonged only in his head and no one else's.