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 Xenomancers wrote:
I dont understand the issue with CP regen. The issue is armies that can easily gain 3 batallions or brigade + plus battalion. Plus have regen (because it scales with base CP) Fix base exp and you fix CP regen.

That is literally 1 army. It's Imperial guard lol.

I imagine you mean other than the IG+BA unlimited CP combo?

 Xenomancers wrote:
I dont understand the issue with CP regen. The issue is armies that can easily gain 3 batallions or brigade + plus battalion. Plus have regen (because it scales with base CP) Fix base exp and you fix CP regen.

That is literally 1 army. It's Imperial guard lol.

you can tell they're a problem because 3 battalions/brigade + battalion Imperial Guard lists that won the...

oh wait. Usually it's a minimum brigade of IG, give or take less than a hundred points, fuelling a Super Heavy Auxiliary detachment and a BN of BA.

 Xenomancers wrote:
I dont understand the issue with CP regen. The issue is armies that can easily gain 3 batallions or brigade + plus battalion. Plus have regen (because it scales with base CP) Fix base exp and you fix CP regen.

That is literally 1 army. It's Imperial guard lol.

The issue is that soup can combine there CP farms across factions (like what we saw at nova) to create an almost infinite CP pool to funnel into 1 unit such as a knight. Even if you weaken this it still gives a huge and IMO unfair advantage over any codex that cannot soup. It also limits list diversity as you will always obviously take the CP regeneration

Asmodios wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
I dont understand the issue with CP regen. The issue is armies that can easily gain 3 batallions or brigade + plus battalion. Plus have regen (because it scales with base CP) Fix base exp and you fix CP regen.

That is literally 1 army. It's Imperial guard lol.

The issue is that soup can combine there CP farms across factions (like what we saw at nova) to create an almost infinite CP pool to funnel into 1 unit such as a knight. Even if you weaken this it still gives a huge and IMO unfair advantage over any codex that cannot soup. It also limits list diversity as you will always obviously take the CP regeneration

True. I think it would be the best if they just got rid of the CP regen altogether.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
I dont understand the issue with CP regen. The issue is armies that can easily gain 3 batallions or brigade + plus battalion. Plus have regen (because it scales with base CP) Fix base exp and you fix CP regen.

That is literally 1 army. It's Imperial guard lol.

you can tell they're a problem because 3 battalions/brigade + battalion Imperial Guard lists that won the...

oh wait. Usually it's a minimum brigade of IG, give or take less than a hundred points, fuelling a Super Heavy Auxiliary detachment and a BN of BA.

The concept of a "min brigade" is kind of idiotic. It is at a minumum 18 units. Most my armies don't even have 18 drops. The fact that you can do a IG brigade for it's cost is where the joke is.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Asmodios wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
I dont understand the issue with CP regen. The issue is armies that can easily gain 3 batallions or brigade + plus battalion. Plus have regen (because it scales with base CP) Fix base exp and you fix CP regen.

That is literally 1 army. It's Imperial guard lol.

The issue is that soup can combine there CP farms across factions (like what we saw at nova) to create an almost infinite CP pool to funnel into 1 unit such as a knight. Even if you weaken this it still gives a huge and IMO unfair advantage over any codex that cannot soup. It also limits list diversity as you will always obviously take the CP regeneration

The BA Captain also have a regen mechanic?

 Xenomancers wrote:
I dont understand the issue with CP regen. The issue is armies that can easily gain 3 batallions or brigade + plus battalion. Plus have regen (because it scales with base CP) Fix base exp and you fix CP regen.

That is literally 1 army. It's Imperial guard lol.

Well, it depends on how far the overhaul to the CP system goes. Imagine you're getting 3CP for being battleforged, 1CP for all the "specialist" detachments,2CP for batallions and 4CP for a brigade. Also if you're a mono army you get an additional 7CP (obviously those numbers would have to be balanced through playtesting) You'd still need to balance individual units but the cheap spammable detachments would no longer really be an issue.

Edit: And obviously remove those CP regen abilities

 Crimson wrote:

Asmodios wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
I dont understand the issue with CP regen. The issue is armies that can easily gain 3 batallions or brigade + plus battalion. Plus have regen (because it scales with base CP) Fix base exp and you fix CP regen.

That is literally 1 army. It's Imperial guard lol.

The issue is that soup can combine there CP farms across factions (like what we saw at nova) to create an almost infinite CP pool to funnel into 1 unit such as a knight. Even if you weaken this it still gives a huge and IMO unfair advantage over any codex that cannot soup. It also limits list diversity as you will always obviously take the CP regeneration

True. I think it would be the best if they just got rid of the CP regen altogether.

The issue with this, obviously, is that just straight removing relics or warlord traits from a codex with an FAQ really wouldn't sit well. Especially if it was something like a Chapter specific trait or relic. It's something that I don't see happening.

I guess the question I am asking is. Does anyone have a problem with CP regen (as an option for a warlord trait) if everyone starts with the same number of CP?

Primortus wrote:
I think people are making things a lot more difficult than they need to be.

1) Murder CP regen mechanics so it was like they never existed.

2) Give a CP bonus to armies that are entirely one faction

Limiting CP to the detachment that generated it just doesn't seem like a good idea, because it limits players in so many ways. Anything less than a battalion is useless because 1-3 CP isn't enough, so that detachment might as well not even use their stratagems.

Just give everyone fairly equal amounts of CP and then give mono-faction some bonuses.

The only reason I don't think Option 1 is the best option is due to the way they "fixed" the IK with the ability to hit people on the second floor with Chainsword and gauntlets. If you pull CP/Stratagems from the game, you should fix that somehow.

Darsath wrote:

The issue with this, obviously, is that just straight removing relics or warlord traits from a codex with an FAQ really wouldn't sit well. Especially if it was something like a Chapter specific trait or relic. It's something that I don't see happening.

They need to change them to do something completely different.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Xenomancers wrote:
I guess the question I am asking is. Does anyone have a problem with CP regen (as an option for a warlord trait) if everyone starts with the same number of CP?

Yes. Armies with regen will still get more, and soup pooling several regens insanely more.

 Xenomancers wrote:
I guess the question I am asking is. Does anyone have a problem with CP regen (as an option for a warlord trait) if everyone starts with the same number of CP?

Maybe I'm in the minority here, but yes. I still dislike the mechanic because it breaks up gameplay. At the beginning of 8th I liked it but it quickly turned into an annoyance for me, I have no idea how many people feel the same way on this one though

 Xenomancers wrote:
I guess the question I am asking is. Does anyone have a problem with CP regen (as an option for a warlord trait) if everyone starts with the same number of CP?

The CP regen issue that I think everyone hates is the combination of the IG 1 roll of a 5+ per CP spent strat, plus the 1 roll of a 5+ per strategem used BA relic, as it allows you to roll 1 more dice than you spent CP, and actually let's you gain CP throughout the game. If you do the math on how much CP you gain from this is it something like 10-20 a game, and it can really spike of you get lucky a few times in a row.

 Xenomancers wrote:
I guess the question I am asking is. Does anyone have a problem with CP regen (as an option for a warlord trait) if everyone starts with the same number of CP?

Yes because the only warlord trait you will see in every game for every army is the CP regen one...... If we all have the same pool why would we even need the random factor of regening them anyway..... id rather just increase the pool

Furthermore, considering that you can buy relics with CP it is crazy you can then generate CP with relics. It is a complete no-brainer choice. Want free CP? Yes please!

 Crimson wrote:

Asmodios wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
I dont understand the issue with CP regen. The issue is armies that can easily gain 3 batallions or brigade + plus battalion. Plus have regen (because it scales with base CP) Fix base exp and you fix CP regen.

That is literally 1 army. It's Imperial guard lol.

The issue is that soup can combine there CP farms across factions (like what we saw at nova) to create an almost infinite CP pool to funnel into 1 unit such as a knight. Even if you weaken this it still gives a huge and IMO unfair advantage over any codex that cannot soup. It also limits list diversity as you will always obviously take the CP regeneration

True. I think it would be the best if they just got rid of the CP regen altogether.

I think it might be interesting to have 5+ regen as a base rule for your Warlord being on the table.

 Crimson wrote:
Furthermore, considering that you can buy relics with CP it is crazy you can then generate CP with relics. It is a complete no-brainer choice. Want free CP? Yes please!

Yup, it makes it the obvious choice 100% of the time and thus makes lists less diverse and the game all around harder to balance. Take it out of the game and give underpowered codexes that need more CP...... more CP.

Asmodios wrote:

Yes because the only warlord trait you will see in every game for every army is the CP regen one...

Indeed. It is bad design if one trait is just flat out better than others.

Okay. So what do we replace the traits with? You realize everyone who has a CP regen trait is going to want something nice to replace it with.

Also - personally - I like my ultra marine trait - it's the only thing that makes me happy to play ultra marines over the other chapters - who have much cooler army traits and better stratagems.

It makes guilliman feel worth it too. Because I am usually bringing him as an ally and as my warlord. Personally - I think it's okay to have a trait like that on a 400 point model. It's just not okay to have a trait like that on a 30 point model.

I wouldn't oppose regen going away though to fix this mess. In the end I want a balanced game - that is the most important thing for me.

 Xenomancers wrote:
Okay. So what do we replace the traits with? You realize everyone who has a CP regen trait is going to want something nice to replace it with.

Extra aura or command range, extra commands, something like that. Different things for different armies.

 Xenomancers wrote:
Okay. So what do we replace the traits with? You realize everyone who has a CP regen trait is going to want something nice to replace it with.

Also - personally - I like my ultra marine trait - it's the only thing that makes me happy to play ultra marines over the other chapters - who have much cooler army traits and better stratagems.

It makes guilliman feel worth it too. Because I am usually bringing him as an ally and as my warlord. Personally - I think it's okay to have a trait like that on a 400 point model. It's just not okay to have a trait like that on a 30 point model.

I wouldn't oppose regen going away though to fix this mess. In the end I want a balanced game - that is the most important thing for me.

Just use any other trait in the book..... I haven't studied every codex but if there is one with only like 2 traits just add some more with the removal

Reemule wrote:

Primortus wrote:
I think people are making things a lot more difficult than they need to be.

1) Murder CP regen mechanics so it was like they never existed.

2) Give a CP bonus to armies that are entirely one faction

Limiting CP to the detachment that generated it just doesn't seem like a good idea, because it limits players in so many ways. Anything less than a battalion is useless because 1-3 CP isn't enough, so that detachment might as well not even use their stratagems.

Just give everyone fairly equal amounts of CP and then give mono-faction some bonuses.

The only reason I don't think Option 1 is the best option is due to the way they "fixed" the IK with the ability to hit people on the second floor with Chainsword and gauntlets. If you pull CP/Stratagems from the game, you should fix that somehow.

What? I'm not suggesting they remove stratagems, I think they're a lot of fun. I'm suggesting they remove the ability to regenerate CP from the game entirely, like the thousand son Helm of the Third Eye, kurov's aquila or the grand strategist warlord trait. I think the imperial one is the real problem but in the interest of fairness I'd like to see them all disappear. Also I don't like feeling like no thought goes into the choice of my relics, Helm of the Third Eye is obviously so good you don;t even need to think about taking it. Same with Kurov's and Veritas Vitae

As for what these things should be replaced with, using Helm of the Third Eye as an example it could let you re-roll one die of your choice per phase/turn/battle whatever. It could also be something like Kairos' ability from 7th where you could make an opponent reroll a dice once per turn. That was fun lol.

Ultramarines would like to say thanks for throwing them under the bus.

The thing is no-one complaining about non IG super CP regen.
Seriously whats wrong with just removing grand strategist and Kurov's from IG as according to Guard players they "Have strategums not worth spending CP on" anyway?

Or just flat out replaced with +1CP or +D3CP at the start of the game. Not sure if 1 is too little or D3 too good but just replacing them across the board would be a simple task

Ice_can wrote:
Ultramarines would like to say thanks for throwing them under the bus.

The thing is no-one complaining about non IG super CP regen.
Seriously whats wrong with just removing grand strategist and Kurov's from IG as according to Guard players they "Have strategums not worth spending CP on" anyway?

Well and the do start more with anyone else also...

PiñaColada wrote:
Or just flat out replaced with +1CP or +D3CP at the start of the game. Not sure if 1 is too little or D3 too good but just replacing them across the board would be a simple task

oh yeah so different so not oh wait our 2 most charictors already do that and thanks for no having no warlord trait.

Ice_can wrote:

PiñaColada wrote:
Or just flat out replaced with +1CP or +D3CP at the start of the game. Not sure if 1 is too little or D3 too good but just replacing them across the board would be a simple task

oh yeah so different so not oh wait our 2 most charictors already do that and thanks for no having no warlord trait.

I'm sorry, not trying to be rude but I literally don't understand what that's supposed to mean

Ice_can wrote:
Ultramarines would like to say thanks for throwing them under the bus.

The thing is no-one complaining about non IG super CP regen.
Seriously whats wrong with just removing grand strategist and Kurov's from IG as according to Guard players they "Have strategums not worth spending CP on" anyway?

I mean if guard lost it I'm all for it.... I think in the long run it
1.removes list diversity
2.makes balance harder
3.Just a poor mechanic that doesn't add anything to the game.
So id like to see it removed altogether. But like I said im all down for guard not having it first or even being the only army that doesn't if need be.

Asmodios wrote:

Ice_can wrote:
Ultramarines would like to say thanks for throwing them under the bus.

The thing is no-one complaining about non IG super CP regen.
Seriously whats wrong with just removing grand strategist and Kurov's from IG as according to Guard players they "Have strategums not worth spending CP on" anyway?

I mean if guard lost it I'm all for it.... I think in the long run it
1.removes list diversity
2.makes balance harder
3.Just a poor mechanic that doesn't add anything to the game.
So id like to see it removed altogether. But like I said im all down for guard not having it first or even being the only army that doesn't if need be.

Knight's already have no in codex regenerate method so you'd be the second faction or later to go without.
Having fixed warlord traits for named charictors tied to subfaction limits choice etc but GW already did that.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

PiñaColada wrote:

Ice_can wrote:

PiñaColada wrote:
Or just flat out replaced with +1CP or +D3CP at the start of the game. Not sure if 1 is too little or D3 too good but just replacing them across the board would be a simple task

oh yeah so different so not oh wait our 2 most charictors already do that and thanks for no having no warlord trait.

I'm sorry, not trying to be rude but I literally don't understand what that's supposed to mean

Calgar and Guilliman already do this.

PiñaColada wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
I dont understand the issue with CP regen. The issue is armies that can easily gain 3 batallions or brigade + plus battalion. Plus have regen (because it scales with base CP) Fix base exp and you fix CP regen.

That is literally 1 army. It's Imperial guard lol.

Well, it depends on how far the overhaul to the CP system goes. Imagine you're getting 3CP for being battleforged, 1CP for all the "specialist" detachments,2CP for batallions and 4CP for a brigade. Also if you're a mono army you get an additional 7CP (obviously those numbers would have to be balanced through playtesting) You'd still need to balance individual units but the cheap spammable detachments would no longer really be an issue.

Edit: And obviously remove those CP regen abilities

Ok, if I have a good army with good stratagems this is good. But what if my army has bad stratagems? It streamlines the meta in to who ever has the best basic army, which limits the number of lists even more. A BA player won't be happy to hear about the changes, considering they had their alfa strike nerfed.

For myself this does not fix anything. A GK army won't be able to get the "free" CP for specialists detachment, and a brigada or battalion of GK makes no sense at all, it costs too much.

The majority of CWE special characters actually *do* get no Warlord trait. It doesn't mean CWE doesn't get taken (although those SCs don't get taken).