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They (Skyweavers) die to blobs not Smash Captain, they need to get within 24" to shoot, whats within 24" of the knight? 100 bodies.

Yeah, as ugly as the IoM Soup it was, it *is* exciting that it needed a variety of tools to get the job done, not just spamming one.

Bharring wrote:
"They actaully win more than imperial soup too."
7/11 IoM soup.
1/11 DE soup w/Ynnari
1/11 DE soup w/CWE
1/11 DE soup w/Harlies

More than twice as many IoM in the top 10 than Eldar, so what's your basis for 'win more than Imperial Soup'?

"You know how badly those units wreck a castelan?"
Not well enough at Nova, apparently.

"PLUS they don't care about smash feth."
Then why did they all lose to it?

This tournament is a small peice of the puzzle. Ynnari and aliotoc are still the lists to beat. IMO. Castellan and smash feth does really not do that great to against eldar.

It just surprises me, considering there was only one small Ynnari detatchment and one small Alaitoc detatchment in the top 10. I'd think DE would be above either of those right now. And most stats I've seen support that.

 vipoid wrote:
Regarding Imperial Guard, what if, rather than raising the cost of Infantry, we instead brought back Platoons?

Now, suddenly, you can't just fill a troop slot with a single Infantry Squad. Instead, you'd need to have 2 Infantry squads and a Platoon Commander for each troop slot.

I suspect you could even get away with 3pt Conscripts in this instance - since they couldn't be used to fill troop slots themselves (you'd take them as an extra in a Platoon), and you'd need the aforementioned 2 Infantry Squads and a Platoon Commander just to unlock 1 unit of them.

Infantry need to go up in price, they are simply too cost effective comparatively. It has been shown time and time again. 3pt Conscripts is a madness we have seen before and I'd rather not revisit.

I think the point is that if IG were forced to bring 60 boys instead of 30 for a Battalion, or 120 instead of 60 for a Brigade, that would water down the CP provided by IG, and leave less room for soup.

I'm sure it'd help. Not sure it'd help enough.

 Amishprn86 wrote:
They (Skyweavers) die to blobs not Smash Captain, they need to get within 24" to shoot, whats within 24" of the knight? 100 bodies.

Ehh - prophets are super resilent but are the wrong choice agaisnt this castellan list. Just standard Kabal + harlie shenanigans works best IMO. Lots of venoms / ravagers / night fighters + harlie bikes will murder this list.

Then why *didn't* it?

Bharring wrote:
It just surprises me, considering there was only one small Ynnari detatchment and one small Alaitoc detatchment in the top 10. I'd think DE would be above either of those right now. And most stats I've seen support that.

Lots of weird things about this tournament...like a scout spam army coming in 15th overall...Plus 6 of the top 11 running almost the exact same list.

Bharring wrote:
I think the point is that if IG were forced to bring 60 boys instead of 30 for a Battalion, or 120 instead of 60 for a Brigade, that would water down the CP provided by IG, and leave less room for soup.

I'm sure it'd help. Not sure it'd help enough.

I'm sure a Guard player will be along shortly to tell you how that would kill mono guard and they are being victimised for soup etc etc.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Bharring wrote:
"They actaully win more than imperial soup too."
7/11 IoM soup.
1/11 DE soup w/Ynnari
1/11 DE soup w/CWE
1/11 DE soup w/Harlies

More than twice as many IoM in the top 10 than Eldar, so what's your basis for 'win more than Imperial Soup'?

"You know how badly those units wreck a castelan?"
Not well enough at Nova, apparently.

"PLUS they don't care about smash feth."
Then why did they all lose to it?

This tournament is a small peice of the puzzle. Ynnari and aliotoc are still the lists to beat. IMO. Castellan and smash feth does really not do that great to against eldar.

I'd have too confirm it, but i imagine there were a lot more IG/IK/BA lists in Nova than Ynarri lists, which makes it likely that they would have a better showing. Additionally, my understanding is that the IK/BA/IG combo actually counters the Ynnari list pretty hard.

JCD,
Shouldn't you expect the armies taken to be biased towards the stronger armies? Most players do pick an army they like. But most tourny players - especially the top-table contenders - have or can assemble a number of different armies and lists. So you'd expect the perceived OPness to be overrepresented.

And, if you assume the more skilled players' perceptions are more likley in line with the truth than random chance, that suggests the actual OPness would be overrepresented.

jcd386 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Bharring wrote:
"They actaully win more than imperial soup too."
7/11 IoM soup.
1/11 DE soup w/Ynnari
1/11 DE soup w/CWE
1/11 DE soup w/Harlies

More than twice as many IoM in the top 10 than Eldar, so what's your basis for 'win more than Imperial Soup'?

"You know how badly those units wreck a castelan?"
Not well enough at Nova, apparently.

"PLUS they don't care about smash feth."
Then why did they all lose to it?

This tournament is a small peice of the puzzle. Ynnari and aliotoc are still the lists to beat. IMO. Castellan and smash feth does really not do that great to against eldar.

I'd have too confirm it, but i imagine there were a lot more IG/IK/BA lists in Nova than Ynarri lists, which makes it likely that they would have a better showing. Additionally, my understanding is that the IK/BA/IG combo actually counters the Ynnari list pretty hard.

A huge part of it is that, the IK/IG/BA list is much easier to operate than the Ynnari lists, Ynnari can break you if you move just 3-4" in the wrong direction, when it works it works great, when it doesnt you lose a lot.

Bharring wrote:
JCD,
Shouldn't you expect the armies taken to be biased towards the stronger armies? Most players do pick an army they like. But most tourny players - especially the top-table contenders - have or can assemble a number of different armies and lists. So you'd expect the perceived OPness to be overrepresented.

And, if you assume the more skilled players' perceptions are more likley in line with the truth than random chance, that suggests the actual OPness would be overrepresented.

I mean, i totally agree that the IK/BA/IG combo is more overpowered than Ynnari. The sum of it's parts makes it extremely hard to deal with. It is also fairly easy to play, and a bit of a noob stomper. The fact that it also hard counters Ynnari (Nick has said in interviews he auto loses if he goes second) doesn't hurt.

I do think other things go into what lists we see, such as model collections, price points, and so on. Even with borrowed models, the IK/BA/IG list is probably a lot easy to get together.

Someone please mathhammer the effectiveness of Shining Spears against a doomed, jinxed, but fully stratagem-buffed Castellan. I'm curious now. It doesn't seem very effective to me but I could be wrong.

barboggo wrote:
Someone please mathhammer the effectiveness of Shining Spears against a doomed, jinxed, but fully stratagem-buffed Castellan. I'm curious now. It doesn't seem very effective to me but I could be wrong.

SS are more of a Anti-infanty unit, most of its guns are S4 4 shots, it has 1 6" range lance for each rider that only does 2D, if all 9 riders hits, wounds, and no saves (tho its a 4++, -1 means its 5++) to shoot its 18 damage max. You will have to Soul burst just to get in range so there is no way to double shoot. With the extra Shuriken shots you can do 4 damage with all re-rolls/jink.

barboggo wrote:
Someone please mathhammer the effectiveness of Shining Spears against a doomed, jinxed, but fully stratagem-buffed Castellan. I'm curious now. It doesn't seem very effective to me but I could be wrong.

Yeah with guide, doom, and jinx it's only about 9-10 damage on average. Not really the ideal target for that unit, though it's probably worth noting that is similar damage to what 20 unbuffed BS3+ las cannons do to the same knight (without doom or jinx on it) so it's still not like it's terrible.

jcd386 wrote:

barboggo wrote:
Someone please mathhammer the effectiveness of Shining Spears against a doomed, jinxed, but fully stratagem-buffed Castellan. I'm curious now. It doesn't seem very effective to me but I could be wrong.

Yeah with guide, doom, and jinx it's only about 9-10 damage on average. Not really the ideal target for that unit, though it's probably worth noting that is similar damage to what 20 unbuffed BS3+ las cannons do to the same knight (without doom or jinx on it) so it's still not like it's terrible.

That's awful. They'd get obliterated on the backswing. You could shoot another 20 Dark Reapers at it and still not kill it.

Thats b.c SS's are Anti-infantry..... how many times do we have to say this lol.

I saw your comment the first time. Why is there talk in this thread about Ynnari winning against Castellans? The usual list has no tools for it. If anything Haywire spam is the way to go.

barboggo wrote:
I saw your comment the first time. Why is there talk in this thread about Ynnari winning against Castellans? The usual list has no tools for it. If anything Haywire spam is the way to go.

B.c why ask for math with anti-infantry elite unit to kill a knight? Why not instead ask how many HWC's does it take with Doom/Jinx to kill a knight?

I was genuinely curious about SS math because people here seem to think Ynnari does well against them?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Specifically Xenomancer btw.

Oh... i dont read what he says most the time lol, my bad for saying something to you about it then.

jcd386 wrote:

barboggo wrote:
Someone please mathhammer the effectiveness of Shining Spears against a doomed, jinxed, but fully stratagem-buffed Castellan. I'm curious now. It doesn't seem very effective to me but I could be wrong.

Yeah with guide, doom, and jinx it's only about 9-10 damage on average. Not really the ideal target for that unit, though it's probably worth noting that is similar damage to what 20 unbuffed BS3+ las cannons do to the same knight (without doom or jinx on it) so it's still not like it's terrible.

That is shooting....In CC they do a lot more damage.
They do about 9 wounds in CC for 18 damage - plus their shooting 3.5 damage from cats and about 4 from lances. It nearly 1 shots it.

12 harli bikes do about 20 mortal wounds to the sucker. Then if they all manage to charge it Then they do about 8 damage to it. 1 shotting it.


Both these units have double moves so reaching the Castellan is usually not going to be an issue. Both about average a kill on the castellan with the right support.

It is true the smash fether can mess up some spears in CC - but harlie bikers are a different story - they can go to 3++ and -1 to hit in CC for a stratagem and a psychic power. Lets say Smash fether charges these guys.

9 attacks hitting on 4's rerolling 1's. Will Average you between 4-5 hits. You will wound 4-5 times. They will save 3-4 times. So you kil 1-2 bikes. Not really that impressive. He fights again and kills 1-2 more. Yeah that hurts a bit but then he is just wrecked. If he only kills 2-3 bikes - he barely made his points back and you spent 5 CP. This can't happen till turn 2 though - unless they deploy him on the feild - in which case there is a good chance the castellan is already dead.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Amishprn86 wrote:
Oh... i dont read what he says most the time lol, my bad for saying something to you about it then.

Can you not math dude?

Do you know Doom and shinning spears kills just about everything in the game in 1 round that isn't a mega titan? NOR can a castellan fall back through biker units ether. They could even not shoot at him and just use him as bunker. This is what smart eldar players do - use your titan against you. Heck - this is the kind of stuff that goes on at my local store - I'd really expect the top players in the game to know this.

Plus there is the option to just hide in the infantry squads by surrounding a unit you didn't charge and pile into them. Protected and fortuned spears don't give a flying flip about taking 90 or so str 4 attacks hitting them on 5's with -1 to hit strat and a 2+ save. That doesn't even average a kill on the spears. Plus so what if you lose 1.

You will never get them to the knight, you must soulburst just to make it to the knight and kill the 2-3 units bubble wrapping him, there is no way to get to it vs anyone thats not a noob.

SS cant kill it, SS cant get to it. GG

 Amishprn86 wrote:
You will never get them to the knight, you must soulburst just to make it to the knight and kill the 2-3 units bubble wrapping him, there is no way to get to it vs anyone thats not a noob.

SS cant kill it, SS cant get to it. GG

Yeah it's unlikely that they will fit with 60 infantry in the way - they can fly over them though if there is a hole. I was just showing what they can do in 1 turn. Which is kill the knight completely.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:
You will never get them to the knight, you must soulburst just to make it to the knight and kill the 2-3 units bubble wrapping him, there is no way to get to it vs anyone thats not a noob.

SS cant kill it, SS cant get to it. GG

Yeah it's unlikely that they will fit with 60 infantry in the way - they can fly over them though if there is a hole. I was just showing what they can do in 1 turn. Which is kill the knight completely.

its not 60 tho, its 100+, sometimes more.

6x 10man, 3 heavy teams of 3 mortars, 2 Platoon commanders and priest, 3x5 scouts, thats 105 models minimum. And this is the winning list, some other lists had more in them, some had 120+ models.

So tell me again that 100 models is easy to kill turn 1 to get to the knight and be in combat with it while shooting it 1st to stand a chance of killing it with all max buffs and a Soulburst?

Edit: Again, if they know they have SS, they will protect a bit more, stay out of 7", stay bubble wrap in layers so not to fly over as easy, etc.. with 6 10man squads, 3 5mans, and some odds and ends guys, its not hard to stop a 9 man unit from moving to much before they can be in a good position.

barboggo wrote:
I was genuinely curious about SS math because people here seem to think Ynnari does well against them?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Specifically Xenomancer btw.

No, Ynarri specifically do poorly against them, which is why Nick brought such a different list to Nova.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:
You will never get them to the knight, you must soulburst just to make it to the knight and kill the 2-3 units bubble wrapping him, there is no way to get to it vs anyone thats not a noob.

SS cant kill it, SS cant get to it. GG

Yeah it's unlikely that they will fit with 60 infantry in the way - they can fly over them though if there is a hole. I was just showing what they can do in 1 turn. Which is kill the knight completely.

Yeah my bad I should have mentioned that was only shooting. I find it sort of unlikely SS would even be able to get into charge range of a Castellan so I didn't think about their close combat.

barboggo wrote:
I was genuinely curious about SS math because people here seem to think Ynnari does well against them?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Specifically Xenomancer btw.

Haywire spam does about 20 wounds with 12 bikes. If you brought 18 you'd be able to reliable 1 shot a castellan. Those bikes kill 58 guardsmen a turn too if they are able to fight twice they will kill about 90 guardsmen. Assuming you use the +1 attack on the charge army trait. Also assuming you can reach that many. This is just their raw damage output.

Interesting. Makes me wonder if Ynnari/haywire has a chance at replacing the default reaper/SS list.