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 Amishprn86 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:
You will never get them to the knight, you must soulburst just to make it to the knight and kill the 2-3 units bubble wrapping him, there is no way to get to it vs anyone thats not a noob.

SS cant kill it, SS cant get to it. GG

Yeah it's unlikely that they will fit with 60 infantry in the way - they can fly over them though if there is a hole. I was just showing what they can do in 1 turn. Which is kill the knight completely.

its not 60 tho, its 100+, sometimes more.

6x 10man, 3 heavy teams of 3 mortars, 2 Platoon commanders and priest, 3x5 scouts, thats 105 models minimum. And this is the winning list, some other lists had more in them, some had 120+ models.

So tell me again that 100 models is easy to kill turn 1 to get to the knight and be in combat with it while shooting it 1st to stand a chance of killing it with all max buffs and a Soulburst?

Edit: Again, if they know they have SS, they will protect a bit more, stay out of 7", stay bubble wrap in layers so not to fly over as easy, etc.. with 6 10man squads, 3 5mans, and some odds and ends guys, its not hard to stop a 9 man unit from moving to much before they can be in a good position.

Some only have a batallion though - 5 out of 7 of them don't have the chaff to protect from spears or harlie bike bonzi charges. Plus - as you pointed out - spears and harlie bikes rek infantry. If they can't make it to the knight with a double move - they just shred the infantry and get locked into combat While the rest of your army moves up and clears infantry from around the castellan.

It's easy to tell who has the advantage in the matchup. Infantry and castellans suck vs -1 to hit shenaninigans and high invo saves.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

barboggo wrote:
Interesting. Makes me wonder if Ynnari/haywire has a chance at replacing the default reaper/SS list.

When they first came out it was my initial thought too. But that was before IK came out. With the prevalence of the castellan - We are going to see a lot of starweavers I think.
Just made a quick list that will PWN this imperial soup list.
Ynnari -
Farseer skyrunner
Warlock Skyrunner
rangers
rangers
rangers

9x spears with exarch
9x spears with exarch

Quinns +1 attack trait
Shadowseer
6x Starweavers haywire
6x Starweavers haywire
6x Starweavers haywire


Theres like 30 points left over - lots of things you can do too. Like trade out rangers for kabalites and take Yvraine and a foot warlock. Lots of things you can do.

Why am I arguing this? It's not command points - it's OP units.

 Xenomancers wrote:

barboggo wrote:
I was genuinely curious about SS math because people here seem to think Ynnari does well against them?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Specifically Xenomancer btw.

Haywire spam does about 20 wounds with 12 bikes. If you brought 18 you'd be able to reliable 1 shot a castellan. Those bikes kill 58 guardsmen a turn too if they are able to fight twice they will kill about 90 guardsmen. Assuming you use the +1 attack on the charge army trait. Also assuming you can reach that many. This is just their raw damage output.

Does that include the 5+++ against Mortal Wounds stratagem that will 100% be used?

 Ordana wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

barboggo wrote:
I was genuinely curious about SS math because people here seem to think Ynnari does well against them?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Specifically Xenomancer btw.

Haywire spam does about 20 wounds with 12 bikes. If you brought 18 you'd be able to reliable 1 shot a castellan. Those bikes kill 58 guardsmen a turn too if they are able to fight twice they will kill about 90 guardsmen. Assuming you use the +1 attack on the charge army trait. Also assuming you can reach that many. This is just their raw damage output.

Does that include the 5+++ against Mortal Wounds stratagem that will 100% be used?

I wasn't aware they even had that. LOL. Wow - that changed things a bit. I could have used that last game for sure. You could always vect that. If you include DE in your list. It would be worth it.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:
You will never get them to the knight, you must soulburst just to make it to the knight and kill the 2-3 units bubble wrapping him, there is no way to get to it vs anyone thats not a noob.

SS cant kill it, SS cant get to it. GG

Yeah it's unlikely that they will fit with 60 infantry in the way - they can fly over them though if there is a hole. I was just showing what they can do in 1 turn. Which is kill the knight completely.

its not 60 tho, its 100+, sometimes more.

6x 10man, 3 heavy teams of 3 mortars, 2 Platoon commanders and priest, 3x5 scouts, thats 105 models minimum. And this is the winning list, some other lists had more in them, some had 120+ models.

So tell me again that 100 models is easy to kill turn 1 to get to the knight and be in combat with it while shooting it 1st to stand a chance of killing it with all max buffs and a Soulburst?

Edit: Again, if they know they have SS, they will protect a bit more, stay out of 7", stay bubble wrap in layers so not to fly over as easy, etc.. with 6 10man squads, 3 5mans, and some odds and ends guys, its not hard to stop a 9 man unit from moving to much before they can be in a good position.

Some only have a batallion though - 5 out of 7 of them don't have the chaff to protect from spears or harlie bike bonzi charges. Plus - as you pointed out - spears and harlie bikes rek infantry. If they can't make it to the knight with a double move - they just shred the infantry and get locked into combat While the rest of your army moves up and clears infantry from around the castellan.

It's easy to tell who has the advantage in the matchup. Infantry and castellans suck vs -1 to hit shenaninigans and high invo saves.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

barboggo wrote:
Interesting. Makes me wonder if Ynnari/haywire has a chance at replacing the default reaper/SS list.

When they first came out it was my initial thought too. But that was before IK came out. With the prevalence of the castellan - We are going to see a lot of starweavers I think.
Just made a quick list that will PWN this imperial soup list.
Ynnari -
Farseer skyrunner
Warlock Skyrunner
rangers
rangers
rangers

9x spears with exarch
9x spears with exarch

Quinns +1 attack trait
Shadowseer
6x Starweavers haywire
6x Starweavers haywire
6x Starweavers haywire


Theres like 30 points left over - lots of things you can do too. Like trade out rangers for kabalites and take Yvraine and a foot warlock. Lots of things you can do.

Why am I arguing this? It's not command points - it's OP units.

If that list doesn't go first, it still probably doesn't win. It also likely has a hard time going 8-0 against a wider variety of lists.

That being said, OP units are definitely a problem. The Castellan is too good at what is does, especially with the relic plasma, warlord 4++, rotate, and the raven strat. Blood angels captains can pretty much kill anything that hasn't been screened out against them with their stratagems. Guard are clearly the most efficient horde in the game and give tons of base CP.

However i think it is the combination of the three units is really what makes them "OP." The Castellan gets to use everything good from the knight book without having to share them with other knights, the blood angels captains get to do their full combo, and guard take up enough space to let them do it without getting effectively shot or charged in the process.

Then, the CP regen propels the list even more. The list has 3+12+5+0 CP from it's detachments, it spends 2+3+2 CP before the game on knight relic + knight warlord + blood angels relics + DVoS on the captains (these two are quasi-optional). So you start the game with 13. The Castellan needs 3 CP for rotate, 2 for Oathbreaker Missiles, 2 for Raven strat. This would normally put you down to 6 CP. This is significant IMO. The Blood angels captain combo costs 1 for redeploy, 2 for 3d6 charge, 1 for d3 attacks, and 2-3 to either die and fight again or just fight again for a total of 6-7CP. So with no CP regen you would be out of CPs in a single turn. While the IK/BA/IG combo would still be good, it would have much less of a bunch after that first turn.

With average re-gen rolls, you would still have 6-7 CP left at the end of that turn, which would be enough to do both BA and IK strat combos again with average rolls. You also get 3 or so more CP from the enemy strats (assuming they do 9 over the course of the game). In total, with average re-rolls you can do the BA and IK strat combos twice, and eight of the 1 CP dice rerolls in a game, which costs 34 CP when you started with 13. If that isn't out of control, i'm not sure what is. It is also fairly common for people to roll above average and either get free stratagems or get paid in stratagems, which starts to really propel the CP total even more.

Try rolling some dice for pretend stratagems and see how many CP you spend before you run out. Make sure to do some 1, 2 and 3 strats. The first time i did it i got to 50 something.

So it really seems to me like a combination of certain factions/units having the best strats (the 4++ warlord plus the rotate ion shields stratagem reduces the incoming damage from weapons that matter by a whopping 50%) on the best units with tons of CP all combined together.

It's very likely that fixing the CP issue would be the first step in the right direction, and then we'd be able to better see what units are OP or not.

I am seeing the same thing here. Man, the lack of diversity.

Both Drukhari lists feature Urien Rakarth, an Archon, a bunch of Ravagers and Asuryani allies.

All Imperial lists have Astra Militarum in it and many are just Company Commander with Infantry Squads and heavy weapons.

Is this what the competitive scene look like? People are just copying from one another?

bibotot wrote:
I am seeing the same thing here. Man, the lack of diversity.

Both Drukhari lists feature Urien Rakarth, an Archon, a bunch of Ravagers and Asuryani allies.

All Imperial lists have Astra Militarum in it and many are just Company Commander with Infantry Squads and heavy weapons.

Is this what the competitive scene look like? People are just copying from one another?

Well, when one unit is obviously better than another, you're going to choose that unit.

jcd386 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:
You will never get them to the knight, you must soulburst just to make it to the knight and kill the 2-3 units bubble wrapping him, there is no way to get to it vs anyone thats not a noob.

SS cant kill it, SS cant get to it. GG

Yeah it's unlikely that they will fit with 60 infantry in the way - they can fly over them though if there is a hole. I was just showing what they can do in 1 turn. Which is kill the knight completely.

its not 60 tho, its 100+, sometimes more.

6x 10man, 3 heavy teams of 3 mortars, 2 Platoon commanders and priest, 3x5 scouts, thats 105 models minimum. And this is the winning list, some other lists had more in them, some had 120+ models.

So tell me again that 100 models is easy to kill turn 1 to get to the knight and be in combat with it while shooting it 1st to stand a chance of killing it with all max buffs and a Soulburst?

Edit: Again, if they know they have SS, they will protect a bit more, stay out of 7", stay bubble wrap in layers so not to fly over as easy, etc.. with 6 10man squads, 3 5mans, and some odds and ends guys, its not hard to stop a 9 man unit from moving to much before they can be in a good position.

Some only have a batallion though - 5 out of 7 of them don't have the chaff to protect from spears or harlie bike bonzi charges. Plus - as you pointed out - spears and harlie bikes rek infantry. If they can't make it to the knight with a double move - they just shred the infantry and get locked into combat While the rest of your army moves up and clears infantry from around the castellan.

It's easy to tell who has the advantage in the matchup. Infantry and castellans suck vs -1 to hit shenaninigans and high invo saves.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

barboggo wrote:
Interesting. Makes me wonder if Ynnari/haywire has a chance at replacing the default reaper/SS list.

When they first came out it was my initial thought too. But that was before IK came out. With the prevalence of the castellan - We are going to see a lot of starweavers I think.
Just made a quick list that will PWN this imperial soup list.
Ynnari -
Farseer skyrunner
Warlock Skyrunner
rangers
rangers
rangers

9x spears with exarch
9x spears with exarch

Quinns +1 attack trait
Shadowseer
6x Starweavers haywire
6x Starweavers haywire
6x Starweavers haywire


Theres like 30 points left over - lots of things you can do too. Like trade out rangers for kabalites and take Yvraine and a foot warlock. Lots of things you can do.

Why am I arguing this? It's not command points - it's OP units.

If that list doesn't go first, it still probably doesn't win. It also likely has a hard time going 8-0 against a wider variety of lists.

That being said, OP units are definitely a problem. The Castellan is too good at what is does, especially with the relic plasma, warlord 4++, rotate, and the raven strat. Blood angels captains can pretty much kill anything that hasn't been screened out against them with their stratagems. Guard are clearly the most efficient horde in the game and give tons of base CP.

However i think it is the combination of the three units is really what makes them "OP." The Castellan gets to use everything good from the knight book without having to share them with other knights, the blood angels captains get to do their full combo, and guard take up enough space to let them do it without getting effectively shot or charged in the process.

Then, the CP regen propels the list even more. The list has 3+12+5+0 CP from it's detachments, it spends 2+3+2 CP before the game on knight relic + knight warlord + blood angels relics + DVoS on the captains (these two are quasi-optional). So you start the game with 13. The Castellan needs 3 CP for rotate, 2 for Oathbreaker Missiles, 2 for Raven strat. This would normally put you down to 6 CP. This is significant IMO. The Blood angels captain combo costs 1 for redeploy, 2 for 3d6 charge, 1 for d3 attacks, and 2-3 to either die and fight again or just fight again for a total of 6-7CP. So with no CP regen you would be out of CPs in a single turn. While the IK/BA/IG combo would still be good, it would have much less of a bunch after that first turn.

With average re-gen rolls, you would still have 6-7 CP left at the end of that turn, which would be enough to do both BA and IK strat combos again with average rolls. You also get 3 or so more CP from the enemy strats (assuming they do 9 over the course of the game). In total, with average re-rolls you can do the BA and IK strat combos twice, and eight of the 1 CP dice rerolls in a game, which costs 34 CP when you started with 13. If that isn't out of control, i'm not sure what is. It is also fairly common for people to roll above average and either get free stratagems or get paid in stratagems, which starts to really propel the CP total even more.

Try rolling some dice for pretend stratagems and see how many CP you spend before you run out. Make sure to do some 1, 2 and 3 strats. The first time i did it i got to 50 something.

So it really seems to me like a combination of certain factions/units having the best strats (the 4++ warlord plus the rotate ion shields stratagem reduces the incoming damage from weapons that matter by a whopping 50%) on the best units with tons of CP all combined together.

It's very likely that fixing the CP issue would be the first step in the right direction, and then we'd be able to better see what units are OP or not.

Don't really need to roll - if you have 20 - you will get something like 27 Cp - relic will get you 2- if they spend 6 stratagems. So 29 will be the average...obviously it's too much. Plus regenerated points can also regenerate - probably averages out to like 32- or so with no pregame strats. Because an IG brigade/batallion is to fething cheap. Plus smash captains fill HQ requirement but are the most powerful unit in the game for the points. You fix this by increasing the cost of infantry and CC by 1 and 10 respectively. This increases the cost of a brigade by aprox 80 points (if they take 2 CC). Then I would probably put a limit on the number of stratagems that can be played on a single unit in a phase. To say...1. Then I'd probably cost straken at about 110 points. His aura is nuts.
I'd also rework the way +1 save works. It should not affect invo saves UNLESS it specifically buffs invo saves and then - it wouldn't also buff your armor.
Lots of knight stratagems are too cheap too. To fight at full power at 1 wound should be 2-3 CP. I'd also rework the IK warlord trait for a 4++ save to state to a maxium of 4+. I'd probably increase the castellans point cost by about 100 points too.

True in your examples they start with less CP because of pregame strats. Do you think a limit on number of relics in an army should exist? Say a max of 3?

Also it's worth noting that Ynnari (Nick Nanavati) came in 3rd in both the invitational and the open. So they are still top tier.

In the invitational he beat one Castellan list, and then lost to a 4 knight list + guard (3 gallants and a Castellan) when his doom didn't go off.

He talks about some of it here: https://nightsatthegametable.com/blog/2018/09/04/back-from-nova-part-1/

 Xenomancers wrote:

jcd386 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:
You will never get them to the knight, you must soulburst just to make it to the knight and kill the 2-3 units bubble wrapping him, there is no way to get to it vs anyone thats not a noob.

SS cant kill it, SS cant get to it. GG

Yeah it's unlikely that they will fit with 60 infantry in the way - they can fly over them though if there is a hole. I was just showing what they can do in 1 turn. Which is kill the knight completely.

its not 60 tho, its 100+, sometimes more.

6x 10man, 3 heavy teams of 3 mortars, 2 Platoon commanders and priest, 3x5 scouts, thats 105 models minimum. And this is the winning list, some other lists had more in them, some had 120+ models.

So tell me again that 100 models is easy to kill turn 1 to get to the knight and be in combat with it while shooting it 1st to stand a chance of killing it with all max buffs and a Soulburst?

Edit: Again, if they know they have SS, they will protect a bit more, stay out of 7", stay bubble wrap in layers so not to fly over as easy, etc.. with 6 10man squads, 3 5mans, and some odds and ends guys, its not hard to stop a 9 man unit from moving to much before they can be in a good position.

Some only have a batallion though - 5 out of 7 of them don't have the chaff to protect from spears or harlie bike bonzi charges. Plus - as you pointed out - spears and harlie bikes rek infantry. If they can't make it to the knight with a double move - they just shred the infantry and get locked into combat While the rest of your army moves up and clears infantry from around the castellan.

It's easy to tell who has the advantage in the matchup. Infantry and castellans suck vs -1 to hit shenaninigans and high invo saves.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

barboggo wrote:
Interesting. Makes me wonder if Ynnari/haywire has a chance at replacing the default reaper/SS list.

When they first came out it was my initial thought too. But that was before IK came out. With the prevalence of the castellan - We are going to see a lot of starweavers I think.
Just made a quick list that will PWN this imperial soup list.
Ynnari -
Farseer skyrunner
Warlock Skyrunner
rangers
rangers
rangers

9x spears with exarch
9x spears with exarch

Quinns +1 attack trait
Shadowseer
6x Starweavers haywire
6x Starweavers haywire
6x Starweavers haywire


Theres like 30 points left over - lots of things you can do too. Like trade out rangers for kabalites and take Yvraine and a foot warlock. Lots of things you can do.

Why am I arguing this? It's not command points - it's OP units.

If that list doesn't go first, it still probably doesn't win. It also likely has a hard time going 8-0 against a wider variety of lists.

That being said, OP units are definitely a problem. The Castellan is too good at what is does, especially with the relic plasma, warlord 4++, rotate, and the raven strat. Blood angels captains can pretty much kill anything that hasn't been screened out against them with their stratagems. Guard are clearly the most efficient horde in the game and give tons of base CP.

However i think it is the combination of the three units is really what makes them "OP." The Castellan gets to use everything good from the knight book without having to share them with other knights, the blood angels captains get to do their full combo, and guard take up enough space to let them do it without getting effectively shot or charged in the process.

Then, the CP regen propels the list even more. The list has 3+12+5+0 CP from it's detachments, it spends 2+3+2 CP before the game on knight relic + knight warlord + blood angels relics + DVoS on the captains (these two are quasi-optional). So you start the game with 13. The Castellan needs 3 CP for rotate, 2 for Oathbreaker Missiles, 2 for Raven strat. This would normally put you down to 6 CP. This is significant IMO. The Blood angels captain combo costs 1 for redeploy, 2 for 3d6 charge, 1 for d3 attacks, and 2-3 to either die and fight again or just fight again for a total of 6-7CP. So with no CP regen you would be out of CPs in a single turn. While the IK/BA/IG combo would still be good, it would have much less of a bunch after that first turn.

With average re-gen rolls, you would still have 6-7 CP left at the end of that turn, which would be enough to do both BA and IK strat combos again with average rolls. You also get 3 or so more CP from the enemy strats (assuming they do 9 over the course of the game). In total, with average re-rolls you can do the BA and IK strat combos twice, and eight of the 1 CP dice rerolls in a game, which costs 34 CP when you started with 13. If that isn't out of control, i'm not sure what is. It is also fairly common for people to roll above average and either get free stratagems or get paid in stratagems, which starts to really propel the CP total even more.

Try rolling some dice for pretend stratagems and see how many CP you spend before you run out. Make sure to do some 1, 2 and 3 strats. The first time i did it i got to 50 something.

So it really seems to me like a combination of certain factions/units having the best strats (the 4++ warlord plus the rotate ion shields stratagem reduces the incoming damage from weapons that matter by a whopping 50%) on the best units with tons of CP all combined together.

It's very likely that fixing the CP issue would be the first step in the right direction, and then we'd be able to better see what units are OP or not.

Don't really need to roll - if you have 20 - you will get something like 27 Cp - relic will get you 2- if they spend 6 stratagems. So 29 will be the average...obviously it's too much. Plus regenerated points can also regenerate - probably averages out to like 32- or so with no pregame strats. Because an IG brigade/batallion is to fething cheap. Plus smash captains fill HQ requirement but are the most powerful unit in the game for the points. You fix this by increasing the cost of infantry and CC by 1 and 10 respectively. This increases the cost of a brigade by aprox 80 points (if they take 2 CC). Then I would probably put a limit on the number of stratagems that can be played on a single unit in a phase. To say...1. Then I'd probably cost straken at about 110 points. His aura is nuts.
I'd also rework the way +1 save works. It should not affect invo saves UNLESS it specifically buffs invo saves and then - it wouldn't also buff your armor.
Lots of knight stratagems are too cheap too. To fight at full power at 1 wound should be 2-3 CP. I'd also rework the IK warlord trait for a 4++ save to state to a maxium of 4+. I'd probably increase the castellans point cost by about 100 points too.

True in your examples they start with less CP because of pregame strats. Do you think a limit on number of relics in an army should exist? Say a max of 3?

You get a lot more so than that:
Assuming that you only use 1cp stratagem after deployement, for every 10 cp you have on turn 1, you will be able to spend 25 on average with the BA relic and grand strategist (each cp generate an expected 0.6666cp, than will then generate 0.36 cp...).
This is why we are talking about de-facto infinite cp with that combo.

I tend to prefer to lean towards more conservative changes when they have the potential to effect a wide spectrum of armies, but the following changes feel pretty safe to me for the FAQ.

1. Limit more powerful HQs to 0-1 per detachment. My short list would include captains, daemon princes, Hive tyrants, Tau commanders, company commanders, and Custodes shield captains. This would include any varieties of these units, but would exclude named characters. I might be missing some units but you get the idea. Dark eldar probably have to be the exception since they have very limited HQ units. As far as I know people don't spam too many eldar HQs, but some of those might need to be in this list too.
2. Cap rotate ion shields buff to a 4++.
3. Make it so you can only ever use one ability to regen CP at a time.
4. Reduce the battillion and brigade back to their original 3 and 9 CP. Increase the 3 battleforged CP to 6.
5. Cap the number of negatives to hit an enemy can effect you with to -1. Moving with a heavy weapon, for example, is something you cause for yourself so it would get you to -2 if the enemy was also -1, but nothing is ever harder to hit than that.

I think more needs to change, but these things would be my ideal changes to move into a new meta between now and CA, which would ideally do things like fix Marines and IG points costs.

Doctor-boom wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

jcd386 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:
You will never get them to the knight, you must soulburst just to make it to the knight and kill the 2-3 units bubble wrapping him, there is no way to get to it vs anyone thats not a noob.

SS cant kill it, SS cant get to it. GG

Yeah it's unlikely that they will fit with 60 infantry in the way - they can fly over them though if there is a hole. I was just showing what they can do in 1 turn. Which is kill the knight completely.

its not 60 tho, its 100+, sometimes more.

6x 10man, 3 heavy teams of 3 mortars, 2 Platoon commanders and priest, 3x5 scouts, thats 105 models minimum. And this is the winning list, some other lists had more in them, some had 120+ models.

So tell me again that 100 models is easy to kill turn 1 to get to the knight and be in combat with it while shooting it 1st to stand a chance of killing it with all max buffs and a Soulburst?

Edit: Again, if they know they have SS, they will protect a bit more, stay out of 7", stay bubble wrap in layers so not to fly over as easy, etc.. with 6 10man squads, 3 5mans, and some odds and ends guys, its not hard to stop a 9 man unit from moving to much before they can be in a good position.

Some only have a batallion though - 5 out of 7 of them don't have the chaff to protect from spears or harlie bike bonzi charges. Plus - as you pointed out - spears and harlie bikes rek infantry. If they can't make it to the knight with a double move - they just shred the infantry and get locked into combat While the rest of your army moves up and clears infantry from around the castellan.

It's easy to tell who has the advantage in the matchup. Infantry and castellans suck vs -1 to hit shenaninigans and high invo saves.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

barboggo wrote:
Interesting. Makes me wonder if Ynnari/haywire has a chance at replacing the default reaper/SS list.

When they first came out it was my initial thought too. But that was before IK came out. With the prevalence of the castellan - We are going to see a lot of starweavers I think.
Just made a quick list that will PWN this imperial soup list.
Ynnari -
Farseer skyrunner
Warlock Skyrunner
rangers
rangers
rangers

9x spears with exarch
9x spears with exarch

Quinns +1 attack trait
Shadowseer
6x Starweavers haywire
6x Starweavers haywire
6x Starweavers haywire


Theres like 30 points left over - lots of things you can do too. Like trade out rangers for kabalites and take Yvraine and a foot warlock. Lots of things you can do.

Why am I arguing this? It's not command points - it's OP units.

If that list doesn't go first, it still probably doesn't win. It also likely has a hard time going 8-0 against a wider variety of lists.

That being said, OP units are definitely a problem. The Castellan is too good at what is does, especially with the relic plasma, warlord 4++, rotate, and the raven strat. Blood angels captains can pretty much kill anything that hasn't been screened out against them with their stratagems. Guard are clearly the most efficient horde in the game and give tons of base CP.

However i think it is the combination of the three units is really what makes them "OP." The Castellan gets to use everything good from the knight book without having to share them with other knights, the blood angels captains get to do their full combo, and guard take up enough space to let them do it without getting effectively shot or charged in the process.

Then, the CP regen propels the list even more. The list has 3+12+5+0 CP from it's detachments, it spends 2+3+2 CP before the game on knight relic + knight warlord + blood angels relics + DVoS on the captains (these two are quasi-optional). So you start the game with 13. The Castellan needs 3 CP for rotate, 2 for Oathbreaker Missiles, 2 for Raven strat. This would normally put you down to 6 CP. This is significant IMO. The Blood angels captain combo costs 1 for redeploy, 2 for 3d6 charge, 1 for d3 attacks, and 2-3 to either die and fight again or just fight again for a total of 6-7CP. So with no CP regen you would be out of CPs in a single turn. While the IK/BA/IG combo would still be good, it would have much less of a bunch after that first turn.

With average re-gen rolls, you would still have 6-7 CP left at the end of that turn, which would be enough to do both BA and IK strat combos again with average rolls. You also get 3 or so more CP from the enemy strats (assuming they do 9 over the course of the game). In total, with average re-rolls you can do the BA and IK strat combos twice, and eight of the 1 CP dice rerolls in a game, which costs 34 CP when you started with 13. If that isn't out of control, i'm not sure what is. It is also fairly common for people to roll above average and either get free stratagems or get paid in stratagems, which starts to really propel the CP total even more.

Try rolling some dice for pretend stratagems and see how many CP you spend before you run out. Make sure to do some 1, 2 and 3 strats. The first time i did it i got to 50 something.

So it really seems to me like a combination of certain factions/units having the best strats (the 4++ warlord plus the rotate ion shields stratagem reduces the incoming damage from weapons that matter by a whopping 50%) on the best units with tons of CP all combined together.

It's very likely that fixing the CP issue would be the first step in the right direction, and then we'd be able to better see what units are OP or not.

Don't really need to roll - if you have 20 - you will get something like 27 Cp - relic will get you 2- if they spend 6 stratagems. So 29 will be the average...obviously it's too much. Plus regenerated points can also regenerate - probably averages out to like 32- or so with no pregame strats. Because an IG brigade/batallion is to fething cheap. Plus smash captains fill HQ requirement but are the most powerful unit in the game for the points. You fix this by increasing the cost of infantry and CC by 1 and 10 respectively. This increases the cost of a brigade by aprox 80 points (if they take 2 CC). Then I would probably put a limit on the number of stratagems that can be played on a single unit in a phase. To say...1. Then I'd probably cost straken at about 110 points. His aura is nuts.
I'd also rework the way +1 save works. It should not affect invo saves UNLESS it specifically buffs invo saves and then - it wouldn't also buff your armor.
Lots of knight stratagems are too cheap too. To fight at full power at 1 wound should be 2-3 CP. I'd also rework the IK warlord trait for a 4++ save to state to a maxium of 4+. I'd probably increase the castellans point cost by about 100 points too.

True in your examples they start with less CP because of pregame strats. Do you think a limit on number of relics in an army should exist? Say a max of 3?

You get a lot more so than that:
Assuming that you only use 1cp stratagem after deployement, for every 10 cp you have on turn 1, you will be able to spend 25 on average with the BA relic and grand strategist (each cp generate an expected 0.6666cp, than will then generate 0.36 cp...).
This is why we are talking about de-facto infinite cp with that combo.

Didn't know about this BA relic ether. It really just goes to show you how stupid TO's are. The fact that a rule where you can only use 1 CP regerenator per stratagem hasn't been made - shows you they are out to lunch. I don't think many armies use that though - because they already have enough command points...Plus blood angels captains rarely live more than 1 turn anyways.

A.T. wrote:

 bullyboy wrote:
Aside from CP farms, I would like to see HQs unable to be duplicated in the same army (at least detachment). I find it silly to have 3 Captains a tiny SM army, or 3 Shield Captains on bikes.

All of the custodes HQs choices are captains, while the marines can take six different captains without duplicating a unit.

So? Trouble is, people are duplicating the same build. Drop that and I'd be fine.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Amishprn86 wrote:

 bullyboy wrote:

Bharring wrote:
To do that, most detatchments would need to only require 1 HQ.

Each DE subfaction only *has* 1 HQ. There are 3 total generics available to them, so they'd then need to dip into Special Characters.

T'au are similarly limited. Commander. Ethereal. Fireblade. That's it.

Harlequins, same story.

Corsiars? Well, we should skip them. They have 0. But that's another story.

It works just fine really. DE have a specific rule to encourage you to take patrols, you don't need battalions and brigades. A single detachment shouldn't have 2 archons, unless you're going to roll at start of game to see which one murdered the other and took over.

Harlies have 2 HQs, so are fine in each detachment. Could some of the armies do with more HQs, sure, but it would still work and cut down on the duplicate nonsense.

There is no reason to take the Patrols in DE.

Not now, right. That pretty much was figured out the day the book was released. However, it should be that way. Patrols, Outriders, Spearheads etc. I wouldn't mind Battalions but GW thought it great to not give DE lesser ranked leaders, dumb really.

The point remains, however, that seeing 3 custodes bike captains or 3 BA smash dudes, or 3 DPs is just ridiculous.

jcd386 wrote:
It's very likely that fixing the CP issue would be the first step in the right direction, and then we'd be able to better see what units are OP or not.

We can see what units are OP now. They are the ones that feature most often in lists at top tables.

IG Infantry
Commanders
Smash Captains
Scouts
Castellans
Custodes Bikes
Wracks
Grotesques
Ravagers

These all need adjustment now. Not in 6 months. Right now.

For me, 18 haywire bikers are just too expensive and will rely on going first and getting a soulburst on one of the units, to ensure they have the bodies and shots left to 1 shot a Castellan.

Shining spears are also very cheap for what they do. The fact that they're 31 points each when a space marine biker is 27 is ridiculous. They should probably be 40 points but people would riot. (Note Ork warbikes are also 27 points but I expect those to be either buffed significantly or get a price cut)

I still think a hemlock needs a price hike of 15 points as well considering how difficult it is to hit, basically never degrades and is a psyker.

But these are things I'm okay with getting adjusted in CA whereas I want to see some game mechanical changes in the FAQ. We still have no solid idea when that's dropping yet, right?

PiñaColada wrote:
Shining spears are also very cheap for what they do. The fact that they're 31 points each when a space marine biker is 27 is ridiculous. They should probably be 40 points but people would riot. (Note Ork warbikes are also 27 points but I expect those to be either buffed significantly or get a price cut)

I still think a hemlock needs a price hike of 15 points as well considering how difficult it is to hit, basically never degrades and is a psyker.

But these are things I'm okay with getting adjusted in CA whereas I want to see some game mechanical changes in the FAQ. We still have no solid idea when that's dropping yet, right?

You're not wrong re Shining Spears and Hemlock, I'm sure there are other units I've missed but my list is specifically tied to the results of this tournament.

No news on FAQ, I'm not convinced we're definitely going to get another before the year end.

 bullyboy wrote:

A.T. wrote:

 bullyboy wrote:
Aside from CP farms, I would like to see HQs unable to be duplicated in the same army (at least detachment). I find it silly to have 3 Captains a tiny SM army, or 3 Shield Captains on bikes.

All of the custodes HQs choices are captains, while the marines can take six different captains without duplicating a unit.

So? Trouble is, people are duplicating the same build. Drop that and I'd be fine.

When you said 'silly' I had thought you meant from a fluff perspective.

But in terms of army build and game balance the trouble is that there are specific HQ choices that are clearly better than the other options, so players are only taking those.
The solution is to fix the underpowered units and reign in the overpowered units, not to force players to take poor choices.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

PiñaColada wrote:
Shining spears are also very cheap for what they do. The fact that they're 31 points each when a space marine biker is 27 is ridiculous. They should probably be 40 points but people would riot. (Note Ork warbikes are also 27 points but I expect those to be either buffed significantly or get a price cut)

I still think a hemlock needs a price hike of 15 points as well considering how difficult it is to hit, basically never degrades and is a psyker.

But these are things I'm okay with getting adjusted in CA whereas I want to see some game mechanical changes in the FAQ. We still have no solid idea when that's dropping yet, right?

You're not wrong re Shining Spears and Hemlock, I'm sure there are other units I've missed but my list is specifically tied to the results of this tournament.

No news on FAQ, I'm not convinced we're definitely going to get another before the year end.

I personally think some of the Nurgle stuff needs to be looked at as well as I find the fact that some of their stuff can get D5 attacks seems a bit crazy. I like the fact that the army strives and achieves a lot of synergy but I'm wondering if GW correctly assessed it all.

I'm pretty sure we're getting both a FAQ and CA this year but they might not cover as much as we would like. I'm not necessarily in a hurry for GW to solve every problem but I feel like I need to see something that shows us GW at the very least recognises the problems

Everyone's complaining about individual units being OP and some of the combos in these lists very much are but most of the imperial soup power vanishes or caps out turn 1 turn two played mono codex due to lack of CP.

Rather than complaining about strategums, relics and warlord traits that arn't game breaking mono codex.

Can some one please explain why the faction that can bring 22 starting CP to a 1500 point game is the only codex that gets to double up on CP Stealing and Regeneration?

The imperial soup is standing above other soup because of Guards busted CP mechanics.

Once that is fixed we would probably still be in a soup meta but atleast it would be a less one side soup meta.

I still think soup armies should loose the 3CP for being battle forged, as to most armies (bar IG) loosing 3 CP is a fairly steep price to pay for your allies over staying in codex.

Ice_can wrote:
I still think soup armies should loose the 3CP for being battle forged, as to most armies (bar IG) loosing 3 CP is a fairly steep price to pay for your allies over staying in codex.

Yea, this is part of the fix but not the fix entirely.

IG Infantry will still be the most points efficient objective holders in the game at 4ppm ---> they still get taken.
Slamguinius and to a lesser extent Shieldbike Captain will still be some of the greatest counter charge cqc beatsticks in the game ---> they still get taken.
Castellans will still put out an absurd amount of firepower and will still be incredibly tanky for their cost ----> they still get taken.

Without changes to these units specifically a paltry 3 CP loss will make no difference. Particularly when (as you've said) these soup armies can get a ton of CP incredibly cheap. All the 3 CP loss would do is shift all those Battalions to Brigades. They will still take exactly the same units and that is a stagnant meta.

I fail to see how the IG infantry will be a problem without the busload of CP attached.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:


We can see what units are OP now. They are the ones that feature most often in lists at top tables.

IG Infantry
Commanders
Smash Captains
Scouts
Castellans
Custodes Bikes
Wracks
Grotesques
Ravagers

These all need adjustment now. Not in 6 months. Right now.

No. No no no. Wrong. Incorrect. Nada. Non correctamundo. We can see what units are currently powerful not what units are "OP".

You need to get this stupid idea out of your head that anything people choose to use a lot is automatically "OP"

Just because a unit is good doesn't mean it needs to be smashed with the nerfhammer. How depressing would this game be if every time one model was a wrinkle better than another model it was nerfed into oblivion. Hey why don't we make every single unit in the game have the marine statline and they all cost 10 points each. PERFECT BALANCE!

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

Ice_can wrote:
I still think soup armies should loose the 3CP for being battle forged, as to most armies (bar IG) loosing 3 CP is a fairly steep price to pay for your allies over staying in codex.

Yea, this is part of the fix but not the fix entirely.

IG Infantry will still be the most points efficient objective holders in the game at 4ppm ---> they still get taken.
Slamguinius and to a lesser extent Shieldbike Captain will still be some of the greatest counter charge cqc beatsticks in the game ---> they still get taken.
Castellans will still put out an absurd amount of firepower and will still be incredibly tanky for their cost ----> they still get taken.

Without changes to these units specifically a paltry 3 CP loss will make no difference. Particularly when (as you've said) these soup armies can get a ton of CP incredibly cheap. All the 3 CP loss would do is shift all those Battalions to Brigades. They will still take exactly the same units and that is a stagnant meta.

Sorry maybe it wasn't clear enough, I don't think guard should have grand strategist and Kurov's ever, like the should be removed from the guard codex and never mentioned again.

So those top lists would go from thier current 20+ CP per game down to 14 CP. Given the Castellan is burning 7CP per turn and slamguinius the same its alpha and done. Still brutal but not head and shoulders above any other combo.
The Castellan can be fixed simply by requiring a knight lance to unlock strategums.

Slamguinius is a problem I can't see a fix for but most marine codex's need a V2 anyway. So maybe GW can fix him then qith maybe a temporary nerf untill then.

Well, I think the Castellan is basically fixed by capping knights invuln to a 4++, I play knights and have a Castellan but I find a 3++ on a 28 wound model pretty obnoxious. Furthermore I wouldn't cap stratagems in general to a knight lance but I'd cap the house stratagems to a lance. Meaning you can have a Castellan in a SHAD and still pay CP to get Cawls Wrath and Rotate Ion Shields but you'd no longer have access to Order of Companions (the raven strat)

Just with those two changes I think knights would essentially be fixed and any further balancing in regards to points could come at a later date.

PiñaColada wrote:
Well, I think the Castellan is basically fixed by capping knights invuln to a 4++, I play knights and have a Castellan but I find a 3++ on a 28 wound model pretty obnoxious. Furthermore I wouldn't cap stratagems in general to a knight lance but I'd cap the house stratagems to a lance. Meaning you can have a Castellan in a SHAD and still pay CP to get Cawls Wrath and Rotate Ion Shields but you'd no longer have access to Order of Companions (the raven strat)

Just with those two changes I think knights would essentially be fixed and any further balancing in regards to points could come at a later date.

I'd ok with that, though tye reason I'm hesitant to allow rotate to cap out at 4++ is with things like jinx being a flat -1 to all saves and knights having no acess to - to hit eldar can get really obnoxious against mono knights.

Well, I mean for it to be phrased in a way where if someone jinxes it it could still be improved to a 4++. Basically you can still have ion bulwark that grants you a 4++ but rotating ion shields then does nothing (since you're already at max), it would however bump you back into a 4++ if you're jinxed.

Hopefully that mess of a sentence makes sense to you.

 Jidmah wrote:
I fail to see how the IG infantry will be a problem without the busload of CP attached.

Compare their stats to another 4ppm model. Gaunt for example.

 Silentz wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:


We can see what units are OP now. They are the ones that feature most often in lists at top tables.

IG Infantry
Commanders
Smash Captains
Scouts
Castellans
Custodes Bikes
Wracks
Grotesques
Ravagers

These all need adjustment now. Not in 6 months. Right now.

No. No no no. Wrong. Incorrect. Nada. Non correctamundo. We can see what units are currently powerful not what units are "OP".

You need to get this stupid idea out of your head that anything people choose to use a lot is automatically "OP"

Just because a unit is good doesn't mean it needs to be smashed with the nerfhammer. How depressing would this game be if every time one model was a wrinkle better than another model it was nerfed into oblivion. Hey why don't we make every single unit in the game have the marine statline and they all cost 10 points each. PERFECT BALANCE!

What units are currently the most powerful in a soup list are by definition OP. They are stronger than all other contenders for the same spot in an Imperium list. An Imperium list can draw units from over half the books in the game.

There is no "stupid idea" in my head that anything people choose to use a lot is automatically "OP". My premise is pretty simple and thus; units that are taken, repeatedly, in the majority of top lists at highly competitive tournaments over and over and over and over again are OP. This isn't an outlier tournament. We are always seeing the same units in lists at the top tables. Since BA codex dropped Smash Captains have been an auto-include for Imperium soup. Since IK codex was released Castellans have featured prominently in Imperium soup.

Ironically your sarcastic comment about 'PERFECT BALANCE!' is correct. If each and every unit was equal, they would, by definition be perfectly balanced. No-one is suggesting this happens though so I'm struggling to understand why you have brought it up.

When a model outperforms every other model that is similarly costed in theory and in reality, is taken in almost every successful Imperium list and features on the top tables at every event it's pretty obvious that a nerf needs to happen.

Not a "nerfing into the ground" as you seem to exaggerate and imply. But a fix to a unit that is too strong.

This is called balancing and it is good for the game.

PiñaColada wrote:
Well, I mean for it to be phrased in a way where if someone jinxes it it could still be improved to a 4++. Basically you can still have ion bulwark that grants you a 4++ but rotating ion shields then does nothing (since you're already at max), it would however bump you back into a 4++ if you're jinxed.

Hopefully that mess of a sentence makes sense to you.

I get the idea a that would be ok I guess but man would that be a complicated qualifier for a strategum.

Ice_can wrote:

PiñaColada wrote:
Well, I mean for it to be phrased in a way where if someone jinxes it it could still be improved to a 4++. Basically you can still have ion bulwark that grants you a 4++ but rotating ion shields then does nothing (since you're already at max), it would however bump you back into a 4++ if you're jinxed.

Hopefully that mess of a sentence makes sense to you.

I get the idea a that would be ok I guess but man would that be a complicated qualifier for a strategum.

Is it really? It's just 2 modifiers negating each other..

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
I fail to see how the IG infantry will be a problem without the busload of CP attached.

Compare their stats to another 4ppm model. Gaunt for example.

 Silentz wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:


We can see what units are OP now. They are the ones that feature most often in lists at top tables.

IG Infantry
Commanders
Smash Captains
Scouts
Castellans
Custodes Bikes
Wracks
Grotesques
Ravagers

These all need adjustment now. Not in 6 months. Right now.

No. No no no. Wrong. Incorrect. Nada. Non correctamundo. We can see what units are currently powerful not what units are "OP".

You need to get this stupid idea out of your head that anything people choose to use a lot is automatically "OP"

Just because a unit is good doesn't mean it needs to be smashed with the nerfhammer. How depressing would this game be if every time one model was a wrinkle better than another model it was nerfed into oblivion. Hey why don't we make every single unit in the game have the marine statline and they all cost 10 points each. PERFECT BALANCE!

What units are currently the most powerful in a soup list are by definition OP. They are stronger than all other contenders for the same spot in an Imperium list. An Imperium list can draw units from over half the books in the game.

There is no "stupid idea" in my head that anything people choose to use a lot is automatically "OP". My premise is pretty simple and thus; units that are taken, repeatedly, in the majority of top lists at highly competitive tournaments over and over and over and over again are OP. This isn't an outlier tournament. We are always seeing the same units in lists at the top tables. Since BA codex dropped Smash Captains have been an auto-include for Imperium soup. Since IK codex was released Castellans have featured prominently in Imperium soup.

Ironically your sarcastic comment about 'PERFECT BALANCE!' is correct. If each and every unit was equal, they would, by definition be perfectly balanced. No-one is suggesting this happens though so I'm struggling to understand why you have brought it up.

When a model outperforms every other model that is similarly costed in theory and in reality, is taken in almost every successful Imperium list and features on the top tables at every event it's pretty obvious that a nerf needs to happen.

Not a "nerfing into the ground" as you seem to exaggerate and imply. But a fix to a unit that is too strong.

This is called balancing and it is good for the game.

By your logic we might aswell nerf Ork boys since they literally make all ork lists? Especially all Ork competitive lists? /Sarcasm btw.

IG infantry would be fine if it were not for the frankly inherently unbalanced and unbalanceable CP mechanic.
Let me give you another exemple, if marine lists or CSM lists could get away with min 3 spacemarines per troop choice to fill and they'd drop 1ppm a piece all of them would switch off of Guardsmen or cultists since they get to fill their troop tax cheaper, and don't need another HQ tax since they could fill their taxes in their own detachments. Basically we are atm, thanks to GW's poor implementation, in a race to the bottom.
So long troop heavy detachments for all factions give the most CP and so long certain Stratagems are just frankly a must (cough smashcaptains?) so long the cheapest possible way to fill those will be taken, in order to maximize on those units that actually can use the good stratagems in an offensive boardwipe styles esqua manner.

Basically Soup atm stops us from balancing individual units in comparison to each other or even armies, since the "whole" faction behind it can use basically their generated CP for other stuff.
So long soup is a thing, so long we can't see the propper effectiveness of a unit, (except crons and tau since they don't have any soup possibility) . So long we have no idea how those units perform without CP batteries/ allied in stuff, so long we will not be able to balance the game.

2 things now should happen:
A) Either we buff all monofactions, via certain boni, for exemple all detachment of marines gains x ammount of CP, specific fluffy mono detachments gain x ammount of cp.

B) Force either that Cp can only be used by the generator of said CP (limit cp to the detachment) or double the price of CP if you use Cp from another faction detachment in your army.