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How is a GL worse than a LR? A GL is d6 shots of the 3 strength, 24" distance, and 1 damage, with the potential to upgrade to anti-tankish role, and it's assault.
A LR is 24 inches of rf1, with the potential to be rapid fire two, so at max it's 2-4 shots of 4 str, 24" 1 dmg. That 1 strength is REALLY the kickass boost to get over the added benefits of the GL?

This is why people dismiss your arguments, because you make thoughtless statements like this. You parrot whiney crap and you have no real experience in the game. My GL's earn their points back and then some, every game.

Shiny SPears are not full plastic, they are Windriders with a finecast upgrade spur.

And Shiny Spears are almost priced well, its the Ynnari thats the problem.

 Amishprn86 wrote:
Shiny SPears are not full plastic, they are Windriders with a finecast upgrade spur.

And Shiny Spears are almost priced well, its the Ynnari thats the problem.

You are nuts - they are arguably the most undercosted unit in the game.





Edited by insaniak

 Jidmah wrote:
Maybe just take something that wasn't an S4 AP5 template in 7th?
Heavy flamers of all variants kill guardsmen just fine. As do hurricane bolters, assault cannons, heavy bolters, heavy stubbers, avenger gatling cannons... and pretty much everything else that's has a decent amount of shots and at least AP-1.

S4 AP5 was the standard light infantry killing line in 7th, wounding on 3 and ignoring armour - it makes sense to be the starting point of the comparison between editions.

Most of your suggestions were heavier AP4 weapons used against medium infantry in 7th, and even light anti-tank weapons in the case of the S6 stuff.
And they aren't even all that good at killing guard in 8th - a heavy flamer kills a whole extra half guy in the same scenario and costs twice as much while the heavy bolter fired at BS3+ doesn't even do as much damage as the flamer.

Well, most people didn't even care when their weapons were AP4 in 6th/7th. There was AP anything, AP Marines, AP GEQ, and AP nothing.

AP5 turning into AP-1 would have made Marines terribad. Imagine if almost every single basic gun (they were almost all AP5) gave Marines a 4+... They're bad now, but that would be so much worse.

 Jidmah wrote:

Maybe just take something that wasn't an S4 AP5 template in 7th? Heavy flamers of all variants kill guardsmen just fine. As do hurricane bolters, assault cannons, heavy bolters, heavy stubbers, avenger gatling cannons... and pretty much everything else that's has a decent amount of shots and at least AP-1. C'mon orks can do 9 hits S6 AP-1 for ~150 points, I bet any army that's not collecting skulls and blood for a living can do better.

All of these things are way better at killing the marines than they're killing the guard.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:
Shiny SPears are not full plastic, they are Windriders with a finecast upgrade spur.

And Shiny Spears are almost priced well, its the Ynnari thats the problem.

You are nuts - they are arguably the most undercosted unit in the game..

Yes b.c their 4++ and -1 to hit is only good at shooting, they are a close range uit once i combat has almost no saves. They are just a Windrider unit with a shooting powerlance and a shooting toughness buff for 8pts more, the weapon could be consider 7pts giving them a pt more for the invul, sure they can go up 2-3pts at max, but its not going to stop players from taking them, if Ynnari isnt there no one will play them in comp, there are better options, Ynnari is why they are good.

Its the same reason why Custode bikes are not taken, they are just as tough and just as much damage for same points, but they dont have double turn or powers to back them up.

 Amishprn86 wrote:
Shiny SPears are not full plastic, they are Windriders with a finecast upgrade spur.

And Shiny Spears are almost priced well, its the Ynnari thats the problem.

Now, we can complain about bikes in general not being all that great, that's valid. But even if normal SM & Ork bikes were slashed in points they're still so far away in versatility and damage output (and arguably defence
as well because of the invuln) that it's not even funny. A shining spear should be 40 points, they'd still be good then. They're great targets for buffs, easy to hide out of distance and LoS and hit hard. They're an interesting unit that shouldn't be nerfed into the ground, that doesn't mean they're fine as is.

Sure you can compare them. Especially when they can ally with each other so they are directly competing with each other.

Id also say the ork comparison is more difficult because they are a much different unit than guardsmen or space Marines, because they are a melee unit that is typically advancing and charging at you, and that more of their points value goes into damage ability and mobility / morale special rules than it does defense. So it's much less of an apples to apples comparison.

Yeah, the argument that we don't see 27 shining spears because people don't own them is trash. Top players would find a way (conversion, kit bash, beg/borrow/steal) to get it on the table it it was great. People were playing Pox walker spam with hundreds of models when that was the thing to do. If you listen to Nick Nanivatii you would know he did not own all those models he borrowed them from people. SO if 27 shinning spears was over the top good (or even top tier) you would see it on top tables, lack of models would not stop people.

Shining Spears only have -1 to hit when Alaitoc and not Ynnari - thus no SfD. They do *not* have it natively.

A 10-man Spears unit is going to be buffed, of course. Because it's Knight-level points to field 10 Spears.

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
How is a GL worse than a LR? A GL is d6 shots of the 3 strength, 24" distance, and 1 damage, with the potential to upgrade to anti-tankish role, and it's assault.
A LR is 24 inches of rf1, with the potential to be rapid fire two, so at max it's 2-4 shots of 4 str, 24" 1 dmg. That 1 strength is REALLY the kickass boost to get over the added benefits of the GL?

This is why people dismiss your arguments, because you make thoughtless statements like this. You parrot whiney crap and you have no real experience in the game. My GL's earn their points back and then some, every game.

I'm glad you could be bothered to type this out. I wanted to but it's so exhausting.

The worst thing is that tournament-winning people like KDash write intelligent and well-reasoned arguments which people completely ignore just to continue wittering on about how Infantry Squads are mathematically OP and breaking the whole game.

PiñaColada wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:
Shiny SPears are not full plastic, they are Windriders with a finecast upgrade spur.

And Shiny Spears are almost priced well, its the Ynnari thats the problem.

Now, we can complain about bikes in general not being all that great, that's valid. But even if normal SM & Ork bikes were slashed in points they're still so far away in versatility and damage output (and arguably defence
as well because of the invuln) that it's not even funny. A shining spear should be 40 points, they'd still be good then. They're great targets for buffs, easy to hide out of distance and LoS and hit hard. They're an interesting unit that shouldn't be nerfed into the ground, that doesn't mean they're fine as is.

If you read though my history you will see i've been proposing that all bikers gets the ability to fallback and shoot at full BS, SW/UM should be able to fall back, shoot, and charge along with some other armies bikes. All normal Bikers are trash right now and needs a buff or a price decrease.

And again if you fix Ynnari or take SS out of Ynnari no one would say how good they are, b.c no one would think they are.

Bharring wrote:
Shining Spears only have -1 to hit when Alaitoc and not Ynnari - thus no SfD. They do *not* have it natively.

A 10-man Spears unit is going to be buffed, of course. Because it's Knight-level points to field 10 Spears.

You cant take 10, 9 is max in a squad

Wow. I've never considered taking more than 5. I've never taken more than 3. So I never checked that I could. Just assumed you could.

Thanks for pointing that out!

Its b.c their box is 3 mans.

The main reason you don't see armies of 27 SS is because people don't have the models. They have been out of stock most of the edition.

Not really. I live in Iceland and travel to the UK on a regular basis and have found it relatively easy to order them regardless where from. Annoying to work with thanks to the resin though. They are even easier to convert if you are into that and I've seen some players doing just that.

Also, before the original super FAQ hit, people were using Dark Reapers more and it is now that they've been bumped in price that we see Shining Spears becoming more popular. However, not so popular as to people wanting to field endless amount of them. There is what one army in the top list that has a single unit of 9?

Don't get me wrong. They are a good unit and one of the best in the Craftworld codex, but if people's ideas of a thing being OP is only when everything falls into place(psychic powers, auras, stratagems) then the unit isn't necessarily OP, but that the synergy of all things should be looked at and re-evaluated and changed if need be(I'd love for the -1 Alaitoc thing to be removed entirely). That is something that in my opinion needs to be re-evaluated for every army now that people have experimented more with these armies.

Again, if they were the auto-win unit that some people claim them to be we would probably see more of them. They haven't exactly been hard to order and there are quite a few old metal ones lying around being sold(I had 3 before 8th hit).

It will at least be interesting to see how CA turns out. I'll be looking forward to it regardless of what happens.

Edit: I would also like to echo Amishprn86's sentiment regarding Ynnari. Shining Spears Ynnari should be costed differently than Shining Spears Craftworld as Ynnari have a completely different - and powerful - synergy with them.

Well people dont understand that players are using 300 points of HQ's to make a 280pt unit effective, and it has many variables to stop that from working.

Its almost like its worth 600pts..... But nooooo when a 400pt Tantalus does the same thing, then its ok.


I just cant wait for Ynnari codex so Ynnari is priced correctly and all this Ynnari business is behind us.

There are many reasons for the limit on spears.

From a gameplay perspective to work, they need a lot of buffs, strats, etc.., you can only really pile them on one unit at any given time. So most lists have just one unit and some lists with super-redundancy might have two units, basically one being a back-up after you suicide the first.

For another, Spears are decent in a Ynnari list with the aforementioned buffs and the ability to essentially act twice each turn. Great. That essentially means they are pretty gak as a units without 10 characters buffing them and only activating once. If a unit is good by essentially playing 1 1/2 to 2 turns each turn, it's probably underpowered just playing like any other unit. If Grey Knight Terminators or whatever could move twice, shoot twice, fight twice CP-free on demand, every Imperial List would probably have them.

 Amishprn86 wrote:
If you read though my history you will see i've been proposing that all bikers gets the ability to fallback and shoot at full BS, SW/UM should be able to fall back, shoot, and charge along with some other armies bikes. All normal Bikers are trash right now and needs a buff or a price decrease.

And again if you fix Ynnari or take SS out of Ynnari no one would say how good they are, b.c no one would think they are.

I'll take your word for it regarding bikes. I do however disagree over the fact that no-one would think they're too points efficient if they weren't Ynnari. They are still fantastic as Alaitoc due to the possibility of stacking negative modfiers in conjuction with their fly ability, which means against some armies they simply have to die otherwise they'll tie up your gunline. They're probably even better as Saim-Hann due to that stratagem meaning they can effectively travese the entire board. I don't think it's probably worth it to ever have more than one unit of them, but a single mid-sized unit is still dirt cheap for what they do. I'd argue a point increase of 9ppm is not a lot considering what they bring to the table.

They overperform as Uthwe, even. Not top-table-NOVA overperform, but better-than-most-dexes-have overperform.

Seems to me that the best order of operations would be to balance the Ynnari ability first, then balance the Spears from there. So much of their power comes from spells that spamming them isn't super viable. It's difficult to say how much is the unit, and how much is Ynnari, doom, and so on.

Grotesques are too strong, and will get nerfed.

Imperial Guard has always been too strong.

 Amishprn86 wrote:
I just cant wait for Ynnari codex so Ynnari is priced correctly and all this Ynnari business is behind us.

Won't make a bit of difference. As far as GW is concerned if it costs X points in codex 1 then it will be the same cost in codex 2. It doesn't matter about efficiency or the ability to be buffed. If it's the same data sheet then it's the same cost.

For example: When GW bumped up the cost of assault cannons mounted on vehicles and then increased the cost of the base vehicles as well due to Rowboat's buffing aura they also increased the same models cost in the GK codex even though GK can't do didley to buff those units. Not to mention the cost went up for all of the other chapters (but they're in the same codex so...).

They aren't that much better as Ynnari. As Aliotoc or siamhan - they are still amazing. -2 to hit shooting? GTFO. Reroll charges and advance and shoot with no penalty - also gravy for a unit with 2 assault weapons. You guys think so 1 dimensional - like you can't consider other options if they aren't being played in tournaments.

Do CWE spears have advantages over Ynnari spears? Yes they do.
#1 can have reroll charges or -1 to hit.
#2 units in their detachment also gain these advantages instead of giving them up. SFD likely does nothing for these units.

It's not like in the case of DR where ynnari DR are just flat out better - 1 can shoot twice and stay out of sight with Fire and fade - the other can't shoot twice.

Ynnari spears can shoot twice - yeah - but you are likely giving up a buff life guide for it (causes you are probably taking yvraine instead of a second farseer or eldrad) and you are shooting at bs4+ instead of 3+ or you are out of range because you didn't advance. Spears only have 6" and 12" shooting range - at lot of times the ability to shoot twice is wasted on them - because there is nothing else in rage. Fighting twice in CC is also exceptionally rare and easy to avoid.

Both have advantages. In my experience Siamhan spears are probably the best. The ability to advance and charge gives them almost automatic charging turn 1 (even if quicken fails) plus the can still shoot at 3+ to hit because they have battle focus. Their autarch is also a freaking god with the Nova lance.

Aliotoc spears can deploy on the front lines not giving to F's about you shooting them turn 1. Cause -2 to hit with 4++ saves. You are practically begging your opponent to shoot at them.

It is not a Ynnari problem. The unit is under costed AF.

Scatterbikes in 7th weren't actually broken guys. Take out the allied Riptide Formation and we'll see what actually happens to mono-Eldar lists!

Bharring wrote:
AP5 turning into AP-1 would have made Marines terribad.

True. What they should have done is have AP5 weapons as -0 (as they are now) but changed the statlines on other units to fit the edition - with guard and orks (etc) losing saves entirely and then a gradient through with elite-chaff like guardians at 6+, carapace at 5+, medium-heavy units like the tougher aspect warriors at 4+, power armour 3+, etc - perhaps all the way to 1+ for terminators.

And doing a better job with anti-infantry weapons while they were at it, more shots on the templates but hits limited to target unit size while the lighter guns could do with an extra dice or two much like the stormbolter.

GW stuck too much to the status quo, not wanting to deviate from their established numbers even with the entire ruleset changing around them.

jcd386 wrote:
Seems to me that the best order of operations would be to balance the Ynnari ability first, then balance the Spears from there. So much of their power comes from spells that spamming them isn't super viable. It's difficult to say how much is the unit, and how much is Ynnari, doom, and so on.

Doom could probably go to 8 to cast. It is a super power after all. The unit is just flat under costed though - without condering anything else - which is why spears have been dominating 8th edition since the start. 31 points for 4 rending shots 3 total str 6 ap-4 flat 2 damage attacks with a 4++ and 2 wounds and 16" move...that units actaul value is closer to 45 than 31. If you compare them to windriders - they basically get their melee weapons and invo saves FOR FREE.

Kdash wrote:

Breng77 wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

jcd386 wrote:
It's very likely that fixing the CP issue would be the first step in the right direction, and then we'd be able to better see what units are OP or not.

We can see what units are OP now. They are the ones that feature most often in lists at top tables.

IG Infantry
Commanders
Smash Captains
Scouts
Castellans
Custodes Bikes
Wracks
Grotesques
Ravagers

These all need adjustment now. Not in 6 months. Right now.

Nope, sorry you lose credibility when you say things like Scouts are OP. Unless by OP you mean better than tactical marines. They get taken because they are troops, CP are important and people want Smash Captains, and BA CP recycling. IG infantry see a similar result, they are troops, CP are important, people want guard CP recycling. As was pointed out you cannot really apply "appears in a bunch of top lists" as a metric of OP for troop choices. Those choices are literally forced by GW making stratgems the power in the game and then making cheap troops the way you unlock them. When Aeldari were on top I don't recall people going "Rangers are OP look at how many top lists have Rangers." or During Flyrant Spam "Rippers are OP." That isn't to say troops cannot be OP, simply that their presence in a bunch of top lists is just as likely to be due to wanting other OP things than actually the troops themselves being OP. No one was taking more marine detachments to get more scouts to win games.

I agree. Scouts aren’t used because they are a “broken” or “overpowered” unit. They as used because they are the cheapest troop choice, in a detachment that wants to put all their spare points into more Smash Captains.
Scouts also aren’t used because “they make their points back in 1 turn” or anything like that, they are used because in things like ITC missions, having a unit sat on an objective turn 1 scores you points. They have an ability that makes it easier to accomplish, but, they still die quickly if focused.

Castellans on their own aren’t overpowered or broken imo. Give them 2 CP at the start of the game then 5-8 CP every turn, then they can become an issue. But again, that is a problem with having access to 25-40 CP a game, rather than the unit itself.

Custodes Shield Captains on Bikes are pretty nice. But, in my game vs Mike Porter, 1 Crusader Knight happily killed off all 3 of his over the course of 4 turns. It would have been quicker, if he didn’t have access to 6CP for 3 lots of VotBGs and another 3 CP for 2 3++ relics, and the odd CP re-roll here and there.

Etc etc.

The current state of CP and the game is what is pushing units into the “over powered” and “over used” categories, not the units abilities and stats.

Infantry are point for point one of if not the most durable unit in the game. They are incredible in theory and this is supported by most top lists also having them.

Don't you think it's a mess that no one takes Tac marines because Scouts are a flat better choice? Does it sound normal?

Driving now will message properly later.

How can anyone say the catellan is not undercosted. Compare it to a crusader.

Plasma is flat out better than gatling gun - volcano lance is about twice as good as a titan melta - 2 siege breaker cannons are about twice as good as storm spear rocket - then the castellan has 4 melta guns and 2 invo denying missles and +4 wounds all for about 100 more points? Are you joking?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
How are we ever going to have a balanced game - if you people can't even agree that the most obviously OP things... Like guardsmen, Castellans, and shinning spears are OP?

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

Kdash wrote:

Breng77 wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

jcd386 wrote:
It's very likely that fixing the CP issue would be the first step in the right direction, and then we'd be able to better see what units are OP or not.

We can see what units are OP now. They are the ones that feature most often in lists at top tables.

IG Infantry
Commanders
Smash Captains
Scouts
Castellans
Custodes Bikes
Wracks
Grotesques
Ravagers

These all need adjustment now. Not in 6 months. Right now.

Nope, sorry you lose credibility when you say things like Scouts are OP. Unless by OP you mean better than tactical marines. They get taken because they are troops, CP are important and people want Smash Captains, and BA CP recycling. IG infantry see a similar result, they are troops, CP are important, people want guard CP recycling. As was pointed out you cannot really apply "appears in a bunch of top lists" as a metric of OP for troop choices. Those choices are literally forced by GW making stratgems the power in the game and then making cheap troops the way you unlock them. When Aeldari were on top I don't recall people going "Rangers are OP look at how many top lists have Rangers." or During Flyrant Spam "Rippers are OP." That isn't to say troops cannot be OP, simply that their presence in a bunch of top lists is just as likely to be due to wanting other OP things than actually the troops themselves being OP. No one was taking more marine detachments to get more scouts to win games.

I agree. Scouts aren’t used because they are a “broken” or “overpowered” unit. They as used because they are the cheapest troop choice, in a detachment that wants to put all their spare points into more Smash Captains.
Scouts also aren’t used because “they make their points back in 1 turn” or anything like that, they are used because in things like ITC missions, having a unit sat on an objective turn 1 scores you points. They have an ability that makes it easier to accomplish, but, they still die quickly if focused.

Castellans on their own aren’t overpowered or broken imo. Give them 2 CP at the start of the game then 5-8 CP every turn, then they can become an issue. But again, that is a problem with having access to 25-40 CP a game, rather than the unit itself.

Custodes Shield Captains on Bikes are pretty nice. But, in my game vs Mike Porter, 1 Crusader Knight happily killed off all 3 of his over the course of 4 turns. It would have been quicker, if he didn’t have access to 6CP for 3 lots of VotBGs and another 3 CP for 2 3++ relics, and the odd CP re-roll here and there.

Etc etc.

The current state of CP and the game is what is pushing units into the “over powered” and “over used” categories, not the units abilities and stats.

Infantry are point for point one of if not the most durable unit in the game. They are incredible in theory and this is supported by most top lists also having them.

Don't you think it's a mess that no one takes Tac marines because Scouts are a flat better choice? Does it sound normal?

Driving now will message properly later.

again neither seems to be spammed to win games but rather taken because CP are good, and they are the best way in their respective books to unlock said CP. Let me put it this way, do you think if people could get 5 CP (or even say 3-4 CP) taking a supreme command of smash captains you would be seeing tons of scouts? Personally I don't think you would, you would see 3 Smash Captains. People want the OP units in a book, but they also want CP, so troops get taken.


Infantry might be slightly undercosted, but they are in a tough place due to how low end points work (raising them to 5 points is a 25% increase in cost).

As to tac marines, sure it is a mess, but that is because they suck, not because scouts are OMG amazing OP units. So again unless by OP you mean "better than a tactical marine" then no scouts are not OP. No list is spamming scouts to win games, they are taking them because they must take troops, and scouts are better than tacticals. Being the best choice in a slot in a particular codex does not make a unit OP, it just speaks to poor internal balance. Maybe all the other choices are just bad.

You argument is akin to say if sisters became a top book because Seraphim and Celestine were OP, but people took battle sisters to fill out battalions, and you saying See Battle Sisters are OP...