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In January I ran Craftworld Eldar at a 6 game Major in the UK. I didn’t include Dark Reapers because I hated the spam, and I didn’t run Ynnari because I wanted to prove a point at the time.
My list included 1 unit of 9 Spears, and 1 unit of 3 spears acting as a bodyguard for my Autarch Warlord. I ran them as Saim-Hann.
The Spears were good, in most games, but certainly not game breaking at the time (this was when you could deep strike turn 1 and then Quicken for 22” move and then charge). The times the Spears were excellent were the times that I got +1 to hit in combat, +1 to wound in combat, -1 to hit, +1 saves power cast on unit and then Doom cast on the target. Which, by the way…. Requires 1 Farseer Jetbike, 2 Warlock Jetbikes AND 2 Spiritseers. I also had a couple of Hemlocks for Jinx if needed. That, I’m sure you’ll appreciate, is a lot of point, power and CP investment to ensure everything lines up correctly. (686 points, 896 if you include 1 hemlock – then 1 CP for farseer/warlock stratagem. 1 CP for advance and charge and re-roll 1’s to hit in combat stratagem. Then, 2 cp for -1 to hit, maybe 1 CP for deepstriking)
Throughout the event, I discovered that deepstriking 20 Guardians and a Farseer was more optimal than deepstriking the Spears, so that led me to just deploying the Spears. However, in 1 game vs Chaos, my 9-man Spear unit was reduced to 4 models on turn 1, after a unit of 40 Alpha Legion cultists came in and shot them twice. (which, by the way, costs 160 points). After that they were severely neutered and got nowhere close to making back their points investment.
In other games, where I only got 1 or 2 powers off on them, they were ok. For anything with T7+, they needed Doom to be cast on the target, otherwise they really struggled to put out effective damage.
However, in the one game vs 13 Guard Tanks with infantry screening, they got the full buffs, and his entire shooting phase only killed 3 Spears.
But, that was 1 game out of 6.
The moment they don’t kill their target in combat, or if they can get counter charged, then, they suck. And they die quickly. Doesn’t matter if the weapon is -4AP and 2 damage a time if they are hitting on 3’s and only str 3 and they will only have a 2+ save with protect or a 3+ save without it.
When we look at things now, they have to start on the table due to the deepstrike nerf, preferably out of LoS. They can’t advance and charge unless you run them as Saim-Hann. They still die to weight of dice unless you pump in hundreds of points worth of protection and CP. They still die in combat. And, when all that is done and considered, they still only have a 6” and a 12” range on their weapons. Sure, it gives their Shuriken Catapults a 28”-34” threat range, but we all know how good 36 bolter shots are (even if 4 of them wound with -3ap).
Spears are good when you pile points into them, which gets amplified by the ability to get a bonus fight or shooting phase via Ynnari. But, when they don’t have their support in place, or get charged themselves, they really struggle.
If Ynnari didn’t exist, Spears would still be taken because they are a good unit out of a selection of many bad ones. But, taking more than 1 big squad of them is, imo, just a waste of points. 1 unit will get buffed and be pretty resilient and killy, the other 2 units will just be waiting for unit 1 to die, so they can get the buffs to start making their points back.
If you are taking Shining Spears for anti-infantry alone, I’d say stop and just swap the 281 points for 2 triple cannon Wave Serpents. Sure, it’s half the shots, but, the Serpent is going to benefit more from Alaitocs trait, has higher str shots, double the range AND is more resilient/effective after losing some wounds. Also, it then allows you to drop a lot of the supporting powers, which will likely free up space for a 3rd Wave Serpent.
As for counters, pick any common 2 damage weapons. A 3 dissie cannon Ravager (125 points) can reasonably expect to kill 2 Spears a turn, when they aren’t -2 to hit and have a 3++. 3 Ravagers therefore ruin a squad. (Ravagers also have the advantage of always making the first move vs Spears). At -2 to hit and a 3++, sure they will struggle to kill 1 each, but that is to be expected.
2 Guard squads using FRFSRF will kill 3 Spears. 40 points, or 50 points, it doesn’t matter.
2 AssCan Razorbacks will kill 3.5 Spears when re-rolling 1’s to hit and wound.
A turn 1 charging Daemon Prince with Warptime will kill 3 Spears then easily survive them falling back and shooting him.
8 Dark Reapers (cheaper than 9 Spears) will shoot 4 Spears off the table a turn.
I’m not saying Spears are bad. Not by a long long stretch, but spamming them won’t win you tournaments – especially against the current soup lists.
Spears require a lot of moving parts to be fully effective. The moment you miss 1 or 2 of those parts, then they really start to struggle.
If you want to balance Spears, then you HAVE to do it from a Craftworlds ONLY point of view. You CANNOT balance a Craftworlds unit around an ability from a different codex. If that ability is what is causing the imbalance, then you target the ability first. Nerfing 1 unit, because of an ability in a different codex just unnecessarily nerfs the unit when used for its original purpose. At that point you are hurting Craftworlds to spite Ynnari, rather than just hurt Ynnari.
I’d wager that the 14 Grotesques, 20 Guardians and the Yncarne in Nick Nanavati’s list had more impact on the games than 9 Spears using 4CP a turn to re-roll hits of 1 in combat and potentially fighting twice vs a Doomed target.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: How is a GL worse than a LR? A GL is d6 shots of the 3 strength, 24" distance, and 1 damage, with the potential to upgrade to anti-tankish role, and it's assault.
A LR is 24 inches of rf1, with the potential to be rapid fire two, so at max it's 2-4 shots of 4 str, 24" 1 dmg. That 1 strength is REALLY the kickass boost to get over the added benefits of the GL?
This is why people dismiss your arguments, because you make thoughtless statements like this. You parrot whiney crap and you have no real experience in the game. My GL's earn their points back and then some, every game.
I'm glad you could be bothered to type this out. I wanted to but it's so exhausting.
The worst thing is that tournament-winning people like KDash write intelligent and well-reasoned arguments which people completely ignore just to continue wittering on about how Infantry Squads are mathematically OP and breaking the whole game.
Haha, thanks. I try. If it changes the opinion of 1 person or helps them think a bit more, then I’m happy.
Either that or I’m becoming masochistic lol!
Exalted. Great post and good reasoning. This exactly matches my experience with shining spears, just from the other side of the table. A good deny roll in the wrong moment (Doom or Protect) and the glass cannon simply breaks apart.
7 Ork facts people always get wrong: Ragnar did not win against Thrakka, but suffered two crushing defeats within a few days of each other. A lasgun is powerful enough to sever an ork's appendage or head in a single, well aimed shot. Orks meks have a better understanding of electrics and mechanics than most Tech Priests. Orks actually do not think that purple makes them harder to see. The joke was made canon by Alex Stewart's Caphias Cain books. Gharkull Blackfang did not even come close to killing the emperor. Orks can be corrupted by chaos, but few of them have any interest in what chaos offers. Orks do not have the power of believe.
Bharring wrote: Then I haven't been clear. I've been claiming things like:
-Vs most weapons, Spears and Marines are equally durable. Not that they should be - and even claimed that Spears should be less durable per point than Marines quite directly. I thought that would make it clear that I thought Spears were OP.
I think you tried to make the accurate point that Spears are quite soft, can't take a punch and die under fire.
This is why you don't see 27 on competitive tables, not because people can't find the models.
The odds of going first with the +1 are only 56%. In a 5 game tournament you are probably going second twice. Good luck against the Imperial list in those circumstances.
You do however see 18 on competitive tables.
P.S.A. I won't read your posts if you break it into a million separate quotes and make an eyesore of it.
In January I ran Craftworld Eldar at a 6 game Major in the UK. I didn’t include Dark Reapers because I hated the spam, and I didn’t run Ynnari because I wanted to prove a point at the time.
My list included 1 unit of 9 Spears, and 1 unit of 3 spears acting as a bodyguard for my Autarch Warlord. I ran them as Saim-Hann.
The Spears were good, in most games, but certainly not game breaking at the time (this was when you could deep strike turn 1 and then Quicken for 22” move and then charge). The times the Spears were excellent were the times that I got +1 to hit in combat, +1 to wound in combat, -1 to hit, +1 saves power cast on unit and then Doom cast on the target. Which, by the way…. Requires 1 Farseer Jetbike, 2 Warlock Jetbikes AND 2 Spiritseers. I also had a couple of Hemlocks for Jinx if needed. That, I’m sure you’ll appreciate, is a lot of point, power and CP investment to ensure everything lines up correctly. (686 points, 896 if you include 1 hemlock – then 1 CP for farseer/warlock stratagem. 1 CP for advance and charge and re-roll 1’s to hit in combat stratagem. Then, 2 cp for -1 to hit, maybe 1 CP for deepstriking)
Throughout the event, I discovered that deepstriking 20 Guardians and a Farseer was more optimal than deepstriking the Spears, so that led me to just deploying the Spears. However, in 1 game vs Chaos, my 9-man Spear unit was reduced to 4 models on turn 1, after a unit of 40 Alpha Legion cultists came in and shot them twice. (which, by the way, costs 160 points). After that they were severely neutered and got nowhere close to making back their points investment.
In other games, where I only got 1 or 2 powers off on them, they were ok. For anything with T7+, they needed Doom to be cast on the target, otherwise they really struggled to put out effective damage.
However, in the one game vs 13 Guard Tanks with infantry screening, they got the full buffs, and his entire shooting phase only killed 3 Spears.
But, that was 1 game out of 6.
The moment they don’t kill their target in combat, or if they can get counter charged, then, they suck. And they die quickly. Doesn’t matter if the weapon is -4AP and 2 damage a time if they are hitting on 3’s and only str 3 and they will only have a 2+ save with protect or a 3+ save without it.
When we look at things now, they have to start on the table due to the deepstrike nerf, preferably out of LoS. They can’t advance and charge unless you run them as Saim-Hann. They still die to weight of dice unless you pump in hundreds of points worth of protection and CP. They still die in combat. And, when all that is done and considered, they still only have a 6” and a 12” range on their weapons. Sure, it gives their Shuriken Catapults a 28”-34” threat range, but we all know how good 36 bolter shots are (even if 4 of them wound with -3ap).
Spears are good when you pile points into them, which gets amplified by the ability to get a bonus fight or shooting phase via Ynnari. But, when they don’t have their support in place, or get charged themselves, they really struggle.
If Ynnari didn’t exist, Spears would still be taken because they are a good unit out of a selection of many bad ones. But, taking more than 1 big squad of them is, imo, just a waste of points. 1 unit will get buffed and be pretty resilient and killy, the other 2 units will just be waiting for unit 1 to die, so they can get the buffs to start making their points back.
If you are taking Shining Spears for anti-infantry alone, I’d say stop and just swap the 281 points for 2 triple cannon Wave Serpents. Sure, it’s half the shots, but, the Serpent is going to benefit more from Alaitocs trait, has higher str shots, double the range AND is more resilient/effective after losing some wounds. Also, it then allows you to drop a lot of the supporting powers, which will likely free up space for a 3rd Wave Serpent.
As for counters, pick any common 2 damage weapons. A 3 dissie cannon Ravager (125 points) can reasonably expect to kill 2 Spears a turn, when they aren’t -2 to hit and have a 3++. 3 Ravagers therefore ruin a squad. (Ravagers also have the advantage of always making the first move vs Spears). At -2 to hit and a 3++, sure they will struggle to kill 1 each, but that is to be expected.
2 Guard squads using FRFSRF will kill 3 Spears. 40 points, or 50 points, it doesn’t matter.
2 AssCan Razorbacks will kill 3.5 Spears when re-rolling 1’s to hit and wound.
A turn 1 charging Daemon Prince with Warptime will kill 3 Spears then easily survive them falling back and shooting him.
8 Dark Reapers (cheaper than 9 Spears) will shoot 4 Spears off the table a turn.
I’m not saying Spears are bad. Not by a long long stretch, but spamming them won’t win you tournaments – especially against the current soup lists.
Spears require a lot of moving parts to be fully effective. The moment you miss 1 or 2 of those parts, then they really start to struggle.
If you want to balance Spears, then you HAVE to do it from a Craftworlds ONLY point of view. You CANNOT balance a Craftworlds unit around an ability from a different codex. If that ability is what is causing the imbalance, then you target the ability first. Nerfing 1 unit, because of an ability in a different codex just unnecessarily nerfs the unit when used for its original purpose. At that point you are hurting Craftworlds to spite Ynnari, rather than just hurt Ynnari.
I’d wager that the 14 Grotesques, 20 Guardians and the Yncarne in Nick Nanavati’s list had more impact on the games than 9 Spears using 4CP a turn to re-roll hits of 1 in combat and potentially fighting twice vs a Doomed target.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: How is a GL worse than a LR? A GL is d6 shots of the 3 strength, 24" distance, and 1 damage, with the potential to upgrade to anti-tankish role, and it's assault.
A LR is 24 inches of rf1, with the potential to be rapid fire two, so at max it's 2-4 shots of 4 str, 24" 1 dmg. That 1 strength is REALLY the kickass boost to get over the added benefits of the GL?
This is why people dismiss your arguments, because you make thoughtless statements like this. You parrot whiney crap and you have no real experience in the game. My GL's earn their points back and then some, every game.
I'm glad you could be bothered to type this out. I wanted to but it's so exhausting.
The worst thing is that tournament-winning people like KDash write intelligent and well-reasoned arguments which people completely ignore just to continue wittering on about how Infantry Squads are mathematically OP and breaking the whole game.
Haha, thanks. I try. If it changes the opinion of 1 person or helps them think a bit more, then I’m happy.
Either that or I’m becoming masochistic lol!
Exalted. Great post and good reasoning. This exactly matches my experience with shining spears, just from the other side of the table. A good deny roll in the wrong moment (Doom or Protect) and the glass cannon simply breaks apart.
The post is also BS.
Talking about +1 to hit +1 to wounds spells than no one freaking uses. And how deepstriking 20 gardians is actaully better than spears...LOL. The gak people say to keep their stuff from getting nerfed is laughable. All you need is guide and doom - You are hitting on 3's and you have str 6 in CC - it is more than enough to deal with even t8 targets - as I have pointed out with math shown. "Spears aren't game breaking" Quote of the day man.
Spirit seers take protect and quicken. That is all they will ever take if you have 2 warlocks or seers (you likely wont have more). Deep striking 20 gardians is good. I do it all the time. That might nuke 1 target - spears nuke 1 or 2 targets then tie up a ton of stuff and are indestructible - that is a big difference for only 100 more points and no required deep strike stratagem to get into position.
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
When I see people talking about how really "bad" and hard to use are units like Shinning spears, Infantry Squads, Custodes, BA captains and how they really aren't that powerfull...
And I'm here, with my 90 point 5 man squad of DA Company Veterans with Stormbolters+Chainswords, thinking "Woah man, what a great anti-horde unit they are"... how playing with only the most OP stuff warps your perception of whats powerfull and whats not.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/09/07 14:05:11
Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.
ERJAK wrote: Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.
Galas wrote: When I see people talking about how really "bad" and hard to use are units like Shinning spears, Infantry Squads, Custodes, BA captains and how they really aren't that powerfull...
And I'm here, with my 90 point 5 man squad of DA Company Veterans with Stormbolters+Chainswords, thinking "Woah man, what a great anti-horde unit they are"... how playing with only the most OP stuff warps your perception of whats powerfull and whats not.
Next to smash captain dumping 7 CP....they aren't game breakingly OP. LOL. What does smash captain do? "oh he 1 shots 600 point titans and costs 130 points".
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
In January I ran Craftworld Eldar at a 6 game Major in the UK. I didn’t include Dark Reapers because I hated the spam, and I didn’t run Ynnari because I wanted to prove a point at the time.
My list included 1 unit of 9 Spears, and 1 unit of 3 spears acting as a bodyguard for my Autarch Warlord. I ran them as Saim-Hann.
The Spears were good, in most games, but certainly not game breaking at the time (this was when you could deep strike turn 1 and then Quicken for 22” move and then charge). The times the Spears were excellent were the times that I got +1 to hit in combat, +1 to wound in combat, -1 to hit, +1 saves power cast on unit and then Doom cast on the target. Which, by the way…. Requires 1 Farseer Jetbike, 2 Warlock Jetbikes AND 2 Spiritseers. I also had a couple of Hemlocks for Jinx if needed. That, I’m sure you’ll appreciate, is a lot of point, power and CP investment to ensure everything lines up correctly. (686 points, 896 if you include 1 hemlock – then 1 CP for farseer/warlock stratagem. 1 CP for advance and charge and re-roll 1’s to hit in combat stratagem. Then, 2 cp for -1 to hit, maybe 1 CP for deepstriking)
Throughout the event, I discovered that deepstriking 20 Guardians and a Farseer was more optimal than deepstriking the Spears, so that led me to just deploying the Spears. However, in 1 game vs Chaos, my 9-man Spear unit was reduced to 4 models on turn 1, after a unit of 40 Alpha Legion cultists came in and shot them twice. (which, by the way, costs 160 points). After that they were severely neutered and got nowhere close to making back their points investment.
In other games, where I only got 1 or 2 powers off on them, they were ok. For anything with T7+, they needed Doom to be cast on the target, otherwise they really struggled to put out effective damage.
However, in the one game vs 13 Guard Tanks with infantry screening, they got the full buffs, and his entire shooting phase only killed 3 Spears.
But, that was 1 game out of 6.
The moment they don’t kill their target in combat, or if they can get counter charged, then, they suck. And they die quickly. Doesn’t matter if the weapon is -4AP and 2 damage a time if they are hitting on 3’s and only str 3 and they will only have a 2+ save with protect or a 3+ save without it.
When we look at things now, they have to start on the table due to the deepstrike nerf, preferably out of LoS. They can’t advance and charge unless you run them as Saim-Hann. They still die to weight of dice unless you pump in hundreds of points worth of protection and CP. They still die in combat. And, when all that is done and considered, they still only have a 6” and a 12” range on their weapons. Sure, it gives their Shuriken Catapults a 28”-34” threat range, but we all know how good 36 bolter shots are (even if 4 of them wound with -3ap).
Spears are good when you pile points into them, which gets amplified by the ability to get a bonus fight or shooting phase via Ynnari. But, when they don’t have their support in place, or get charged themselves, they really struggle.
If Ynnari didn’t exist, Spears would still be taken because they are a good unit out of a selection of many bad ones. But, taking more than 1 big squad of them is, imo, just a waste of points. 1 unit will get buffed and be pretty resilient and killy, the other 2 units will just be waiting for unit 1 to die, so they can get the buffs to start making their points back.
If you are taking Shining Spears for anti-infantry alone, I’d say stop and just swap the 281 points for 2 triple cannon Wave Serpents. Sure, it’s half the shots, but, the Serpent is going to benefit more from Alaitocs trait, has higher str shots, double the range AND is more resilient/effective after losing some wounds. Also, it then allows you to drop a lot of the supporting powers, which will likely free up space for a 3rd Wave Serpent.
As for counters, pick any common 2 damage weapons. A 3 dissie cannon Ravager (125 points) can reasonably expect to kill 2 Spears a turn, when they aren’t -2 to hit and have a 3++. 3 Ravagers therefore ruin a squad. (Ravagers also have the advantage of always making the first move vs Spears). At -2 to hit and a 3++, sure they will struggle to kill 1 each, but that is to be expected.
2 Guard squads using FRFSRF will kill 3 Spears. 40 points, or 50 points, it doesn’t matter.
2 AssCan Razorbacks will kill 3.5 Spears when re-rolling 1’s to hit and wound.
A turn 1 charging Daemon Prince with Warptime will kill 3 Spears then easily survive them falling back and shooting him.
8 Dark Reapers (cheaper than 9 Spears) will shoot 4 Spears off the table a turn.
I’m not saying Spears are bad. Not by a long long stretch, but spamming them won’t win you tournaments – especially against the current soup lists.
Spears require a lot of moving parts to be fully effective. The moment you miss 1 or 2 of those parts, then they really start to struggle.
If you want to balance Spears, then you HAVE to do it from a Craftworlds ONLY point of view. You CANNOT balance a Craftworlds unit around an ability from a different codex. If that ability is what is causing the imbalance, then you target the ability first. Nerfing 1 unit, because of an ability in a different codex just unnecessarily nerfs the unit when used for its original purpose. At that point you are hurting Craftworlds to spite Ynnari, rather than just hurt Ynnari.
I’d wager that the 14 Grotesques, 20 Guardians and the Yncarne in Nick Nanavati’s list had more impact on the games than 9 Spears using 4CP a turn to re-roll hits of 1 in combat and potentially fighting twice vs a Doomed target.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: How is a GL worse than a LR? A GL is d6 shots of the 3 strength, 24" distance, and 1 damage, with the potential to upgrade to anti-tankish role, and it's assault.
A LR is 24 inches of rf1, with the potential to be rapid fire two, so at max it's 2-4 shots of 4 str, 24" 1 dmg. That 1 strength is REALLY the kickass boost to get over the added benefits of the GL?
This is why people dismiss your arguments, because you make thoughtless statements like this. You parrot whiney crap and you have no real experience in the game. My GL's earn their points back and then some, every game.
I'm glad you could be bothered to type this out. I wanted to but it's so exhausting.
The worst thing is that tournament-winning people like KDash write intelligent and well-reasoned arguments which people completely ignore just to continue wittering on about how Infantry Squads are mathematically OP and breaking the whole game.
Haha, thanks. I try. If it changes the opinion of 1 person or helps them think a bit more, then I’m happy.
Either that or I’m becoming masochistic lol!
Exalted. Great post and good reasoning. This exactly matches my experience with shining spears, just from the other side of the table. A good deny roll in the wrong moment (Doom or Protect) and the glass cannon simply breaks apart.
The post is also BS.
Talking about +1 to hit +1 to wounds spells than no one freaking uses. And how deepstriking 20 gardians is actaully better than spears...LOL. The gak people say to keep their stuff from getting nerfed is laughable. All you need is guide and doom - You are hitting on 3's and you have str 6 in CC - it is more than enough to deal with even t8 targets - as I have pointed out with math shown. "Spears aren't game breaking" Quote of the day man.
Spirit seers take protect and quicken. That is all they will ever take if you have 2 warlocks or seers (you likely wont have more). Deep striking 20 gardians is good. I do it all the time. That might nuke 1 target - spears nuke 1 or 2 targets then tie up a ton of stuff and are indestructible - that is a big difference for only 100 more points and no required deep strike stratagem to get into position.
The cool thing about guardians, they can have a 3++ on a 20man unit.
DS > Protect >Shoot > enemy targets to shoots them > spend 1CP to gain 4+ (Protect gain 3++, sure its just shooting phase, but that could be a fully wasted shooting unit against them. And with FIre and Fade you can stay out of Melee for the most part (or force them to move where they dont want too).
Also, people saying that Smash Captain is fine in pure BA... I remember you how before Deepstrike nerf, BA where winning top tables.
Smash Captain is OP no matter how you look at it. That does not mean BA don't need buffs. Just like Shining Spears, Dissi cannons or Infantry Squads being OP does not mean others units in their codex don't need buffs.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/09/07 14:16:18
Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.
ERJAK wrote: Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.
In January I ran Craftworld Eldar at a 6 game Major in the UK. I didn’t include Dark Reapers because I hated the spam, and I didn’t run Ynnari because I wanted to prove a point at the time.
My list included 1 unit of 9 Spears, and 1 unit of 3 spears acting as a bodyguard for my Autarch Warlord. I ran them as Saim-Hann.
The Spears were good, in most games, but certainly not game breaking at the time (this was when you could deep strike turn 1 and then Quicken for 22” move and then charge). The times the Spears were excellent were the times that I got +1 to hit in combat, +1 to wound in combat, -1 to hit, +1 saves power cast on unit and then Doom cast on the target. Which, by the way…. Requires 1 Farseer Jetbike, 2 Warlock Jetbikes AND 2 Spiritseers. I also had a couple of Hemlocks for Jinx if needed. That, I’m sure you’ll appreciate, is a lot of point, power and CP investment to ensure everything lines up correctly. (686 points, 896 if you include 1 hemlock – then 1 CP for farseer/warlock stratagem. 1 CP for advance and charge and re-roll 1’s to hit in combat stratagem. Then, 2 cp for -1 to hit, maybe 1 CP for deepstriking)
Throughout the event, I discovered that deepstriking 20 Guardians and a Farseer was more optimal than deepstriking the Spears, so that led me to just deploying the Spears. However, in 1 game vs Chaos, my 9-man Spear unit was reduced to 4 models on turn 1, after a unit of 40 Alpha Legion cultists came in and shot them twice. (which, by the way, costs 160 points). After that they were severely neutered and got nowhere close to making back their points investment.
In other games, where I only got 1 or 2 powers off on them, they were ok. For anything with T7+, they needed Doom to be cast on the target, otherwise they really struggled to put out effective damage.
However, in the one game vs 13 Guard Tanks with infantry screening, they got the full buffs, and his entire shooting phase only killed 3 Spears.
But, that was 1 game out of 6.
The moment they don’t kill their target in combat, or if they can get counter charged, then, they suck. And they die quickly. Doesn’t matter if the weapon is -4AP and 2 damage a time if they are hitting on 3’s and only str 3 and they will only have a 2+ save with protect or a 3+ save without it.
When we look at things now, they have to start on the table due to the deepstrike nerf, preferably out of LoS. They can’t advance and charge unless you run them as Saim-Hann. They still die to weight of dice unless you pump in hundreds of points worth of protection and CP. They still die in combat. And, when all that is done and considered, they still only have a 6” and a 12” range on their weapons. Sure, it gives their Shuriken Catapults a 28”-34” threat range, but we all know how good 36 bolter shots are (even if 4 of them wound with -3ap).
Spears are good when you pile points into them, which gets amplified by the ability to get a bonus fight or shooting phase via Ynnari. But, when they don’t have their support in place, or get charged themselves, they really struggle.
If Ynnari didn’t exist, Spears would still be taken because they are a good unit out of a selection of many bad ones. But, taking more than 1 big squad of them is, imo, just a waste of points. 1 unit will get buffed and be pretty resilient and killy, the other 2 units will just be waiting for unit 1 to die, so they can get the buffs to start making their points back.
If you are taking Shining Spears for anti-infantry alone, I’d say stop and just swap the 281 points for 2 triple cannon Wave Serpents. Sure, it’s half the shots, but, the Serpent is going to benefit more from Alaitocs trait, has higher str shots, double the range AND is more resilient/effective after losing some wounds. Also, it then allows you to drop a lot of the supporting powers, which will likely free up space for a 3rd Wave Serpent.
As for counters, pick any common 2 damage weapons. A 3 dissie cannon Ravager (125 points) can reasonably expect to kill 2 Spears a turn, when they aren’t -2 to hit and have a 3++. 3 Ravagers therefore ruin a squad. (Ravagers also have the advantage of always making the first move vs Spears). At -2 to hit and a 3++, sure they will struggle to kill 1 each, but that is to be expected.
2 Guard squads using FRFSRF will kill 3 Spears. 40 points, or 50 points, it doesn’t matter.
2 AssCan Razorbacks will kill 3.5 Spears when re-rolling 1’s to hit and wound.
A turn 1 charging Daemon Prince with Warptime will kill 3 Spears then easily survive them falling back and shooting him.
8 Dark Reapers (cheaper than 9 Spears) will shoot 4 Spears off the table a turn.
I’m not saying Spears are bad. Not by a long long stretch, but spamming them won’t win you tournaments – especially against the current soup lists.
Spears require a lot of moving parts to be fully effective. The moment you miss 1 or 2 of those parts, then they really start to struggle.
If you want to balance Spears, then you HAVE to do it from a Craftworlds ONLY point of view. You CANNOT balance a Craftworlds unit around an ability from a different codex. If that ability is what is causing the imbalance, then you target the ability first. Nerfing 1 unit, because of an ability in a different codex just unnecessarily nerfs the unit when used for its original purpose. At that point you are hurting Craftworlds to spite Ynnari, rather than just hurt Ynnari.
I’d wager that the 14 Grotesques, 20 Guardians and the Yncarne in Nick Nanavati’s list had more impact on the games than 9 Spears using 4CP a turn to re-roll hits of 1 in combat and potentially fighting twice vs a Doomed target.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: How is a GL worse than a LR? A GL is d6 shots of the 3 strength, 24" distance, and 1 damage, with the potential to upgrade to anti-tankish role, and it's assault.
A LR is 24 inches of rf1, with the potential to be rapid fire two, so at max it's 2-4 shots of 4 str, 24" 1 dmg. That 1 strength is REALLY the kickass boost to get over the added benefits of the GL?
This is why people dismiss your arguments, because you make thoughtless statements like this. You parrot whiney crap and you have no real experience in the game. My GL's earn their points back and then some, every game.
I'm glad you could be bothered to type this out. I wanted to but it's so exhausting.
The worst thing is that tournament-winning people like KDash write intelligent and well-reasoned arguments which people completely ignore just to continue wittering on about how Infantry Squads are mathematically OP and breaking the whole game.
Haha, thanks. I try. If it changes the opinion of 1 person or helps them think a bit more, then I’m happy.
Either that or I’m becoming masochistic lol!
Exalted. Great post and good reasoning. This exactly matches my experience with shining spears, just from the other side of the table. A good deny roll in the wrong moment (Doom or Protect) and the glass cannon simply breaks apart.
The post is also BS.
Talking about +1 to hit +1 to wounds spells than no one freaking uses. And how deepstriking 20 gardians is actaully better than spears...LOL. The gak people say to keep their stuff from getting nerfed is laughable. All you need is guide and doom - You are hitting on 3's and you have str 6 in CC - it is more than enough to deal with even t8 targets - as I have pointed out with math shown. "Spears aren't game breaking" Quote of the day man.
Spirit seers take protect and quicken. That is all they will ever take if you have 2 warlocks or seers (you likely wont have more). Deep striking 20 gardians is good. I do it all the time. That might nuke 1 target - spears nuke 1 or 2 targets then tie up a ton of stuff and are indestructible - that is a big difference for only 100 more points and no required deep strike stratagem to get into position.
The cool thing about guardians, they can have a 3++ on a 20man unit.
DS > Protect >Shoot > enemy targets to shoots them > spend 1CP to gain 4+ (Protect gain 3++, sure its just shooting phase, but that could be a fully wasted shooting unit against them. And with FIre and Fade you can stay out of Melee for the most part (or force them to move where they dont want too).
Yeah I do that - because I don't use spears. You will always buff spears over gardians though.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Galas wrote: Also, people saying that Smash Captain is fine in pure BA... I remember you how before Deepstrike nerf, BA where winning top tables.
Smash Captain is OP no matter how you look at it. That does not mean BA don't need buffs. Just like Shining Spears, Dissi cannons or Infantry Squads being OP does not mean others units in their codex don't need buffs.
Yeah - honestly I think he is the most broken part of the game right now. Too many attacks.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/09/07 14:24:56
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
I think we can all agree that the next CA will be very interesting, and if done in an aggressive manner, will properly show what was overpowered or not. Nothing to do but to look forward to whatever changes are in store for us.
Galas wrote: Also, people saying that Smash Captain is fine in pure BA... I remember you how before Deepstrike nerf, BA where winning top tables.
Smash Captain is OP no matter how you look at it. That does not mean BA don't need buffs. Just like Shining Spears, Dissi cannons or Infantry Squads being OP does not mean others units in their codex don't need buffs.
Honestly, Blood Angels getting a more durable HQ than either Salamanders or Iron Hands is a total slap in the face to those armies.
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
Eldarsif wrote: I think we can all agree that the next CA will be very interesting, and if done in an aggressive manner, will properly show what was overpowered or not. Nothing to do but to look forward to whatever changes are in store for us.
I can't wait for us Orks to have something broken in our codex but it's too late because CA is already printed and nothing can be done until the next CA. MwahahaWAAAAAGGGGGHHHHHH!!!!
Then again I'll still play Evil Sunz properly (all mechanised, all bikes) so likely my army will remain third rate!
Seriously you're right though, I really hope they are aggressive with their changes to really shake up the meta. Remember, no matter how awful your favourite unit is now, if you wait long enough, eventually it'll become OP against a certain meta.
Eldarsif wrote: I think we can all agree that the next CA will be very interesting, and if done in an aggressive manner, will properly show what was overpowered or not. Nothing to do but to look forward to whatever changes are in store for us.
I have no faith in them when it comes to 40k and changes regarding tournaments. I don't know why they talk with the tournament players rather than just do data analysis. It's probably just going to be another round of half-assed Guard nerfs instead of focusing on the issue of soup.
We never should have seen the Commissar and Conscript nerfs we did. We should have seen Conscripts get "Auxilia" as a keyword(preventing them from being able to receive Orders instead of the half-assed "Raw Recruits" rule) instead of <Regiment>. We should have seen Commissars remain as they were--since we've seen multiple books since then with the same damn ability as a trait rather than requiring a single specific character.
Galas wrote: Also, people saying that Smash Captain is fine in pure BA... I remember you how before Deepstrike nerf, BA where winning top tables.
Smash Captain is OP no matter how you look at it. That does not mean BA don't need buffs. Just like Shining Spears, Dissi cannons or Infantry Squads being OP does not mean others units in their codex don't need buffs.
Honestly, Blood Angels getting a more durable HQ than either Salamanders or Iron Hands is a total slap in the face to those armies.
I'm still waiting for actual proof that Infantry Squads are overpowered to the same extent as Captain Smashfeth. They're cheap and they fill a role in enabling overpowered lists via filling Troop choices in Brigades/Battalions...but I've yet to see actual proof of the squads themselves being OP.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/09/07 16:46:03
Eldarsif wrote: I think we can all agree that the next CA will be very interesting, and if done in an aggressive manner, will properly show what was overpowered or not. Nothing to do but to look forward to whatever changes are in store for us.
I have no faith in them when it comes to 40k and changes regarding tournaments. I don't know why they talk with the tournament players rather than just do data analysis. It's probably just going to be another round of half-assed Guard nerfs instead of focusing on the issue of soup.
We never should have seen the Commissar and Conscript nerfs we did. We should have seen Conscripts get "Auxilia" as a keyword(preventing them from being able to receive Orders instead of the half-assed "Raw Recruits" rule) instead of <Regiment>. We should have seen Commissars remain as they were--since we've seen multiple books since then with the same damn ability as a trait rather than requiring a single specific character.
Galas wrote: Also, people saying that Smash Captain is fine in pure BA... I remember you how before Deepstrike nerf, BA where winning top tables.
Smash Captain is OP no matter how you look at it. That does not mean BA don't need buffs. Just like Shining Spears, Dissi cannons or Infantry Squads being OP does not mean others units in their codex don't need buffs.
Honestly, Blood Angels getting a more durable HQ than either Salamanders or Iron Hands is a total slap in the face to those armies.
I'm still waiting for actual proof that Infantry Squads are overpowered to the same extent as Captain Smashfeth. They're cheap and they fill a role in enabling overpowered lists via filling Troop choices in Brigades/Battalions...but I've yet to see actual proof of the squads themselves being OP.
They aren't as OP as smash feth. I am convinced right now he is probably the most OP unit+combo in the game right now. Funny thing is without those stratagems/ relics hes not that good. So I'd deal with both units differently - Say - a unit can only use 1 stratagem per turn or something - that would fix smash feth. Increase guardsmen +1 point - and CC to 10 - that fixes guard and soup at the same time.
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
Smash captain is too strong. But he's not even close to the most OP unit in the game.
Units that are pretty much fine, that draw a lot of hate here:
1. Shining Spears - these are totally fine in the context of pure CWE. Only once you add Ynarri into the mix do they become OP (46" charge + Soulburst is dumb, but without Soulburst it's like eating a Gallant to the face).
2. Disintigrator Cannons - nothing about these is OP, they just work well in the context of an Eldar soup list. They are outpaced in a lot of common scenarios by assault cannons, and don't have easy access to rerolls like SM do. In a pure DE army, these are solid but not OP.
3. Smash Captain - Strong, but easily killed. A T4, 3++ model is durable, and he is killy, but what do you expect, this is one of the few viable marine units right now. I have no problems with it, especially in the context of a marines list.
Units that are absolutely not fine and should be adjusted:
1. Grotesques - They are far too durable.
2. Hemlock Wraithfighters - These are absolutely disgusting
3. Imperial Knights, Superheavies in general - A shadowsword, a Castellan, it's all too strong.
4. Custode Bikes, Captains and Otherwise - These are bonkers and absolutely should not be FLY. A hurricane bolter on each? Get out.
General things to change:
1. CP farming - Detachments earn command points to be spent on that faction only. Or, you only produce CP from the detachment with your warlord, or a detachment that shares his keyword.
2. Ynarri - These guys are broken strong, believe it or not, their win percentage is over 70% across BCP data. A simple change would be that Ynnari units lose their other faction. For instance, no more Sam Hein Ynnari or Alaitoc Ynnari. It's just Ynnari. This would also further impact Cp generation with suggestion #1, deeply hampering Eldar soup without nerfing CWE or DE, which are both fine on their own.
My main army is Tyranids, which are performing right now similar to marines. For those seeking the typical ad hominem, now you know what army to reference in your reply.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/09/07 17:12:33
Galas wrote: I remember when Marmatag was a nooby, all shiney and full of joy. How playing the unbalanced mess of Warhammer40k in a ultra-competitive meta has changed you
Bharring wrote: He'll actually *change his mind* in the presence of sufficient/sufficiently defended information. Heretic.
They aren't as OP as smash feth. I am convinced right now he is probably the most OP unit+combo in the game right now. Funny thing is without those stratagems/ relics hes not that good. So I'd deal with both units differently - Say - a unit can only use 1 stratagem per turn or something - that would fix smash feth. Increase guardsmen +1 point - and CC to 10 - that fixes guard and soup at the same time.
Why do we need to go to 1 strategum per unit per turn that breaks a lot of other things that are fine as is.
Keep the changes as simple as possible if you have to creat lots of collateral damage or weird exclusions, it's probably not the correct fix for the problem.
Slamguinius is built on stacking massive amounts of CP in strategums to build a monster, if the results excessive one or two of those strategums is probably undercosted. Add a CP or two and it's a 1 off all your CP trick.
(Or it would be if Guard hadn't broken CP)
Make Grand Strategists and Kurov's no longer allowed to be selected for matched play.
(Soup is still stronger than mono codex and has no downside)
Wait no-one has infinite CP, The Battle forged CP is common to everyone?
If your army is battle forged and is not linked by Imperium, Choas or Aeldari Keyword you get +3* CP.
*The additional advantage is if soup is still overpowering mono we can adjust the battle forged CP bonus up or down as required.
Marmatag wrote: 2. Disintigrator Cannons - nothing about these is OP, they just work well in the context of an Eldar soup list. They are outpaced in a lot of common scenarios by assault cannons, and don't have easy access to rerolls like SM do. In a pure DE army, these are solid but not OP.
My main army is Tyranids, which are performing right now similar to marines. For those seeking the typical ad hominem, now you know what army to reference in your reply.
My main army is DE and ravagers are almost always going to be rerolling 1s to hit and wound, boosting their mathematical effectiveness by about a third, and making them extremely reliable and efficient versus almost any target but Guardsmen. Doom etc is a great help for mowing down T6+ targets - but then this isn't free.
Disies will go up 5 points. If they go back up 10 they will be bad.
Prophets of Flesh needs to be changed to rerolling 1s or something, not a flat 4++.
DE in a way are quite simple and the power, and eventual nerfs, were obvious from when the codex was first leaked.
Someone uoset might make Kabalites 7 points, but mass Kabs remains not a thing.
Eldarsif wrote: I think we can all agree that the next CA will be very interesting, and if done in an aggressive manner, will properly show what was overpowered or not. Nothing to do but to look forward to whatever changes are in store for us.
I have no faith in them when it comes to 40k and changes regarding tournaments. I don't know why they talk with the tournament players rather than just do data analysis. It's probably just going to be another round of half-assed Guard nerfs instead of focusing on the issue of soup.
We never should have seen the Commissar and Conscript nerfs we did. We should have seen Conscripts get "Auxilia" as a keyword(preventing them from being able to receive Orders instead of the half-assed "Raw Recruits" rule) instead of <Regiment>. We should have seen Commissars remain as they were--since we've seen multiple books since then with the same damn ability as a trait rather than requiring a single specific character.
Galas wrote: Also, people saying that Smash Captain is fine in pure BA... I remember you how before Deepstrike nerf, BA where winning top tables.
Smash Captain is OP no matter how you look at it. That does not mean BA don't need buffs. Just like Shining Spears, Dissi cannons or Infantry Squads being OP does not mean others units in their codex don't need buffs.
Honestly, Blood Angels getting a more durable HQ than either Salamanders or Iron Hands is a total slap in the face to those armies.
I'm still waiting for actual proof that Infantry Squads are overpowered to the same extent as Captain Smashfeth. They're cheap and they fill a role in enabling overpowered lists via filling Troop choices in Brigades/Battalions...but I've yet to see actual proof of the squads themselves being OP.
Based on the fact they were proven mathematically superior to a lot of other units and still keep showing up?
You remind me exactly of certain Scatterbikes defenders who kept saying that the Riptide Wings allied in or the Wraithknights were the issue.
Don't ignore the original issue by trying to distract us with something else that needs to be hit.
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
Based on the fact they were proven mathematically superior to a lot of other units and still keep showing up?
What other unit options are there for bulking out a Brigade to get your CP spam on? Skitarii Rangers? Vanguard? Kataphron? Tactical Marines? Conscripts? Scions?
You keep pointing at the math while ignoring that if we remove the ability to bring a Brigade of the frigging things and neuter the Command Point spam, it won't be as big of an issue. You keep pointing at the math while ignoring that if we remove the ability for a Company Commander to be the Warlord, Grand Strategist ceases to be an issue. You keep pointing at the math while ignoring that if we remove Mortars from Infantry Squads, the threat radius goes down.
Math is great and all but it doesn't actually give the whole picture in every circumstance.
You remind me exactly of certain Scatterbikes defenders who kept saying that the Riptide Wings allied in or the Wraithknights were the issue.
Don't ignore the original issue by trying to distract us with something else that needs to be hit.
Until I see actual attempts to address soup, I don't give a crap about your complaints about Guard. I want soup hit. My book already took a nerf, whether I used the models or not, because of whining about soup.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/09/07 19:09:55
Until I see actual attempts to address soup, I don't give a crap about your complaints about Guard. I want soup hit. My book already took a nerf, whether I used the models or not, because of whining about soup.
Back at you. I don't want my already questionable imperial mess to be nerfed because people keep bringing utterly broken gak from Guard dex.
Until I see actual attempts to address soup, I don't give a crap about your complaints about Guard. I want soup hit. My book already took a nerf, whether I used the models or not, because of whining about soup.
Back at you. I don't want my already questionable imperial mess to be nerfed because people keep bringing utterly broken gak from Guard dex.
And you still haven't actually proven what you're bringing couldn't be done without a Brigade or Battalion.
Post up.
Because quite frankly? Your soup's viability doesn't trump my codex's. You don't get to nerf my book because you want soup.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/09/07 19:16:20
Kanluwen wrote: Because quite frankly? Your soup's viability doesn't trump my codex's. You don't get to nerf my book because you want soup.
That's for GW to decide. And it is not like these nerfs are of similar magnitude, people want to get rid of CP regen*, a thing that you and many guard other players have said mono guard doesn't even need, and maybe bump the guardsmen cost by one point**. You on the other hand basically want to ban any allied army that draws roughly equally from several codices.
(*And at least I mean all CP regen, not just guard. Or if you want to be less sever, make it so that a battleforged army can ever have only one source of CP regen.)
(** It probably should be paired with point drops for under performing guard units.)
They aren't as OP as smash feth. I am convinced right now he is probably the most OP unit+combo in the game right now. Funny thing is without those stratagems/ relics hes not that good. So I'd deal with both units differently - Say - a unit can only use 1 stratagem per turn or something - that would fix smash feth. Increase guardsmen +1 point - and CC to 10 - that fixes guard and soup at the same time.
Why do we need to go to 1 strategum per unit per turn that breaks a lot of other things that are fine as is.
Keep the changes as simple as possible if you have to creat lots of collateral damage or weird exclusions, it's probably not the correct fix for the problem.
Slamguinius is built on stacking massive amounts of CP in strategums to build a monster, if the results excessive one or two of those strategums is probably undercosted. Add a CP or two and it's a 1 off all your CP trick.
(Or it would be if Guard hadn't broken CP)
Make Grand Strategists and Kurov's no longer allowed to be selected for matched play.
(Soup is still stronger than mono codex and has no downside)
Wait no-one has infinite CP, The Battle forged CP is common to everyone?
If your army is battle forged and is not linked by Imperium, Choas or Aeldari Keyword you get +3* CP.
*The additional advantage is if soup is still overpowering mono we can adjust the battle forged CP bonus up or down as required.
"Slamguinius is built on stacking massive amounts of CP in strategums to build a monster"
Why? There are almost no other situations I can think of where you have a unit playing 3-4 offensive stratagems a turn. It's usually 1 offensive and MAYBE one defensive if you get targeted and sometimes 2. If he is this strong why aren't all other marine captains this strong if he is "fine" LOL. Give me a break man. He is insanely broken and it mostly because he has stratagem that no one else does.
The only unit this would really affect is smash fether. Who really gets most of his power out of stacking stratagems.
Think about these game decisions you have to make now. Wouldn't that be an interesting feature against knights?Sure you can use the fight at full power stratagem for your castellan- but then you aren't using reroll ones and you aren't rerolling a crucial miss later in that turn. I think it's an elegant fix. Smash fether will still be stronger than regular captains because his +1 to wound base stat and 4 damage hammer will set him apart. Hell just stop being a cruise missile (which he was never intended to be anyways - judging by his reroll 1's aura) Like everyone other captain. He still will have access to the same stratagems - he just needs to pick one of them.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/09/07 19:36:32
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
Limiting units to one stratagem per turn would probably mostly be fine, though it would add an another thing to remember and keep track of. It is pretty easy to forget that you used a re-roll on some unit in an earlier phase.
Marmatag wrote: 2. Disintigrator Cannons - nothing about these is OP, they just work well in the context of an Eldar soup list. They are outpaced in a lot of common scenarios by assault cannons, and don't have easy access to rerolls like SM do. In a pure DE army, these are solid but not OP.
My main army is Tyranids, which are performing right now similar to marines. For those seeking the typical ad hominem, now you know what army to reference in your reply.
My main army is DE and ravagers are almost always going to be rerolling 1s to hit and wound, boosting their mathematical effectiveness by about a third, and making them extremely reliable and efficient versus almost any target but Guardsmen. Doom etc is a great help for mowing down T6+ targets - but then this isn't free.
Disies will go up 5 points. If they go back up 10 they will be bad. Prophets of Flesh needs to be changed to rerolling 1s or something, not a flat 4++.
DE in a way are quite simple and the power, and eventual nerfs, were obvious from when the codex was first leaked.
Someone uoset might make Kabalites 7 points, but mass Kabs remains not a thing.
I understand what you're saying, but you've already started talking about adding in Doom - which is a soup based addon. Archons can provide rerolls, but then you're talking about a sizable investment, because rule of 3 limits you greatly. That would be the entirety of your HQ pool in your Kabal, and these guys die really, really fast once that 2+ falls.
Prophets of Flesh is strong. I agree that there should be a change here.
Kabalites costing 7 points would be ridiculous. A battle sister is 9 points and has a 3+ armor save. Are we going to really say that 2 points should take you from a 5+ to a 3+? That's absurd.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/09/07 19:31:15
Galas wrote: I remember when Marmatag was a nooby, all shiney and full of joy. How playing the unbalanced mess of Warhammer40k in a ultra-competitive meta has changed you
Bharring wrote: He'll actually *change his mind* in the presence of sufficient/sufficiently defended information. Heretic.
Smash captain is too strong. But he's not even close to the most OP unit in the game.
Units that are pretty much fine, that draw a lot of hate here:
1. Shining Spears - these are totally fine in the context of pure CWE. Only once you add Ynarri into the mix do they become OP (46" charge + Soulburst is dumb, but without Soulburst it's like eating a Gallant to the face).
2. Disintigrator Cannons - nothing about these is OP, they just work well in the context of an Eldar soup list. They are outpaced in a lot of common scenarios by assault cannons, and don't have easy access to rerolls like SM do. In a pure DE army, these are solid but not OP.
3. Smash Captain - Strong, but easily killed. A T4, 3++ model is durable, and he is killy, but what do you expect, this is one of the few viable marine units right now. I have no problems with it, especially in the context of a marines list.
Units that are absolutely not fine and should be adjusted:
1. Grotesques - They are far too durable.
2. Hemlock Wraithfighters - These are absolutely disgusting
3. Imperial Knights, Superheavies in general - A shadowsword, a Castellan, it's all too strong.
4. Custode Bikes, Captains and Otherwise - These are bonkers and absolutely should not be FLY. A hurricane bolter on each? Get out.
General things to change:
1. CP farming - Detachments earn command points to be spent on that faction only. Or, you only produce CP from the detachment with your warlord, or a detachment that shares his keyword.
2. Ynarri - These guys are broken strong, believe it or not, their win percentage is over 70% across BCP data. A simple change would be that Ynnari units lose their other faction. For instance, no more Sam Hein Ynnari or Alaitoc Ynnari. It's just Ynnari. This would also further impact Cp generation with suggestion #1, deeply hampering Eldar soup without nerfing CWE or DE, which are both fine on their own.
My main army is Tyranids, which are performing right now similar to marines. For those seeking the typical ad hominem, now you know what army to reference in your reply.
It's funny how the things in your above list are actually much bigger problems than the bottom list. I will agree though - castellans and shadow-swords are too much.
Marmatag wrote: 2. Disintigrator Cannons - nothing about these is OP, they just work well in the context of an Eldar soup list. They are outpaced in a lot of common scenarios by assault cannons, and don't have easy access to rerolls like SM do. In a pure DE army, these are solid but not OP.
My main army is Tyranids, which are performing right now similar to marines. For those seeking the typical ad hominem, now you know what army to reference in your reply.
My main army is DE and ravagers are almost always going to be rerolling 1s to hit and wound, boosting their mathematical effectiveness by about a third, and making them extremely reliable and efficient versus almost any target but Guardsmen. Doom etc is a great help for mowing down T6+ targets - but then this isn't free.
Disies will go up 5 points. If they go back up 10 they will be bad.
Prophets of Flesh needs to be changed to rerolling 1s or something, not a flat 4++.
DE in a way are quite simple and the power, and eventual nerfs, were obvious from when the codex was first leaked.
Someone uoset might make Kabalites 7 points, but mass Kabs remains not a thing.
I understand what you're saying, but you've already started talking about adding in Doom - which is a soup based addon. Archons can provide rerolls, but then you're talking about a sizable investment, because rule of 3 limits you greatly. That would be the entirety of your HQ pool in your Kabal, and these guys die really, really fast once that 2+ falls.
Prophets of Flesh is strong. I agree that there should be a change here.
Kabalites costing 7 points would be ridiculous. A battle sister is 9 points and has a 3+ armor save. Are we going to really say that 2 points should take you from a 5+ to a 3+? That's absurd.
What? Archon only dies if you want him to. Character protection and fast as nutts transport make that pretty easy to do. Then dang...hes only got a 2++ save to protect him.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/09/07 19:35:06
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
If you think Smash Captain is as problematic for game balance as Custode Bikes or Hemlocks i don't know what to tell you.
Galas wrote: I remember when Marmatag was a nooby, all shiney and full of joy. How playing the unbalanced mess of Warhammer40k in a ultra-competitive meta has changed you
Bharring wrote: He'll actually *change his mind* in the presence of sufficient/sufficiently defended information. Heretic.
Marmatag wrote: If you think Smash Captain is as problematic for game balance as Custode Bikes or Hemlocks i don't know what to tell you.
Explain your case then - the hemlock costs almost double smash captain. Does About 1/4 of his damage. Yet is more broken? The bird averages 4 shots man - thats is not great. Crimson hunter is superior to it even and you aren't even mentioning it.
I don't have any problem with the regular custode bikes - 4++ save is tough to deal with but they are 90 points. Their stratagem is pretty brutal but its the only good stratagem in their whole codex. You have to shoot them - That isn't hard to do - if you can kill a hive tyrant you can kill 3 custode bikes...it's actually easier to do with most weapons and you get MORE points efficiency out of the deal. Bike captains are a bit more problematic. (at least hes not fighting twice...and does only d3 damage and not flat 3-4) and at least his threat range isn't the whole table - at least he can fail a charge - at least hes not rerolling wounds if you charge him. Smash captain is automatic kills after failed invos and hes fighting twice with almost double the attacks doing double the damage...
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/09/07 19:48:28
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
-2 to hit Moves anywhere on the board with ease Guaranteed hits at 16", strength what, 14? flat 2 It doesn't average 4 shots, it averages 4 hits. That's like 6 shots at BS3, or 8 shots at BS4. Can cast and deny psychic powers
This might not be a problem for you, but a lot of us struggle with these. Marines are better equipped to solve these problems than Tyranids, Necrons, Orks, Tau, Guard...
When 3 of these leap down your throat and start annihilating key targets on the board (since, you really can't stop them from going where they want), it's entirely different. Smash captains need to charge to do any damage. This just needs to use its ridiculous movespeed and find a spot to land. It's also funny when they cast 3 full smites a turn.
Marines can get long range shooting on a 2+ BS with rerolls. Also you can double-flakk to hit these bad boys on 3s (+1 signum, +1 strat) with full rerolls. Show me another codex that can do this.
This message was edited 6 times. Last update was at 2018/09/07 19:56:58
Galas wrote: I remember when Marmatag was a nooby, all shiney and full of joy. How playing the unbalanced mess of Warhammer40k in a ultra-competitive meta has changed you
Bharring wrote: He'll actually *change his mind* in the presence of sufficient/sufficiently defended information. Heretic.
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