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In January I ran Craftworld Eldar at a 6 game Major in the UK. I didn’t include Dark Reapers because I hated the spam, and I didn’t run Ynnari because I wanted to prove a point at the time.
My list included 1 unit of 9 Spears, and 1 unit of 3 spears acting as a bodyguard for my Autarch Warlord. I ran them as Saim-Hann.
The Spears were good, in most games, but certainly not game breaking at the time (this was when you could deep strike turn 1 and then Quicken for 22” move and then charge). The times the Spears were excellent were the times that I got +1 to hit in combat, +1 to wound in combat, -1 to hit, +1 saves power cast on unit and then Doom cast on the target. Which, by the way…. Requires 1 Farseer Jetbike, 2 Warlock Jetbikes AND 2 Spiritseers. I also had a couple of Hemlocks for Jinx if needed. That, I’m sure you’ll appreciate, is a lot of point, power and CP investment to ensure everything lines up correctly. (686 points, 896 if you include 1 hemlock – then 1 CP for farseer/warlock stratagem. 1 CP for advance and charge and re-roll 1’s to hit in combat stratagem. Then, 2 cp for -1 to hit, maybe 1 CP for deepstriking)
Throughout the event, I discovered that deepstriking 20 Guardians and a Farseer was more optimal than deepstriking the Spears, so that led me to just deploying the Spears. However, in 1 game vs Chaos, my 9-man Spear unit was reduced to 4 models on turn 1, after a unit of 40 Alpha Legion cultists came in and shot them twice. (which, by the way, costs 160 points). After that they were severely neutered and got nowhere close to making back their points investment.
In other games, where I only got 1 or 2 powers off on them, they were ok. For anything with T7+, they needed Doom to be cast on the target, otherwise they really struggled to put out effective damage.
However, in the one game vs 13 Guard Tanks with infantry screening, they got the full buffs, and his entire shooting phase only killed 3 Spears.
But, that was 1 game out of 6.
The moment they don’t kill their target in combat, or if they can get counter charged, then, they suck. And they die quickly. Doesn’t matter if the weapon is -4AP and 2 damage a time if they are hitting on 3’s and only str 3 and they will only have a 2+ save with protect or a 3+ save without it.
When we look at things now, they have to start on the table due to the deepstrike nerf, preferably out of LoS. They can’t advance and charge unless you run them as Saim-Hann. They still die to weight of dice unless you pump in hundreds of points worth of protection and CP. They still die in combat. And, when all that is done and considered, they still only have a 6” and a 12” range on their weapons. Sure, it gives their Shuriken Catapults a 28”-34” threat range, but we all know how good 36 bolter shots are (even if 4 of them wound with -3ap).
Spears are good when you pile points into them, which gets amplified by the ability to get a bonus fight or shooting phase via Ynnari. But, when they don’t have their support in place, or get charged themselves, they really struggle.
If Ynnari didn’t exist, Spears would still be taken because they are a good unit out of a selection of many bad ones. But, taking more than 1 big squad of them is, imo, just a waste of points. 1 unit will get buffed and be pretty resilient and killy, the other 2 units will just be waiting for unit 1 to die, so they can get the buffs to start making their points back.
If you are taking Shining Spears for anti-infantry alone, I’d say stop and just swap the 281 points for 2 triple cannon Wave Serpents. Sure, it’s half the shots, but, the Serpent is going to benefit more from Alaitocs trait, has higher str shots, double the range AND is more resilient/effective after losing some wounds. Also, it then allows you to drop a lot of the supporting powers, which will likely free up space for a 3rd Wave Serpent.
As for counters, pick any common 2 damage weapons. A 3 dissie cannon Ravager (125 points) can reasonably expect to kill 2 Spears a turn, when they aren’t -2 to hit and have a 3++. 3 Ravagers therefore ruin a squad. (Ravagers also have the advantage of always making the first move vs Spears). At -2 to hit and a 3++, sure they will struggle to kill 1 each, but that is to be expected.
2 Guard squads using FRFSRF will kill 3 Spears. 40 points, or 50 points, it doesn’t matter.
2 AssCan Razorbacks will kill 3.5 Spears when re-rolling 1’s to hit and wound.
A turn 1 charging Daemon Prince with Warptime will kill 3 Spears then easily survive them falling back and shooting him.
8 Dark Reapers (cheaper than 9 Spears) will shoot 4 Spears off the table a turn.
I’m not saying Spears are bad. Not by a long long stretch, but spamming them won’t win you tournaments – especially against the current soup lists.
Spears require a lot of moving parts to be fully effective. The moment you miss 1 or 2 of those parts, then they really start to struggle.
If you want to balance Spears, then you HAVE to do it from a Craftworlds ONLY point of view. You CANNOT balance a Craftworlds unit around an ability from a different codex. If that ability is what is causing the imbalance, then you target the ability first. Nerfing 1 unit, because of an ability in a different codex just unnecessarily nerfs the unit when used for its original purpose. At that point you are hurting Craftworlds to spite Ynnari, rather than just hurt Ynnari.
I’d wager that the 14 Grotesques, 20 Guardians and the Yncarne in Nick Nanavati’s list had more impact on the games than 9 Spears using 4CP a turn to re-roll hits of 1 in combat and potentially fighting twice vs a Doomed target.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: How is a GL worse than a LR? A GL is d6 shots of the 3 strength, 24" distance, and 1 damage, with the potential to upgrade to anti-tankish role, and it's assault.
A LR is 24 inches of rf1, with the potential to be rapid fire two, so at max it's 2-4 shots of 4 str, 24" 1 dmg. That 1 strength is REALLY the kickass boost to get over the added benefits of the GL?
This is why people dismiss your arguments, because you make thoughtless statements like this. You parrot whiney crap and you have no real experience in the game. My GL's earn their points back and then some, every game.
I'm glad you could be bothered to type this out. I wanted to but it's so exhausting.
The worst thing is that tournament-winning people like KDash write intelligent and well-reasoned arguments which people completely ignore just to continue wittering on about how Infantry Squads are mathematically OP and breaking the whole game.
Haha, thanks. I try. If it changes the opinion of 1 person or helps them think a bit more, then I’m happy.
Either that or I’m becoming masochistic lol!
Exalted. Great post and good reasoning. This exactly matches my experience with shining spears, just from the other side of the table. A good deny roll in the wrong moment (Doom or Protect) and the glass cannon simply breaks apart.
The post is also BS.
Talking about +1 to hit +1 to wounds spells than no one freaking uses. And how deepstriking 20 gardians is actaully better than spears...LOL. The gak people say to keep their stuff from getting nerfed is laughable. All you need is guide and doom - You are hitting on 3's and you have str 6 in CC - it is more than enough to deal with even t8 targets - as I have pointed out with math shown. "Spears aren't game breaking" Quote of the day man.
Spirit seers take protect and quicken. That is all they will ever take if you have 2 warlocks or seers (you likely wont have more). Deep striking 20 gardians is good. I do it all the time. That might nuke 1 target - spears nuke 1 or 2 targets then tie up a ton of stuff and are indestructible - that is a big difference for only 100 more points and no required deep strike stratagem to get into position.
First off, i haven't played my Craftworlds army since January, and i don't intend on doing so again anytime soon. So implying i'm saying all of this in an attempt not to get Shining Spears nerfed is nonsense.
I mentioned the +1 to hit and +1 to wound powers simply because of my experience using them with Spears. If my experience with the unit when it is buffed up to 15 rather than 11 was hit or miss, but mainly "reasonable", then i had grounds to make the comments i did.
Yes, i agree that Spears can, if they get slightly above average rolls, 1 shot a Castellan Knight with shooting and melee (average dice says 25.396 wounds) - but who is reasonably going to let you get 9 Spears within 6" range of a Castellan on turn 1 in a highly competitive game? Sure, 416 points should be able to kill most T8 targets, but beyond getting a Knight in the perfect situation, what T8 target is going to allow you to make those points back before the Spears get counter charged?
Spears are a glass hammer. In the perfect situation they hurt - as Ynnari they hurt even more, but they hardly roll over competitive lists. You seem to think that Spears are "indestructible" and will nuke high value targets every turn. The moment you charge 9 Spears into my lines, i will happily sacrifice a unit and then gladly remove them either with shooting if you failed protect from the Spiritseer, or in combat. If they don't charge, they are only strength 3, and they won't be re-rolling wounds against my charging units.
Spears are in a decent place when you look at the from a Craftworlds point of view. Craftworlds Shining Spear units aren't game breaking.
-2 to hit
Moves anywhere on the board with ease
Guaranteed hits at 16", strength what, 14? flat 2
Can cast and deny psychic powers
This might not be a problem for you, but a lot of us struggle with these. Marines are better equipped to solve these problems than Tyranids, Necrons, Orks, Tau, Guard...
Smash feth deep strikes and rerolls a 3d6 charge - his mobility is almost equal lets get real though - his mobility is enough to do his job
Str 12 - might as well be str 9 in most cases
So can farseers and spirit seers - it's nice they can get in range easy which is a nice feature. Jetbike farseer has not problem getting in range to deny though.
If a hemlock is shooting you - he's only going to be -1 to hit next turn - just like any flyer. He's only t6 with no invo save.
It's not a bad unit - it's great against tyranids because it has a good chance at 1 shotting a carnifex with a good roll and you don't want to charge one with a tyrant (just some advice - just charge it with the tyrant - you will drop the sucker) it's also good and hunting down and killing hive guard units hiding behind walls. IMO a crimson does this just as well and costs less and has the added benifit of not needing to get close to deal damage.
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
Marmatag wrote: If you think Smash Captain is as problematic for game balance as Custode Bikes or Hemlocks i don't know what to tell you.
Explain your case then - the hemlock costs almost double smash captain. Does About 1/4 of his damage. Yet is more broken? The bird averages 4 shots man - thats is not great. Crimson hunter is superior to it even and you aren't even mentioning it.
I don't have any problem with the regular custode bikes - 4++ save is tough to deal with but they are 90 points. Their stratagem is pretty brutal but its the only good stratagem in their whole codex. You have to shoot them - That isn't hard to do - if you can kill a hive tyrant you can kill 3 custode bikes...it's actually easier to do with most weapons and you get MORE points efficiency out of the deal. Bike captains are a bit more problematic. (at least hes not fighting twice...and does only d3 damage and not flat 3-4) and at least his threat range isn't the whole table - at least he can fail a charge - at least hes not rerolling wounds if you charge him. Smash captain is automatic kills after failed invos and hes fighting twice with almost double the attacks doing double the damage...
A Hemlock has so many more options available to it than a Smash Captain does.
Take away CP farming from a list with 3 Smash Captains in it, and the Smash Captain spam isn't overly threatening.
Generally in ITC, Hemlocks will score secondary points for you every turn, whilst also facilitating the scoring of primary points as well. Between their auto hitting str 12 weapons hitting (well killing in a lot of cases) at 16" range, their ability to target smites from behind screens due to their movement, ability to use Jinx, their -2 often, -3 to hit penalties on turn 1, their 6+++ and the often forgotten about leadership debuff, they are a lot harder to deal with than a Smash Captain charging into your lines.
So many of the units considered "OMG SO BROKEN" currently are only considered to be so far spending half a dozen cp every turn on them. As such, this points to CP being the problem not the units themselves.
Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.
ERJAK wrote: Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.
Galas wrote: Guys, guys guys... do you know that many different units can be OP at different degrees and in different ways at the same time...don't you?
Sure, if you read my post I think i outlined the difference quite nicely. Units can be strong - better than average - and not be OP.
Galas wrote: I remember when Marmatag was a nooby, all shiney and full of joy. How playing the unbalanced mess of Warhammer40k in a ultra-competitive meta has changed you
Bharring wrote: He'll actually *change his mind* in the presence of sufficient/sufficiently defended information. Heretic.
-2 to hit
Moves anywhere on the board with ease
Guaranteed hits at 16", strength what, 14? flat 2
Can cast and deny psychic powers
This might not be a problem for you, but a lot of us struggle with these. Marines are better equipped to solve these problems than Tyranids, Necrons, Orks, Tau, Guard...
Smash feth deep strikes and rerolls a 3d6 charge - his mobility is almost equal lets get real though - his mobility is enough to do his job
Str 12 - might as well be str 9 in most cases
So can farseers and spirit seers - it's nice they can get in range easy which is a nice feature. Jetbike farseer has not problem getting in range to deny though.
If a hemlock is shooting you - he's only going to be -1 to hit next turn - just like any flyer. He's only t6 with no invo save.
It's not a bad unit - it's great against tyranids because it has a good chance at 1 shotting a carnifex with a good roll and you don't want to charge one with a tyrant (just some advice - just charge it with the tyrant - you will drop the sucker) it's also good and hunting down and killing hive guard units hiding behind walls. IMO a crimson does this just as well and costs less and has the added benifit of not needing to get close to deal damage.
Depending on CP to deep strike then then perform a 3d6 charge, isn't the same level of mobility as a flyer. You likely get where you want to go initially, but it is also something that can be reasonably countered with screening.
In agree though, that str 12 practically means nothing against your T7 and T8 targets, but it plays a part in dealing with other flyers, DE transports and things like Death Guard etc.
Yes, there are other options in the armies for deny rolls. Hemlocks are just an additional option though should they be needed vs a psychic heavy force. Their mobility also allows your Farseers and Spiritseers more flexibility on positioning should you need it. When they carry Jinx, it also frees up power spots on your regular casters, for things like Quicken and Protect.
Depends on what you are shooting with the Hemlock, and whether it pops the stratagem. Heavy weapons will be at -2 regardless, as they will either need to move within 12" and thus take the movement penalty, or stay still and take the Alaitoc penalty. Sure, some screens might be in range, but, sure, go for it with the screens. T6, 12 wounds, 3+ save and a 6+ fnp, alongside a -1, -2 or -3 to hit penalty. It takes more to bring them down than you want to admit. (just like it could easily just take 2 lascannon shots if you get lucky)
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Galas wrote: Guys, guys guys... do you know that many different units can be OP at different degrees and in different ways at the same time...don't you?
Yes, the same unit can be either super OP or completely lack luster in loads of different situations. The problem we experience here though, is that people always pick that 1 outlying "OP" situation and ignore all the other situations when determining what is OP or not.
Rather than address the causes of those outlying situations, people always take aim at the unit itself.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/09/07 20:21:39
"Slamguinius is built on stacking massive amounts of CP in strategums to build a monster"
Why? There are almost no other situations I can think of where you have a unit playing 3-4 offensive stratagems a turn. It's usually 1 offensive and MAYBE one defensive if you get targeted and sometimes 2. If he is this strong why aren't all other marine captains this strong if he is "fine" LOL. Give me a break man. He is insanely broken and it mostly because he has stratagem that no one else does.
The only unit this would really affect is smash fether. Who really gets most of his power out of stacking stratagems.
Think about these game decisions you have to make now. Wouldn't that be an interesting feature against knights?Sure you can use the fight at full power stratagem for your castellan- but then you aren't using reroll ones and you aren't rerolling a crucial miss later in that turn. I think it's an elegant fix. Smash fether will still be stronger than regular captains because his +1 to wound base stat and 4 damage hammer will set him apart. Hell just stop being a cruise missile (which he was never intended to be anyways - judging by his reroll 1's aura) Like everyone other captain. He still will have access to the same stratagems - he just needs to pick one of them.
So Tau can use branched novacharge on a riptide then arn't allowed to use any other strategum that would effect the riptide for the rest of the turn so no ignores cover strategum because that would be OP.
Automatic repair for D3 wounds and using focoused fire to down that Castellan, not with that model your not.
Stacking Auspex Scan and Flakmissle on marines or hellfireshells clearly OP.
Thats the problem in trying to stop slamguinius you just screwed everyone else in the game.
If you want to nerf Slamguinius increase the CP cost of the strategums he needs, or limit their stacking.Use a scalpel instead of a shotgun. I also never said slamguinius was fine I just disagree on how to nerf him.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/09/07 20:24:31
Marmatag wrote: If you think Smash Captain is as problematic for game balance as Custode Bikes or Hemlocks i don't know what to tell you.
Explain your case then - the hemlock costs almost double smash captain. Does About 1/4 of his damage. Yet is more broken? The bird averages 4 shots man - thats is not great. Crimson hunter is superior to it even and you aren't even mentioning it.
I don't have any problem with the regular custode bikes - 4++ save is tough to deal with but they are 90 points. Their stratagem is pretty brutal but its the only good stratagem in their whole codex. You have to shoot them - That isn't hard to do - if you can kill a hive tyrant you can kill 3 custode bikes...it's actually easier to do with most weapons and you get MORE points efficiency out of the deal. Bike captains are a bit more problematic. (at least hes not fighting twice...and does only d3 damage and not flat 3-4) and at least his threat range isn't the whole table - at least he can fail a charge - at least hes not rerolling wounds if you charge him. Smash captain is automatic kills after failed invos and hes fighting twice with almost double the attacks doing double the damage...
A Hemlock has so many more options available to it than a Smash Captain does.
Take away CP farming from a list with 3 Smash Captains in it, and the Smash Captain spam isn't overly threatening.
Generally in ITC, Hemlocks will score secondary points for you every turn, whilst also facilitating the scoring of primary points as well. Between their auto hitting str 12 weapons hitting (well killing in a lot of cases) at 16" range, their ability to target smites from behind screens due to their movement, ability to use Jinx, their -2 often, -3 to hit penalties on turn 1, their 6+++ and the often forgotten about leadership debuff, they are a lot harder to deal with than a Smash Captain charging into your lines.
So many of the units considered "OMG SO BROKEN" currently are only considered to be so far spending half a dozen cp every turn on them. As such, this points to CP being the problem not the units themselves.
Secondary points are irrelevant - they are made up house rules. They have nothing to do with game balance.
Lets also not forget a hemlock costs 80 points more than a smash captain. And smash captain 1 shots a hemlock with little effort (it doesn't even need to fight twice). 3 CP is all he needs to spend to reliably kill a hemlock. Leadership debuff is also a nice feature. I used it to kill a single fire warrior the other day - It was one of the first times I saw a model die to leadership in 8th edition.
"Slamguinius is built on stacking massive amounts of CP in strategums to build a monster"
Why? There are almost no other situations I can think of where you have a unit playing 3-4 offensive stratagems a turn. It's usually 1 offensive and MAYBE one defensive if you get targeted and sometimes 2. If he is this strong why aren't all other marine captains this strong if he is "fine" LOL. Give me a break man. He is insanely broken and it mostly because he has stratagem that no one else does.
The only unit this would really affect is smash fether. Who really gets most of his power out of stacking stratagems.
Think about these game decisions you have to make now. Wouldn't that be an interesting feature against knights?Sure you can use the fight at full power stratagem for your castellan- but then you aren't using reroll ones and you aren't rerolling a crucial miss later in that turn. I think it's an elegant fix. Smash fether will still be stronger than regular captains because his +1 to wound base stat and 4 damage hammer will set him apart. Hell just stop being a cruise missile (which he was never intended to be anyways - judging by his reroll 1's aura) Like everyone other captain. He still will have access to the same stratagems - he just needs to pick one of them.
So Tau can use branched novacharge on a riptide then arn't allowed to use any other strategum that would effect the riptide for the rest of the turn so no ignores cover strategum because that would be OP.
Automatic repair for D3 wounds and using focoused fire to down that Castellan, not with that riptide your not.
Stacking Auspex Scan and Flakmissle on marines or hellfireshells clearly OP.
Thats the problem in trying to stop slamguinius you just screwed everyone else in the game.
If you want to nerf Slamguinius increase the CP cost of the strategums he needs, or limit their stacking.Use a scalpel instead of a shotgun.
No one is going to waste their CP on auspex scan hellfire missles firing at a -1 to to hit. Nor is anyone going to deep strike within 12 of a devestator squad anyways. So this is how far you have to dig to thing of units using multiple offensive strats in a turn.
I said stratagem per unit. Focus fire is a stratagem that targets an enemy unit. Yeah - the riptide would have to chose one turn if he wanted to repair or have a 3++...this seems reasonable actually. Or he can just bring a repair drone from forge world and do all of this at the same time.
Like with the archon shadowfeild he can't reroll the 2++ - I guess someone at GW said...that might be too powerful if you can just reroll the failed 2++ every turn. Think about death grip - it's okay to get a reroll on deathgrips to hit roll? It's probably going to automatically kill a character for 1 CP. Does it really need to do that even better?
Galas wrote: Guys, guys guys... do you know that many different units can be OP at different degrees and in different ways at the same time...don't you?
Sure, if you read my post I think i outlined the difference quite nicely. Units can be strong - better than average - and not be OP.
The difference you site is an artificial distinction. Average is a very subjective term.
In any case - spears and smash captains are the absolutely best at what they do. Which is why they keep dominating tournaments. It's been done with ynnari spears - it's been done with aloitoc spears, it's been done with siamhan spears. It's been done with smash captains. It's been done with Shield captains. These units are all OP.
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2018/09/07 20:43:34
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
Marmatag wrote: If you think Smash Captain is as problematic for game balance as Custode Bikes or Hemlocks i don't know what to tell you.
Explain your case then - the hemlock costs almost double smash captain. Does About 1/4 of his damage. Yet is more broken? The bird averages 4 shots man - thats is not great. Crimson hunter is superior to it even and you aren't even mentioning it.
I don't have any problem with the regular custode bikes - 4++ save is tough to deal with but they are 90 points. Their stratagem is pretty brutal but its the only good stratagem in their whole codex. You have to shoot them - That isn't hard to do - if you can kill a hive tyrant you can kill 3 custode bikes...it's actually easier to do with most weapons and you get MORE points efficiency out of the deal. Bike captains are a bit more problematic. (at least hes not fighting twice...and does only d3 damage and not flat 3-4) and at least his threat range isn't the whole table - at least he can fail a charge - at least hes not rerolling wounds if you charge him. Smash captain is automatic kills after failed invos and hes fighting twice with almost double the attacks doing double the damage...
A Hemlock has so many more options available to it than a Smash Captain does.
Take away CP farming from a list with 3 Smash Captains in it, and the Smash Captain spam isn't overly threatening.
Generally in ITC, Hemlocks will score secondary points for you every turn, whilst also facilitating the scoring of primary points as well. Between their auto hitting str 12 weapons hitting (well killing in a lot of cases) at 16" range, their ability to target smites from behind screens due to their movement, ability to use Jinx, their -2 often, -3 to hit penalties on turn 1, their 6+++ and the often forgotten about leadership debuff, they are a lot harder to deal with than a Smash Captain charging into your lines.
So many of the units considered "OMG SO BROKEN" currently are only considered to be so far spending half a dozen cp every turn on them. As such, this points to CP being the problem not the units themselves.
Secondary points are irrelevant - they are made up house rules. They have nothing to do with game balance.
Lets also not forget a hemlock costs 80 points more than a smash captain. And smash captain 1 shots a hemlock with little effort (it doesn't even need to fight twice). 3 CP is all he needs to spend to reliably kill a hemlock. Leadership debuff is also a nice feature. I used it to kill a single fire warrior the other day - It was one of the first times I saw a model die to leadership in 8th edition.
When using a competitive event as part of the basis for what is considered OP or not, you have to consider the setting in addition to the unit. Primary and secondary points win event games and events. Houserules or not.
If we are going to ignore all competitive results and instead base all out arguments and findings on standard non event games, then the entire "what is broken and what isn't" discussion needs to be reset from all sides and some ground truths laid out for people to discuss around. Taking a normal game, i could say that all i need to kill a unit Shining Spears is 1 unit of 30 Ork Boyz and a Wierd Boy casting Da Jump. Does that mean Ork Boyz are OP, because they destroy several units of another OP unit? A lot of what is currently classed as "OP" is what we see in tournament winning lists and top 10 lists. We wouldn't be arguing whether Guardsmen should be 4 or 5 points each, if it wasn't for the Nova results. Nor would we be complaining about Smash Captains or "givemeallthecp Castellans".
As for a Smash Captain 1 shotting a Hemlock, it all depends.
If you've spent 1 CP on Black Rage, 1 CP on Red Rampage (and don't roll a 1), 2 CP on a 3D6 charge and 1 CP to deepstrike, then yes, you can just about 1 shot a Hemlock with average dice. But, that to me is a 5 CP investment that requires a warlord trait to make the hammer 4 damage. You could also fail the charge and the re-roll (not likely but possible)
Sure, the Hemlock isn't likely to kill the Captain, but, if you put 3 Smash Captains vs 3 Hemlocks, you aren't killing all 3 Hemlocks.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/09/07 20:44:54
Marmatag wrote: If you think Smash Captain is as problematic for game balance as Custode Bikes or Hemlocks i don't know what to tell you.
Explain your case then - the hemlock costs almost double smash captain. Does About 1/4 of his damage. Yet is more broken? The bird averages 4 shots man - thats is not great. Crimson hunter is superior to it even and you aren't even mentioning it.
I don't have any problem with the regular custode bikes - 4++ save is tough to deal with but they are 90 points. Their stratagem is pretty brutal but its the only good stratagem in their whole codex. You have to shoot them - That isn't hard to do - if you can kill a hive tyrant you can kill 3 custode bikes...it's actually easier to do with most weapons and you get MORE points efficiency out of the deal. Bike captains are a bit more problematic. (at least hes not fighting twice...and does only d3 damage and not flat 3-4) and at least his threat range isn't the whole table - at least he can fail a charge - at least hes not rerolling wounds if you charge him. Smash captain is automatic kills after failed invos and hes fighting twice with almost double the attacks doing double the damage...
A Hemlock has so many more options available to it than a Smash Captain does.
Take away CP farming from a list with 3 Smash Captains in it, and the Smash Captain spam isn't overly threatening.
Generally in ITC, Hemlocks will score secondary points for you every turn, whilst also facilitating the scoring of primary points as well. Between their auto hitting str 12 weapons hitting (well killing in a lot of cases) at 16" range, their ability to target smites from behind screens due to their movement, ability to use Jinx, their -2 often, -3 to hit penalties on turn 1, their 6+++ and the often forgotten about leadership debuff, they are a lot harder to deal with than a Smash Captain charging into your lines.
So many of the units considered "OMG SO BROKEN" currently are only considered to be so far spending half a dozen cp every turn on them. As such, this points to CP being the problem not the units themselves.
Secondary points are irrelevant - they are made up house rules. They have nothing to do with game balance.
Lets also not forget a hemlock costs 80 points more than a smash captain. And smash captain 1 shots a hemlock with little effort (it doesn't even need to fight twice). 3 CP is all he needs to spend to reliably kill a hemlock. Leadership debuff is also a nice feature. I used it to kill a single fire warrior the other day - It was one of the first times I saw a model die to leadership in 8th edition.
When using a competitive event as part of the basis for what is considered OP or not, you have to consider the setting in addition to the unit. Primary and secondary points win event games and events. Houserules or not.
If we are going to ignore all competitive results and instead base all out arguments and findings on standard non event games, then the entire "what is broken and what isn't" discussion needs to be reset from all sides and some ground truths laid out for people to discuss around. Taking a normal game, i could say that all i need to kill a unit Shining Spears is 1 unit of 30 Ork Boyz and a Wierd Boy casting Da Jump. Does that mean Ork Boyz are OP, because they destroy several units of another OP unit? A lot of what is currently classed as "OP" is what we see in tournament winning lists and top 10 lists. We wouldn't be arguing whether Guardsmen should be 4 or 5 points each, if it wasn't for the Nova results. Nor would we be complaining about Smash Captains or "givemeallthecp Castellans".
As for a Smash Captain 1 shotting a Hemlock, it all depends.
If you've spent 1 CP on Black Rage, 1 CP on Red Rampage (and don't roll a 1), 2 CP on a 3D6 charge and 1 CP to deepstrike, then yes, you can just about 1 shot a Hemlock with average dice. But, that to me is a 5 CP investment that requires a warlord trait to make the hammer 4 damage. You could also fail the charge and the re-roll (not likely but possible)
Sure, the Hemlock isn't likely to kill the Captain, but, if you put 3 Smash Captains vs 3 Hemlocks, you aren't killing all 3 Hemlocks.
Secondaries change - mission types change - there ETC, ITC, and many other rules sets people play competitively by. Secondary objectives do not matter for game balance - I'm sorry man. Unless GW comes out with an official secondary rule set - they are artificial factors that influence tournament results badly IMO. Plus - if a unit is winning out on an objective type more often then not - more than likely it is an OP unit.
What makes the hemlock so good at scoring secondaries? It's ability to snipe characters?
Also personally - you can throw these tournament results down the toilet. You can balance the game with math . I (anyone with a logical mind) could have looked at these codexes - figured out the combos - made tests lists - and predicted these results without even playing the game.
For example - I read about torn results but my best mate that plays 40k doesn't. I was like "guess what list won Nova" he says "Let me guess - a solo Castellan - guard brigade - and shield captains" "Nope....blood angels with smash captains" .... "well it was ether one or the other" - Point is - this is not surprising.
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2018/09/07 21:00:49
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
Admittedly I screwed up to allow the marine one to present the situation, but when his warptalons are about to tag your sicaran you do use your signum to counter the -1 so back to 3's and the strategum to get +1and mortal wound and try and kill one or two before they charge it.
Marmatag wrote: If you think Smash Captain is as problematic for game balance as Custode Bikes or Hemlocks i don't know what to tell you.
Explain your case then - the hemlock costs almost double smash captain. Does About 1/4 of his damage. Yet is more broken? The bird averages 4 shots man - thats is not great. Crimson hunter is superior to it even and you aren't even mentioning it.
I don't have any problem with the regular custode bikes - 4++ save is tough to deal with but they are 90 points. Their stratagem is pretty brutal but its the only good stratagem in their whole codex. You have to shoot them - That isn't hard to do - if you can kill a hive tyrant you can kill 3 custode bikes...it's actually easier to do with most weapons and you get MORE points efficiency out of the deal. Bike captains are a bit more problematic. (at least hes not fighting twice...and does only d3 damage and not flat 3-4) and at least his threat range isn't the whole table - at least he can fail a charge - at least hes not rerolling wounds if you charge him. Smash captain is automatic kills after failed invos and hes fighting twice with almost double the attacks doing double the damage...
A Hemlock has so many more options available to it than a Smash Captain does.
Take away CP farming from a list with 3 Smash Captains in it, and the Smash Captain spam isn't overly threatening.
Generally in ITC, Hemlocks will score secondary points for you every turn, whilst also facilitating the scoring of primary points as well. Between their auto hitting str 12 weapons hitting (well killing in a lot of cases) at 16" range, their ability to target smites from behind screens due to their movement, ability to use Jinx, their -2 often, -3 to hit penalties on turn 1, their 6+++ and the often forgotten about leadership debuff, they are a lot harder to deal with than a Smash Captain charging into your lines.
So many of the units considered "OMG SO BROKEN" currently are only considered to be so far spending half a dozen cp every turn on them. As such, this points to CP being the problem not the units themselves.
Secondary points are irrelevant - they are made up house rules. They have nothing to do with game balance.
Lets also not forget a hemlock costs 80 points more than a smash captain. And smash captain 1 shots a hemlock with little effort (it doesn't even need to fight twice). 3 CP is all he needs to spend to reliably kill a hemlock. Leadership debuff is also a nice feature. I used it to kill a single fire warrior the other day - It was one of the first times I saw a model die to leadership in 8th edition.
When using a competitive event as part of the basis for what is considered OP or not, you have to consider the setting in addition to the unit. Primary and secondary points win event games and events. Houserules or not.
If we are going to ignore all competitive results and instead base all out arguments and findings on standard non event games, then the entire "what is broken and what isn't" discussion needs to be reset from all sides and some ground truths laid out for people to discuss around. Taking a normal game, i could say that all i need to kill a unit Shining Spears is 1 unit of 30 Ork Boyz and a Wierd Boy casting Da Jump. Does that mean Ork Boyz are OP, because they destroy several units of another OP unit? A lot of what is currently classed as "OP" is what we see in tournament winning lists and top 10 lists. We wouldn't be arguing whether Guardsmen should be 4 or 5 points each, if it wasn't for the Nova results. Nor would we be complaining about Smash Captains or "givemeallthecp Castellans".
As for a Smash Captain 1 shotting a Hemlock, it all depends.
If you've spent 1 CP on Black Rage, 1 CP on Red Rampage (and don't roll a 1), 2 CP on a 3D6 charge and 1 CP to deepstrike, then yes, you can just about 1 shot a Hemlock with average dice. But, that to me is a 5 CP investment that requires a warlord trait to make the hammer 4 damage. You could also fail the charge and the re-roll (not likely but possible)
Sure, the Hemlock isn't likely to kill the Captain, but, if you put 3 Smash Captains vs 3 Hemlocks, you aren't killing all 3 Hemlocks.
Secondaries change - mission types change - there ETC, ITC, and many other rules sets people play competitively by. Secondary objectives do not matter for game balance - I'm sorry man. Unless GW comes out with an official secondary rule set - they are artificial factors that influence tournament results badly IMO. Plus - if a unit is winning out on an objective type more often then not - more than likely it is an OP unit.
What makes the hemlock so good at scoring secondaries? It's ability to snipe characters?
Also personally - you can throw these tournament results down the toilet. You can balance the game with math . I (anyone with a logical mind) could have looked at these codexes - figured out the combos - made tests lists - and predicted these results without even playing the game.
I agree, secondary and non GW primary missions shouldn't matter for game balance at all. Nothing should matter except how the unit performs in the standard GW ruleset alone.
However, the only events that use that format, are the GW events, and, we all know how "useful" those events have been for identifying balance. lol.
BUT, the problem is, if we are using (like we are) event results and lists to determine the most commonly used "op" units and combinations, in order to balance the game, you have to take secondaries etc into account. Points win games. Points win events. Sure, you can try to table your opponent every game, but, it's not going to reliably happen. If we ignore secondaries we have to ignore all event results bar the GW events and balance solely from those events and games played at home or the local club (where only the rulebook is used). If we did that, and had the ability to poll every single club and home player if they thought a Castellan Knight was way to powerful, or if a Blood Angels Captain was to OP, or if a 4 point Guardsman was broken, then i bet the vast majority wouldn't have an opinion, and if they did it'd be towards both ends of the spectrum with little middle ground.
Yes, math helps you gain advantages in the game, and yes, some units are mathmatically better in each given situation than other units. But math doesn't win the physical game - especially core rulebook games, or maelstrom games (which are the only 2 sets of games we can use for balance, in addition to Chapter Approved games).
I seriously bet, that the list that won Nova will not win the next major event or the LVO (even if the Big FAQ and Chapter Approved 2018 were ignored). People will find what is the best counter to said list, and use it to beat the current lists.
There are more factors to a game of 40k than math.
I'd argue that captain smash is needed as long as knight 3++ and stacking negatives to hit fliers are around. And really, its mostly against these units that they are considered OP, because they bypass so much of a what makes those units durable.
The captains are really only good against certain units, it just that those are the good units right now. A full captain combo on turn 1 costs about 6 CP, which would normally be about half your starting CP. And most of the time they die after that turn.
Its mostly the CP regen and saturation of excellent targets that's making them seem so amazing, coupled with them being able to "not a deepstrike" redeploy on turn 1. I have a feeling they'll be mostly useless against orks etc, and if the CP situation improves I think they'll go back to being a non issue.
jcd386 wrote: I'd argue that captain smash is needed as long as knight 3++ and stacking negatives to hit fliers are around. And really, its mostly against these units that they are considered OP, because they bypass so much of a what makes those units durable.
The captains are really only good against certain units, it just that those are the good units right now. A full captain combo on turn 1 costs about 6 CP, which would normally be about half your starting CP. And most of the time they die after that turn.
Its mostly the CP regen and saturation of excellent targets that's making them seem so amazing, coupled with them being able to "not a deepstrike" redeploy on turn 1. I have a feeling they'll be mostly useless against orks etc, and if the CP situation improves I think they'll go back to being a non issue.
This is part of the reason why I say they're strong but not broken. It's a situational trump card, to be sure, but there's nothing wrong with that. And turn 1 deep strike is still not super viable. Most armies have screens, or units capable of screening. Even if CP gets nerfed, Knight armies are still bringing Guardsmen. For the obvious reasons.
Galas wrote: I remember when Marmatag was a nooby, all shiney and full of joy. How playing the unbalanced mess of Warhammer40k in a ultra-competitive meta has changed you
Bharring wrote: He'll actually *change his mind* in the presence of sufficient/sufficiently defended information. Heretic.
I might be totally wrong but I am not convinced a CP nerf would change things. Having 35~ CP certainly helps go the distance - but I am fairly confident 20 would let you do whatever you wanted for the first 2-3 turns. Things like "using half/third of your CP would make it balanced" is hard to measure. Killing stuff efficiently changes games. You don't get to take CP with you if you have 10 left at the end.
Smash captains do impact the meta because they make a lot of beefy units bad.
There is usually a lot of forum debate about things like hemlocks, custodes bike captains and daemon princes. Yet where were they at this tournament? Seemingly nowhere (or at least not dominating), because your captains are a very reliable, efficient counter. (Plus wall to wall chaff and the Castellan).
Whether this makes them overpowered is debatable, but identifying the pressure points in a meta is important.
As I see it the Imperial list is good because everything - even the scouts - has a job and does it well.
Tyel wrote: I might be totally wrong but I am not convinced a CP nerf would change things. Having 35~ CP certainly helps go the distance - but I am fairly confident 20 would let you do whatever you wanted for the first 2-3 turns. Things like "using half/third of your CP would make it balanced" is hard to measure. Killing stuff efficiently changes games. You don't get to take CP with you if you have 10 left at the end.
Smash captains do impact the meta because they make a lot of beefy units bad.
There is usually a lot of forum debate about things like hemlocks, custodes bike captains and daemon princes. Yet where were they at this tournament? Seemingly nowhere (or at least not dominating), because your captains are a very reliable, efficient counter. (Plus wall to wall chaff and the Castellan).
Whether this makes them overpowered is debatable, but identifying the pressure points in a meta is important.
As I see it the Imperial list is good because everything - even the scouts - has a job and does it well.
To me fixing the CP issue would involve making the cap about 15 and the average 10-12.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/09/07 22:44:58
Galas wrote: Guys, guys guys... do you know that many different units can be OP at different degrees and in different ways at the same time...don't you?
You seem to be one of the more rational people in other threads I've posted in, can you please give me a quick summary of the statements being made here about what isn't OP? This has been going on for a while and I don't want to dive through the whole thread to catch up
P.S.A. I won't read your posts if you break it into a million separate quotes and make an eyesore of it.
2. Release actual Ynnari codex with more units. Possibly re-design soulburst.
3. Buff weak mono armies like Necrons, Tau, pure SM/CSM, mono god daemons, etc.
Notes
1. CP batteries are strong but only when they're AM cheap AND can be paired with allies that can use it to spam really powerful stratagems. For example, Genestealer Cults/Aeldari CP batteries are not really a problem. Pure Knights and pure Custodes don't need nerfs.
2. Ynnari is kinda one-trick but hasn't really seemed to be completely dominating the meta for a while. The 7-flyrant meta and the DE meta both showed plenty of builds that were competitive with Ynnari.
I've got another suggestion regarding Command Points.
What if, rather than different detachments granting different numbers of CPs, we instead based CPs on the points of troops in an army?
We could, for example, say that each army gets 1CP for every 100pts they spend on troops. This way, elite armies aren't punished for taking just a few units of expensive troops and armies like IG can't just take half a dozen cheap infantry squads and get maximum CPs.
I'd also suggest that all CP regeneration type abilities are changed so that they simply generate 1CP automatically each turn (assuming the bearer is still alive). This means that you can't just endlessly recycle CPs - spending a ton of them and getting a ton back as a result.
Any thoughts?
blood reaper wrote: I will respect human rights and trans people but I will never under any circumstances use the phrase 'folks' or 'ya'll'. I would rather be killed by firing squad.
the_scotsman wrote: Yeah, when i read the small novel that is the Death Guard unit options and think about resolving the attacks from a melee-oriented min size death guard squad, the thing that springs to mind is "Accessible!"
Argive wrote: GW seems to have a crystal ball and just pulls hairbrained ideas out of their backside for the most part.
You're not. If you're worried about your opponent using 'fake' rules, you're having fun the wrong way. This hobby isn't about rules. It's about buying Citadel miniatures.
Please report to your nearest GW store for attitude readjustment. Take your wallet.
vipoid wrote: I've got another suggestion regarding Command Points.
What if, rather than different detachments granting different numbers of CPs, we instead based CPs on the points of troops in an army?
We could, for example, say that each army gets 1CP for every 100pts they spend on troops. This way, elite armies aren't punished for taking just a few units of expensive troops and armies like IG can't just take half a dozen cheap infantry squads and get maximum CPs.
I'd also suggest that all CP regeneration type abilities are changed so that they simply generate 1CP automatically each turn (assuming the bearer is still alive). This means that you can't just endlessly recycle CPs - spending a ton of them and getting a ton back as a result.
Any thoughts?
I think they would both work well, but I think the first one is unlikely to happen due to it requiring some math. I'd much rather CA just come out with 5 new pages of new detachment and battleforged rules regarding how armies are put together and CP are generated that can just replace the ones in the rulebook.
Until I see actual attempts to address soup, I don't give a crap about your complaints about Guard. I want soup hit. My book already took a nerf, whether I used the models or not, because of whining about soup.
Back at you. I don't want my already questionable imperial mess to be nerfed because people keep bringing utterly broken gak from Guard dex.
And you still haven't actually proven what you're bringing couldn't be done without a Brigade or Battalion.
Post up.
Because quite frankly? Your soup's viability doesn't trump my codex's. You don't get to nerf my book because you want soup.
Now you're showing off how selfish you are by openly admitting you don't want your stronger codex touched.
Based on the fact they were proven mathematically superior to a lot of other units and still keep showing up?
What other unit options are there for bulking out a Brigade to get your CP spam on? Skitarii Rangers? Vanguard? Kataphron? Tactical Marines? Conscripts? Scions?
You keep pointing at the math while ignoring that if we remove the ability to bring a Brigade of the frigging things and neuter the Command Point spam, it won't be as big of an issue.
You keep pointing at the math while ignoring that if we remove the ability for a Company Commander to be the Warlord, Grand Strategist ceases to be an issue.
You keep pointing at the math while ignoring that if we remove Mortars from Infantry Squads, the threat radius goes down.
Math is great and all but it doesn't actually give the whole picture in every circumstance.
You remind me exactly of certain Scatterbikes defenders who kept saying that the Riptide Wings allied in or the Wraithknights were the issue.
Don't ignore the original issue by trying to distract us with something else that needs to be hit.
Until I see actual attempts to address soup, I don't give a crap about your complaints about Guard. I want soup hit. My book already took a nerf, whether I used the models or not, because of whining about soup.
Based on the fact Infantry do better screening than those listed troops they'd still be taken. Quit blaming Mortars for something Infantry are gonna do anyway. There are several things off the charts with Infantry squads and you know it.
Also saying that the math doesn't give the whole picture is the equivalent of plugging your ears and shouting "LALALALA". I already know that, if suddenly tomorrow, Alpha Legion Cultists got BS2+ and all Assault Cannons for no cost increase, youd have people still saying they're not broken and to learn to play.
Scatterbikes obviously weren't THAT, but people defended it no matter what. That's basically what you're doing with your codex.
Also boo-frickin-hoo your Conscripts and Commissars took a much needed nerf. Yeah the 4 points is over the top, but they deserved everything else.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/09/07 23:39:54
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
Galas wrote: Guys, guys guys... do you know that many different units can be OP at different degrees and in different ways at the same time...don't you?
You seem to be one of the more rational people in other threads I've posted in, can you please give me a quick summary of the statements being made here about what isn't OP? This has been going on for a while and I don't want to dive through the whole thread to catch up
To be honest at this point I only read fully 1/3 of the posts But basically, there was a discussion about Shining Spears/Captain Smashfester/Hemlock Jetfigthers/Custodes Vertus Praetors and Captains/Dissintegrator Cannons, etc... and some people said one where powerfull but not as OP as THE other units so by that they where "fine"; etc... wich is an absolutely false conclusion.
Of course, we can all disagree about what constitutes Very Strong vs OP, or what should be the power standard of the game... but I always feel surprised about how fast people loses perspective when they are talking about their units, very powerfull, mathematically unbalanced units, but wich they only see the downsides.
As I play mostly Dark Angels (And I don't spam flyers), I have the perspective of what being really middle of the pack feels, and is obvious, at least for me in my subjetive opinion, how those units, are unbalanced.
It doesnt matter if Grotesques are more OP than Castellans Knights... if they are both unbalanced, they should be corrected.
And sorry, I know this is more than what you asked me for, and probably not exactly what you asked for... but at this point this discussion is no longer a discussion and more preachers trying to out-yell the others
Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.
ERJAK wrote: Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.
Anyone saying Spears are not OP are playing a different game.
It's interesting that the best players have pretty consistent opinions on these models, but Dakka of course has no shortage of low level players who know better.
P.S.A. I won't read your posts if you break it into a million separate quotes and make an eyesore of it.
SHUPPET wrote: Anyone saying Spears are not OP are playing a different game.
It's interesting that the best players have pretty consistent opinions on these models, but Dakka of course has no shortage of low level players who know better.
Nah tournament players don't know anything all they do is netlist as it isn't like anyone has to make the list they just appear and they copy them they're so unoriginal and unskilled but I don't enter tournaments because that's not my thing.
Did I about get that right or nah?
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
Until I see actual attempts to address soup, I don't give a crap about your complaints about Guard. I want soup hit. My book already took a nerf, whether I used the models or not, because of whining about soup.
Back at you. I don't want my already questionable imperial mess to be nerfed because people keep bringing utterly broken gak from Guard dex.
And you still haven't actually proven what you're bringing couldn't be done without a Brigade or Battalion.
Post up.
Because quite frankly? Your soup's viability doesn't trump my codex's. You don't get to nerf my book because you want soup.
Now you're showing off how selfish you are by openly admitting you don't want your stronger codex touched.
Your true colors show.
I don't want my codex being touched because tournament goons abuse one component of it--a component which could be solved by an actual tweak to the rules of the game, not my book.
Based on the fact Infantry do better screening than those listed troops they'd still be taken. Quit blaming Mortars for something Infantry are gonna do anyway. There are several things off the charts with Infantry squads and you know it.
Remind me again how many Infantry Squads we saw without Mortars? I'd love to see actual pictures of the tables and where things were.
Also saying that the math doesn't give the whole picture is the equivalent of plugging your ears and shouting "LALALALA". I already know that, if suddenly tomorrow, Alpha Legion Cultists got BS2+ and all Assault Cannons for no cost increase, youd have people still saying they're not broken and to learn to play.
Saying "the math doesn't give the whole picture" is just that. Numbercrunching.
If people wanted just bodies they'd be taking Conscripts--the points difference is almost negligible when talking about Guard. But they don't take Conscripts--because for the same points per model, they get access to Mortars and reliable Orders. And until the addition of the Custodes banner, you basically had to bring in an Inquisitor or Primaris Psyker to babysit them after the Commissar nerf.
Scatterbikes obviously weren't THAT, but people defended it no matter what. That's basically what you're doing with your codex.
Sure, okay.
Also boo-frickin-hoo your Conscripts and Commissars took a much needed nerf. Yeah the 4 points is over the top, but they deserved everything else.
When the fix literally could have been the half-assed Raw Recruits rule they added to curb them taking Orders but don't forget that the "fix" also included the 20 model reduction on unit max.
There's a reason we're not seeing Commissars on boards basically at all these days. Summary Execution is garbage when you have the same ability being handed out as a trait. Summary Execution is garbage when you have T'au rocking "Bonding Knife Ritual" in their unit at no points cost.
You're entitled to your opinion. I'm entitled to mine that there were much better ways to handle it and they need to revert the Commissar nerf. Conscripts needed something to be done but they knee-jerked that stuff hard.
You could smell the outside "playtesters" and their influence on that book.
Mortars were taken because they're on the cheap. You take away Mortars the players will just move on to something else or even just keep them bare bones because they function as is.
So please stop pretending Mortars are the REAL issue here.
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Mortars were taken because they're on the cheap. You take away Mortars the players will just move on to something else or even just keep them bare bones because they function as is.
So please stop pretending Mortars are the REAL issue here.
You keep focusing on Mortars as though I'm saying they're "the real issue". That I haven't acknowledged that the CP regeneration isn't a thing or that I have not pointed out exactly what you're saying, where Mortars being removed will either force people to swap Heavy Weapons or just keep the units barebones.
I'm not. You pretending that I believe Mortars are the big issue is a strawman argument; you're fighting something I've never said.
I'm bringing up Mortars because they're a part of the attractiveness of the Infantry Squad. You get your CP recycling garbage and an expendable unit you can park in cover on an objective that can harass with a weapon that doesn't need LOS and has a 48" range. There was also the issue that kept being brought up from tournament players regarding ITC and an objective there where it dealt with number of models or something like that? I don't know specifics as I don't care for ITC or tournaments in general, I just remember it being a reason why people kept harping on the need for tournament lists to have a HWT in the Infantry Squads.
But basically, there was a discussion about Shining Spears/Captain Smashfester/Hemlock Jetfigthers/Custodes Vertus Praetors and Captains/Dissintegrator Cannons, etc... and some people said one where powerfull but not as 