Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

It's tough to see what a daemon would really gain by more or less permanenty possessing a material body, at least outside of the context of the traitor Primarchs. I mean, what I understand this notion that Daemon Princes are all possessed to mean is that a daemon's consciousness supplants that of the mortal host's upon the latter's "ascension." But isn't it actually the personality of the mortal, rather than her or his material body (again, in the vast majority of possible cases), that interests the Ruinous Powers to begin with? If "ascension" obliterates that personality, I can't really see the point. Why bother possessing a great champion that comes along fairly infrequently if all you really are after is a material body? There's no reason to be so picky.

So thanks very much but I will stick to the idea that, for example, Magnus the Daemon Primarch is the same guy who used to be Magnus the Red, Primarch of the XVth, rather than some random daemon cruising around in Magnus's heavily mutated skin'n'bones.

Delvarus Centurion wrote:And is it common writing convention to assert a very important factor and not explain or describe it at all. I think not. If it was assigned to a single character, they would describe why that character was indeed dead. I have not left out anything the quote literally has no description whatsoever, all he does is state that he is no longer living and his soul is bound to his body and that he he is useful in that he can lead the Deathguard to his homeworld. Him being dead has no context or description whatsoever.

Considering that it's established that the character is in the employ and service of the gods of the Warp, almost anything "unnatural" can be attributed to it.
The author expecting the reader to make that connection that "unnatural = Warp" is standard in 40k.

It's not a massive leap of logic to make. The same happens with Kharn - he dies in the Siege of Terra, and is also mortally wounded during the Istvaan III battles, but the reason he's alive in 40k? Warp did it. Why is this different?

Also, the fact that you miss the fact that Dantine is not even a Space Marine, which completely ruins the argument about "all DG are now DEAD" in your OP, means you probably should go back and change that. There's nothing to suggest that the Death Guard are all "dead", and even if some were, "the Warp did it!" is a perfectly valid reason.

Manchu wrote:It's tough to see what a daemon would really gain by more or less permanenty possessing a material body, at least outside of the context of the traitor Primarchs. I mean, what I understand this notion that Daemon Princes are all possessed to mean is that a daemon's consciousness supplants that of the mortal host's upon the latter's "ascension." But isn't it actually the personality of the mortal, rather than her or his material body (again, in the vast majority of possible cases), that interests the Ruinous Powers to begin with? If "ascension" obliterates that personality, I can't really see the point. Why bother possessing a great champion that comes along fairly infrequently if all you really are after is a material body? There's no reason to be so picky.

So thanks very much but I will stick to the idea that, for example, Magnus the Daemon Primarch is the same guy who used to be Magnus the Red, Primarch of the XVth, rather than some random daemon cruising around in Magnus's heavily mutated skin'n'bones.

I think that there needs to be some inherent downside to Daemonhood - otherwise, Abaddon not taking it up is strange, considering he will claim power in every other way.

What I see (and this is just my interpretation) is that some Daemon Princes, particularly the most powerful and strong-willed maintain their personality, and others either willingly submit to their God's desires, or are lost during the ascension. However, in all cases, a Daemon Prince is still bound to the will of their patron deity. A Daemon Prince of Khorne is bound to the desire to kill, maim and burn, but how they go about it and their personal methods of doing so are variable. A Daemon Prince of Tzeentch, be that a random Tzeentch Daemon Prince or Magnus, is forced by their nature as part of Tzeentch to bring change and sorcery - but Magnus might have a more human touch in how he does it. For example, the random one might only serve as what Tzeentch commands, but Magnus might do a task that isn't necessarily what Tzeentch asked for, but still bound by the need to change.

What I see is that the Daemon Prince is compelled at all times to bring about the aspect of their patron, but some Daemon Princes have more personal touches than others.

Sgt Cortez, I think you're absolutely right on with that.

I reckon Abaddon does not want to be beholden to any of the Warp factions, and wants to play them off one another to pursue his own interests, and his reluctance to "ascend" really is as simple as that.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

I think that there needs to be some inherent downside to Daemonhood - otherwise, Abaddon not taking it up is strange, considering he will claim power in every other way.

What I see (and this is just my interpretation) is that some Daemon Princes, particularly the most powerful and strong-willed maintain their personality, and others either willingly submit to their God's desires, or are lost during the ascension. However, in all cases, a Daemon Prince is still bound to the will of their patron deity. A Daemon Prince of Khorne is bound to the desire to kill, maim and burn, but how they go about it and their personal methods of doing so are variable. A Daemon Prince of Tzeentch, be that a random Tzeentch Daemon Prince or Magnus, is forced by their nature as part of Tzeentch to bring change and sorcery - but Magnus might have a more human touch in how he does it. For example, the random one might only serve as what Tzeentch commands, but Magnus might do a task that isn't necessarily what Tzeentch asked for, but still bound by the need to change.

What I see is that the Daemon Prince is compelled at all times to bring about the aspect of their patron, but some Daemon Princes have more personal touches than others.

The downside of Daemonhood is being bound by the need to have warp energy in order to manifest. Of course now GW has made it easier with the Great Rift to handwave warp storms everywhere so Daemons can run around, but before that, in lore, a large scale daemonic incursion was supposed to have been rare. Angron's attack on Armageddon stalled by the need to conduct bloody rituals and construct Chaos monuments to generate the necessary energy to keep Angron and his daemons manifest. This need meant limited strategic mobility out of the Eye for any daemons. Abaddon and any CSM, by remaining mortal, are not bound by that restriction.

Summing up a lot of the old background all the way back to the original Realms of Chaos books, the key difference between Daemon Princes (or Daemon Primarchs) and Greater Daemons (or any other run of the mill daemons) of a god is the fact that the former were once mortal. That means that they retain memory and more insight into how the mortals think and function compared to the latter, who never lived mortal lives. When a mortal becomes a Daemon Prince, their soul is freed from its body and is suffused with enough power to remain coherent in the warp, whereas normally human souls dissolve. The Chaos gods are formed from aspects of souls so their personalities are more limited in range than mortals. Their created Daemons, which are just tiny portions of the god given some degree of consciousness and self-direction, therefore also are limited in their minds and emotions to the range encompassed by their god.

Interesting trivia: Daemons reflect a facet of their god. The only exception seems to be Nurgle. The Great Unclean Ones and the Nurglings appear to be entire miniature copies of Nurgle's personality in his totality, albeit with their own names and correspondingly lesser levels of power and intelligence. That is why Great Unclear Ones are sometimes called the same titles as Nurgle, and why Nurglings are called "Little Lords" in the novel Lords of Silence.

Manchu wrote:I reckon Abaddon does not want to be beholden to any of the Warp factions, and wants to play them off one another to pursue his own interests, and his reluctance to "ascend" really is as simple as that.

But why? Why would Abaddon have a reluctance if it has no discernible negative factors?

Even him not wanting to be beholden to a certain god is a little lacklustre - why not? If being a Daemon Prince has no negatives, why not just pick any one at random and reap the benefits?

I think ADB does make a text post about Abaddon not wanting to ascend, and it more or less states that if Abaddon did ascend, he would lose his autonomy and become like Horus was - beholden to the whims of the gods. While it's not in a particular BL book (that I know), considering ADB's very good portrayal of Abaddon in his story arc, I think it's a good way to look at it.

Iracundus wrote:The downside of Daemonhood is being bound by the need to have warp energy in order to manifest. Of course now GW has made it easier with the Great Rift to handwave warp storms everywhere so Daemons can run around, but before that, in lore, a large scale daemonic incursion was supposed to have been rare. Angron's attack on Armageddon stalled by the need to conduct bloody rituals and construct Chaos monuments to generate the necessary energy to keep Angron and his daemons manifest. This need meant limited strategic mobility out of the Eye for any daemons. Abaddon and any CSM, by remaining mortal, are not bound by that restriction.

This is true, but all the same, I actually got the impression that regular Daemon Princes (not Daemon Primarchs) could go through the mortal world naturally without needing a constant tie to daemonic energy. Things like the Hunt for Voldorius seem to imply that they don't need a constant flow of Warp juice to keep them present, and that a Daemon Prince is actually valued because they are both Daemon and man, and can therefore survive in both realms, where full Daemons or Daemon Primarchs needed constant reinforcement.

Of course, I could very well be wrong.

Summing up a lot of the old background all the way back to the original Realms of Chaos books, the key difference between Daemon Princes (or Daemon Primarchs) and Greater Daemons (or any other run of the mill daemons) of a god is the fact that the former were once mortal. That means that they retain memory and more insight into how the mortals think and function compared to the latter, who never lived mortal lives. When a mortal becomes a Daemon Prince, their soul is freed from its body and is suffused with enough power to remain coherent in the warp, whereas normally human souls dissolve. The Chaos gods are formed from aspects of souls so their personalities are more limited in range than mortals. Their created Daemons, which are just tiny portions of the god given some degree of consciousness and self-direction, therefore also are limited in their minds and emotions to the range encompassed by their god.

Largely agreed. A Daemon Prince will often (but not always) have some level of autonomy, but will be mentally beholden to the whim of their patron. A full Daemon has no autonomy, or can physically not resist the nature of their creator.

Interesting trivia: Daemons reflect a facet of their god. The only exception seems to be Nurgle. The Great Unclean Ones and the Nurglings appear to be entire miniature copies of Nurgle's personality in his totality, albeit with their own names and correspondingly lesser levels of power and intelligence. That is why Great Unclear Ones are sometimes called the same titles as Nurgle, and why Nurglings are called "Little Lords" in the novel Lords of Silence.

I did notice this, it's a nice fact!

Well being beholden to some Warp "god" is itself a negative, so far as Abaddon is concerned. I mean, he's not interested in their drama. He's got his own drama.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
This is true, but all the same, I actually got the impression that regular Daemon Princes (not Daemon Primarchs) could go through the mortal world naturally without needing a constant tie to daemonic energy. Things like the Hunt for Voldorius seem to imply that they don't need a constant flow of Warp juice to keep them present, and that a Daemon Prince is actually valued because they are both Daemon and man, and can therefore survive in both realms, where full Daemons or Daemon Primarchs needed constant reinforcement.

Of course, I could very well be wrong.

Just as individual Daemons might be summoned by cultists and sustained by their rituals, a Daemon Prince might be sustained by the rituals and acts of devotion by his followers. The problem arises once one starts dealing with squads or armies of daemons. At that scale, the amount of energy needed requires preying on others for sacrifices and/slave labor to construct appropriate Chaos edifices.

This actually back up something I said a loooong time ago, that as someone reaches enough power in the warp thier own reflection is born in Deamons form just like how vortices of emotion/concept form a Deamon, so I personally think that Deamon princes possessing the host is literally the dark mirror of the original soul taking over.

 Formosa wrote:
This actually back up something I said a loooong time ago, that as someone reaches enough power in the warp thier own reflection is born in Deamons form just like how vortices of emotion/concept form a Deamon, so I personally think that Deamon princes possessing the host is literally the dark mirror of the original soul taking over.

That actually makes sense seeing that Fulgrims possessor is trapped in a painting but looks exactly like him, however the daemons aren't like them at all from what we've read. In Fulgrims case that is, it was because of the difference that the captains of the III tried to exorcise him. And the daemon was ancient, far outlived Fulgrim. His daemon came from the laer sword and ancient artifact. Though he didn't become a Daemon Prince till after though no possession is ever talked about apart from Fulgrims initial possession. So if daemon princes are now possessed it is pretty much new lore, yes very old lore has it but daemon princes have no been possessed for a long time.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Death Guard aren't all Astartes. I've not read Lords of Silence, so my interpretation is entirely gleaned from what you've put in the OP (quotes would be lovely here!), but you never imply that Lords of Silence says that ALL CSM are dead. Only Death Guard - and while that may be a retcon, it's not hard to believe that the Death Guard Legion were entirely subsumed into Nurgle's dominion. After all, the Thousand Sons (barring psykers) were killed. Why not the Death Guard?

Could it be an error? Yeah. Could it be a retcon? Yeah. We won't know until another book solidifies it.

To aid this argument, for those of us who haven't actually read it, would you be able to throw in quotes from the book? If the mods don't approve, that's fair, but at the moment, you're just saying things, and I have no idea if you're being hyperbolic.

Well its a logical inference that the writer would apply it to CSM's, as Deathguard have never been dead. There is no pdf at the moment, so I don't want to lose my place on my ebook looking for it. But there is no added context to it. The Primarch part says explicitly that they are possessed and that some daemon princes have no autonomy at all, I can quote the Deathguard bit


Narration describing Dantine:

"He is a puppet now, a shadow within a world of ghouls and mists. It matters not that he cannot read the warp, nor that he cannot pilot a star-ship. His soul clings to his body despite its mortal death."

There is no context to why he is 'dead' so it must be extended to all deathguard.

This is also backed up by Dantine taking a human PDF soldier to aid him and he has had, his hearth removed and is dead himself, Dantine saying 'how can you know you are alive now."




.

Dantine is a human soldier- not a Plague Marine. I know I lot of the characters are a bit hard to keep track of in that book, but c'mon...

To me it's quite clear Dantine is turning into a Poxwalker. Where it's clearly stated the mind is intact and the body dies as the walking pox takes effect.

 Grimtuff wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Death Guard aren't all Astartes. I've not read Lords of Silence, so my interpretation is entirely gleaned from what you've put in the OP (quotes would be lovely here!), but you never imply that Lords of Silence says that ALL CSM are dead. Only Death Guard - and while that may be a retcon, it's not hard to believe that the Death Guard Legion were entirely subsumed into Nurgle's dominion. After all, the Thousand Sons (barring psykers) were killed. Why not the Death Guard?

Could it be an error? Yeah. Could it be a retcon? Yeah. We won't know until another book solidifies it.

To aid this argument, for those of us who haven't actually read it, would you be able to throw in quotes from the book? If the mods don't approve, that's fair, but at the moment, you're just saying things, and I have no idea if you're being hyperbolic.

Well its a logical inference that the writer would apply it to CSM's, as Deathguard have never been dead. There is no pdf at the moment, so I don't want to lose my place on my ebook looking for it. But there is no added context to it. The Primarch part says explicitly that they are possessed and that some daemon princes have no autonomy at all, I can quote the Deathguard bit


Narration describing Dantine:

"He is a puppet now, a shadow within a world of ghouls and mists. It matters not that he cannot read the warp, nor that he cannot pilot a star-ship. His soul clings to his body despite its mortal death."

There is no context to why he is 'dead' so it must be extended to all deathguard.

This is also backed up by Dantine taking a human PDF soldier to aid him and he has had, his hearth removed and is dead himself, Dantine saying 'how can you know you are alive now."




.

Dantine is a human soldier- not a Plague Marine. I know I lot of the characters are a bit hard to keep track of in that book, but c'mon...

To me it's quite clear Dantine is turning into a Poxwalker. Where it's clearly stated the mind is intact and the body dies as the walking pox takes effect.

I already stated that, but good job ignoring that to show that you have read the book. Why did Mortarion change his mind? Why did the Thin-bloodied think they are called the unbroken?

My epeen is bigger than your epeen. I have read the whole book.

But just keep being an ignorant gatekeeping arse. It's far more entertaining.

 Grimtuff wrote:
My epeen is bigger than your epeen. I have read the whole book.

But just keep being an ignorant gatekeeping arse. It's far more entertaining.

Lol yeah you haven't read the book. People do this all the time, as I've seen you do it plenty, you read the thread and then see what people have wrote and to show that you've read it, you agree and re-assert whats said even not having read the book.

Wow, just wow. I really don't have to justify myself you mate, but if you want to keep sitting in your ignorant bubble thinking you're gods lil gatekeeping gift to the lore then carry on.

I must have totally imagined that tenner I spent on the book that is sitting in iBooks from this very phone I'm posting from.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
So if daemon princes are now possessed it is pretty much new lore, yes very old lore has it but daemon princes have no been possessed for a long time.

You keep saying that, but you are ignoring a couple of people who have pointed out a clear instance of this happening in the Exalted, from a trilogy published between 6-8 years ago, and still available from the BL. "New lore" isn't the same as it being new to you.

 Grimtuff wrote:
Wow, just wow. I really don't have to justify myself you mate, but if you want to keep sitting in your ignorant bubble thinking you're gods lil gatekeeping gift to the lore then carry on.

I must have totally imagined that tenner I spent on the book that is sitting in iBooks from this very phone I'm posting from.

You really do have to justify yourself, you just can't lol


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 JamesY wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
So if daemon princes are now possessed it is pretty much new lore, yes very old lore has it but daemon princes have no been possessed for a long time.

You keep saying that, but you are ignoring a couple of people who have pointed out a clear instance of this happening in the Exalted, from a trilogy published between 6-8 years ago, and still available from the BL. "New lore" isn't the same as it being new to you.

Yeah but new lore trumps old lore and seeing that from those instances, they've never been written as possessions I don't think they are that valid.

Why does a poxwalker being dead have to extend to the whole Death Guard?

phillv85 wrote:
Why does a poxwalker being dead have to extend to the whole Death Guard?

Read the whole thread.

I did, it doesn't make sense, so I'm asking. Again, how does a poxwalker being dead mean Plague Marines must be dead?

phillv85 wrote:
I did, it doesn't make sense, so I'm asking. Again, how does a poxwalker being dead mean Plague Marines must be dead?

You never read the whole thread because I admitted I was WRONG. So re-read the thread.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

phillv85 wrote:
I did, it doesn't make sense, so I'm asking. Again, how does a poxwalker being dead mean Plague Marines must be dead?

You never read the whole thread because I admitted I was WRONG. So re-read the thread.

Sounds like someone needs to read the whole book before making assumptions...

 Grimtuff wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

phillv85 wrote:
I did, it doesn't make sense, so I'm asking. Again, how does a poxwalker being dead mean Plague Marines must be dead?

You never read the whole thread because I admitted I was WRONG. So re-read the thread.

Sounds like someone needs to read the whole book before making assumptions...

Looks like someone actually needs to read the book.

@ DC the Night Lords trilogy is by far and away one of BL best selling collections, even now 6 years after the last book was published, and written by the man generally accepted as the best writer of chaos (if not 40k period.) How on earth can you claim that anything contained within is invalid?

 JamesY wrote:
@ DC the Night Lords trilogy is by far and away one of BL best selling collections, even now 6 years after the last book was published, and written by the man generally accepted as the best writer of chaos (if not 40k period.) How on earth can you claim that anything contained within is invalid?

I said its not that valid. for every case of daemon princes since there is no word of possession. I mean I'm not tied to this idea, don't care if someone cites more lore saying I'm wrong. Plus its in the first book so its 8 years, plus ‘Cyrion was possessed he was never a daemon prince, Talos refused daemonhood and saw that Kruze refused daemonhood because he thought he'd be possessed though the Dark Prince said that wasn't the case and Caleb was possessed after dying in the warp, I can't find anything on a possessed daemon prince in the omnibus.

It's a little something called "artistic licence"... and has been a part of Black Library - and pretty much all fiction writing since... well, forever.

 Anfauglir wrote:
It's a little something called "artistic licence"... and has been a part of Black Library - and pretty much all fiction writing since... well, forever.

Which is why I asked whether this is new lore or just ignorance of the lore.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

 Anfauglir wrote:
It's a little something called "artistic licence"... and has been a part of Black Library - and pretty much all fiction writing since... well, forever.

Which is why I asked whether this is new lore or just ignorance of the lore.

Well seeing as you are the self-appointed authority on this I really don't think any answer would suffice.

 Grimtuff wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

 Anfauglir wrote:
It's a little something called "artistic licence"... and has been a part of Black Library - and pretty much all fiction writing since... well, forever.

Which is why I asked whether this is new lore or just ignorance of the lore.

Well seeing as you are the self-appointed authority on this I really don't think any answer would suffice.

Not really, I admitted I'm wrong so I don't understand how I can appoint myself on the authority of this matter and also I wouldn't admit I'm wrong If I didn't accept answers lol You however have serious issues if you pretend to read books you haven't.

That must have really been some fething hell of a fever dream to imagine buying that book and reading it on my breaks at work...

 Grimtuff wrote:
That must have really been some fething hell of a fever dream to imagine buying that book and reading it on my breaks at work...

Seeing that you can't answer questions on it, especially pivotal and memorable moments in the book shows that you did't read it. The only one you are convincing is yourself lol If you weren't being an ass I wouldn't have embarrassed yoy in showing that you didn't actually read the book. That you keep denying, shows that it bothers you and you don't want to be seen as pretending to read it which, means if you had read it you'd have answered the questions.