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I mean it's crazy that people are saying the Castallan doesn't need a points hike! The thing is bonkers, and comes in about 50pts more than a Crusader, cheaper than a Lord of Skulls, etc.

Yes access to CP farms make it much nastier, due to rotate ion shields, but that's the only out-of-the-ordinary CP demand this thing makes.

It's also dominating all tournaments at the moment. I get that people have dropped big money on a model, but we all have, just on different models is all. Game balance trumps personal attachment to uber-builds.


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It'll also help with internal balance, maybe giving people a reason to go Valiant instead, which is nice.

Tastyfish wrote:
I think the fact that with Cawl's Wrath, they can almost one shot a Shadowsword (or knock an expected 22 wounds off one, leading it to shoot back on a 6+) if they get the first turn without using any CP or traits.


If the Shadowsword shoots first, it knocks off an expected 15.6 wounds - only knocking the knight down one damage band. With Ionbulwark and RIS, that drops to 7.8 wounds. Not enough to reduce the Knight's returning firepower.

Even if it gets lucky and does more damage, with wrath of the machine spirit you're still going to get hit by an undamaged Castellan.

Anything that can cripple a Shadowsword on an average shot without using stratagems, having just been hit by said Shadowsword, should probably cost more than just 100pts over the tank.

Yup. Especially when a Shadowsword is meant to be a hunter for these kind of units.

 SHUPPET wrote:

Tastyfish wrote:
I think the fact that with Cawl's Wrath, they can almost one shot a Shadowsword (or knock an expected 22 wounds off one, leading it to shoot back on a 6+) if they get the first turn without using any CP or traits.


If the Shadowsword shoots first, it knocks off an expected 15.6 wounds - only knocking the knight down one damage band. With Ionbulwark and RIS, that drops to 7.8 wounds. Not enough to reduce the Knight's returning firepower.

Even if it gets lucky and does more damage, with wrath of the machine spirit you're still going to get hit by an undamaged Castellan.

Anything that can cripple a Shadowsword on an average shot without using stratagems, having just been hit by said Shadowsword, should probably cost more than just 100pts over the tank.

Yup. Especially when a Shadowsword is meant to be a hunter for these kind of units.

And with the fact that the Shadowsword is OP, is even worse how powerfull the Castellan is. (The Castellan is so OP in fact that people has forgotten how before it came out, the Shadowsword had his place as the king of broken super heavies, and now you have people that sais the shadowsword is fine or even weak)

I'm safe. I won a Valiant in a tournament, and he has been perfoming very well for me. People normally don't know how to react to it. And the relic flamer that repeats to wound rolls... pfff. He eats Dark Eldar vehicles alive. And if they try to charge it? Oh boy.

The harpoon is very "Go big or go home". You don't do anything with it in the whole game or you pop vehicles left and right.

The Castellan is undercosted that is beyond doubt to most people, unfortunately it does become another level when you stack relics and warlord traits and strategums with unlimited CP but the same goes for anything with unlimited CP.
It is unfortunate that GW has basically alignment locked the dominus class knights but then again they have done that with a number of other codex's already. It's a feature of 8th edition that is probably not going anywhere any time soon.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

When has GW raised points in any FAQs? I thought that was Chapter Approved's job.

They changed the Storm Shield cost in a FAQ for Dark Angels and Black Templars before their respective 5th Ed. codexes, IIRC.

 Excommunicatus wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

When has GW raised points in any FAQs? I thought that was Chapter Approved's job.

They changed the Storm Shield cost in a FAQ for Dark Angels and Black Templars before their respective 5th Ed. codexes, IIRC.

There were actually several points adjustments in the big Spring FAQ. I would expect a few more in the upcoming one certainly!

Edit:

Just checked and there are 16 or 17 unit point adjustments in the Big FAQ. (Sly Marble is one and I'm not sure if that's an adjustment, or just publishing the points because he wasn't in the codex!).

ballzonya wrote:
I heard a rumor that the castellan is going up to over 700 points in the new faq. How mad would you be that a 200 dollar (Cdn) model got nerfered so hard because of command point spams. I play pure Knights no gaurd battalion and it bothers me.

This is GW, they will push the points into "wtf?" territory and nerf the CP batteries, at some point they will bring it back down when they want to sell more of them.

I have not actually gone against a Castellan yet, but my only real fear is that allied detachments will get messed up, just started a Death Guard + Nurgle Daemons army, would HATE if they nerfed the interactions of allied forces.

DudleyGrim wrote:
I have not actually gone against a Castellan yet, but my only real fear is that allied detachments will get messed up, just started a Death Guard + Nurgle Daemons army, would HATE if they nerfed the interactions of allied forces.

We're expecting something in all honesty.

I HIGHLY doubt they will stop allying at all. Most probably it will be some restrictions on either sharing CP between armies or how CP are generated for mixed armies.

But we really don't know yet!

I think they need a price hike. It really is that good, and removing CP farm won't stop it from being an absolute terror at its current price.

I just hope my precious Valiant doesn't get whacked because it shares the hull. I love my meme harpoon...

StarHunter25 wrote:
I just hope my precious Valiant doesn't get whacked because it shares the hull. I love my meme harpoon...

Nah, it is just the castellen that is the issue, valiant is just dandy.

I think their might be a conflation of 2 problems. CP farms, and Maybe the Castellan cost.

I'd prefer they fix one at a time. Fix the CP farm, and then see how OP it is, and if needed fix the Cost.

StarHunter25 wrote:
I just hope my precious Valiant doesn't get whacked because it shares the hull. I love my meme harpoon...

The Vailiant is pretty much the perfect comparison of how much better than Castellan is for its points. The Valiant is super fun mind you, but what you get over it for a song is pretty ridiculous.

I do think the 3CP for shields might be a bit expensive with a proper cost, but we'll have to wait and see what all changes.

MistaGav wrote:
The Castellan is only good because of a mix of the Cawls Wrath relic, Raven Stratagem/House trait, WLTs and then access to easy CP aka, the CP farm. Take some of those away instead and suddenly it's not so hot.

A castellan is only 100 points more than a fully decked out crusader and has about double the firepower and 4+ wounds. It clearly needs to be more than that. Lets also focus on this part too. Crusaders are REALLY good.


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Reemule wrote:
I think their might be a conflation of 2 problems. CP farms, and Maybe the Castellan cost.

I'd prefer they fix one at a time. Fix the CP farm, and then see how OP it is, and if needed fix the Cost.

I play it without CP farm. It is OP without CP farm. It kills 3 units a turn pretty consistently.


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 LunarSol wrote:

StarHunter25 wrote:
I just hope my precious Valiant doesn't get whacked because it shares the hull. I love my meme harpoon...

The Vailiant is pretty much the perfect comparison of how much better than Castellan is for its points. The Valiant is super fun mind you, but what you get over it for a song is pretty ridiculous.

I do think the 3CP for shields might be a bit expensive with a proper cost, but we'll have to wait and see what all changes.

Valiant might actually be over-costed.

 Xenomancers wrote:

MistaGav wrote:
The Castellan is only good because of a mix of the Cawls Wrath relic, Raven Stratagem/House trait, WLTs and then access to easy CP aka, the CP farm. Take some of those away instead and suddenly it's not so hot.

A castellan is only 100 points more than a fully decked out crusader and has about double the firepower and 4+ wounds. It clearly needs to be more than that. Lets also focus on this part too. Crusaders are REALLY good.


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Reemule wrote:
I think their might be a conflation of 2 problems. CP farms, and Maybe the Castellan cost.

I'd prefer they fix one at a time. Fix the CP farm, and then see how OP it is, and if needed fix the Cost.

I play it without CP farm. It is OP without CP farm. It kills 3 units a turn pretty consistently.

Crusaders are fairly meh to be honest. I would say they need a points reduction (as the RFB also does in general).

I agree with fixing one at a time. My Castellan, in a recent game, did literally 0 damage to another Imperial Knight in 2 rounds of shooting. Not the norm, I know, but it goes to show the thing isn't just bonkers beyond belief.

The Valiant is appropriately costed/slightly over costed till you bring in his relic. Of course, Cawl's Wrath does the same thing to the Castellan.

Crusader is not meh. LOL. Give it them melta cannon. Save 30 points get a better gun.

In 1 game. I 1 shoot a shadowsword with volcano lance and sheildbreaker missle - 1 shot a command russ with cawls wrath - and killed a hellhound with the autocannons. Didn't even get to fire my 4 melta guns which could have 1 shot something else. The thing has absolutely too much firepower in combination with being practically impossible to kill in 1 turn.

There's no way the Castellan will be pointed over 660. GW wants you to be able to field 3 dominus in a 2k game. If CP farm is fixed the castellan is at a decent point cost already.

The RFBC is pretty grossly overcosted. The Thermal Cannon is also a tad pricey. This seems to be the primary issue with the Questor in general.

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 LunarSol wrote:
The RFBC is pretty grossly overcosted. The Thermal Cannon is also a tad pricey. This seems to be the primary issue with the Questor in general.

Nether is that bad when you subtract the wasted 30 points you'd be spending on a CC weapon which is basically always going to be trumped by your stomp attacks. The fist is great for deathgrip but you can only use that once per turn and gallants do that better.

Reemule wrote:
I think their might be a conflation of 2 problems. CP farms, and Maybe the Castellan cost.

I'd prefer they fix one at a time. Fix the CP farm, and then see how OP it is, and if needed fix the Cost.

Yeah, sounds like you're conflating the Castellans strength to be all that of the CP farm. It's not hard to recognise the problems of the Castellan on its own, seperating the two isn't some impossible challenge that we have to play through another year of Castellans to uncover.

 Xenomancers wrote:
Crusader is not meh. LOL. Give it them melta cannon. Save 30 points get a better gun.

In 1 game. I 1 shoot a shadowsword with volcano lance and sheildbreaker missle - 1 shot a command russ with cawls wrath - and killed a hellhound with the autocannons. Didn't even get to fire my 4 melta guns which could have 1 shot something else. The thing has absolutely too much firepower in combination with being practically impossible to kill in 1 turn.

I was referring to both Thermal and RFB when saying Crusaders were meh. There is a reason you didn't see much of them competitively. They're overpriced. The Chaos double Avenger is probably the closest to balanced.

Your Castellan examples are not very good. All of those vehicles lack invulnerable saves, which is why you could kill them. They're all on the fragile 'glass-cannon' side of things and you could kill them as easily or almost as easily with equivalent points or less of Slamguinus, Custodes Bikes, Earthshakers or even Grey Knight Hammernators. It doesn't say much you blew those up with 600ish points.

Audustum wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Crusader is not meh. LOL. Give it them melta cannon. Save 30 points get a better gun.

In 1 game. I 1 shoot a shadowsword with volcano lance and sheildbreaker missle - 1 shot a command russ with cawls wrath - and killed a hellhound with the autocannons. Didn't even get to fire my 4 melta guns which could have 1 shot something else. The thing has absolutely too much firepower in combination with being practically impossible to kill in 1 turn.

I was referring to both Thermal and RFB when saying Crusaders were meh. There is a reason you didn't see much of them competitively. They're overpriced. The Chaos double Avenger is probably the closest to balanced.

Your Castellan examples are not very good. All of those vehicles lack invulnerable saves, which is why you could kill them. They're all on the fragile 'glass-cannon' side of things and you could kill them as easily or almost as easily with equivalent points or less of Slamguinus, Custodes Bikes, Earthshakers or even Grey Knight Hammernators. It doesn't say much you blew those up with 600ish points.

Every single unit I listed is a highly competitive model lol - and this actually happend. You don't see crusaders because Castellan is OP - kind of like you didn't see infantry squads when conscripts were 3 points - doesn't mean infantry at 4 points isn't also really good.. That is what this thread is about. Crusader is borderline OP itself. As your warlord it has a 3++ save to shooting for 1 CP a turn. It just reliably kills 2 units a turn instead of 3. Lets not forget... Endless furry is absolutely amazing.

It's also clear to basically everyone that slamquinius is on the same level of OP as the castellan. In fact - I am pretty sure slamguinious is the most OP unit in the game right now.

Executive Summary of Below: Get that OP model out quick, it is only a matter of time till a nerf, nothing is forever, you should know this.

Since it is possible to mix and match so many armies, all units especially those that generate CP's would be under the microscope.
One could argue that since the units are available to all of us, it is fair right?
Well, with GW actually appearing to care about balance, you can guarantee it is a matter of time until the "broken" unit/model of the day will get a touch-up.

If you MUST get the latest and greatest hotness, slap that model together and get 3 colours on it and call it a day, time's a wastin.
I have a Castellen on it's way with assembly and I may only get the one done, I see some guy at my hobby shop fielding 3 of them in completely shiny silver with purple armor plate block painting and a brown base, no shade (gets some from his opponents however).

I fully paint my stuff with decals and everything so I have learned to let things go if I cannot get the darn thing fielded in under a month or two.

 Talizvar wrote:
Executive Summary of Below: Get that OP model out quick, it is only a matter of time till a nerf, nothing is forever, you should know this.

Ah, The League of Legends method then.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 Talizvar wrote:
Executive Summary of Below: Get that OP model out quick, it is only a matter of time till a nerf, nothing is forever, you should know this.

Ah, The League of Legends method then.

Not quite that bad. If this was LOL.

riot would buff the Gallant.

 SHUPPET wrote:

Reemule wrote:
I think their might be a conflation of 2 problems. CP farms, and Maybe the Castellan cost.

I'd prefer they fix one at a time. Fix the CP farm, and then see how OP it is, and if needed fix the Cost.

Yeah, sounds like you're conflating the Castellans strength to be all that of the CP farm. It's not hard to recognise the problems of the Castellan on its own, seperating the two isn't some impossible challenge that we have to play through another year of Castellans to uncover.

Humm I thought when you Edited you would include all your anecdotal evidence on how awesome the Castellen is sans CP farms.

The Castellan is game breaking. Soup or no. And because the Super Heavy Auxiliary exists, you cannot make the case that Knights weren't designed to complement full armies. Claiming "but soup" for a faction that was designed with soup in mind, seems silly.

Guard also need a nerf, but that's a different topic.

 Excommunicatus wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

When has GW raised points in any FAQs? I thought that was Chapter Approved's job.

They changed the Storm Shield cost in a FAQ for Dark Angels and Black Templars before their respective 5th Ed. codexes, IIRC.

Yes, but that is hardly relevant to how they use CA and FAQs in 8th edition tthough. I apparently missed some points changes in FAQs that did happen though, which is more relevant.

Reemule wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:

Reemule wrote:
I think their might be a conflation of 2 problems. CP farms, and Maybe the Castellan cost.

I'd prefer they fix one at a time. Fix the CP farm, and then see how OP it is, and if needed fix the Cost.

Yeah, sounds like you're conflating the Castellans strength to be all that of the CP farm. It's not hard to recognise the problems of the Castellan on its own, seperating the two isn't some impossible challenge that we have to play through another year of Castellans to uncover.

Humm I thought when you Edited you would include all your anecdotal evidence on how awesome the Castellen is sans CP farms.

Nope just edited my spelling within seconds of posting. Not sure why I'd include anecdotal evidence for a statement that neither hinged off it or referenced it, in fact the point of my post was literally that we didn't need such anecdotes to draw rational conclusions, but okay.