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 Xenomancers wrote:

 Stux wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

tneva82 wrote:


It's pretty hard to buff relic bolt pistol equal to 2d6 S8 AP-4 D2 which can be buffed to S9/D3 I would say...So guess which one you spend CP on?

Whilst I agree that that relics are not equal and should cost points, this is still kinda false comparison. The cost of bringing as space marine character with a bolt pistol or a stormbolter is not the same as a cost of bringing a Castellan with plasma. You have already paid way more points for that Castellan plasma weapon before any relics are being bought.

100% this. It's an unfair comparison.

That said, many of the Infantry weapon replacement relics in many of the Codexes are just bad choices, so something could do with changing there.

It's not an unfair comparison though. They cost the exact same CP. What is unfair is the additional power you are getting out of a weapon for the same cost. For a relic storm bolter you are getting like maybe 1 more average damage - for a weapon like cawls wrath - you are getting probably 5 more average damage. Pulled these numbers out of the air but just trying to make my point.

Cawls wrath is probably 5x more efficient in terms of CP spent to total power received.

I do agree with that, honestly.

There seemed to be some people suggesting that comparing the guns to each other without taking into account the points paid for them is fair. That was what I was contesting.

Even taking into account the price paid, there is still an imbalance though, totally on board there!

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
He isn't wrong though. We already know people would complain about such 'unfluffy' combos. Just look at 6th.

People complain about Guard and Marines as an unfluffy combo. People complain.

That said, I'd rather not ally Xenos factions with other factions. Partially its because its less fluffy, but primarily because they represent more unique aesthetics. I'm much rather see Ork stuff supported on the level of Eldar than Orks become a subcomponent of the Chaos faction. I've always thought they are probably the second most iconic aspect of 40k after marines.

 Stux wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Stux wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

tneva82 wrote:


It's pretty hard to buff relic bolt pistol equal to 2d6 S8 AP-4 D2 which can be buffed to S9/D3 I would say...So guess which one you spend CP on?

Whilst I agree that that relics are not equal and should cost points, this is still kinda false comparison. The cost of bringing as space marine character with a bolt pistol or a stormbolter is not the same as a cost of bringing a Castellan with plasma. You have already paid way more points for that Castellan plasma weapon before any relics are being bought.

100% this. It's an unfair comparison.

That said, many of the Infantry weapon replacement relics in many of the Codexes are just bad choices, so something could do with changing there.

It's not an unfair comparison though. They cost the exact same CP. What is unfair is the additional power you are getting out of a weapon for the same cost. For a relic storm bolter you are getting like maybe 1 more average damage - for a weapon like cawls wrath - you are getting probably 5 more average damage. Pulled these numbers out of the air but just trying to make my point.

Cawls wrath is probably 5x more efficient in terms of CP spent to total power received.

I do agree with that, honestly.

There seemed to be some people suggesting that comparing the guns to each other without taking into account the points paid for them is fair. That was what I was contesting.

Even taking into account the price paid, there is still an imbalance though, totally on board there!

Alright - so what is the solution? Make the knights Relics 2/5 CP respectively?

 LunarSol wrote:

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
He isn't wrong though. We already know people would complain about such 'unfluffy' combos. Just look at 6th.

People complain about Guard and Marines as an unfluffy combo. People complain.

That said, I'd rather not ally Xenos factions with other factions. Partially its because its less fluffy, but primarily because they represent more unique aesthetics. I'm much rather see Ork stuff supported on the level of Eldar than Orks become a subcomponent of the Chaos faction. I've always thought they are probably the second most iconic aspect of 40k after marines.

It would be best if they had done that - we would have had lots of extra stuff for many factions - sadly all they wanted to do was have slightly different Marines - or even worse - Super Wolfy Wolf Wolf Marines.

I posted on the previous page what I would do:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/330/763918.page#10167546

Basically I wouldn't have relic weapons just be better weapons. They need a utility effect instead.

Knight relic guns don't need that, they're good enough as is. But infantry level ones I don't think there's any point just souping up.

I'm not against pts for relics either though. But I don't think it would help in making people take the current relic weapons, they are all very underwhelming.

 Stux wrote:
I posted on the previous page what I would do:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/330/763918.page#10167546

Basically I wouldn't have relic weapons just be better weapons. They need a utility effect instead.

Knight relic guns don't need that, they're good enough as is. But infantry level ones I don't think there's any point just souping up.

I'm not against pts for relics either though. But I don't think it would help in making people take the current relic weapons, they are all very underwhelming.

Or they can just make Relics cost points again. That would be a lot easier. I'm PRETTY sure we as a forum can decide how much more Cawls Wrath is worth compared to the regular Plasma weapon.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Stux wrote:
I posted on the previous page what I would do:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/330/763918.page#10167546

Basically I wouldn't have relic weapons just be better weapons. They need a utility effect instead.

Knight relic guns don't need that, they're good enough as is. But infantry level ones I don't think there's any point just souping up.

I'm not against pts for relics either though. But I don't think it would help in making people take the current relic weapons, they are all very underwhelming.

Or they can just make Relics cost points again. That would be a lot easier. I'm PRETTY sure we as a forum can decide how much more Cawls Wrath is worth compared to the regular Plasma weapon.

I don't doubt that. I still think a lot of the relic weapons would be crap, just because their effects are so minimal, however you point them. So why not talk about how we can fix that too?

Points are just another stat on an item. Making Relics cost points really doesn't change anything other than which ones are efficient and which ones are not, which is already the deciding factor for which one to take.

That is true, but a super efficient free relict is always going to be less game breaking then a super efficient relic you still have to pay some points for.

Unless we are talking about absoluts, there are degrees to how good or how much influence a single item can be.

Yeah - they should just cost points. I am on board with that now.

 Stux wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Stux wrote:
I posted on the previous page what I would do:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/330/763918.page#10167546

Basically I wouldn't have relic weapons just be better weapons. They need a utility effect instead.

Knight relic guns don't need that, they're good enough as is. But infantry level ones I don't think there's any point just souping up.

I'm not against pts for relics either though. But I don't think it would help in making people take the current relic weapons, they are all very underwhelming.

Or they can just make Relics cost points again. That would be a lot easier. I'm PRETTY sure we as a forum can decide how much more Cawls Wrath is worth compared to the regular Plasma weapon.

I don't doubt that. I still think a lot of the relic weapons would be crap, just because their effects are so minimal, however you point them. So why not talk about how we can fix that too?

I would actually say that, functionality wise, this edition is pretty good for weapon relics because of the AP system this edition making less weapons useless once you bump into a Marine. Old style AP4? Heck no.

The issue is those relics now all have the same cost. Even if we assume CP can no longer be shared or anything, Cawls Wrath isn't a weapon that should be free in any circumstance.

The other issue is ACTUALLY how you're limited to one relic per generic character. All the special characters have their own special weapons typically and then have some bonus effect on top for what is usually not much of a price increase. Yet at the same time most of those characters don't get used for one reason or another. It wouldn't be game breaking for some Captain to be packing the Crusaders Helm and the Shield Eternal at once AS LONG as they pay the appropriate price for that equipment.

This edition has been built from the ground up with the concept of limiting stacking effects, and allowing only one relic per model is one of the effects of this design. This way you can have powerful relics without having the problem of models just taking them all and going back to herohammer.

Spoletta wrote:
This edition has been built from the ground up with the concept of limiting stacking effects, and allowing only one relic per model is one of the effects of this design. This way you can have powerful relics without having the problem of models just taking them all and going back to herohammer.

Except the issue with "Herohammer" was always the same few broken Characters. It's broken units that are the problem, when once again you guys blame something else.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Stux wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Stux wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

tneva82 wrote:


It's pretty hard to buff relic bolt pistol equal to 2d6 S8 AP-4 D2 which can be buffed to S9/D3 I would say...So guess which one you spend CP on?

Whilst I agree that that relics are not equal and should cost points, this is still kinda false comparison. The cost of bringing as space marine character with a bolt pistol or a stormbolter is not the same as a cost of bringing a Castellan with plasma. You have already paid way more points for that Castellan plasma weapon before any relics are being bought.

100% this. It's an unfair comparison.

That said, many of the Infantry weapon replacement relics in many of the Codexes are just bad choices, so something could do with changing there.

It's not an unfair comparison though. They cost the exact same CP. What is unfair is the additional power you are getting out of a weapon for the same cost. For a relic storm bolter you are getting like maybe 1 more average damage - for a weapon like cawls wrath - you are getting probably 5 more average damage. Pulled these numbers out of the air but just trying to make my point.

Cawls wrath is probably 5x more efficient in terms of CP spent to total power received.

I do agree with that, honestly.

There seemed to be some people suggesting that comparing the guns to each other without taking into account the points paid for them is fair. That was what I was contesting.

Even taking into account the price paid, there is still an imbalance though, totally on board there!

Alright - so what is the solution? Make the knights Relics 2/5 CP respectively?

This is more another issue driven by CP not so much the relic it's self. Knights paying 170 points of model for 1CP should be getting something better relic wise for that 1CP than Guard paying down in the 20 points per CP.

Now yes being able to spend those 20 point CP on strategums designed to be powered using 170 point CP is why the costs all seem jacked up. In points spent it would be the equivalent of 7 or 8 IG relics.

As expected, no nerf to the Castellan's points.

Reemule wrote:
As expected, no nerf to the Castellan's points.

Because points changes happen in Chapter Approved.

Reemule wrote:
As expected, no nerf to the Castellan's points.

Lol they literally said they have a bunch of changes to point costs in the Chapter Approved and didn't want to put them in the FAQ.

ballzonya wrote:
I heard a rumor that the castellan is going up to over 700 points in the new faq. How mad would you be that a 200 dollar (Cdn) model got nerfered so hard because of command point spams. I play pure Knights no gaurd battalion and it bothers me.

The original poster. Then go read all the pages of is going to, isn't going to.

It didn't.

The last FAQ had points changes.

 Xenomancers wrote:
The last FAQ had points changes.

Where? Do you mean the last FAQ to Chapter Approved?

Reemule wrote:

ballzonya wrote:
I heard a rumor that the castellan is going up to over 700 points in the new faq. How mad would you be that a 200 dollar (Cdn) model got nerfered so hard because of command point spams. I play pure Knights no gaurd battalion and it bothers me.

The original poster. Then go read all the pages of is going to, isn't going to.

It didn't.

I think the least relevant part of his post was the specifier of whether it's point goes up in the FAQ or the CA right after it. Enjoy your pedantry I guess.

April FAQ has point changes (if necessary). September one doesn't because the next CA is close.