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I love Crisis Suits, but often I find that they cost way too much for what they can do.

Space Marine Bikers. On paper they look like an excellent tactical option - melee, shooting and a massive movement that should let you get to exactly where the enemy line is weakest. I love that playstyle but it doesn't really exist in 40k - at least not in 8th edition. The closest you can get is deepstrike and counter deep strike and these guys are best at generally little other than running into enemy line and hoping the enemy doesn't just move past them.

NH Gunsmith wrote:Rhinos. Dear lord do I love my four Rhinos.

Is there something wrong with Rhinos? They're pretty much on par with all the other transport options really, as far as I can tell. They're a metal box that moves.

Bach wrote:

Table wrote:

 Bach wrote:
For me, it's the Maulerfiend. Never has such a cool model been so worthless on the tabletop.

Im interested as to why you say this. Not only have I never heard a complaint about it before but I use two as well. Sure they are not the hardiest unit around but for the price you get a good deal. However perhaps in your meta this is different, elaborate if you would, im honestly curious.

They almost never get to do anything in 8E. It's relatively easy to knock down a profile to where it moves like molasses, can be avoid completely by faster armies, and needs a stragem for any reliability in CC, all for the low, low price of 172 pts.

It's barely playable. If rules remain unchanged, it needs like a 30-50 point reduction, similar to what was done with the Defiler. If not, they need to give it better rules to actually do what it's designed to do because right now, there are easily better choices to fill that role if you play any flavor of CSM.

Consider the new Armiger running at around 170 points with the sword and melta and it fills the same basic role. Same wounds, save, # of attacks, and Cc damage, but a lot faster, better weapon skill, and a decent ranged melta gun. The armiger is definitely an example of power creep but it gives little incentive to take a Maulerfiend aside from looks.

Tbh, daemon engines are in a bit of a bad spot. The 5++ and the wound regen hasn't felt to be worth the trade-off with Ws/Bs this edition.

Pretty sure this is either that you have a weird meta in your local games, or you're just playing the maulerfiend badly or without any other backup.

Maulerfiends aren't the most competitive option in the world, but they're far from being bad.

I mean you're comparing it with an Armiger, in an edition where all of the Knight options are pretty much overpowered. Which is why a lot of people don't like playing with them in friendly matches.

But this thread is about units that are truly terrible on the tabletop. If you compare say... Raptors or Warp Talons (or tacs, or deff dreads, or killa kanz, etc etc) with the Maulerfiend, you'll hopefully realise that the 'fiends are actually pretty decent. They're at least average (though I'd rate them as slightly better than average). It's just that the Knight lineup is terribly priced, and needs to go up by a lot.

I mean my maulerfiend is 150pts, if you drop it by 50pts that would end up as a 100 point model. Not saying that I would complain, I'd love that. I'd take 3 in every list. But so would every other Chaos player, because it would be HIDEOUSLY underpriced.

Rhinos (and many transports in general) are over costed and kinda not as needed as they used to be. Especially with them losing firing points and a lot of units being faster than previous editions, tracked transports are in a pretty bad place.

Drop pods are also not worth as much as they used to be either.

HoundsofDemos wrote:
Rhinos (and many transports in general) are over costed and kinda not as needed as they used to be. Especially with them losing firing points and a lot of units being faster than previous editions, tracked transports are in a pretty bad place.

Drop pods are also not worth as much as they used to be either.

Oh man do I wish Space Marine drop pods were worth taking. And that I could put Primaris in them.

Niiru wrote:

NH Gunsmith wrote:Rhinos. Dear lord do I love my four Rhinos.

Is there something wrong with Rhinos? They're pretty much on par with all the other transport options really, as far as I can tell. They're a metal box that moves.

I like Rhinos, but I'm paying 87+ pts for a metal box that has the tactical value of dead rock after the marines deploy from it, can't transport any of the new primaris units that actually like to be up close and personal (The fact that most lists will have to fill them with Tac marines or assault marines really hurts their viability), and isn't any more survivable that other faction's transport.

It also has the same problems as the bikes - there is so much deep strike/counter deep strike that a jetpack for your favorite oldmarine is probably the cheaper and better option. Why put a metal box that is almost always in LOS turn one and risk it blowing up before you get a turn when you can just deep strike and ignore the problem?

You see this a lot in how Rhinos show up in tourney lists. They are almost always just escorting vulnerable characters up the middle of the board. The two exceptions I know of are World Eater rhino rush and DeathWatch Frag Cannon rush, both of which pretty much focus on winning the roll off and being steamrolled if they lose.

My main issue is that there are a lot of units which have never really been popular, and of these - some suck, but because they've never been popular, they're unlikely to get any attention.

I was on the verge of ordering three Eldar Support Platforms...before glancing at the rules. They're beyond atrocious - weaker and more garbage than comparable units. So bad I'd have a really hard time justifying them. However it's a unit no one ever talks about, so it's unlikely they'll get a points reduction or a fix to their weapons.

^Rhino is not 87+ points.

Plus their tactical value is far, far from zero after models have deployed. Great LOS blockers, wall builders, overwatch soakers and tie-up-unit models. Man, Rhinos are fun!

Q: What's the best way to silence a 300-whatever-point Telemon Dreadnought?
A: Charge a Rhino into it!!

 Insectum7 wrote:
^Rhino is not 87+ points.

Plus their tactical value is far, far from zero after models have deployed. Great LOS blockers, wall builders, overwatch soakers and tie-up-unit models. Man, Rhinos are fun!

Q: What's the best way to silence a 300-whatever-point Telemon Dreadnought?
A: Charge a Rhino into it!!

Compared to previous editions Rhinos are pretty bad. That combined with the fact that the thing you can put in it has never been weaker means it's in a pretty bad place.

 ChargerIIC wrote:

I like Rhinos, but I'm paying 87+ pts for a metal box that has the tactical value of dead rock after the marines deploy from it, can't transport any of the new primaris units that actually like to be up close and personal (The fact that most lists will have to fill them with Tac marines or assault marines really hurts their viability), and isn't any more survivable that other faction's transport.

I think you're conflating 'tactical value' with 'lethality' too much here. There's boxloads of tactical value in a box that is entirely ignored because it already delivered something. It can eat overwatch, block movement, block LoS, and harass all day long because nobody will target it.

There's value in there above a dead rock Not much, and it's situational, but it's there.

Have to agree. Rhinos are at least annoying and compared to last edition they're actually pretty durable. And I like my two combibolters - they don't do much against anything in power armor, but you can annoy some Dark Eldar or Tau with them .

Does the Despoiler still count?
Other then that regular CSM just like tacticals, albeit the "better"* stratagems do help them. Though really terrible they aren't, unlike the helldrake, which i don't own.

Other than that my militia units for R&H and their accomanying Vanquishers and Chimeras. Vanquishers for obvious reasons, and the chimera for beeing often 2x-3x as expensive as the squad delivered from it.

*(funnily it's always the same few stratagems, that make half the regular csm codex tick and ofcourse the same faction buffs generally that make csm worth fielding.)

Terminators (Standard / Indomitus pattern terminators). The passion that went into their design is equaled only by the apathy the rules department have shown them since for the last 2 decades.

 thegreatchimp wrote:
Terminators (Standard / Indomitus pattern terminators). The passion that went into their design is equaled only by the apathy the rules department have shown them since for the last 2 decades.

I thought i forgot something. ...
Then again ever since 8th i did not field a single termintaor squad, even though they are probably my best looking models (paintwise)

Niiru wrote:

NH Gunsmith wrote:Rhinos. Dear lord do I love my four Rhinos.

Is there something wrong with Rhinos? They're pretty much on par with all the other transport options really, as far as I can tell. They're a metal box that moves.

Bach wrote:

Table wrote:

 Bach wrote:
For me, it's the Maulerfiend. Never has such a cool model been so worthless on the tabletop.

Im interested as to why you say this. Not only have I never heard a complaint about it before but I use two as well. Sure they are not the hardiest unit around but for the price you get a good deal. However perhaps in your meta this is different, elaborate if you would, im honestly curious.

They almost never get to do anything in 8E. It's relatively easy to knock down a profile to where it moves like molasses, can be avoid completely by faster armies, and needs a stragem for any reliability in CC, all for the low, low price of 172 pts.

It's barely playable. If rules remain unchanged, it needs like a 30-50 point reduction, similar to what was done with the Defiler. If not, they need to give it better rules to actually do what it's designed to do because right now, there are easily better choices to fill that role if you play any flavor of CSM.

Consider the new Armiger running at around 170 points with the sword and melta and it fills the same basic role. Same wounds, save, # of attacks, and Cc damage, but a lot faster, better weapon skill, and a decent ranged melta gun. The armiger is definitely an example of power creep but it gives little incentive to take a Maulerfiend aside from looks.

Tbh, daemon engines are in a bit of a bad spot. The 5++ and the wound regen hasn't felt to be worth the trade-off with Ws/Bs this edition.

Pretty sure this is either that you have a weird meta in your local games, or you're just playing the maulerfiend badly or without any other backup.

Maulerfiends aren't the most competitive option in the world, but they're far from being bad.

I mean you're comparing it with an Armiger, in an edition where all of the Knight options are pretty much overpowered. Which is why a lot of people don't like playing with them in friendly matches.

But this thread is about units that are truly terrible on the tabletop. If you compare say... Raptors or Warp Talons (or tacs, or deff dreads, or killa kanz, etc etc) with the Maulerfiend, you'll hopefully realise that the 'fiends are actually pretty decent. They're at least average (though I'd rate them as slightly better than average). It's just that the Knight lineup is terribly priced, and needs to go up by a lot.

I mean my maulerfiend is 150pts, if you drop it by 50pts that would end up as a 100 point model. Not saying that I would complain, I'd love that. I'd take 3 in every list. But so would every other Chaos player, because it would be HIDEOUSLY underpriced.

This is probably just a difference in meta. I don't know of anyone I play with that would consider the armiger a deal breaker in a friendly game. As for playing Maulerfiends well, the only remote thing they do well is maybe buy your better units an extra turn from 1-3shots of anti tank and in my opinion, that's not worth 150+ points. Plague drones can do that better and for a lot cheaper. As for support/strategems, they're usually toast before any of that comes into play. They're so bad they make Defilers look good. However, if what they do works for you then bravo, keep rocking them. If that's what you have to play with, I get it, but if you've tried others things that fill the role that the Maulerfiend fills, then it's easy to see just how disappointing they really are.

Yeh, armigers aren't OP in any way. They're decent and fun, nothing more. They're like dreadnoughts but not bad.

Warglaives are kind of a not-glass cannon in that they're really dangerous if you ignore them but they aren't that difficult to kill.

Helverins are kind of similar. They CAN be dangerous, but that -1 AP really leaves it up to needing bad luck on the opponent's side. Helverins are good at chipping the last handful of wounds off something your lascannons have done most of the work on. They're good at tagging T6 guard vehicles like basilisks(long range, good movement to get LOS on them hiding), acceptable against T7, bad against T8. Generally I'll fail 1 save a turn to a helverin on a Leman Russ. And my Leman Russ costs less points and will usually drop a Helverin to half or lower if I'm a little lucky.

Warp Talons. Love the concept of half daemon hunters from the warp, but man are they awful and expensive.

 Bach wrote:

Table wrote:

 Bach wrote:
For me, it's the Maulerfiend. Never has such a cool model been so worthless on the tabletop.

Im interested as to why you say this. Not only have I never heard a complaint about it before but I use two as well. Sure they are not the hardiest unit around but for the price you get a good deal. However perhaps in your meta this is different, elaborate if you would, im honestly curious.

They almost never get to do anything in 8E. It's relatively easy to knock down a profile to where it moves like molasses, can be avoid completely by faster armies, and needs a stragem for any reliability in CC, all for the low, low price of 172 pts.

It's barely playable. If rules remain unchanged, it needs like a 30-50 point reduction, similar to what was done with the Defiler. If not, they need to give it better rules to actually do what it's designed to do because right now, there are easily better choices to fill that role if you play any flavor of CSM.

Consider the new Armiger running at around 170 points with the sword and melta and it fills the same basic role. Same wounds, save, # of attacks, and Cc damage, but a lot faster, better weapon skill, and a decent ranged melta gun. The armiger is definitely an example of power creep but it gives little incentive to take a Maulerfiend aside from looks.

Tbh, daemon engines are in a bit of a bad spot. The 5++ and the wound regen hasn't felt to be worth the trade-off with Ws/Bs this edition.

Fair enough. Thanks for elaborating.

HoundsofDemos wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
^Rhino is not 87+ points.

Plus their tactical value is far, far from zero after models have deployed. Great LOS blockers, wall builders, overwatch soakers and tie-up-unit models. Man, Rhinos are fun!

Q: What's the best way to silence a 300-whatever-point Telemon Dreadnought?
A: Charge a Rhino into it!!

Compared to previous editions Rhinos are pretty bad. That combined with the fact that the thing you can put in it has never been weaker means it's in a pretty bad place.

Whaaaat?! Rhinos are awesome! Even at 70+ points they are the bee's knees bro!

I love my scarab occult terminators. But they are sooooooo over coated.

 xeen wrote:
I love my scarab occult terminators. But they are sooooooo over coated.

For the price paid, all terminators should have 4 wounds.

 Oguhmek wrote:
Stompa. Love the model, I have two. 900 points a piece. Ahahahahaha haha ha.

Ditto. 2. At least I can paint them in different colours for ork codex(I hope they give klan traits even for lone stompas ala eldars...Otherwise that requires 3000 pts detachment )

And give me your stompas! 900 pts? I pay nearly 1k ;-)

Sentinels. They're just not worth the points considering how little firepower they bring, but I always liked them. At least they make cheap slot fillers though.

 ZergSmasher wrote:
With Tau, it's probably my Stormsurge and my Ghostkeel. They were both incredibly good in 7th, but a bit lackluster in 8th. The thing that keeps the Stormsurge down in 8th is the lack of the <BATTLESUIT> keyword, meaning it can't pass wounds off to drones and has to just hope it can roll 4++ saves well. Everyone tells me to run more Riptides instead, but I stubbornly insist on bringing out the Stormsurge. The Ghostkeel just costs too many points and its special stealth drones are too easy to just delete, but I love the model and thus run it sometimes. It has done good work for me at times, too.

I learned about this first hand. Haha we were playing a 1250 with my guard, and everything the Tau had, including a broadside, a stormsurge, and many many markerlights, and my hellhammer survived around 4 rounds of shooting before dying. In the meantime, though, I would've killed the stormsurge so many times over if it hadn't been for the 4++. It's actually rly rly good.

 chrispy1991 wrote:
Sentinels. They're just not worth the points considering how little firepower they bring, but I always liked them. At least they make cheap slot fillers though.

Armored or Scout sentinels?
Scouts seem adequate albeit very glasscannonlike.

 chrispy1991 wrote:
Sentinels. They're just not worth the points considering how little firepower they bring, but I always liked them. At least they make cheap slot fillers though.

Hmm, not sure I agree here. Especially in ITC, where Scout Sentinels are really fairly good for scoring points with things like recon.

In friendlier games, armoured Tallarn Sentinels are actually pretty fun and (mostly) reliable.

I really like the Power Lifter Sentinels. Tho i wouldnt take them to GT's, just a cool idea for them.

Lemondish wrote:

 chrispy1991 wrote:
Sentinels. They're just not worth the points considering how little firepower they bring, but I always liked them. At least they make cheap slot fillers though.

Hmm, not sure I agree here. Especially in ITC, where Scout Sentinels are really fairly good for scoring points with things like recon.

In friendlier games, armoured Tallarn Sentinels are actually pretty fun and (mostly) reliable.

In a tallarn list, for the price of 2 armored sentinels you can squeeze in a basilisk or hellhound, which both offer the same or more total wounds, same or better toughness, faster speed, and far superior firepower.

Scout sentinels lost most of their utility when turn 1 deep striking outside your deployment zone ceased to be a thing. Their recon ability doesn't make up for how easily they are destroyed. If I want a fast objective taker I'll just move and advance a squad of guardsmen twice in a single turn with an order.

Sentinels are a sub-optimal pick for IG players no matter how you slice it. I've only ever once been able to accomplish anything meaningful with them and I have used them in a lot of games.

The tyranid haruspex. i really love how brutal the maw looks, and his devouring- self healing concept but he almost never makes back his points.
We play with a lot of terrain so he is difficult to move around the table ,as he needs a huge space to pass between buildings/barricades and so. He sometimes ends up clearing the spaces he can reach easy and is a wasted unit for the rest of the battle because he needs to many turns to run his way back to go through another gap. But my forward battle planning is also a bit to blame for this..

and as mentioned above, the stompa ( and 90% of the ork codex) but this argument will soon be invalid i hope..

 Bach wrote:


This is probably just a difference in meta. I don't know of anyone I play with that would consider the armiger a deal breaker in a friendly game. As for playing Maulerfiends well, the only remote thing they do well is maybe buy your better units an extra turn from 1-3shots of anti tank and in my opinion, that's not worth 150+ points. Plague drones can do that better and for a lot cheaper. As for support/strategems, they're usually toast before any of that comes into play. They're so bad they make Defilers look good. However, if what they do works for you then bravo, keep rocking them. If that's what you have to play with, I get it, but if you've tried others things that fill the role that the Maulerfiend fills, then it's easy to see just how disappointing they really are.

Not so much Armigers, they're not so bad, but the Knights are generally seen as a bit... unfriendly to play. Armigers though are alright, though still a little underpriced. Or rather, standard dreadnought/helbrute options are overpriced.

However I've never lost a Maulerfiend to 1-3 shots of anti tank. Your opponents must have magic dice!

On average it takes about 12 lascannon shots to take down a maulerfiend, and if my opponent is fielding 12 lascannons and they're all using their whole turn taking out a single maulerfiend then thats what...? ...500 points of anti-tank being used to take out 150 points of monster? Sounds alright to me.

There might be other weapons that take it out easier... I'm guessing that Knights have something that can 1-shot a maulerfiend, but that just brings me back to the original point that Knights don't really fit well into standard 40k games.

Still not saying that the Mauler is competitive, just putting some perspective on things. Still don't know how you managed to lose one to a single anti-tank shot, let alone 3.


Edit: Just to add to this so I don't sound totally argumentative, that I do also own an Warglaive Armiger (currently unbuilt) that I plan to run alongside my Maulerfiend. Both together will be a pretty nasty distraction I expect.