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I play Tyranids, so for many things i'm spoiled in that almost whatever i take is good but:
1) I always loved hormagaunts, they are what made me take up tyranids and 40K. In 8th though, they are finally a good model to play, so i don't think that it is good for this thread.
2) Warriors. The same, in 8th you can play them without gimping yourself, but here's the catch... i also bring the prime! Now, that is an overcosted model!
3) Maleceptor. He sort of does it's work, but even if he didn't i wouldn't leave him home because he is daddy's brainy bug.
4) Walkrant. Yes, paying 43 more points to make it winged may be the best choice, but i don't like the winged model. Also i never bring more than one, because more than one tyrant at that scale is murdering the fluff. I think that only in the devastation of Baal there were multiple tyrants, but that was one of the largest conflicts in 40k history (about 20.000 space marines killed).
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/09/23 08:06:34
Is this "bad" in terms of what the individual thinks or believes.
Or are we talking "bad" in terms of what the community labels something and demands you acknowledge how bad it is?
ValentineGames wrote: Is this "bad" in terms of what the individual thinks or believes.
Or are we talking "bad" in terms of what the community labels something and demands you acknowledge how bad it is?
eaither or really, although yeah sometimes the pronouncements of a unit as bad coming from down on high tend to be silly.
Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two
Elbows wrote: I definitely feel like Space Marine tanks are pretty poor since they didn't benefit from the shoot-turret-twice rule, etc...and their cost is up there (granted they benefit from BS 3+)
The only tank that can shoot twice is the Leman Russ, and that's because they recognized that it's guns were terrible, but rather than fixing that problem they patched it for the Leman Russ. I think that the issue of having trash guns should be addressed, and the double-fire rule removed.
I think the Predator is fine, though it could do with a cost reduction. The Vindicator is awful, and needs a complete change to it's gun stats. The whirlwind needs more shots so it's actually effective at killing light infantry.
Guardsmen, hear me! Cadia may lie in ruin, but her proud people do not! For each brother and sister who gave their lives to Him as martyrs, we will reap a vengeance fiftyfold! Cadia may be no more, but will never be forgotten; our foes shall tremble in fear at the name, for their doom shall come from the barrels of Cadian guns, fired by Cadian hands! Forward, for vengeance and retribution, in His name and the names of our fallen comrades!
Veteran squad with three Flamers and a Heavy Flamer run with an officer inside a Chimera. Not exactly points efficient, but absolutely wild when you get in range.
That, and I want to run Ratlings. I just need to finally get the models...
You say Fiery Crash! I say Dynamic Entry!
*Increases Game Point Limit by 100*: Tau get two Crisis Suits and a Firewarrior. Imperial Guard get two infantry companies, artillery support, and APCs.
Spoletta wrote: I play Tyranids, so for many things i'm spoiled in that almost whatever i take is good but:
1) I always loved hormagaunts, they are what made me take up tyranids and 40K. In 8th though, they are finally a good model to play, so i don't think that it is good for this thread.
2) Warriors. The same, in 8th you can play them without gimping yourself, but here's the catch... i also bring the prime! Now, that is an overcosted model!
3) Maleceptor. He sort of does it's work, but even if he didn't i wouldn't leave him home because he is daddy's brainy bug.
4) Walkrant. Yes, paying 43 more points to make it winged may be the best choice, but i don't like the winged model. Also i never bring more than one, because more than one tyrant at that scale is murdering the fluff. I think that only in the devastation of Baal there were multiple tyrants, but that was one of the largest conflicts in 40k history (about 20.000 space marines killed).
100% with you on the walkrant. I love that model, and only really want to bring one of them to a fight. I'm really not a fan of the flyrant model either. It lacks the gravitas of the foot model.
I also like Warriors and the Prime, and yeah, the Prime is worth it if you're bringing Warriors, but It's a pretty lackluster unit itself.
Nearly 700pts, She's massive, hard to hide and fragile
I disagree, at least in a mono slaanesh army, she pulls her weight quite well. drop her, kill pretty much anything in 1 round and she forces the enemy to put all of their firepower into her, and if they don't kill her shes going to be deleting anything she touches. Basically forces them to pick killing her, or ignoring the 100 daemonettes putting out like 300 attacks speeding towards them.
That partly chimes with my experience, only in my experience She gets every heavy weapon in the opposing army in the face and dies turn 1.
Her point cost is way, way, way too high for a distraction unit that is only there to give your Daemonettes (which can be hidden relatively easily anyway) a single turn of respite. IMO. If you consider what you could have brought instead, Her value drops even more. Again, IMO.
Elbows wrote: I definitely feel like Space Marine tanks are pretty poor since they didn't benefit from the shoot-turret-twice rule, etc...and their cost is up there (granted they benefit from BS 3+)
The only tank that can shoot twice is the Leman Russ, and that's because they recognized that it's guns were terrible, but rather than fixing that problem they patched it for the Leman Russ. I think that the issue of having trash guns should be addressed, and the double-fire rule removed.
I think the Predator is fine, though it could do with a cost reduction. The Vindicator is awful, and needs a complete change to it's gun stats. The whirlwind needs more shots so it's actually effective at killing light infantry.
(wink) And the Fire Prism... I do think the Predator is "okay", but Marines stand zero chance in a tank vs. tank engagement vs. Guard mainly because of the double-turret shooting thing. (and higher toughness, and a few more wounds...and a bonus sponson weapon normally...and tank orders if a Commander is present...). Whather the Predator gets a small discount, or the Russ tanks are revised, I think a small balance would be nice. I love Space Marine tanks and I take them for fun, but it's tough to justify vs. a Guard army featuring lots of armour.
PS: Playing CSM vs. Guard "Vengeance for Cadia" is beyond lethal when you've got an Executioner with three heavy bolters (re-rolling hits and wounds on 49 shots...)
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/09/23 20:07:55
Elbows wrote: I definitely feel like Space Marine tanks are pretty poor since they didn't benefit from the shoot-turret-twice rule, etc...and their cost is up there (granted they benefit from BS 3+)
The only tank that can shoot twice is the Leman Russ, and that's because they recognized that it's guns were terrible, but rather than fixing that problem they patched it for the Leman Russ. I think that the issue of having trash guns should be addressed, and the double-fire rule removed.
I think the Predator is fine, though it could do with a cost reduction. The Vindicator is awful, and needs a complete change to it's gun stats. The whirlwind needs more shots so it's actually effective at killing light infantry.
(wink) And the Fire Prism... I do think the Predator is "okay", but Marines stand zero chance in a tank vs. tank engagement vs. Guard mainly because of the double-turret shooting thing. (and higher toughness, and a few more wounds...and a bonus sponson weapon normally...and tank orders if a Commander is present...). Whather the Predator gets a small discount, or the Russ tanks are revised, I think a small balance would be nice. I love Space Marine tanks and I take them for fun, but it's tough to justify vs. a Guard army featuring lots of armour.
PS: Playing CSM vs. Guard "Vengeance for Cadia" is beyond lethal when you've got an Executioner with three heavy bolters (re-rolling hits and wounds on 49 shots...)
I think you're mistaking the Executioner with the Punisher. That or I'm not getting the right value out of my Plasma cannon.
Praying to get a game of 9th edition in before Summer.
Pretty much the entire Inquisition line is pretty bad right now. Which makes me said because even though they were a half assed faction in 7th, GW actually gave them rules that worked for them being a very small ally faction.
Elbows wrote: I definitely feel like Space Marine tanks are pretty poor since they didn't benefit from the shoot-turret-twice rule, etc...and their cost is up there (granted they benefit from BS 3+)
The only tank that can shoot twice is the Leman Russ, and that's because they recognized that it's guns were terrible, but rather than fixing that problem they patched it for the Leman Russ. I think that the issue of having trash guns should be addressed, and the double-fire rule removed.
I think the Predator is fine, though it could do with a cost reduction. The Vindicator is awful, and needs a complete change to it's gun stats. The whirlwind needs more shots so it's actually effective at killing light infantry.
(wink) And the Fire Prism... I do think the Predator is "okay", but Marines stand zero chance in a tank vs. tank engagement vs. Guard mainly because of the double-turret shooting thing. (and higher toughness, and a few more wounds...and a bonus sponson weapon normally...and tank orders if a Commander is present...). Whather the Predator gets a small discount, or the Russ tanks are revised, I think a small balance would be nice. I love Space Marine tanks and I take them for fun, but it's tough to justify vs. a Guard army featuring lots of armour.
PS: Playing CSM vs. Guard "Vengeance for Cadia" is beyond lethal when you've got an Executioner with three heavy bolters (re-rolling hits and wounds on 49 shots...)
Actually the marine tanks are often underestimated due to the stigma of not having a trait, but if you run the math a 125 point vindicator wins against a leman russ, even including a -1 to hit first turn for moving.Sure the vindicator is not a PBC, the difference between the two is obscenous, but for 2 lascannons on a T8 chassis, the vindicator has a cost decent enough that in non tourney games you can use it.
Elbows wrote: I definitely feel like Space Marine tanks are pretty poor since they didn't benefit from the shoot-turret-twice rule, etc...and their cost is up there (granted they benefit from BS 3+)
The only tank that can shoot twice is the Leman Russ, and that's because they recognized that it's guns were terrible, but rather than fixing that problem they patched it for the Leman Russ. I think that the issue of having trash guns should be addressed, and the double-fire rule removed.
I think the Predator is fine, though it could do with a cost reduction. The Vindicator is awful, and needs a complete change to it's gun stats. The whirlwind needs more shots so it's actually effective at killing light infantry.
(wink) And the Fire Prism... I do think the Predator is "okay", but Marines stand zero chance in a tank vs. tank engagement vs. Guard mainly because of the double-turret shooting thing. (and higher toughness, and a few more wounds...and a bonus sponson weapon normally...and tank orders if a Commander is present...). Whather the Predator gets a small discount, or the Russ tanks are revised, I think a small balance would be nice. I love Space Marine tanks and I take them for fun, but it's tough to justify vs. a Guard army featuring lots of armour.
PS: Playing CSM vs. Guard "Vengeance for Cadia" is beyond lethal when you've got an Executioner with three heavy bolters (re-rolling hits and wounds on 49 shots...)
Actually the marine tanks are often underestimated due to the stigma of not having a trait, but if you run the math a 125 point vindicator wins against a leman russ, even including a -1 to hit first turn for moving.Sure the vindicator is not a PBC, the difference between the two is obscenous, but for 2 lascannons on a T8 chassis, the vindicator has a cost decent enough that in non tourney games you can use it.
Honestly to problem lies with the deomlisher cannon itself, not the vindicator. Leman Russ demolishers are technically supperior to the Vindicator ones but suffer from the range. d3 is not a particulary huge ammount of shots and the price you pay for it is in my opinion off regardless of faction.
I also don't think that leman russes need a revisit rather bring the marine tanks in line. Mainly something that supports a fire and manouvre playstyle, like machine spirit.
Actually what about the Hellturkey, i just remembered that it exists atm at a pricepoint that is insane for a single weapon plattform that does not even get -1 to hit.
Generally i feel like all the potentiall hades autocannon plattforms would need to be looked at.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/09/24 08:37:01
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
Kias wrote: The Defiler has traditionally been my "bad" unit of choice, though it is actually pretty solid in 8th. If you go with the reaper autocannon and scourge, you get a solid 14 wound model with 3+/5++ that heals every turn and is decent at shooting and scary in CC for any multi-wound model for about 170 points. Also, the model itself is just imposing, like a little crab-knight waddling its way at the enemy. They tend to reliably draw fire, which is handy keeping squishier vehicles like the hell brute alive.
Though, if you want them to be above mediocre to get around that WS/BS 4, you need to spend some CP's on them for those sweet re-rolls, which can be rough on CSM that wants command points for so many other things.
Thousand Sons or Tzeentch Daemons makes it even better with it having the Daemon keyword meaning you can throw some Deamon keyworded buffs via psychic powers.
Honestly I feel like it might be one of the few perfectly balanced models in the game. It's exactly where it should be without breaking the game in any direction.
Hah! That is actually a very valid point. They have been garbage in previous editions, but now, I agree, it is probably what I think of as one of my most balanced units.
...
Actually what about the Hellturkey, i just remembered that it exists atm at a pricepoint that is insane for a single weapon plattform that does not even get -1 to hit.
Generally i feel like all the potentiall hades autocannon plattforms would need to be looked at.
Oh yeah, the Hades Autocannon is one of my biggest pet peeves in the Chaos arsenal. It is close to being good but just needs 1 more AP or a couple more shots. Even just a change to an Assault weapon would help so the Helldrake or Forgefiend can move with it. The forgefiend is actually pretty reasonably priced, but those wicked looking Hades Autocannon arms just fall short even with Daemonforge helping the shots connect and wound. The only niche they really have is hitting those units that end up with a 4+ invuln anyway so the AP doesn't matter, but they just don't quite put out enough shots even in those situations for the cost. I would almost always just rather have oblits for dps or a Defiler out for tanking.
And the Forgefiend just looks so cool too. I really hope they get some love. I would personally prefer a weight of fire solution as it looks like a unit that should be able to pump out non-stop shooting for days.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/09/24 15:05:57
Elbows wrote: I definitely feel like Space Marine tanks are pretty poor since they didn't benefit from the shoot-turret-twice rule, etc...and their cost is up there (granted they benefit from BS 3+)
The only tank that can shoot twice is the Leman Russ, and that's because they recognized that it's guns were terrible, but rather than fixing that problem they patched it for the Leman Russ. I think that the issue of having trash guns should be addressed, and the double-fire rule removed.
I think the Predator is fine, though it could do with a cost reduction. The Vindicator is awful, and needs a complete change to it's gun stats. The whirlwind needs more shots so it's actually effective at killing light infantry.
(wink) And the Fire Prism... I do think the Predator is "okay", but Marines stand zero chance in a tank vs. tank engagement vs. Guard mainly because of the double-turret shooting thing. (and higher toughness, and a few more wounds...and a bonus sponson weapon normally...and tank orders if a Commander is present...). Whather the Predator gets a small discount, or the Russ tanks are revised, I think a small balance would be nice. I love Space Marine tanks and I take them for fun, but it's tough to justify vs. a Guard army featuring lots of armour.
PS: Playing CSM vs. Guard "Vengeance for Cadia" is beyond lethal when you've got an Executioner with three heavy bolters (re-rolling hits and wounds on 49 shots...)
That's a Punisher. The Space Marines don't even necessarily have to beat the IG in an up-and-up tank battle, since tanks are the IG's whole thing, but they need to be able to adequately support Space Marine infantry.
Elbows wrote: I definitely feel like Space Marine tanks are pretty poor since they didn't benefit from the shoot-turret-twice rule, etc...and their cost is up there (granted they benefit from BS 3+)
The only tank that can shoot twice is the Leman Russ, and that's because they recognized that it's guns were terrible, but rather than fixing that problem they patched it for the Leman Russ. I think that the issue of having trash guns should be addressed, and the double-fire rule removed.
I think the Predator is fine, though it could do with a cost reduction. The Vindicator is awful, and needs a complete change to it's gun stats. The whirlwind needs more shots so it's actually effective at killing light infantry.
(wink) And the Fire Prism... I do think the Predator is "okay", but Marines stand zero chance in a tank vs. tank engagement vs. Guard mainly because of the double-turret shooting thing. (and higher toughness, and a few more wounds...and a bonus sponson weapon normally...and tank orders if a Commander is present...). Whather the Predator gets a small discount, or the Russ tanks are revised, I think a small balance would be nice. I love Space Marine tanks and I take them for fun, but it's tough to justify vs. a Guard army featuring lots of armour.
PS: Playing CSM vs. Guard "Vengeance for Cadia" is beyond lethal when you've got an Executioner with three heavy bolters (re-rolling hits and wounds on 49 shots...)
Actually the marine tanks are often underestimated due to the stigma of not having a trait, but if you run the math a 125 point vindicator wins against a leman russ, even including a -1 to hit first turn for moving.Sure the vindicator is not a PBC, the difference between the two is obscenous, but for 2 lascannons on a T8 chassis, the vindicator has a cost decent enough that in non tourney games you can use it.
Honestly to problem lies with the deomlisher cannon itself, not the vindicator. Leman Russ demolishers are technically supperior to the Vindicator ones but suffer from the range. d3 is not a particulary huge ammount of shots and the price you pay for it is in my opinion off regardless of faction.
I also don't think that leman russes need a revisit rather bring the marine tanks in line. Mainly something that supports a fire and manouvre playstyle, like machine spirit.
Actually what about the Hellturkey, i just remembered that it exists atm at a pricepoint that is insane for a single weapon plattform that does not even get -1 to hit.
Generally i feel like all the potentiall hades autocannon plattforms would need to be looked at.
Leman Russes do need a revisit, because they're at the top of a trickle down problem. If you try to correct the problems with the former 5" blast weapons, then the Leman Russ tanks and their fire-twice rule gets in your way. Also, a comprehensive vehicle re-work would necessarily include them.
The idea that turrets negate the -1 to hit from moving isn't a bad idea, though, which might give turreted tanks greater differentiation from assault guns, and give them a more active role in maneuver.
Elbows wrote: I definitely feel like Space Marine tanks are pretty poor since they didn't benefit from the shoot-turret-twice rule, etc...and their cost is up there (granted they benefit from BS 3+)
The only tank that can shoot twice is the Leman Russ, and that's because they recognized that it's guns were terrible, but rather than fixing that problem they patched it for the Leman Russ. I think that the issue of having trash guns should be addressed, and the double-fire rule removed.
I think the Predator is fine, though it could do with a cost reduction. The Vindicator is awful, and needs a complete change to it's gun stats. The whirlwind needs more shots so it's actually effective at killing light infantry.
(wink) And the Fire Prism... I do think the Predator is "okay", but Marines stand zero chance in a tank vs. tank engagement vs. Guard mainly because of the double-turret shooting thing. (and higher toughness, and a few more wounds...and a bonus sponson weapon normally...and tank orders if a Commander is present...). Whather the Predator gets a small discount, or the Russ tanks are revised, I think a small balance would be nice. I love Space Marine tanks and I take them for fun, but it's tough to justify vs. a Guard army featuring lots of armour.
PS: Playing CSM vs. Guard "Vengeance for Cadia" is beyond lethal when you've got an Executioner with three heavy bolters (re-rolling hits and wounds on 49 shots...)
Actually the marine tanks are often underestimated due to the stigma of not having a trait, but if you run the math a 125 point vindicator wins against a leman russ, even including a -1 to hit first turn for moving.Sure the vindicator is not a PBC, the difference between the two is obscenous, but for 2 lascannons on a T8 chassis, the vindicator has a cost decent enough that in non tourney games you can use it.
The thing with the Demolisher cannon is that it doesn't act like a giant demolition gun. I think a superior incarnation would be to have more shots with lower damage; it would retain AV and anti-structure effectiveness, with 2d6 @ D3, and would be effective at flattening elite units and taking a chunk out of light units, like a gun that fires a low velocity trashcan full of high explosives should be.
WIth the extraordinarily low shot output, it's not useful against infantry targets at all. And against vehicles, there's no advantage to being S10 [because GW decided that T6/7/8 for tanks was a better idea than T7/8/9].
Guardsmen, hear me! Cadia may lie in ruin, but her proud people do not! For each brother and sister who gave their lives to Him as martyrs, we will reap a vengeance fiftyfold! Cadia may be no more, but will never be forgotten; our foes shall tremble in fear at the name, for their doom shall come from the barrels of Cadian guns, fired by Cadian hands! Forward, for vengeance and retribution, in His name and the names of our fallen comrades!
Kias wrote: The Defiler has traditionally been my "bad" unit of choice, though it is actually pretty solid in 8th. If you go with the reaper autocannon and scourge, you get a solid 14 wound model with 3+/5++ that heals every turn and is decent at shooting and scary in CC for any multi-wound model for about 170 points. Also, the model itself is just imposing, like a little crab-knight waddling its way at the enemy. They tend to reliably draw fire, which is handy keeping squishier vehicles like the hell brute alive.
Though, if you want them to be above mediocre to get around that WS/BS 4, you need to spend some CP's on them for those sweet re-rolls, which can be rough on CSM that wants command points for so many other things.
Thousand Sons or Tzeentch Daemons makes it even better with it having the Daemon keyword meaning you can throw some Deamon keyworded buffs via psychic powers.
Honestly I feel like it might be one of the few perfectly balanced models in the game. It's exactly where it should be without breaking the game in any direction.
Hah! That is actually a very valid point. They have been garbage in previous editions, but now, I agree, it is probably what I think of as one of my most balanced units.
...
Actually what about the Hellturkey, i just remembered that it exists atm at a pricepoint that is insane for a single weapon plattform that does not even get -1 to hit.
Generally i feel like all the potentiall hades autocannon plattforms would need to be looked at.
Oh yeah, the Hades Autocannon is one of my biggest pet peeves in the Chaos arsenal. It is close to being good but just needs 1 more AP or a couple more shots. Even just a change to an Assault weapon would help so the Helldrake or Forgefiend can move with it. The forgefiend is actually pretty reasonably priced, but those wicked looking Hades Autocannon arms just fall short even with Daemonforge helping the shots connect and wound. The only niche they really have is hitting those units that end up with a 4+ invuln anyway so the AP doesn't matter, but they just don't quite put out enough shots even in those situations for the cost. I would almost always just rather have oblits for dps or a Defiler out for tanking.
And the Forgefiend just looks so cool too. I really hope they get some love. I would personally prefer a weight of fire solution as it looks like a unit that should be able to pump out non-stop shooting for days.
The hades autocannon needs to be on a bs3+ Plattform. Or a change from heavy to assult.
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
Storm guardians. I just love the idea of the models. Like to think them as "eldar militia" to be thrown at the enemy, even though it does not fit with the Eldar fluff very well. At least that's how I see them in my army.
I converted the models back in 5th edition and put them on shelf, where they stayed all the way until 8th edition. They are still not good at all, but still wield them every now and then. As a decent bonus they get couple of fusion guns.
People on the internet love to min-max and hyperbolise about how ‘this or that unit is so bad, if you take it you’ll lose’ when talking about something like a Manticore. The Fellblade is the only unit I have played that genuinely will lose you games.
If you take it and your opponent takes a Shadowsword, pray like mad for first turn. If you get it, you might be able to significantly damage the Shadowsword before your Fellblade goes up in a puff of smoke, or Mortal Wounds.
If your opponent goes first, or plays Tallarn, you basically get to say ‘Well I’m playing with a 944pt handicap, but your Shadowsword can’t shoot anything else first turn’. Playing with a Fellblade is 40k Hard Mode.
But god damn, it is the best looking kit Citadel makes, even before my conversion work on it, so I will keep fielding it!
