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In my example, the Maulerfiends role would be to distract on behalf of a more capable unit, let's say Magnus. So the 1-3 shots may have been aimed at Magnus but instead aimed at a maulerfiend. And that's really the most you can expect out of the unit, for now. The problem is, there are units that can do that for much cheaper or units, like an armiger, that are similarly priced and so much more capable at doing the same thing. It's just not a good time in 40k to be a CSM daemon engine. They are all suffering to some degree.
Maulerfiends are fun in fluffy games and run I them when teaching friends how to play 40k because the models are so awesome. I sometimes run them in pick up games too but when asked how competitive my list is, I simply answer " Dude, I'm running Maulerfiends," and then everyone is on the same page.
Going to sadlky hammer down on my pride and admit the Primaris Chaplain belongs on here. Space Marine Chaplains have some of the best sculpts in the faction and the new primaris one is the best so far. That being said, this guy is a melee booster in a non-melee faction, who personal melee weapon is terrible and whose melee boost is a to-hit boost, which is already the most common buff available to space marines.
I've been trying to make mine work since 3 months after 8th dropped. I finally admitted that he needs shelving last night as he once again wandered the battlefield, able to do little else but block character targeting for a Primaris Watch Captain.
Bender wrote:* Realise that despite the way people talk, this is not a professional sport played by demi gods, but rather a game of toy soldiers played by tired, inebriated human beings.
ChargerIIC wrote: Going to sadlky hammer down on my pride and admit the Primaris Chaplain belongs on here. Space Marine Chaplains have some of the best sculpts in the faction and the new primaris one is the best so far. That being said, this guy is a melee booster in a non-melee faction, who personal melee weapon is terrible and whose melee boost is a to-hit boost, which is already the most common buff available to space marines.
I've been trying to make mine work since 3 months after 8th dropped. I finally admitted that he needs shelving last night as he once again wandered the battlefield, able to do little else but block character targeting for a Primaris Watch Captain.
Yeah, Chaplains have a few problems:
-Chapter Masters do their job better
-They can't reroll hits in melee
-They can't give Black Templars psyker defense.
ChargerIIC wrote: Going to sadlky hammer down on my pride and admit the Primaris Chaplain belongs on here. Space Marine Chaplains have some of the best sculpts in the faction and the new primaris one is the best so far. That being said, this guy is a melee booster in a non-melee faction, who personal melee weapon is terrible and whose melee boost is a to-hit boost, which is already the most common buff available to space marines.
I've been trying to make mine work since 3 months after 8th dropped. I finally admitted that he needs shelving last night as he once again wandered the battlefield, able to do little else but block character targeting for a Primaris Watch Captain.
Yeah, Chaplains have a few problems:
-Chapter Masters do their job better
-They can't reroll hits in melee
-They can't give Black Templars psyker defense.
Maybe they should consider a differant approuch to chaplains in the next edition (assuming 9th is mostly an evolution of 8th) and have Chaplains grant a re-roll of armor saves.
Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two
ChargerIIC wrote: Going to sadlky hammer down on my pride and admit the Primaris Chaplain belongs on here. Space Marine Chaplains have some of the best sculpts in the faction and the new primaris one is the best so far. That being said, this guy is a melee booster in a non-melee faction, who personal melee weapon is terrible and whose melee boost is a to-hit boost, which is already the most common buff available to space marines.
I've been trying to make mine work since 3 months after 8th dropped. I finally admitted that he needs shelving last night as he once again wandered the battlefield, able to do little else but block character targeting for a Primaris Watch Captain.
Yeah, Chaplains have a few problems:
-Chapter Masters do their job better
-They can't reroll hits in melee
-They can't give Black Templars psyker defense.
Maybe they should consider a differant approuch to chaplains in the next edition (assuming 9th is mostly an evolution of 8th) and have Chaplains grant a re-roll of armor saves.
Or a 6+ feel no pain, much like a painboy.
Would make sense representing the ‘fervour and faith in the emperors will’ etc.
Would be pretty strong for a chaos force, though less good for vanilla marines as-is as they already have a trait that gives that I believe. But that can be changed. I think the chaplain giving it is fluffier.
Reroll on saves is not a bad idea, but would be much easier to be exploited with things like storm shields et al.
Maybe Chaplains could give a save against Mortal Wounds? Nothing says Zeal like taking the arm that was just blown off and beating heretics to death with it!
ClockworkZion wrote: Maybe Chaplains could give a save against Mortal Wounds? Nothing says Zeal like taking the arm that was just blown off and beating heretics to death with it!
that's pretty specific, I like some sort of save re-rolls as it's a general solid one that'll be useful in every game, and address some of the space marine durability complaints, and thematicly a chaplain reinforcing a group of marines moving up through hostile fire to capture a key objective feels right.
but let's try not to derail this thread... I'll start another in proposed rules..
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/09/21 01:44:31
Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two
thegreatchimp wrote: Terminators (Standard / Indomitus pattern terminators). The passion that went into their design is equaled only by the apathy the rules department have shown them since for the last 2 decades.
Of all the models to have that said about them... Terminators?
Terminators are awful looking. Between the dog-head helmets, the way they look all hunchback, and the way their head is sunken in directly between their shoulders, there's just no way for me to like them.
Of course, there's a lot worse in the Marine lineup, Inceptors and Centurions come to mind, so I can't say terminators are that bad, but they're not going to win a beauty pageant.
All in all, I think most heavy infantry tends to be a big miss in the model department. Like, "people, but bigger and chunkier" has a tendency to look really awful. The exceptions are, I think, Custodian Guard and Kataphrons. Custodian Guard are just better than Terminators in every way: their helmets don't look like dog heads and more like knights, their head is on top of their shoulders instead of between them, they're not hunchbacked, and the have generally far superior poses.
Kataphrons little tank chassis makes me like them. The upper part leaves something to be desired, but I'm sure if I played AdMech I could make something nice with them. Maybe the answer is Rapiers, though.
I like Rapiers, they're cool.
Back to models I think are worth having even if they aren't used:
Leman Russ Vanquishers. They're so cool. Fortunately, mine see play as normal Leman Russ Battle Tanks.
I also like Macharius Vanquishers and Destroyer Tank Hunters, but I don't have any, because while I like the models, they'd just sit on a shelf.
This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2018/09/21 04:43:54
Guardsmen, hear me! Cadia may lie in ruin, but her proud people do not! For each brother and sister who gave their lives to Him as martyrs, we will reap a vengeance fiftyfold! Cadia may be no more, but will never be forgotten; our foes shall tremble in fear at the name, for their doom shall come from the barrels of Cadian guns, fired by Cadian hands! Forward, for vengeance and retribution, in His name and the names of our fallen comrades!
I agree about how bad normal terminators look. But I must admit that I really love the aesthetic of Centurions. I understand the most people dislike the look of Centurions. But something about their design appeals to me. I wish they were better costed this edition. I always end up taking them out of a list because the their cost is ridiculous.
thegreatchimp wrote: Terminators (Standard / Indomitus pattern terminators). The passion that went into their design is equaled only by the apathy the rules department have shown them since for the last 2 decades.
Of all the models to have that said about them... Terminators?
Terminators are awful looking. Between the dog-head helmets, the way they look all hunchback, and the way their head is sunken in directly between their shoulders, there's just no way for me to like them.
Of course, there's a lot worse in the Marine lineup, Inceptors and Centurions come to mind, so I can't say terminators are that bad, but they're not going to win a beauty pageant.
All in all, I think most heavy infantry tends to be a big miss in the model department. Like, "people, but bigger and chunkier" has a tendency to look really awful. The exceptions are, I think, Custodian Guard and Kataphrons. Custodian Guard are just better than Terminators in every way: their helmets don't look like dog heads and more like knights, their head is on top of their shoulders instead of between them, they're not hunchbacked, and the have generally far superior poses.
Kataphrons little tank chassis makes me like them. The upper part leaves something to be desired, but I'm sure if I played AdMech I could make something nice with them. Maybe the answer is Rapiers, though.
I like Rapiers, they're cool.
Back to models I think are worth having even if they aren't used:
Leman Russ Vanquishers. They're so cool. Fortunately, mine see play as normal Leman Russ Battle Tanks.
I also like Macharius Vanquishers and Destroyer Tank Hunters, but I don't have any, because while I like the models, they'd just sit on a shelf.
No. You are wrong. Terminators look great.
Discussing taste is very useful.
ClockworkZion wrote: Maybe Chaplains could give a save against Mortal Wounds? Nothing says Zeal like taking the arm that was just blown off and beating heretics to death with it!
Personally I think Chaplains should give a fearless bubble and reroll charge bubbles.
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
ClockworkZion wrote: Maybe Chaplains could give a save against Mortal Wounds? Nothing says Zeal like taking the arm that was just blown off and beating heretics to death with it!
Personally I think Chaplains should give a fearless bubble and reroll charge bubbles.
If the dozens of threads about SM psychic powers and strategem have shown anything it's that the two things that individual marines don't face very often is 1) failing both of their ATSKNF rolls and 2) Being a viable target for anything mortal wound related.
The 6+ FNP would be good, but I'd rather have a reroll of CC wound rolls instead of the current CC toHit rolls. There isn't much in the SM codex that grants re-rolls to wound outside of lieutenants and it would help mitigate the STR4 AP0 melee attacks that most marines come equipped with.
Bender wrote:* Realise that despite the way people talk, this is not a professional sport played by demi gods, but rather a game of toy soldiers played by tired, inebriated human beings.
Would make sense representing the ‘fervour and faith in the emperors will’ etc.
Would be pretty strong for a chaos force, though less good for vanilla marines as-is as they already have a trait that gives that I believe. But that can be changed. I think the chaplain giving it is fluffier.
Reroll on saves is not a bad idea, but would be much easier to be exploited with things like storm shields et al.
I feel like a FNP roll should be the job of the Apothecary.
Would make sense representing the ‘fervour and faith in the emperors will’ etc.
Would be pretty strong for a chaos force, though less good for vanilla marines as-is as they already have a trait that gives that I believe. But that can be changed. I think the chaplain giving it is fluffier.
Reroll on saves is not a bad idea, but would be much easier to be exploited with things like storm shields et al.
I feel like a FNP roll should be the job of the Apothecary.
The Chaplain should be an offensive melee helper.
I'd say +1 S, +1 attack in combat.
+1 S would be a massive bonus I'd love to have. 6" of Ork smacking
Bender wrote:* Realise that despite the way people talk, this is not a professional sport played by demi gods, but rather a game of toy soldiers played by tired, inebriated human beings.
thegreatchimp wrote: Terminators (Standard / Indomitus pattern terminators). The passion that went into their design is equaled only by the apathy the rules department have shown them since for the last 2 decades.
Of all the models to have that said about them... Terminators?
Terminators are awful looking. Between the dog-head helmets, the way they look all hunchback, and the way their head is sunken in directly between their shoulders, there's just no way for me to like them.
Of course, there's a lot worse in the Marine lineup, Inceptors and Centurions come to mind, so I can't say terminators are that bad, but they're not going to win a beauty pageant.
All in all, I think most heavy infantry tends to be a big miss in the model department. Like, "people, but bigger and chunkier" has a tendency to look really awful. The exceptions are, I think, Custodian Guard and Kataphrons. Custodian Guard are just better than Terminators in every way: their helmets don't look like dog heads and more like knights, their head is on top of their shoulders instead of between them, they're not hunchbacked, and the have generally far superior poses.
Kataphrons little tank chassis makes me like them. The upper part leaves something to be desired, but I'm sure if I played AdMech I could make something nice with them. Maybe the answer is Rapiers, though.
I like Rapiers, they're cool.
Back to models I think are worth having even if they aren't used:
Leman Russ Vanquishers. They're so cool. Fortunately, mine see play as normal Leman Russ Battle Tanks.
I also like Macharius Vanquishers and Destroyer Tank Hunters, but I don't have any, because while I like the models, they'd just sit on a shelf.
No. You are wrong. Terminators look great.
Discussing taste is very useful.
Well, I'm curious, what makes them look good? I've heard that they're like the best models in the SM line from more than a few people, and I have to wonder if we're looking at the same dog-headed, hunchbacked, head-between-the-shoulders, Terminators.
It is my opinion that the best model in the Space Marine line is the Vindicator. That's a model that's really suffering from apathy in the rules department; the Demolisher Cannon just doesn't act or feel like a giant cannon that hurls slow, heavy shells full of explosives.
Guardsmen, hear me! Cadia may lie in ruin, but her proud people do not! For each brother and sister who gave their lives to Him as martyrs, we will reap a vengeance fiftyfold! Cadia may be no more, but will never be forgotten; our foes shall tremble in fear at the name, for their doom shall come from the barrels of Cadian guns, fired by Cadian hands! Forward, for vengeance and retribution, in His name and the names of our fallen comrades!
thegreatchimp wrote: Terminators (Standard / Indomitus pattern terminators). The passion that went into their design is equaled only by the apathy the rules department have shown them since for the last 2 decades.
Of all the models to have that said about them... Terminators?
Terminators are awful looking. Between the dog-head helmets, the way they look all hunchback, and the way their head is sunken in directly between their shoulders, there's just no way for me to like them.
Of course, there's a lot worse in the Marine lineup, Inceptors and Centurions come to mind, so I can't say terminators are that bad, but they're not going to win a beauty pageant.
All in all, I think most heavy infantry tends to be a big miss in the model department. Like, "people, but bigger and chunkier" has a tendency to look really awful. The exceptions are, I think, Custodian Guard and Kataphrons. Custodian Guard are just better than Terminators in every way: their helmets don't look like dog heads and more like knights, their head is on top of their shoulders instead of between them, they're not hunchbacked, and the have generally far superior poses.
Kataphrons little tank chassis makes me like them. The upper part leaves something to be desired, but I'm sure if I played AdMech I could make something nice with them. Maybe the answer is Rapiers, though.
I like Rapiers, they're cool.
Back to models I think are worth having even if they aren't used:
Leman Russ Vanquishers. They're so cool. Fortunately, mine see play as normal Leman Russ Battle Tanks.
I also like Macharius Vanquishers and Destroyer Tank Hunters, but I don't have any, because while I like the models, they'd just sit on a shelf.
No. You are wrong. Terminators look great.
Discussing taste is very useful.
Well, I'm curious, what makes them look good? I've heard that they're like the best models in the SM line from more than a few people, and I have to wonder if we're looking at the same dog-headed, hunchbacked, head-between-the-shoulders, Terminators.
It is my opinion that the best model in the Space Marine line is the Vindicator. That's a model that's really suffering from apathy in the rules department; the Demolisher Cannon just doesn't act or feel like a giant cannon that hurls slow, heavy shells full of explosives.
Aww. . . those poor Terminators.
Although I do think the current models are not the best. However the look they are meant to represent, the root design, is fantastic imo. I actually prefer the older metal models, or the metal Chaos Terminators, which look fantastic. I have a fantasy of modeling my own version and getting it 3D printed at some point.
I'm tempted to say the T'au Tidewall Shieldline because it is really cool, and really terrible in all possible ways -- it takes a detachment slot, breaks buffs, can't overwatch, and blows up at the worst possible time. However, I love my fusion Ghostkeel more. Sure, it can't hit the broad side of a barn but the model is SO fething cool...
I'm not going to say 8th edition ones just ones through the ages.
Bezerkers always played them
Banshees always played them
Celestines always played them
Kammandos always played them
Defilers always played them
Raveners always played them
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/09/22 01:21:21
BrianDavion wrote: Everyone's got a unit like this, it's called "bad" and suboptimal but you keep using it because to you it's part of your armies quirky charm. the mathhammer players keep telling you you suyck for taking it etc. but you just keep plunking it down..
For me it's the basic tactical marine, sure scouts might be a bit more efficant, but damnit, I feel wrong playing Marines without a squad of two of Tacs.
I play orkz so....basically any unit besides boyz and a couple of outliers like stormboyz and HQ units are considered bad. So I love my warbikers even though they are absolutely terrible, I love taking them along with some DeffKoptas which make Warbikes look appropriately priced
FunJohn wrote: I love Crisis Suits, but often I find that they cost way too much for what they can do.
I've been thinking abour this, and I think crisis suits are priced the way they are for two reasons.
1. An appropriately equipped crisis suit has the same firepower as a squad of stealth suits and can deep strike, bur costs less.
2. Command and Control Node. Crisis suits can be taken in large numbers, and hence benefit most from this stratagem. And OMG the amount of damane that a large squad of crisis suits does with Command Control Node activated is unbelievable. I have a squad of 7, equipped with a variety of weapons -- not specialized for any role in particular (five fusion blasters, some missile pods, burst cannons and so on) -- and they'll kill almost anything short of a knight (which they will cripple however), sometimes several anythings.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/09/22 18:22:02
The Defiler has traditionally been my "bad" unit of choice, though it is actually pretty solid in 8th. If you go with the reaper autocannon and scourge, you get a solid 14 wound model with 3+/5++ that heals every turn and is decent at shooting and scary in CC for any multi-wound model for about 170 points. Also, the model itself is just imposing, like a little crab-knight waddling its way at the enemy. They tend to reliably draw fire, which is handy keeping squishier vehicles like the hell brute alive.
Though, if you want them to be above mediocre to get around that WS/BS 4, you need to spend some CP's on them for those sweet re-rolls, which can be rough on CSM that wants command points for so many other things.
Kias wrote: The Defiler has traditionally been my "bad" unit of choice, though it is actually pretty solid in 8th. If you go with the reaper autocannon and scourge, you get a solid 14 wound model with 3+/5++ that heals every turn and is decent at shooting and scary in CC for any multi-wound model for about 170 points. Also, the model itself is just imposing, like a little crab-knight waddling its way at the enemy. They tend to reliably draw fire, which is handy keeping squishier vehicles like the hell brute alive.
Though, if you want them to be above mediocre to get around that WS/BS 4, you need to spend some CP's on them for those sweet re-rolls, which can be rough on CSM that wants command points for so many other things.
Thousand Sons or Tzeentch Daemons makes it even better with it having the Daemon keyword meaning you can throw some Deamon keyworded buffs via psychic powers.
Honestly I feel like it might be one of the few perfectly balanced models in the game. It's exactly where it should be without breaking the game in any direction.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/09/23 02:47:53
The Defiler (well, my vision of it) is on my to-do list when I can find the donor model cheap enough. It's one of those units you'd just toss Daemon Forge on most turns as well. It had a point reduction in the codex, and again in chapter approved to a quite reasonable level.
I definitely feel like Space Marine tanks are pretty poor since they didn't benefit from the shoot-turret-twice rule, etc...and their cost is up there (granted they benefit from BS 3+)
5500 points
6000 points 
Finished Forge World Elysian Army 
Alaitoc Eldar Warhost 
Finished Order of Our Martyred Lady - Sisters of Battle 
Finished Necromundian Imperial Guard Regiment 
