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Pretty much straight forward question. I know the answer is going to vary from group/store to group/store and it is illegal in tournaments. But would you be ok with a chaos player running Renegade Knights using the Imperial Knights codex with faction keyword changes? I ask because the codex provided is laughable and anemic. I know, that as a chaos player, that I should be used to getting the short end of the stick. And mostly I am. Anyhow, this is what it comes down to since the likely hood of GW pushing out a proper renegade codex or Dark Mech codex is slim to none.

What do you think?

I think I'd be ok with it, but if you have the same restrictions on loadout as Imperial Knights. No best of both worlds basically!

that depends... if they're attempting to run a duel gatling canon knight alongside death guard well using IK strats? yeah no...

if they just wanna run a pure knights army but their knights happen to be painted up chaosy? sure.

How the models are painted/styled isn't relevant for the rules.
If the player is playing pure knights, sure, just use the IK Codex.

If the renegade knights are played together with other Chaos factions, then you have a problem.

 Stephanius wrote:
If the renegade knights are played together with other Chaos factions, then you have a problem.

And he's asking how many are fine with doing that outside tournaments.

I'm in for a game. Provided he then uses codex as it is(barring keyword changes) and not try to get double avengers etc as well.

Yes, but you're not mixing your CPs.

I'd be happy to play against an Imperial Knights (or Astra Militarum, Adeptus Mechanicum or some other Imperial factions) and let the player swap IMPERIUM to CHAOS. Probably without using any sub-faction stratagems, special rules, etc, and I'd be more likely to let them do it if they'd modelled the army suitably.

I wouldn't care if it was a pure IK army, and wasn't allied and just followed all the IK rules. More points for having stuff modeled up right.

I think I'd be fine with it, although there might be funniness around spell casting or some other faction keyword oddities that I'd watch out for.

Sure. There are rules in the Rulebook for such a thing, are there not?

No CP for you.

I would say no. For Matched Play, there is a reason for keywords and that's because different factions have different rules.

In Narrative play, you can take a detachment for a full fat Imperial Knight datasheet, and use whatever model you want for it.

In Open Play, anything goes so why not.

In short, the rules allow you to do so in non-matched play already.

But then again going by what most of the site seems to think playing by the rules is the same as kicking puppies.

I probably would, though I think the Renegade Knight mini-dex is pretty fine as it is. Also a Knight or two alongside proper Chaos is far more interesting than another five-Knight army (yawn).

I would politely decline that game. If you want to do that kind of thing you can play narrative or open play where that is entirely supported by the rules. In matched play however there are rules and restrictions and they should be observed.

Interesting answers. Thank you all. Yes, it would be using the full codex. No double avengers.

Nope. You have the mini-dex from Renegade and that's set up specifically so that you don't get the "new" goodies but you get a bit more flexible setups.

 Kanluwen wrote:
Nope. You have the mini-dex from Renegade and that's set up specifically so that you don't get the "new" goodies but you get a bit more flexible setups.

Yes the mini dex was a nice thought. But it would have been better to get a real dex. Right now, and im sure some would argue due to the twin avengers, If I chose to field a full renegade army im taking a massive hit over the loyalists. The mini dex is fine for taking one or two in soup. But, perhaps im wrong. I have never heard of or seen a full renegade knight army. Maybe there is a reason for that.

No. Renegade knights already have the bonus of being able to take twin matching weapons. A lot of times this means facing 2 Gatling cannons and I don’t think a chaos knight with the relic Gatling cannon and a basic Gatling cannon was meant to be used.

 Generalstoner wrote:
No. Renegade knights already have the bonus of being able to take twin matching weapons. A lot of times this means facing 2 Gatling cannons and I don’t think a chaos knight with the relic Gatling cannon and a basic Gatling cannon was meant to be used.

Fair enough. Point taken.

If the Knight Player was running a pure Knights army (and they don't mix and match options from both books) I wouldn't mind at all - it functions exactly the same as an Imperial Knight army in that case, just with a different paint scheme.

If a friend wanted to run it for some casual games alongside their chaos, I wouldn't mind either - I know them well enough to know they won't pull out some nonsense chaos/imperial combo just to wipe me off the board.

I'd be hesitant about playing against someone I didn't know well if they did it alongside Chaos detachments and would definitely want to discuss it beforehand.

Since you seemed to be indicating it would not be an event game, sure.

All I’d want is a prior “hey I want to use a different codex for some units and run a normally illegal combo.” I’m willing to play against all-proxies for people testing before buying, skewed points games, funky scenarios, and practice games where people basically tell me what I’m bringing.

If there’s nothing on the line, I’ll do whatevs. All I expect is the courtesy to mention what you’re wanting from the game beforehand.

For a friendly game I'd have no problem with it. If it turned out you were doing it to take advantage of some totally broken combo then I would be highly unlikely to play against you again.

In matched play? HELL YES.

BrianDavion wrote:
that depends... if they're attempting to run a duel gatling canon knight alongside death guard well using IK strats? yeah no...

if they just wanna run a pure knights army but their knights happen to be painted up chaosy? sure.

Is there something that breaks if you allow the dual Gatling knight w/ Deathguard and IK strats?

 Stormonu wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
that depends... if they're attempting to run a duel gatling canon knight alongside death guard well using IK strats? yeah no...

if they just wanna run a pure knights army but their knights happen to be painted up chaosy? sure.

Is there something that breaks if you allow the dual Gatling knight w/ Deathguard and IK strats?

I just used that as an example. renegade knights are not the same army as imperial knights, their wargear options are differant, etc. I mean, let's turn this on a head... should chaos space marines be able to pick and choose from their stuff and the loyalist stuff depending on what they like?

BrianDavion wrote:

 Stormonu wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
that depends... if they're attempting to run a duel gatling canon knight alongside death guard well using IK strats? yeah no...

if they just wanna run a pure knights army but their knights happen to be painted up chaosy? sure.

Is there something that breaks if you allow the dual Gatling knight w/ Deathguard and IK strats?

I just used that as an example. renegade knights are not the same army as imperial knights, their wargear options are differant, etc. I mean, let's turn this on a head... should chaos space marines be able to pick and choose from their stuff and the loyalist stuff depending on what they like?

I don't see why not, the CSM started out as loyalists I don't understand why, for example, they don't have access to Drop Pods, Centurions or Razorbacks in their codex.

 Generalstoner wrote:
No. Renegade knights already have the bonus of being able to take twin matching weapons. A lot of times this means facing 2 Gatling cannons and I don’t think a chaos knight with the relic Gatling cannon and a basic Gatling cannon was meant to be used.

Ummmm...As he has already said he's not planning to combine the two codexes but to use just one so no relic avenger+gatling cannon.

Of course another way he could do is count as full imperial soup. His chaos marines as blood angels, cultist as IG for typical knight+BA+IG spam. You have more fun facing that?-)

(Addendum)

Likewise, if you're talking CSM using Loyalist stratagems and tactics - why not? They've had prior marine training why would they all of a sudden stop using strategies and tactics that have been trained to use and were successfully using to fight with? If anything, as beings of Chaos, seems they'd be more flexible to using old strategies that worked for them as well as being open to a few new ones.

(And I would also note you would never see me play as CSM or Daemons - just have no love for the armies).

Table wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
Nope. You have the mini-dex from Renegade and that's set up specifically so that you don't get the "new" goodies but you get a bit more flexible setups.

Yes the mini dex was a nice thought. But it would have been better to get a real dex. Right now, and im sure some would argue due to the twin avengers, If I chose to field a full renegade army im taking a massive hit over the loyalists. The mini dex is fine for taking one or two in soup. But, perhaps im wrong. I have never heard of or seen a full renegade knight army. Maybe there is a reason for that.

Probably because it also shouldn't be a thing.

That said....

If you had a bunch of chaosy knights, chaosy guardsmen, and chaosy space marines, and the whole army was using the Codex: Imperial Knights, Codex: Imperial Guard, and Codex: Adeptus Astartes, that would not draw objection. Using Codex: Imperial Knights alongside Codex: Chaos Space Marines would draw complaints.

I'm all for bending/fixing rules (hell, the version of 40K I play would be unrecognizable to most Dakka members), but for me it'd be simple.

A) If you run a bunch of spiky Knights equipped with wargear allowed in the Imperial Knight codex and you're simply running Imperial Knights but saying they're Chaos for a campaign/scenario, etc. Cool as tits. If I'm playing against your codex army I don't mind how spiky or Chaos-like your models are.

B) If you're running Imperial Knights codex but changing the keywords to <CHAOS> and allying them with Chaos units, models, and codices...probably no dice. You have Renegade Knight rules in existence for a reason.

 Elbows wrote:
I'm all for bending/fixing rules (hell, the version of 40K I play would be unrecognizable to most Dakka members), but for me it'd be simple.

A) If you run a bunch of spiky Knights equipped with wargear allowed in the Imperial Knight codex and you're simply running Imperial Knights but saying they're Chaos for a campaign/scenario, etc. Cool as tits. If I'm playing against your codex army I don't mind how spiky or Chaos-like your models are.

B) If you're running Imperial Knights codex but changing the keywords to <CHAOS> and allying them with Chaos units, models, and codices...probably no dice. You have Renegade Knight rules in existence for a reason.

The real irony with option B is that's likely a less advantageous combo than imperial knight with imperial allies.